Shooting at CT Elementary School

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4518
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:48 pm UTC

27 people, including 18 children dead in a school shooting in Connecticut :cry: . Don't really know what else to say.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... ref=canada

Spoiler:
Authorities in Connecticut responded to a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown Friday morning, the local NBC station reports.

Police reported 27 deaths, including 18 dead children and others wounded, according to the Associated Press.

The one known shooter was 20 years old, carrying four weapons and wearing black clothing and a bullet proof vest. He is dead, authorities told ABC News. Police continue to investigate if there was a second shooter involved.

CLICK HERE FOR LIVEBLOG UPDATES

Unconfirmed reports say that principal Dawn Hochsprung and a school psychologist were killed, according to a parent who claimed to witness part of the attack, CNN reported.

CBS reports that a student's father was the shooter.

Danbury Hospital's emergency room staff has readied its wing for the arrival of an unknown number of victims, a spokeswoman for Western Connecticut Health Network told News Times.

Do you have information on this developing story? Let us know: openreporting@huffingtonpost.com

Reports say that the alleged shooter appeared in the building's main office at about 9:40 a.m., approximately 30 minutes after the school day began.

The initial 911 call said that students were trapped in a classroom with the adult shooter who had two guns, according to WABC.

Students were led single file from the schoolhouse to a nearby fire station. Parents alerted to the catastrophe by text messages and emails sent by the school district arrived hoping to find their children safe.

There are approximately 626 students enrolled in kindergarten through 4th grade classes at Sandy Hook Elementary, with another 46 faculty members, Newtown Patch reported.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby setzer777 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:50 pm UTC

It's crazy what humans are capable off, and how easily anyone can murder people if they are so inclined.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Роберт » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:31 pm UTC

His name doesn't sound Muslim, so I guess this won't be labelled terrorism and we'll likely assume some sort of mental illness. Cue arguments for more gun control and counter arguments mentioning similar knifings in China.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Brace » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:39 pm UTC

The president is speaking on the subject at 3:15 EST

http://www.whitehouse.gov/live/youtube- ... -president

No prizes for guessing how he's going to respond.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

schismtracer
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:35 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby schismtracer » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:57 pm UTC

No prizes for guessing how [Obama]'s going to respond.


Ban guns, homeschooling, and Christianity, then disband the federal government and declare the US a UN vassal? [/Glenn Beck]

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Brace » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:28 pm UTC

Well, a non-exaggerated version of the first item at least.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

Krealr
Posts: 157
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:22 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Krealr » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:01 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:His name doesn't sound Muslim, so I guess this won't be labelled terrorism and we'll likely assume some sort of mental illness.


Looks like you nailed it.

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/live-updates-newtown-ct-school-shooting/

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Well, a non-exaggerated version of the first item at least.

You know, that's the same old NRA fearmongering that happens every time one of you card carrying NRA members* goes off on a shooting spree. "Oh noes, the president will use this tragedy to seize all our guns, unlike the last 10 times this happened." If you kept actually kept your members under control instead of this "free guns for everyone" bs, we'd have less of this shit. But noooo., you have to get all uptight about the MAN, questioning you or checking your "background".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA0W69U2_Y
Care to bet about his response before you look?

*My charge is just as substantiated as yours.

Please try not to be so inflammatory. -Hawk
Last edited by sardia on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lutzj
Posts: 898
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:20 am UTC
Location: Ontario

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby lutzj » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 pm UTC

Not half an hour from my hometown; many people on Facebook are memorializing children they knew personally. Awful situation.
addams wrote:I'm not a bot.
That is what a bot would type.

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby DSenette » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Brace wrote:Well, a non-exaggerated version of the first item at least.

You know, that's the same old NRA fearmongering that happens every time one of you card carrying NRA members goes off on a shooting spree. "Oh noes, the president will use this tragedy to seize all our guns, unlike the last 10 times this happened." If you kept actually kept your members under control instead of this "free guns for everyone" bs, we'd have less of this shit. But noooo., you have to get all uptight about the MAN, questioning you or checking your "background".

right, and you've got access to the shooters NRA membership status from?
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:08 pm UTC

Krealr wrote:
Роберт wrote:His name doesn't sound Muslim, so I guess this won't be labelled terrorism and we'll likely assume some sort of mental illness.


Looks like you nailed it.

