German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Rendition

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Aikanaro
Posts: 1801
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:43 pm UTC
Location: Saint Louis, MO

German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Rendition

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:52 pm UTC

Spoiler:
MSNBC.com wrote:The European Court of Human Rights ruled Thursday in favor of a German man who claims he was mistaken for a terrorist, then kidnapped and tortured by the CIA as part of the controversial extraordinary-rendition program.

The court ordered that Khaled El-Masri should be paid about $78,000 in damages by Macedonia, the European country where he says he was captured before being taken to a secret prison in Afghanistan known as the "Salt Pit."

James Goldston, lead lawyer on the case and executive director of the New York-based Open Society Justice Initiative, told NBC News that the ruling was significant because it was the first time a court had established "beyond reasonable doubt" that what El-Masri was saying had happened.
He said that in light of the ruling the Obama administration should apologize to El-Masri, pay damages and launch a wide-ranging investigation into his case and others like it.



"Notably, the court found that the CIA’s treatment of Mr. El-Masri at the airport in Skopje, Macedonia in January 2004 amounted to torture. This judgment by the highest court in Europe represents an authoritative condemnation of some of the most objectionable tactics employed in the post-9/11 war on terror," Goldston said in a statement.

Macedonia's 'complete denial'
According to El-Masri, he was brutally interrogated at the CIA-run Afghan prison for four months after he was flown there from Macedonia.

The European court's ruling said El-Masri's account of his "alleged ordeal was very detailed, specific and consistent."

While Macedonia had issued a "complete denial," there was a "a wealth of compelling evidence supporting his [El-Masri's] allegations and rejecting the Government’s explanation as utterly untenable," it added.

The ruling said El-Masri’s account was supported by several factors including:

aviation and flight logs;
geological records of minor earthquakes he recalled during his detention in Afghanistan;
sketches he drew of the prison where he was held;
and scientific tests on his hair showing "he had spent time in a South Asian country and had been deprived of food for an extended period of time."

The ruling said the court "observes" that El-Masri was taken from his hotel in Skopje, Macedonia, to the city's airport where he was "beaten severely by several disguised men dressed in black."

"He was stripped and sodomized with an object. He was placed in a nappy and dressed in a dark blue short-sleeved tracksuit. Shackled and hooded, and subjected to total sensory deprivation, the applicant [El-Masri] was forcibly marched to a CIA aircraft … When on the plane, he was thrown to the floor, chained down and forcibly tranquillized," the ruling said.

"While in that position, the applicant was flown to Kabul (Afghanistan) via Baghdad," it added.

Read the court's full ruling (pdf)

Macedonian authorities said they would not comment until they are formally notified of the ruling, The Associated Press reported. Though the case focused on Macedonia, it drew broader attention because of how sensitive the CIA extraordinary renditions were for Europe.

They involved abducting and interrogating terror suspects without court sanction in the years following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the U.S., under former President George W. Bush.

A 2007 Council of Europe probe accused 14 European governments of permitting the CIA to run detention centers or carry out rendition flights between 2002 and 2005.

'Huge victory for justice'

The White House referred NBC News' request for comment on the European court's ruling to the National Security Council press office, which responded later Thursday.

"The United States government does not comment on what are alleged to be activities of the intelligence community," Caitlin Hayden, NSC deputy spokesperson told NBC in an email response.

She pointed to three Executive Orders issued by President Barack Obama on his second full day in office on U.S. detention, interrogation and transfer policies directing that detainees in all circumstances be "treated humanely," that CIA detention facilities be closed "expeditiously," and that transfer practices "do not result in the transfer of individuals to face torture. The United States government is implementing those recommendations."

Goldston, who argued the case before the court, told NBC News that the United States had never commented on the claims officially and attempts to get a U.S. court to hear El-Masri’s case had failed.

He said he hoped the European court’s decision would prompt action in the U.S.

"The Obama administration should now apologize and acknowledge what the court has found, and undertake a more sweeping, intensive inquiry that what has been done to date," Goldston said.

"It’s incumbent on the administration to do that," he said, adding that the U.S. should also pay compensation to El-Masri.

Jamil Dakwar, head of the human rights program at the American Civil Liberties Union, told the AP that the ruling was "a huge victory for justice and the rule of law."

He predicted "it will make it harder for the United States to continue burying its head in the sand" about accusations that its officials tortured suspects in the war on terrorism.

El-Masri was given a prison sentence in 2010 for assaulting the mayor of Neu-Ulm, Germany, and is due for release next year, Goldston said.

The court's rulings are binding on the 47 member states of the Council of Europe.

The Associated Press and NBC News' Kari Huus contributed to this report.


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012 ... ogram?lite

I think deep down everyone knew this was true. Be interesting to see the fallout. I hope someone gets hammered HARD for this. If an innocent man (hell, if ANYONE) has to be tortured for my safety, fuck it, it ain't worth it.
Dear xkcd,

On behalf of my religion, I'm sorry so many of us do dumb shit. Please forgive us.

Love, Aikanaro.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Heisenberg » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:45 pm UTC

Unfortunately, I doubt this will change anything. The US and Macedonian governments are still denying any involvement, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:05 pm UTC

I read this title as: "A German man is determined to become a victim of extraordinary rendition" and was quite confused for a while.

