Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

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Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Angua » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:35 pm UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7717545.stm

So, this boy in Arizona shot his father and someone else who they think was a lodger. Apparently there were no warning signs.
This is really weird, I wonder what happened.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Kachi » Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:31 pm UTC

Saw this on the news. That's pretty tragic. What's possibly worse is that the way they discuss the little boy. Some people refer to him as "young man," for example, and they describe the incident as a "premeditated murder" and a "crime." It just hints a bit at trying him as some kind of adult. I mean, surely they wouldn't, right? I'm just being paranoid.

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby zealo » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:49 am UTC

i've never understood how the US doesn't seem to have an age limit on trying people as adults or children:/
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Joeldi » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:12 am UTC

This reminds me of a John Marsden book..
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Angua » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:48 am UTC

He shouldn't be tried as an adult at 8, even if he is a genius (I have no evidence to suggest he is, that's the only argument I can think of that they'd be able to make). I feel sorry for him, whatever his reason it will be a terrible thing to ahve to live with for the rest of his life. Is there any insight into why he's done it?
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:47 pm UTC

zealo wrote:i've never understood how the US doesn't seem to have an age limit on trying people as adults or children:/


We have one. Prosecutors never seem to know that, though.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby cspirou » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:52 pm UTC

It's weird how they do stuff. If you murder someone at 16 then you can be tried as an adult. However if a 16 year old has consensual sex with someone that is much older then they are minor because they are not considered mature.

So which one is it? It's one or the other.

I think this will be a very interesting case for the legal system. Particularly for a conservative state. There's no question he will be punished but will he be a free man? Will he have his name changed and reenter society anonymously? If you accept a society with guns then does this mean that the education system should address this or is it uniquely up to the parents?

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Belial » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:55 pm UTC

Angua wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7717545.stm

So, this boy in Arizona shot his father and someone else who they think was a lodger. Apparently there were no warning signs.
This is really weird, I wonder what happened.


At that age, a kid's view of reality is skewed all to hell. Maybe he was molested or mistreated and lashed out (which would at least be comprehensible to us) but maybe he just thought he was playing a game, or maybe he was lashing out for some slight that wouldn't even register to us, and without full understanding of the consequences.

In other words, who the fuck knows.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:58 pm UTC

It looks like the police and the DA do want to try him as an adult.

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby clintonius » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:02 pm UTC

I was just coming here to post that.

He's due in court today, so I imagine by this evening or tomorrow we'll know how he'll be tried.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Angua » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:53 pm UTC

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4756444a12.html

They seem to be more sympathetic towards him. I can't believe that it's in the law of anywhere that an 8 year old (hasn't even reached puberty for heaven's sake) can be tried as an adult. It's really very scary.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Paranoid__Android » Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

Thats really sad, :|
Normally in these cases the kid is quiet and withdrawn but here he seems fairly normal.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Xaldibik » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:37 pm UTC

In cases of murder when a child is the one committing the crime, doesn't the US often investigate the parents instead? Not as an abuse case, but what they were teaching the child. Surely if they let him play violent games, then they don't teach him the difference between them and real life(I am in no way blaming violent video games for violence in youth, but certainly those who haven't been thought the difference between them and real life are more susceptible to accidents), the parents are partly to blame, right? In this case, the boy killed his father, so I guess we don't have much testimony on that end, but I believe it's an angle that should definitely be looked into.

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby clintonius » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:42 pm UTC

The articles actually speak of investigating the parents for instances of abuse, as well as the fact that the father is the one who taught the child how to use a gun. It's difficult to fathom a child lashing out in this way for no reason, but as belial stated above, children this age just have very little sense of reality. I'm not 100% confident that anyone will be able to deduce the reason this happened. Rest assured that the step-mother and other figures in the boy's life (not to mention the father) will be investigated thoroughly.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Scaredcrow » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:49 pm UTC

In the state of Arizona a person aged 8 and up can be tried as an adult. So it seems he just makes the cut.