4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/live-updates-newtown-ct-school-shooting/

sweet, more reasons to fear and distrust people with mental illnesses!
I have a 'personality disorder'. I'm also not a murderer.
Of course, the thing about having a shrink is that they don't have any way to make you tell them the truth all the time. So his mental state is possibly unknowable.
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Роберт » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 pm UTC

Out of curiosity, how come there's usually rumors of more gunman than the official report at the end?
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:10 pm UTC

I'm glad it took at least 2 posts before everyone stopped caring about what happened and started pushing their political talking points.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby DSenette » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:11 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Out of curiosity, how come there's usually rumors of more gunman than the official report at the end?

most people don't know how feasible it is for one person to shoot over 100 rounds out of a weapon by themselves maybe?

there was apparently some guy wearing black in the woods near the school too...and, well....wearing black is probably not the best coincidental thing that you could have going for you at the time of a shooting like this.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:11 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Out of curiosity, how come there's usually rumors of more gunman than the official report at the end?

Confusion, probably.

Diadem wrote:I'm glad it took at least 2 posts before everyone stopped caring about what happened and started pushing their political talking points.

What do you think this is, a Facebook memorial wall?
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Brace » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:12 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:Out of curiosity, how come there's usually rumors of more gunman than the official report at the end?


Because people under the extreme stress of a life threatening situation who have never dealt with or trained for that situation before are bad witnesses.

sardia wrote:
Brace wrote:Well, a non-exaggerated version of the first item at least.

You know, that's the same old NRA fearmongering that happens every time one of you card carrying NRA members* goes off on a shooting spree. "Oh noes, the president will use this tragedy to seize all our guns, unlike the last 10 times this happened." If you kept actually kept your members under control instead of this "free guns for everyone" bs, we'd have less of this shit. But noooo., you have to get all uptight about the MAN, questioning you or checking your "background".


Background checks are already federally compulsory except for person-to-person in-state sales, which are only legal in specific states. This is a president who has expressed a commitment to, at minimum, an assault weapons ban, something which incidentally is part of the democratic party platform. I voted for Obama and I'm not a member of the NRA. I did watch his response. The vast majority was directed towards the tragedy, but there were a couple sentences thrown in there expressing his political convictions.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:19 pm UTC

I officially feel bad for Ryan Lanza, the brother of the person identified as the shooter, Adam Lanza.
Police initially messed up the names(shooter may have been carrying his brother's ID) and now the internet is covered with crap like fake Facebook accounts of this guy (Ryan)who wasn't there and didn't do this, and whose mother was also killed in this massacre.
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

User avatar
lutzj
Posts: 898
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:20 am UTC
Location: Ontario

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby lutzj » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:22 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I officially feel bad for Ryan Lanza, the brother of the person identified as the shooter, Adam Lanza.
Police initially messed up the names(shooter may have been carrying his brother's ID) and now the internet is covered with crap like fake Facebook accounts of this guy (Ryan)who wasn't there and didn't do this, and whose mother was also killed in this massacre.


On the other hand, his non-dead status should make it hard for people to confuse him for the shooter in everyday life.
addams wrote:I'm not a bot.
That is what a bot would type.

Роберт
Posts: 4285
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 1:56 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Роберт » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:22 pm UTC

Yeah, that and the "multiple shooter" reports etc all make me wonder on how valuable it is to try to get the news spread nationally before anyone knows what actually happened.
The Great Hippo wrote:[T]he way we treat suspected terrorists genuinely terrifies me.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:25 pm UTC

IIRC, background checks are a joke right now due to the tradeshow loopholes, and the lack of interstate communications. eg a felon in state A buys it in state B, who is none the wiser. I wouldn't mind if Obama harnessed all these shootings into some form of gun control, but I don't see him prioritizing his time and effort to convince all of his party, and a substantial number of republicans in the shadow of NRA opposition to anything that hints at gun control. This is the golden age of the NRA right now, and it'll take like 5 shootings in a row by high ranking members of the NRA themselves to push the country into legislating gun control. Maybe if a bunch of muslims, or some other minority started shooting up whites in the name of terrorism, you could get it through based on anti-terrorism, but I doubt it.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3628
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:33 pm UTC

sardia wrote:IIRC, background checks are a joke right now due to the tradeshow loopholes, and the lack of interstate communications. eg a felon in state A buys it in state B, who is none the wiser..



There is no 'tradeshow loophole', and the federal mandated background checks are handled at the national level, interstate communication, or lack thereof does not factor into them at all.

Edit: Here's a link I've been looking for. Mass publicizing of these incidents is a major influence on future attacks.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 pm UTC

I've looked into it, and you're right. There's no tradeshow loophole, it's just that private citizens who sell guns to other people aren't required to have federal background checks, and it happens to happen at tradeshows. Your statement that background checks happen at the national level is misleading. They get their information based on what states send them, and individual states vary what they send, so some states are more comprehensive then others.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/us/19weapons.html

While it makes some sense, do you have any evidence that reporting on a shooting leads to more shootings? How big is the effect? Are there other possible causes? Does that mean there were no mass shootings before the age of 24 hour news networks? Or before television news?
Last edited by sardia on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:26 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3628
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:19 pm UTC

Felonies are covered by the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, they do not vary from state to state.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:27 pm UTC

But mental illness (and waivers to said illness) are not.

User avatar
Eseell
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:58 am UTC
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Eseell » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:34 pm UTC

Mental illness isn't the standard for losing your right to keep and bear arms. You have to have been adjudicated mentally defective or involuntarily committed to a mental institution. I'm certainly for improved reporting of those conditions to the NICS database, but we don't yet know whether the shooter in this case met either of them. Neither one is common, and in recent mass shootings I don't think any of the killers have met those particular conditions for being a prohibited possessor.
"Math is hard work and it occupies your mind -- and it doesn't hurt to learn all you can of it, no matter what rank you are; everything of any importance is founded on mathematics." - Robert A. Heinlein

User avatar
Brace
Posts: 1169
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:40 am UTC
Location: Denver, Co
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Brace » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:35 pm UTC

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the shooter was autistic. He was reportedly diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder as well. There's not a good reason either of these things should be disqualifying conditions.
"The future is the only kind of property that the masters willingly concede to the slaves" - Albert Camus

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:51 pm UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:I officially feel bad for Ryan Lanza, the brother of the person identified as the shooter, Adam Lanza.
Police initially messed up the names(shooter may have been carrying his brother's ID) and now the internet is covered with crap like fake Facebook accounts of this guy (Ryan)who wasn't there and didn't do this, and whose mother was also killed in this massacre.


The guy should sue and get a bunch of money. The Clackamas County Sheriff's office, after the mall shooting that happened here this week, identified the shooter within a few hours but withheld his name for over 12 hours while they verified his identity.

User avatar
Cleverbeans
Posts: 1378
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:16 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Cleverbeans » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:10 am UTC

I have been suffering with mental illness most of my life, with serious problems arising by age 8, and I was 35 when I first received a diagnose. I'm confident that if I had easy access to firearms during my adolescence that myself and many of my peers would be dead. I know that many of the people I knew tried to find help for me, but there was little education centred around early diagnosis and treatment at the time and I'm grateful for the help I've received. I hopeful some of the stigma and discrimination towards mental illness can be addressed with education and early intervention. Paranoia in all it's forms can quickly escalate into violence, and I've seen a perfectly normal man go suddenly enraged at a phantom and kick the air during a med change. The worst part of mental illness I think, is that you almost always hurt the people you love the most.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." - Abraham Lincoln

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby EMTP » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 am UTC

Brace wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, the shooter was autistic. He was reportedly diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder as well. There's not a good reason either of these things should be disqualifying conditions.


Citation needed.

It appears we have some anecdotal evidence that they should be.

It seems like a reasonable list of disqualifers might include; convicted of a felony, convicted of other violent crime, history of psychosis AND medical noncompliance, homicidal ideation, prior suicide attempt.

The right to bear arms, like all Constitutional rights, is a limited, qualified right in practice.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

iamspen
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby iamspen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:58 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm glad it took at least 2 posts before everyone stopped caring about what happened and started pushing their political talking points.


Yeah! Let's not pretend there's some sort of problem here or something!

User avatar
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
As the Arbiter of Everything, Everything Sucks
Posts: 8314
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: I FUCKING MOVED TO THE WOODS

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:12 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Brace wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, the shooter was autistic. He was reportedly diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder as well. There's not a good reason either of these things should be disqualifying conditions.


Citation needed.

It appears we have some anecdotal evidence that they should be.

It seems like a reasonable list of disqualifers might include; convicted of a felony, convicted of other violent crime, hisory of psychosis AND medical noncompliance, homicidal ideation, prior suicide attempt.