But this is good news. Especially since the so-called "European Court of Human Rights" is generally a court of rubber-stamping whatever new abuse governments think up for their people. So if they step in and say something about it, you can be sure it was really fucking egregiously bad.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Jesse » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:07 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I read this title as: "A German man is determined to become a victim of extraordinary rendition" and was quite confused for a while.

But this is good news. Especially since the so-called "European Court of Human Rights" is generally a court of rubber-stamping whatever new abuse governments think up for their people. So if they step in and say something about it, you can be sure it was really fucking egregiously bad.


Wait, what? The ECHR has been instrumental in smacking down the UK government's attempted abuses many a-time, most recently on trying to create a centralised DNA database of people suspected in crimes.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10269
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby addams » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:19 pm UTC

Big ships take a long time to turn?

Here we are twelve years later;
It is right and good the E.U. is considering the well being of the individual.

If a big ship takes a long time to turn; Then, how did the US go from protector of the individual to umm ? What are black sites? How long does it take to set one up?

Is the answer always; How much money do you have?

I am glad the international community is doing something. It seems like very little and it is very late.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
yurell
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:19 am UTC
Location: Australia!

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby yurell » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:31 pm UTC

$80k seems absurdly low for kidnap & torture, especially since these are countries who handle billions of dollars.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10269
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby addams » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:38 am UTC

yurell wrote:$80k seems absurdly low for kidnap & torture, especially since these are countries who handle billions of dollars.

It is not the money, Honey.
This, if it is true, sets a legal foundation for protections.

The way it was explained to me follows:
Each case that goes to court helps the next persons go to court with greater ease.
The cases are like bricks used to build a wall.

A ruling in favour of the individual is a big deal for all of us, I hope.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

BattleMoose
Posts: 1993
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:42 am UTC

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby BattleMoose » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:41 am UTC

I really really want people to be criminally convicted for this, really really do. Its just disgusting.

Choboman
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Choboman » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:11 pm UTC

Nobody in the US will be convicted for this. The US will continue to deny involvement, and doesn't recognize the European Court's authority over US citizens or agencies, so there's not much else the Court can do. The best you can hope for is that the publicity will push public opinion and make future abuses less likely, and also make other countries less willing to cooperate with these actions.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5933
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:22 pm UTC

I'll put this here as it's another rendition case - this time it's someone who was British, but had their British citizenship revoked due to 'extremist activities' around the same time they went missing, and then they ended up in New York on terrorism charges. The theory is that Britain might have revoked his citizenship to stop the problems of the US taking a British citizen without due process.

It will be interesting to see how this case develops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20833555
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:47 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I read this title as: "A German man is determined to become a victim of extraordinary rendition" and was quite confused for a while.


I also read it that way, and grammatically, that'd also be correct(and hilarious).

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10269
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby addams » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:54 am UTC

Angua wrote:I'll put this here as it's another rendition case - this time it's someone who was British, but had their British citizenship revoked due to 'extremist activities' around the same time they went missing, and then they ended up in New York on terrorism charges. The theory is that Britain might have revoked his citizenship to stop the problems of the US taking a British citizen without due process.

It will be interesting to see how this case develops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20833555

Umm. So these stories are punching through to mainstream media?
Good God! What are the secrets like?

I know first hand what some of the secrets are like.

No one wants the global bullies to attack. No one nation can stand up to the US. There was a bright idea. The international court. I, still, like the idea.

Laws are worthless if the law can not be enforced.
Laws that the people believe in need very little enforcement.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
rieschen
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:35 am UTC

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby rieschen » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:02 pm UTC

I wonder if there's any court the US answers to that can extend on this ruling, but it's good to see the ECtHR doing what it can.

It is right and good the E.U. is considering the well being of the individual.


The EU's Court of Justice deals with matters of the EU treaties (free trade, common debt policy etc.). This article references the ECtHR, which deals with matters of the European Convention on Human Rights and is independent from the EU.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10269
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby addams » Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:56 am UTC

The issues are moving into the hands of responsible adults.
There is not one thing that can be done to undo all the harm that has been done.

The courts may reaffirm the human rights of the individual. I hope the courts do that.
I read a great deal about human rights. One court will not hear a case until 10,000 have died.

That has always seemed a little late, to me.

This one story is in the mainstream news. What is still being hidden?

Did you hear what I heard?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

infernovia
Posts: 931
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:27 am UTC

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby infernovia » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:38 am UTC

Is addams a bot?
I can't really tell.

Anyway, sounds like everything is running the same as it always has, and I am sure this is not going to change anything. But the fallout will be interesting to watch.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10269
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: German determined to be victim of Extraordinary Renditio

Postby addams » Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

I'm not a bot.
That is what a bot would type.

Yes. Things are about the same as they were one hundred years ago.

The individual has a very short lifespan. Things are much improved over one thousand years ago.

There are people that love the idea of turning back the clock. Torture and public execution in every city is loudly suggested.
Every home defended from the both the government and the criminal with deadly force.

The courts may not be able to change anything about what the US does inside or outside its borders. Yet, the courts may help some individuals.

Men and women in the US are fine with turning back the clock; Not all, but many.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests