Magic : The Gathering : The Thread : The Rename

[rrwoods]

I've got over 10,000 Magic: the Gathering cards I'm looking to get rid of. I don't want any money for them. If you're interested and can get to within 15 minutes of Columbia, MD (use Google Maps), throw me a PM.

Truth in advertising: Most of these cards are good for casual play at best. There are a sizable number of rares in the pool (800-ish), and while some of them are crazy-fun (Eye of the Storm; Stitch in Time; etc), none of them are really all that good. As far as sorting goes, they're grouped by color (or lack thereof), with rares at the end of each section. No other sorting guarantees whatsoever. There are no foils.

There's around 100 of each basic land. This is a very, very sizable collection for a group of players just getting into the game and will get you started quickly (especially with the basic land thrown in). Most of the cards span from Onslaught block through Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block, but there are some cards earlier than that (and probably a very small number of Shards of Alara cards as well). If you'd like more information, feel free to ask in this thread.

[Jack21222]

I picked up your last batch of cards, and I may pick these up as well to have enough to make some better casual decks. :-p

[rrwoods]

That would work I don't live in Annapolis anymore though; can you get to Columbia?

[Jessica]

Damn, a little far...
I almost want to send you a self addressed stamped box to send to me.

[Izawwlgood]

Oh! I'm also looking to get rid of some cards! I started collecting around revised, and have a multitude of legends, antiquities, dark, antiques, and ice age. If you've got any requests in those sets, let me know and we can work something out.

Sweet zombie jesus, if magic could pay for rent...

[Jessica]

I haven't played magic in a while. but I really want to play again, if I could find someone to play with... or get someone hooked again :\

[Izawwlgood]

Jessica, do you know of any computer interfaces that let us play? Like, we put in our deck and it shuffles and deals and stuff?

[SPsnow02]

One of my friends has a free copycat Magic Online that lets you enter your own decks I think, it's called "Magic Workstation"

http://www.magicworkstation.com/

Looks like there's a full and a free version actually...

I'd we more than willing to pick up some magic cards if anyone lives around Ann Arbor MI

[rrwoods]

Sweet zombie jesus, if magic could pay for rent...

... I wouldn't be giving these things away.

[Amnesiasoft]

A more interesting program for that was OCTGN, which was based on MTGPlay (which got murdered by lawyers). There is also a beta version of OCTGN 2 available. OCTGN was redesigned to not be "Magic only" (read: WotC lawyer proof). OCTGN 2 is a rather nice client. The main issue is, in order to play Magic with either one, you must find the appropriate card databases. I'll leave that up to you as their distribution is certainly not lawyer proof.

[Jack21222]

That would work I don't live in Annapolis anymore though; can you get to Columbia?

I know Columbia a lot better than Annapolis. Are you available on Monday or Tuesday?

I've made like three crappy decks from the ones I got from you before, just been hoping to run into some people that play. None of my dates recently know how. Maybe I'll get to teach a gal one day...

[rrwoods]

That would work I don't live in Annapolis anymore though; can you get to Columbia?

I know Columbia a lot better than Annapolis. Are you available on Monday or Tuesday?

I've made like three crappy decks from the ones I got from you before, just been hoping to run into some people that play. None of my dates recently know how. Maybe I'll get to teach a gal one day...

I'll be at home all day both Monday and Tuesday (for MLK and inauguration). I'll shoot you a PM with my address.

[Xeio]

One of my friends has a free copycat Magic Online that lets you enter your own decks I think, it's called "Magic Workstation"

http://www.magicworkstation.com/

Looks like there's a full and a free version actually...

If you don't mind playing against tourney decklists plastered all over the internet with absolutely no originality...

Granted, the biggest hurdle for magic is starting out when you have no cards, but the only solution that's worse than the problem is giving everyone 4 of every card like the non-WOTC programs do. I don't play much online anymore though, mostly since I don't like MTGO 3.0 very much, but I have a reasonable collection online (and offline).

[Amnesiasoft]

Hey, I usually only play with original decks online. Well, actually, I play with the same decks as I use offline . A 17/9 unblockable flying vigilant double-attacking creature is always fun...

[Izawwlgood]

Vigilant? Double attacking?

[Jessica]

I should load up MTGO 3... I wonder if I remember my username/password.
I have... a small collection online. Most of them are ravnica block and time spiral block, as that was when I joined and played an assload of drafts.

Actually... I think I will isntall MTGO again. I love drafting. i'm bad but it's hellafun.

[rrwoods]

Problem:

If you don't mind playing against tourney decklists plastered all over the internet with absolutely no originality...

Solution: Play against your friends.

[Amnesiasoft]

Vigilant? Double attacking?

Vigilant - This card does not tap when it attacks.
Double Strike - This card attacks twice. Its first attack is during the attack phase. Then after damage has been calculated out and applied, it does another attack.

[Jessica]

Vigilant? Double attacking?

Vigilant - This card does not tap when it attacks.
Double Strike - This card attacks twice. Its first attack is during the attack phase. Then after damage has been calculated out and applied, it does another attack.

Actually...
the first keyword is Vigilance. It's the ability on Sera Angel
Double strike - this creature deals first strike and regular combat damage.

slightly different but important... sorry magic makes me pedantic.

[Izawwlgood]

That makes more sense... Considering you only get one attack phase a turn, I was wondering how that worked out. So it deals first strike damage, then normal damage. What a stupid ability.

[Kag]

Ninja'd to it, but I've got the text open, so enjoy:
Vigilance:

Spoiler:

Vigilance is a static ability that modifies the rules for the declare attackers step. Attacking doesn’t cause
creatures with vigilance to tap. See rule 502.14, “Vigilance.”

502.14. Vigilance

502.14a Vigilance is a static ability that modifies the rules for the declare attackers step.

502.14b Attacking doesn’t cause creatures with vigilance to tap. (See rule 308, “Declare Attackers
Step.”)

502.14c Multiple instances of vigilance on the same creature are redundant.

For completeness, here's the aforementioned rule 308:

Spoiler:

308. Declare Attackers Step

308.1. As the declare attackers step begins, the active player declares attackers. This game action
doesn’t use the stack. If the defending player controls any planeswalkers, or the game allows the
active player to attack multiple other players, he or she declares which player or planeswalker each
creature is attacking. Effects from a creature that refer to a defending player refer only to the
defending player it’s attacking (if it’s attacking a player) or the controller of the planeswalker it’s
attacking (if it’s attacking a planeswalker). Then any abilities that triggered on attackers being
declared go on the stack. (See rule 410, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player gets
priority and players may play spells and abilities.

308.2. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the
declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the
declaration was illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 422,
“Handling Illegal Actions,” and rule 500, “Legal Attacks and Blocks”).

[*]308.2a The active player chooses which creatures that he or she controls, if any, will attack. The
chosen creatures must be untapped, and each one must either have haste or have been controlled
by the active player continuously since the beginning of the turn. For each of the chosen
creatures, the active player chooses an opponent or a planeswalker controlled by an opponent
for that creature to attack. Then he or she determines whether this set of attackers is legal. (See
rule 500, “Legal Attacks and Blocks.”)

[*]308.2b If any of the chosen creatures have banding or a bands with other ability, the active player
announces which creatures, if any, are banded with which. (See rule 502.10, “Banding.”)

[*]308.2c The active player taps the chosen creatures. Tapping a creature when it’s declared as an
attacker isn’t a cost; attacking simply causes creatures to become tapped.

[*]308.2d If any of the creatures require paying costs to attack, the active player determines the total
cost to attack. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes “locked in.” If effects
would change the total cost after this time, ignore this change.

[*]308.2e If any of the costs require mana, the active player then has a chance to play mana abilities
(see rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities”).

[*]308.2f Once the player has enough mana in his or her mana pool, he or she pays all costs in any
order. Partial payments are not allowed.

[*]308.2g Each chosen creature becomes an attacking creature if all costs have been paid, but only if
it’s still controlled by the active player. It remains an attacking creature until it’s removed from
combat or the combat phase ends, whichever comes first. See rule 306.4.

308.3. Abilities that trigger on a creature attacking trigger only at the point the creature is declared as an
attacker. They will not trigger if a creature attacks and then that creature’s characteristics change to
match the ability’s trigger condition.
Example: A permanent has the ability “Whenever a green creature attacks, destroy that
creature at end of combat.” If a blue creature attacks and is later turned green, the ability
will not trigger.

308.4. If a creature is put into play attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which
planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking as it comes into play (unless the effect that
put it into play specifies what it’s attacking). Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of
trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”

308.5. If no creatures are declared as attackers or put into play attacking, skip the declare blockers and
combat damage steps.

And Double Strike:

Spoiler:

502.28. Double Strike

[*]502.28a Double strike is a static ability that modifies the rules for the combat damage step. (See rule
310, “Combat Damage Step.”)

[*]502.28b At the start of the combat damage step, if at least one attacking or blocking creature has
double strike or first strike, creatures without double strike or first strike (see rule 502.2, “First
Strike”) don’t assign combat damage. Instead of proceeding to end of combat, the phase gets a
second combat damage step to handle the remaining creatures. In the second combat damage
step, surviving attackers and blockers that didn’t assign combat damage in the first step, plus
any creatures with double strike, assign their combat damage.

[*]502.28c Removing double strike from a creature during the first combat damage step will stop it
from assigning combat damage in the second combat damage step.

[*]502.28d Giving double strike to a creature with first strike after it has already put first strike combat
damage onto the stack in the first combat damage step will allow the creature to assign combat
damage in the second combat damage step.

[*]502.28e Multiple instances of double strike on the same creature are redundant.

And hey, why not, combat damage:

Spoiler:

310. Combat Damage Step

310.1. As the combat damage step begins, the active player announces how each attacking creature will
assign its combat damage. Then the defending player announces how each blocking creature will
assign its combat damage. All assignments of combat damage go on the stack as a single object.
Then any abilities that triggered on damage being assigned go on the stack. (See rule 410,
“Handling Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player gets priority and players may play spells
and abilities.

310.2. A player may divide a creature’s combat damage as he or she chooses among the legal
recipients. Dividing combat damage is subject to the following restrictions:

[*]310.2a Each attacking creature and each blocking creature will assign combat damage equal to its
power. Creatures that would assign 0 or less damage this way don’t assign combat damage at
all.

[*]310.2b An unblocked attacking creature that’s attacking a player will assign all its combat damage
to the defending player. An unblocked attacking creature that’s attacking a planeswalker will
assign all its combat damage to the planeswalker it’s attacking. If the creature isn’t currently
attacking anything (if, for example, it was attacking a planeswalker that has left play), it will
assign no combat damage.

[*]310.2c A blocked creature will assign combat damage, divided as its controller chooses, to the
creatures blocking it. If no creatures are currently blocking it (if, for example, they were
destroyed or removed from combat), it will assign no combat damage.

[*]310.2d A blocking creature will assign combat damage, divided as its controller chooses, to the
attacking creatures it’s blocking. If it isn’t currently blocking any creatures (if, for example, they
were destroyed or removed from combat), it will assign no combat damage.

[*]310.2e An effect that states a creature deals its combat damage in a different manner than normal
affects the assignment of combat damage.

310.3. Although combat-damage assignments go on the stack as an object, they aren’t spells or abilities,
so they can’t be countered.

310.4. Combat damage resolves as an object on the stack. When it resolves, it’s all dealt at once, as
originally assigned. The combat damage object is then removed from the stack and ceases to exist.
After combat damage finishes resolving, the active player gets priority.

[*]310.4a Combat damage is dealt as it was originally assigned even if the creature dealing damage is
no longer in play, its power has changed, or the creature receiving damage has left combat.

[*]310.4b The source of the combat damage is the creature as it currently exists, if it’s still in play. If
it’s no longer in play, its last known information is used.

[*]310.4c If a creature or planeswalker that was assigned combat damage is no longer in play, or is
neither a creature nor planeswalker, the damage assigned to it isn’t dealt.

310.5. At the start of the combat damage step, if at least one attacking or blocking creature has first
strike (see rule 502.2) or double strike (see rule 502.28), creatures without first strike or double
strike don’t assign combat damage. Instead of proceeding to end of combat, the phase gets a second
combat damage step (see rule 310.1) to handle the remaining creatures. In the second combat
damage step, any attackers and blockers that didn’t assign combat damage in the first step, plus any
creatures with double strike, assign their combat damage.

[Jessica]

@Izawwlgood: why crappy?
It effectivly doubles the power of any creature, can act just like any normal first striker (in that it can kill creatures before they hit them), and can also trigger "when combat damage is dealt to a player" and other sabotage creatures twice. Also, pump spells and the like are twice as effective.

[headprogrammingczar]

can also trigger "when combat damage is dealt to a player" and other sabotage creatures twice.

WOW! I never noticed that.
*makes note to self*

[Jessica]

Yup. I remember people combining jitte with the boros doublestriker in Ravnica.

[Izawwlgood]

I totally appreciate the use of "when dealing damage" happening twice (I played a ninja deck for a while), but the ability seems a cobbled function of a few other skills, and as such doesn't strike me as a very innovative creature ability, like say flying or first strike. That said I know magics been aroung a while and is probably running out of stuff to stick on creatures (comon, shadow?!? What were they thinking?) but I'd hope for a bit more originality. Whatever the usage of "when dealing damage" is probably the most useful portion. Otherwise, I'd just say double the creature power and be done with it.

[Amnesiasoft]

slightly different but important... sorry magic makes me pedantic.

Well sorry. I just grabbed that off the top of my head and haven't played magic in a while

[Jack21222]

slightly different but important... sorry magic makes me pedantic.

Magic taught me how to be a rules-lawyer in many things at life. I'm a salesman working on 100% commission in a retail environment, and I rules-lawyer the commission rules. A few times I've taken a sale that technically should have had my name on it when morally maybe not so much.

I was a level 2 DCI judge back in the day...

[rrwoods]

slightly different but important... sorry magic makes me pedantic.

Magic taught me how to be a rules-lawyer in many things at life. I'm a salesman working on 100% commission in a retail environment, and I rules-lawyer the commission rules. A few times I've taken a sale that technically should have had my name on it when morally maybe not so much.

I was a level 2 DCI judge back in the day...

I hear that. I know more about the rules for this game than any person should ever wish to know, mostly due to a project I'm working on and in part due to me being a L1 judge. (Nowadays L2 is harder to get since L2's can train L0's.)

For example: You control two Chains of Mephistopheles and a Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar. You play Prosperity with X=7. What happens? I can answer questions like this without thinking about them. No one on the planet should be able to do this. Ever.

[Jessica]

Since I don't remember what those cards do, I have no idea what would happen.
I probably wouldn't know even if I did know what those cards did

[rrwoods]

Since I don't remember what those cards do, I have no idea what would happen.
I probably wouldn't know even if I did know what those cards did

I... I didn't even think about that.

...

*cries*

I think about this game WAY too much.

[Jessica]

Well, prosperity is "all players draw x cards". that's easy.
I know that chains is some sort of sacrifice card, but I have no idea what the wording is.
I don't know tomorrow at all.

Edit: I've looked up the cards.
It should be (from what I remember), you stack the 3 replacement effects (most likely so that Tomorrow is on top), which means you won't get chains'd. Your opponent will discard 2 cards before they draw each of the 7 cards, and if they run out of cards in hand, they mill 1 card instead.

So, if your opponent has 7 cards, they'll discard all 7 cards, and mill 4 from their library (I think).

[Kag]

I am not a judge:

If you stack the replacement effects that way, Tomorrow will keep you from ever actually drawing a card, but the effect from Chains is still on the stack.

Also, chains is errata'd; the oracle text has you drawing for every discard, so your opponent drops 14 cards into the graveyard overall, but will have the same size hand they started with.

[Xeio]

You don't "stack" replacement effects. The owner if the effect being replaced chooses which one happens. Anyone who would choose anything but Tomorrow is kinda crazy (discard two, draw 1; or choose one of the top 3 into your hand).

