Pi is wrong.

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Oort wrote:
Gelsamel wrote:Wait... are we making Circ/Dia = Pii (Same as old pi) and hence New Pi = Old Pi/2. Or are we making Pii just = 2pi and circ/dia still = pi.

I think it's that one.

in that case 2pi is just a good as name as pii in writing and much better when spoken.
in ur beanz makin u eveel

evilbeanfiend

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Vaniver wrote:
Actually while we're at it, lets rename Phi to Kitten, noone (except nerds )likes saying Phi.
I've actually turned in several math tests where I used either a drawing of a Pacman or a drawing of a ghost instead of a Greek letter for some symbol.

On an exam on lambda calculus I had to use a define a function that returned true iff its argument was less than 3. I used a heart (\heartsuit) to denote this function.

Torn Apart By Dingos

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I'd like to be the first to say:
Pi, love it or get out!
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ArmonSore

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Love either of them if you like

Seriously, do you expect both of these users to set up new accounts or bug the admins for a username change
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cmacis

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Torn Apart By Dingos wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Actually while we're at it, lets rename Phi to Kitten, noone (except nerds )likes saying Phi.
I've actually turned in several math tests where I used either a drawing of a Pacman or a drawing of a ghost instead of a Greek letter for some symbol.

On an exam on lambda calculus I had to use a define a function that returned true iff its argument was less than 3. I used a heart (\heartsuit) to denote this function.

interesting. why did you need that?
in ur beanz makin u eveel

evilbeanfiend

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Torn Apart By Dingos wrote:On an exam on lambda calculus I had to use a define a function that returned true iff its argument was less than 3. I used a heart (\heartsuit) to denote this function.

Wow, that's pretty awesome.
Did the instructor get it?

Joshua

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Torn Apart By Dingos wrote:On an exam on lambda calculus I had to use a define a function that returned true iff its argument was less than 3. I used a heart (\heartsuit) to denote this function.

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I like my avatar as a better solution than the Triple legged pi... for two reasons. The other is definitely male biased... and this one is self defining....

However, it might be interpreted as 2/pi which would be useless in this situation.

fynch

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While we are at it, we should also move everyone to use base-Pi instead of base 10. That would eliminate the need for a special symbol. Pi is represented as 1. Also 1/Pi is equal to one so we don't have to muck with fonts and typesetting to print things upside down.
Alan

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I came across something similar regarding e. It's pretty much the right choice, but in a certain application, I ended up using the constant E=e^{1/e} in a much more natural way. I was studying the recursive properties of the exponential map, particularly as an isomorphism from the reals to the positive reals, mapping addition homomorphically to multiplication, and multiplication to the binary operation defined by e^{log{a}log{b}}, and mapping that homomorphically to e^e^{log{log{a}}log{log{b}}}, and so on.

It turns out that the repeated application of exp{x} will map 0 to 1, 1 to e, e to e^e, and so on, and this sequence will diverge. But if you instead apply the map exp{x/e}=E^x, then you'll map 0 to 1, 1 to E, E to E^E, and so on, and this will converge to e. I think any larger number will lead to a diverging sequence, but I could be remembering that wrong. It turns out that e^{1/e} is also the biggest (real) number of the form x^{1/x} (you can prove this with some simple calculus). The associated inverse to the map E^x would be log_E{y}=elog{y}. In the recursive application, it seems like the number E would be much more natural to use than e.

However, I didn't really come up with any amazing uses for this stuff, and e has plenty of good reasons for being inherently better. But I thought it was an interesting parallel.

Woxor

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I wouldn't mind changing some of the notation for physics. V is velocity, a slightly curvier v is *sometimes* used for frequency (but sometimes not! MWAHAHAH!), god help you if you have crappy handwriting and need to use both in the same equation.

God, what were some of the other ones where we were using effectively the same letter for 3 different variables? There's that one that looks u with a long tail on the left, which would be used for reduced mass.. and U I have seen used as speed (In relativity formulas), as well as Potential energy.

I've seriously been this close to just making up notation on homework and tests with a little key for the grader, just because it would be that much easier. >.>
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As long as we are changing rules and such, let's make current flow in the direction electrons flow! I can (but won't) tell you how many freshman students have a tough time figuring out what's going on in their physics courses without all this current one way, electrons another. It's easy to institute a left-hand rule, call the electron positive, and mabye call the positron a negitron?
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Jakell

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Maybe I'm a dumb ass, but why are we ignoring the fact that the symbol we're talking about is not "pi" but a greek letter which, for ease of typing we choose to represent here on the internet with the romanized lettering "pi". Which kind of (to me at least) nullifies calling it "Pii" because well, frankly we don't have a greek letter for that.

Or am I missing something here?

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No, you aren't. I think it just grew out of someone's unintentional typo.
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Vaniver

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Piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Edit:

= -Pi
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Gelsamel
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Felgraf wrote:I wouldn't mind changing some of the notation for physics. V is velocity, a slightly curvier v is *sometimes* used for frequency (but sometimes not! MWAHAHAH!), god help you if you have crappy handwriting and need to use both in the same equation.

God, what were some of the other ones where we were using effectively the same letter for 3 different variables? There's that one that looks u with a long tail on the left, which would be used for reduced mass.. and U I have seen used as speed (In relativity formulas), as well as Potential energy.

I've seriously been this close to just making up notation on homework and tests with a little key for the grader, just because it would be that much easier. >.>

I'm thinking electricity needs to be reorganized. A C (which looks the same uppercase and lowercase) can stand for capacitance (in equations), Celsius (as a unit), the speed of light in a vacuum (in equations), Coulombs (a unit), or heat capacity.

Aglet

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I think it comes down to, we need more letters! Greek and English aside, we just need to start making more letters.

Or we could just switch to Chinese symbols for words. [How does it even work?]
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Peshmerga wrote:Pii is pronounced "pee".

Gosh.
Well, I pronounce the letter P as "pee", so that doesn't disambiguate anything (well, ok, p and P aren't used as often as pi or pii ...).

Anyway, think of the people who've memorised pi to thousands of decimal places! They would have to start over!

To anyone who thinks that these reasons against are less valid than your reasons for, well that's just your opinion.
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For a "serious" forum on a cool website, this thread contains a lot personal critique and lame jokes.

As the article of Bob Parish shows and the threadstarter noticed, 2pi is probably the more beautiful constant. But, alas, the world is full of injustice so the half-brother gets all the credit. pi is too entrenched to be changed simply for cosmetic reasons, it's a pity, but we love you, true pi...

Deity

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StuMo wrote:
Peshmerga wrote:Pii is pronounced "pee".

Gosh.
Well, I pronounce the letter P as "pee", so that doesn't disambiguate anything (well, ok, p and P aren't used as often as pi or pii ...).[quote]
The letter pi, in greek, is pronounced pee.

I told that to my math class, and one person said, "Ha, greek has a letter that sounds like 'Pee'!"
I had to bring up, "So does english..."

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Ended wrote:Yeah, the issue is one of terminology, rather than anything fundamental. We wouldn't change the value of pi as such, just redefine what we meant when we said 'pi'.
You are exactly correct. Pi is just a greek letter, the same as beta, chi, epsilon and all 20 or so others. They are all inherently meaningless, but we give them meaning by letting them stand for ideas, such as the ratio of circumference to diameter of a circle. What is the differece between p and pi? Well one is Roman and one is Greek, and they are shaped a bit differently, but that is about it.

Granted, pi is usually defined and understood as the ratio of circumference to diameter of a circle, but this is a relatively recent phenomenon, and according to Wikipedia, it was relatively uncommon until Euler used it consistently in his publications.

So in conclusion define pi (or pii for that matter) however you like when writing papers or doing assignments or whatever it is that you do, but just be explicit if you are not following the convention, and be consistent, and no one should have any problems. They might laugh at you behind your back, but certainly nothing more serious than that.

Felgraf wrote:I wouldn't mind changing some of the notation for physics. V is velocity, a slightly curvier v is *sometimes* used for frequency (but sometimes not! MWAHAHAH!), god help you if you have crappy handwriting and need to use both in the same equation.
You mean the lower-case Greek letter "nu".

Alan wrote:While we are at it, we should also move everyone to use base-Pi instead of base 10. That would eliminate the need for a special symbol. Pi is represented as 1.
First of all I doubt that basing a numbering system on a non-integer makes any sense, and secondly, even if it did, pi would be 10, and not 1.

GBmorris

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pi is very old here folks, long before euler. In physicality, the radius of a circle is much much harder to measure than the diameter. Thus, the ratio of circumference to diameter was more desirable to the circumference to radius.

If you're an ancient Egyptian, you wanted to know the damn circumference of the thing, you measured the diameter. Thus pi.

mosc
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The idea of the ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle is very old, but using the Greek letter pi to denote that idea is very recent. The Egyptians certainly did not use the letter pi, and that is the nature of the topic; simply notation, and not some more fundamental meaning. Which is what I was saying above.

GBmorris

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I cannot follow you there. The constant was used and defined thousands of years ago. Yes, they didn't use that exact letter but that doesn't mean they are dissimilar. Constants seem to be pulled from their oldest path, not their most recent use.

mosc
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Of course pi is wrong. See 1 Kings 7:23.
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Alpha Omicron

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Alpha Omicron wrote:Of course pi is wrong. See 1 Kings 7:23.

Reminds me of This classic usenet hoax

McLurker

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mosc wrote:I cannot follow you there. The constant was used and defined thousands of years ago. Yes, they didn't use that exact letter but that doesn't mean they are dissimilar. Constants seem to be pulled from their oldest path, not their most recent use.
You seem to be missing the point. Pi is a variable and one can define it however he wants, so long as he is clear about this, especially if his definition differs from the convention.

But in response to your statement, your theory does not hold water. If, as you say, "Constants seem to be pulled from their oldest path, not their most recent use," then pi should have a value of 80 in accordance with the Greek numbering system. You seem to be having a hard time in differentiating between the idea of the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter and the symbol used to represent it. The symbol has no inherent meaning itself.

GBmorris

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x is a variable. Pi is a constant. (dimensionless too)
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π, as most commonly used, is indeed a constant. Just like e. Or i.

However, as long as you define a different use in your paper, you're allowed to use each symbol as anything else you want. π is also used in statistics, for example, where Greek versus Latin letters are used to differentiate between parameters and statistics. And e can be used for any application where you're using letters from the beginning of the alphabet for your variables. And i isn't always Sqrt(-1). Sometimes it's just the index variable in a subscript, which has nothing to do with imaginary numbers.
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no-genius wrote:x is a variable. Pi is a constant. (dimensionless too)

Actually they are both letters. Often they are used to represent ideas in the form of constants or variables. Next time try reading the thread before posting.

GBmorris

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