The right to bear arms, like all Constitutional rights, is a limited, qualified right in practice.

So you're asking for citation on this poster's opinion even though the two things he mentioned, autism and personality disorder, are nowhere near the stuff on your list?
Is this because the 19 mass shootings that have happened in the last 5 years or so weren't all at the hands of someone prohibited from buying guns?
Heyyy baby wanna kill all humans?

jareds
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:56 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby jareds » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:18 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Brace wrote:As mentioned earlier in the thread, the shooter was autistic. He was reportedly diagnosed with an unspecified personality disorder as well. There's not a good reason either of these things should be disqualifying conditions.


Citation needed.

It appears we have some anecdotal evidence that they should be.

That's the opposite of how citations work. You should be the one to cite something for the proposition that autistic people are dangerous (hopefully controlling for common concomitant conditions like mental retardation), since a study to showing that autistic people are not more dangerous is much less likely to be published (and, for that matter, less likely to be conducted if the researcher expects a negative result). Of course, this one incident barely rises to the level of absolute junk even as anecdotal evidence.

The Aurora shooter died his hair a weird color. Maybe people who do that should be banned from owning guns. That's about as sensible as saying, "Hey, this one guy had autism and shot a bunch of people; maybe they're all prone to that." It seems that every such incident causes people to pick out anything weird about the shooter and fret about it, as though everyone weird should be treated as a homocidal maniac waiting to go off. (As opposed to people meeting criteria such as you listed in your next paragraph, which can be rationally expected to be related to a propensity for violence (for the most part--I'm not sure about non-violent felonies in general).)

As for "unspecified personality disorder", that's so vague as to be meaningless; the disorder might or might not be rationally expected to be related to a propensity for violence.

It seems like a reasonable list of disqualifers might include; convicted of a felony, convicted of other violent crime, history of psychosis AND medical noncompliance, homicidal ideation, prior suicide attempt.

None of which are especially associated with autistic spectrum disorders.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11032
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:22 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Brace wrote:Well, a non-exaggerated version of the first item at least.

You know, that's the same old NRA fearmongering that happens every time one of you card carrying NRA members* goes off on a shooting spree. "Oh noes, the president will use this tragedy to seize all our guns, unlike the last 10 times this happened." If you kept actually kept your members under control instead of this "free guns for everyone" bs, we'd have less of this shit. But noooo., you have to get all uptight about the MAN, questioning you or checking your "background".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIA0W69U2_Y
Care to bet about his response before you look?

*My charge is just as substantiated as yours.


I don't think it's been reported that he's an NRA member. Obama stated in the debates that he wanted to bring back the Clinton assault weapon ban. So, no, they're not really equal. And nobody is talking about free guns for everyone.

Meaux_Pas wrote:sweet, more reasons to fear and distrust people with mental illnesses!
I have a 'personality disorder'. I'm also not a murderer.
Of course, the thing about having a shrink is that they don't have any way to make you tell them the truth all the time. So his mental state is possibly unknowable.


Well, yes, not all mental disorders are dangerous to others. Certainly not equally dangerous. I think the current standard is adequate, with a focus on violence. Non violent disorders are not necessarily a big deal in this context. Autism isn't strongly linked, I believe.
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:31 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
lutzj
Posts: 898
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:20 am UTC
Location: Ontario

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby lutzj » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:23 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
Meaux_Pas wrote:I officially feel bad for Ryan Lanza, the brother of the person identified as the shooter, Adam Lanza.
Police initially messed up the names(shooter may have been carrying his brother's ID) and now the internet is covered with crap like fake Facebook accounts of this guy (Ryan)who wasn't there and didn't do this, and whose mother was also killed in this massacre.


The guy should sue and get a bunch of money. The Clackamas County Sheriff's office, after the mall shooting that happened here this week, identified the shooter within a few hours but withheld his name for over 12 hours while they verified his identity.


I'd really like to see the media get burned for their insane zeal with this sort of event.
addams wrote:I'm not a bot.
That is what a bot would type.

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby EMTP » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:42 am UTC

That's the opposite of how citations work. You should be the one to cite something for the proposition that autistic people are dangerous


No, I'm pretty sure the person who makes the assertion is the one with an obligation to provide evidence.

Perhaps there is no reason to restrict gun ownership to people who have personality disorders or are autistic. However, since you are describing the person who carried out the second worst mass shooting inAmerican history, perhaps you should elucidate your reasons to think so.