Considering how absolutely horrible the story is, I wouldn't be surprised if even more horrendous information comes out of this.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Megatriorchis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:47 pm UTC

zealo wrote:i've never understood how the US doesn't seem to have an age limit on trying people as adults or children:/

We do, but in cases like this when premeditated murder is suspected, then the court can choose to try the child as an adult.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby segmentation fault » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:24 pm UTC

how does an 8 year old premeditate murder unless, as said before, hes a "genius?"
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby clintonius » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:31 pm UTC

Hence the term "suspected." If they're going to say he actually premeditated the murder, that requires an assumption that he committed murder at all, which is a presumption of guilt. That goes directly contrary to what our justice system stands for.

That said -- while I wouldn't put it past an eight-year-old to plan to kill someone, I do not think that warrants the child being tried as an adult. There are so many ways in which an eight-year-old can't possibly be considered an adult in terms of the thought processes that leads to what we consider first-degree homicide.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby zealo » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:20 am UTC

Megatriorchis wrote:
zealo wrote:i've never understood how the US doesn't seem to have an age limit on trying people as adults or children:/

We do, but in cases like this when premeditated murder is suspected, then the court can choose to try the child as an adult.


not an adult if you want to consume alcohol or vote

adult if you want to kill someone

got it
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby mohini » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:46 pm UTC

I recall that the youngest person to ever be given the death penalty in a US court of law was a fouteen year old black boy. But that was a race thing. Usually, when a child is tried as an adult, they get life without parole.

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Scaredcrow » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:36 pm UTC

In 2005 the USSC decided that it is unconstitutional to sentence a juvenile to the death penalty.

Roper v. Simmons from Wikipedia
text of the case

Without getting into a discussion on the death penalty and it's application with juveniles, the most this kid can get is life without parole. It is far more likely, if convicted, that he'll serve two, concurrent terms of 25 to life. The American prison system is designed to rehabilitate the prisoner, and leniency is commonly given to children.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby clintonius » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:26 am UTC

Scaredcrow wrote:The American prison system is falsely claims to be designed to rehabilitate the prisoner, and leniency is commonly given to children.

That's a bit more accurate. I realize this isn't the place for it, and I think there's a thread in SB for this topic at large, but to make the point and keep it on track -- you think giving an eight-year-old fifty years in prison is lenient?
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Scaredcrow » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:36 am UTC

The system is designed to rehabilitate. I am not saying I believe this is what it achieves in practice. I think it's real world outcome is far from it, but that is for another thread. His terms would, if you go on similar cases, be served concurrently. This means he could be out in 25 years. And yes, I think 25, or 50 for that matter, is lenient for murdering two people.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby clintonius » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:48 am UTC

I was not aware that sentences could be served concurrently. Whether or not we think 25 years is lenient for double homicide in general, I think the child's age and mental capacity need to be taken into account here, and when they are I'm tempted to say that it is almost impossible to justify putting him behind bars until he's 33, let alone call it leniency.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:57 am UTC

There is simply no way that this kid deserves that much of a punishment for this.

Pyschiatric evaluation and treatment is really the only logical solution here. If he understands what he did, try and make him understand why it was wrong and why you can't do that. If he doesn't understand what he did...make him understand and then do the same as above.

The point of prison is (supposed to be) rehabilitation, and keeping the populace safe if a criminal may act again. If it seems apparent this kid isn't going to do it again, there's no reason he should be locked up for anything other than psychiatric evaluation and rehabilitation.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby PictureSarah » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:41 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:If it seems apparent this kid isn't going to do it again


In my mind, this is a pretty big if. I guess we'll know soon enough, after a psychiatric evaluation, etc. But by the time I was 8 years old, I'm pretty sure I knew exactly what death was, how it came about and how it was a really bad idea to kill someone. Any 8 year old who did it not once, but twice, has some serious problems, the kind that I think probably WOULD lead him to do it again, and I question whether he is even rehabilitatable. I certainly hope so, but I don't think we should assume so.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:15 am UTC

PictureSarah wrote:I certainly hope so, but I don't think we should assume so.


I think it's just as rash to assume NOT so - which is what's being done with a decision to try him as an adult.

"Trying as an adult" needs to be fixed in this stupid country. It's aggravating when when have a juvenile justice system that operates specifically for people under 18, unless we don't feel like using it.

I'm not saying this kid should have a finger waggled at him and be sent to the candy store with only half his allowance, but this is ridiculous. Trying him as an adult for murder. Whereas if instead of blowing these guys' brains out, he'd, I dunno, given them handjobs, we'd have quite a different legal case - one based on the assumption that he couldn't have possibly understood what he was doing, whereas with this murder trial we're saying he understands full fucking well.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby PictureSarah » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:55 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:Trying him as an adult for murder. Whereas if instead of blowing these guys' brains out, he'd, I dunno, given them handjobs, we'd have quite a different legal case - one based on the assumption that he couldn't have possibly understood what he was doing, whereas with this murder trial we're saying he understands full fucking well.


That's a stupid analogy. I agree completely that we have a juvenile justice system in place, and it should be used in this case, and in all cases where somebody under a certain age (that is consistent throughout the country, preferably), but comparing murder with a sex act is ridiculous. Most kids who are school aged understand death and that it's not a good thing. Most kids are are school aged don't necessarily understand sex. There is VERY little likelihood that an adult would ever try to coerce a child into killing them, whereas there is a very strong possibility of an adult trying to coerce a child into performing a sex act with them, which would make it a crime of an adult, not of a child.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Dream » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:25 am UTC

PictureSarah wrote:There is VERY little likelihood that an adult would ever try to coerce a child into killing them, whereas there is a very strong possibility of an adult trying to coerce a child into performing a sex act with them, which would make it a crime of an adult, not of a child.

That's not really the point. The child is assumed to be entirely innocent of intent to engage in sexual activity. Even if the child can be proved to have initiated the contact, and to have enjoyed it, and suffered no mental or physical damage, the assumption of the law is that the child doesn't know that sex with an adult is wrong. Even testimony from the child that read "I know it was against the law, but I did it anyway because I wanted it" wouldn't change the balance of responsibility. However in this case, the assumption is that he child did know enough to shoulder responsibility for the act, when it is entirely possible that the child believed it was doing nothing wrong. Why does the law assume this, instead of seeking to establish it? So there is a double standard here, even if the two situations are very different.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Alder » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:48 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:Pyschiatric evaluation and treatment is really the only logical solution here. If he understands what he did, try and make him understand why it was wrong and why you can't do that. If he doesn't understand what he did...make him understand and then do the same as above.

I suppose the third option would be, if he understands what he did and already knew it was wrong, and did it anyway... :|
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby cspirou » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:17 am UTC

PictureSarah wrote:
In my mind, this is a pretty big if. I guess we'll know soon enough, after a psychiatric evaluation, etc. But by the time I was 8 years old, I'm pretty sure I knew exactly what death was, how it came about and how it was a really bad idea to kill someone. Any 8 year old who did it not once, but twice, has some serious problems, the kind that I think probably WOULD lead him to do it again, and I question whether he is even rehabilitatable. I certainly hope so, but I don't think we should assume so.


He didn't really do it twice. There's a difference between killing two people at the same time and killing one person and waiting a few months to kill again.

Scaredcrow wrote:The system is designed to rehabilitate. I am not saying I believe this is what it achieves in practice. I think it's real world outcome is far from it, but that is for another thread. His terms would, if you go on similar cases, be served concurrently. This means he could be out in 25 years. And yes, I think 25, or 50 for that matter, is lenient for murdering two people.


If we are assuming that he's going to be released back into society and we want him to be a productive member of that society then it is much better to release back sooner then later. People start working in their 20's and earn money for retirement during that time. What is he going to do? Is he going to have a nice sum of money to live on when he gets out of jail at 60? I somehow doubt it. ALL his adult life was spent in the prison system. Imagine if your high school years were in captivity? You think that wouldn't mess up your valuable formative years? Not to mention your 20's. THe best thing is for him to be released at 22 under a new indentity after it's determined he's no danger to society.

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby fjafjan » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:12 pm UTC

He's fucking eight years old! The whole point of legal system based on age limits is that when you're below, and it varies from person to person but around 16-20, you don't know what the fuck you're doing. An eight year old has a pretty damn strange view of the world, and can't be trusted to make his own decisions, therefor that responsibility is let to his/her guardian/parent. That is why they can't vote, aren't allowed to drive etc etc. You can't fucking sentance someone under those cirkumstances to life in prison with no chance of parole. What the mother fucking hell. So maybe he is severely phychologically disturbed, well then have people check him out and put him in mental care if that is the case, but fucking prison? For an eight year old? for life? without chance of parole?

Fuck! That! Shit!
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby PictureSarah » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:10 pm UTC

Even if he is tried as an adult and sentenced as an adult (I certainly hope not) he won't be put into prison. I'm pretty sure that would never fly...it wouldn't be safe for him. They'll put him into a juvenile detention center, which as far as his safety goes might be almost just as bad, but it will at least be designed more for people like him.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby Woofsie » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:05 pm UTC

The thought of this kid being tried as an adult is horrifying. I have an 8 year-old brother.. I can't even imagine how horrible it would be for him to spend the rest of his life in prison.

How can your justice system be so fucked up?

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby fjafjan » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:29 pm UTC

PictureSarah wrote:Even if he is tried as an adult and sentenced as an adult (I certainly hope not) he won't be put into prison. I'm pretty sure that would never fly...it wouldn't be safe for him. They'll put him into a juvenile detention center, which as far as his safety goes might be almost just as bad, but it will at least be designed more for people like him.

Yeah but when he's 50 he'll be in prison and will have been for over thirty years, for something he did when he was eight. Man I did stuff that might get me atleast fined or such when I was over eight, you know, fighting which is called assault/battery, and some things which could qualify as vandalizing. This is just so crazy.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby seetherchick2446 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:01 pm UTC

"Under Arizona law, charges can laid on anyone eight years or older."

I took this as he could be tried for murder, not tried as an adult. I think the law states that you can be charged for a crime only if you are 8 years or older. So if he did this as a six or seven year old they couldn't charge him for murder. I could be wrong though......

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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby HighCharity » Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:57 pm UTC

Look, I'm all for trying children as children, when they do something like steal or assault someone. But this kid shot and killed two people. He admitted to it. He needs to be tried as an adult. I understand he has problems, but to be honest, I don't give a shit.
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:10 pm UTC

That's bullshit. A kid isn't an adult. Even if he sells military secrets to the Chinese.

Trying kids as adults is nothing more than TOUGH ON CRIMETM moral wankery
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HighCharity
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:04 am UTC

Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby HighCharity » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:That's bullshit. A kid isn't an adult. Even if he sells military secrets to the Chinese.

Trying kids as adults is nothing more than TOUGH ON CRIMETM moral wankery

I don't give a flying fuck if he's a kid or an adult. The little shit shot two people and admitted to it. 8-year olds are old enough to know not to shoot people.
folkhero wrote:I feel bad for the hooker, but that guy is too annoying to not make fun of.


Are Thefinvispol, Child wrote:Life is, in a word, caverns.

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PictureSarah
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Re: Father 'murdered' by son, aged 8

Postby PictureSarah » Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:38 pm UTC

As an aside, just about any child psychologist will tell you that children are highly suggestible, and just because he admitted to it doesn't mean he actually did it. Kids want to tell you what you want to hear. I think there really isn't anything concrete yet on what actually took place.
"A ship is safe in harbor, but that's not what ships are for."


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