419.6a A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each
event.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads “If a
creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that
damage to that creature or player instead.” A creature that normally deals 2 damage
will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.

And the relevant rule for chains if anyone is curious:

419.9a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event
affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or
the affected player chooses one to apply. If any of those effects are self-replacement effects (see
rule 419.6d), one of them must be chosen. If not, but any of those effects would modify under
whose control an object would come into play, one of them must be chosen. Otherwise, any of
the applicable effects may be chosen. Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is
repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be
applicable) until there are no more left to apply. If two or more players have to make these
choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 103.4).

I used to hang out on the MTG Rules boards, a lot...

EDIT: Also fun was hanging out on the YMTC boards, even thought nobody that actually makes cards is allowed to read that board.

[Kag]

I was looking for a rule about it. I missed that one.

It would still be "discard 2, draw 2," if you picked Chains, though. The oracle text has the card replacing the draw action with a "discard, then draw, or mill one if you have no cards to discard."

[Xeio]

I was looking for a rule about it. I missed that one.

It would still be "discard 2, draw 2," if you picked Chains, though. The oracle text has the card replacing the draw action with a "discard, then draw, or mill one if you have no cards to discard."

No, it would be Discard 2, Look at Top 3, pick one.

Draw Card Effect >
Chains Replaces: You discard a card, draw card effect >
Chains Replaces: You discard a card, draw card effect >
Tommorrow Replaces: Look at top 3, choose one

Hence why you should just do tommorrow first always (unless you want to discard cards for some reason, like madness?).

[Kag]

Oh, one chains invokes the other. Right.

You could also choose to have the first chains invoke Tomorrow, of course.

I feel like the rule for replacement effects needs badly to be reworded. I read the whole thing like five times and I still didn't get it right, apparently.

[Jessica]

Ah, so I was effectivly right with wrong terminology
when multiple replacement effects trigger, they all go off, but you choose the order. They then go off in that order, and chain until they can't go off anymore.
So, if you tomorrow, you don't draw anymore, the chains don't go off.
if you chains once, then tomorrow, you discard once, then tomorrow.
if you chains twice, then tomorrow, you discard twice, then tomorrow (look at 3 choose one)
since tomorrow isn't "look at the top 3, put back in any order and draw", it doesn't chain to the Chains. it replaces the draw with something that isn't a draw, so the replacement of Chains doesn't go off.

on the opponent (since tomorrow isn't symetrical) they just get two instances of Chains.

[rrwoods]

Basically your opponent gets to drop his hand most likely (since he's discarding two to draw one, seven times) and you're in the clear -- with what is most likely 7 great cards out of your top 21.

I got asked this question when I first started testing for my L1 certification. The local L3 goes, "so how well do you think you know the rules?" I said I thought I knew them basically inside and out. He smirks and says "should I just toss one of my hardest questions at you?" "Sure, why not..." And this was it.

The way replacement effects work is that if there are multiple replacement effects that could apply to a single event, the affected player or affected object's controller chooses one to apply, then the resultant events are performed. If more replacements could apply, rinse and repeat. This gets really fun if you're being dealt noncombat damage and control a planeswalker and a creature that says "all damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to ~this~ instead": You choose which of [planeswalker built-in optional redirect] or [redirect to creature] applies. If you pick your creature, it gets hit; otherwise, your opponents gets to choose whether their spell/ability hits you or your planeswalker. If they pick you... it hits your creature

[Jessica]

Makes sense

So, I started drafting again on MTGO. I got horribly stomped in the Masters edition 2 draft and the Shards draft. but, I think I could have done better in the shards draft but I disconnected in the first pack, and thus lost my choice for a good half the first pack. That and if I had picked better cards...

[Xeio]

So, I started drafting again on MTGO. I got horribly stomped in the Masters edition 2 draft and the Shards draft. but, I think I could have done better in the shards draft but I disconnected in the first pack, and thus lost my choice for a good half the first pack. That and if I had picked better cards...

I've never been all that great at drafts. I can do ok, but I prefer casual games and constructed formats (I loved the leagues before 3.0, but they weren't working for a good 2-3 months when it came out, I assume they fixed it by now though...).