As for "unspecified personality disorder", that's so vague as to be meaningless; the disorder might or might not be rationally expected to be related to a propensity for violence
.

That of course is entirely correct, and even if there were good information about the mental health history of the killer, it'd still be anecdotal evidence.

But saying that this case doesn't prove anything about mental illness and firearms is entirely different from dismissing the killer's problems as nothing that should stop somebody from owning firearms. As you point out, some personality disorders are associated with violent behavior:

Recent data suggest that personality disorders, especially antisocial and borderline, are strongly related to the manifestation of violent acts
.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18281846
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:35 am UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/us/po ... tml?ref=us
Signs of hope, but also signs of inaction on the Obama administration. What I found interesting is the line "NRA was a paper tiger in 2012". Does that mean that there were those who didn't toe the NRA line and won? I haven't heard anything like that in a decade. We still have no idea what if any form of gun control is even being considered.

User avatar
Eseell
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:58 am UTC
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Contact:

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby Eseell » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:44 am UTC

That's a statement from the Violence Policy Center, a gun control group similar to the Brady Campaign; everything they say has an anti-gun or anti-NRA spin, whether it's true or not. You can't take their word on this issue any more than you can the NRA's.
"Math is hard work and it occupies your mind -- and it doesn't hurt to learn all you can of it, no matter what rank you are; everything of any importance is founded on mathematics." - Robert A. Heinlein

jareds
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:56 pm UTC

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby jareds » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:12 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
That's the opposite of how citations work. You should be the one to cite something for the proposition that autistic people are dangerous


No, I'm pretty sure the person who makes the assertion is the one with an obligation to provide evidence.

Perhaps there is no reason to restrict gun ownership to people who have personality disorders or are autistic. However, since you are describing the person who carried out the second worst mass shooting inAmerican history, perhaps you should elucidate your reasons to think so.

The problem is that (limited to austism), Brace's statement is that there is no good reason for autism to be a disqualifying condition, not that there is a good reason for autism not to be a disqualifying condition. It's a negative statement and there should be no expectation of evidence for it. You're effectively saying that no one should be able to make a statement like the former unless they have evidence for a statement like the latter.

Moreover, the former statement is the morally proper standard to be using in this context. If one is arguing against passing laws discriminating against a class of people, the absence of a good reason to do so is a legitimate argument--it is not appropriate to demand proof that the class of people are safe or whatever. In this context, the burden of proof absolutely should be on the claim that a class of people is dangerous.

As for the fact that the second worst mass killer may be autistic, I really believe you're smarter than that. You could do the same by picking out any mental condition post hoc. What if he's left-handed? That sounds pretty sinister. It is useless except as a tiny piece of supporting evidence for something you already have some actual reason to believe.

EMTP wrote:
As for "unspecified personality disorder", that's so vague as to be meaningless; the disorder might or might not be rationally expected to be related to a propensity for violence
.

That of course is entirely correct, and even if there were good information about the mental health history of the killer, it'd still be anecdotal evidence.

But saying that this case doesn't prove anything about mental illness and firearms is entirely different from dismissing the killer's problems as nothing that should stop somebody from owning firearms. As you point out, some personality disorders are associated with violent behavior:

Recent data suggest that personality disorders, especially antisocial and borderline, are strongly related to the manifestation of violent acts
.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18281846


Yeah, no kidding. I think I was pretty clear that it's possible that the "unspecified personality disorder" is something that should have been a disqualifying condition, but we won't know one way or the other until further news comes out.

The Mighty Thesaurus
In your library, eating your students
Posts: 4399
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:47 am UTC
Location: The Daily Bugle

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:40 am UTC

jareds wrote: What if he's left-handed? That sounds pretty sinister.

I see what you did there.
LE4dGOLEM wrote:your ability to tell things from things remains one of your skills.
Weeks wrote:Not only can you tell things from things, you can recognize when a thing is a thing

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

User avatar
yurell
Posts: 2924
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:19 am UTC
Location: Australia!

Re: 27 dead in Shooting at CT Elementary School

Postby yurell » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:57 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm glad it took at least 2 posts before everyone stopped caring about what happened and started pushing their political talking points.


Oh, I'm sorry that it's not a sign of caring to try your best to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.
cemper93 wrote:Dude, I just presented an elaborate multiple fraction in Comic Sans. Who are you to question me?


Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests