Scouts and Guides

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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Lissa
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Re: Scouting

Postby Lissa » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:55 pm UTC

I've been in the girl scouts for about as long as I can remember, and am currently scout leader for a group of kids that are around 9 or 10 years old now. It's quite fun, I've got lots of friends there and the camps are awesome. Our group doesn't care much about religion, and definately not about sexuality. There is, naturally, mention of God in some songs we sing and such, but as far as I know few of the people are religious.

I was at the world jamboree in England in 2007, and hope to go to the next one(in 2011?) in Sweden as well.

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Re: Scouting

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:58 pm UTC

For both sides of the UK system, as nobody else has done it yet.

UK Guides
5-7 Rainbows
7-10 Brownies
10-14 Guides
14-26 Rangers

UK Scouts
6-8 Beavers
8-10.5 Cubs
10.5-14 Scouts
14-18 Explorers
18-26 Network
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Re: Scouting

Postby Luthen » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:19 pm UTC

You can get your Eagle at 13? Well, then maybe it's not as equivalent to a Queen Scout as I thought. You can't start that until your in Venturers (14.5/15) and takes at least a year so you can't get until you're 15.5/16 and even then most get it just before they turn 18 and are kicked up to Rovers.
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Re: Scouting

Postby doogly » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:32 pm UTC

Well, you can do it, but this just causes all the other scouts nearby to figure your troop is an eagle mill. Likewise if they give it to everyone who stays till they are 18 as a matter of fact.
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Re: Scouting

Postby Luthen » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:57 pm UTC

Oh, then it's even more different. There's no entitlement to a Queen Scout for staying to the end.
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Re: Scouting

Postby markiiu » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 pm UTC

Still in Venturers (4th year), will probably join rovers next year.
You guys have it bad with the pseudo-religious stuff, we have one advisor who does a prayer thing at the end of our camps, but he at least keeps it sub 30 seconds (We have quite a few atheists). Mixed gender group, too, we're probably 1/3 female and 28 people in our venturer crew. We have social camps though, where you just drive up to the campsites and chill with other groups, that may explain the high registration. (Scouts Canada, Fraser valley council)
Also, I never bothered with badges/achievements.

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doogly
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Re: Scouting

Postby doogly » Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:25 pm UTC

There's no entitlement to an eagle scout either. You certainly still have to complete your service projects and such. In some troops the leaders just get very helpful. You can compare theactual requirements, that is probably best. The main thing is the service project; it is not just a community service thing, you have to show significant leadership and management in getting it done. You will likely have all the merit badges and have been an officer by the time you are at that stage.
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Re: Scouting

Postby InfamousAnarchist » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:14 am UTC

I am now a Life Scout (US), and the SPL of my troop. It's pretty cool. I am not thrilled with Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but go with the mindset that you can't complain if you can't find a better way.
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Re: Scouting

Postby keeneal » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:14 am UTC

doogly wrote:Gays and atheists are not allowed to be adult leaders or youth members of the Boy Scouts of America under current national policy. It's problematic. I'm glad they are not so backwards in Australia.

SecondTalon wrote:It should be noted that the Boy Scout ranks.. at least last I knew.. only have an age requirement for the first one and an age maximum for Eagle. Everything else is just a time requirement (ie Must Be Star for X Months before you can become Life)


These aren't exactly true.

The BSA permits members to be atheists, but (on a minor technicality that's only a formality in many troops) doesn't allow them to advance in rank, as they need to "Live up to the Scout Oath and Law" in their daily lives. Some, but not all, troops claim that you can't do this as an atheist. Many Troops won't award an Eagle Award to an atheist, but this case is rare (sadly, not rare enough). Adult leaders (and maybe Venturers but NOT Boy Scouts) do need to sign the Declaration of Religious Principles (available at http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2008/05/b ... ciple.html).

Gay leaders are not allowed in the Boy Scouts of America to help shield the BSA from child abuse lawsuits, which I believe is a reasonable method on their part, although obviously unfair to many people. Gay Youth Members ARE allowed, so long as the normal rules governing the troop are followed. Refusing membership or advancement to a youth member solely on the basis of sexual orientation is prohibited, according to my understanding of official National policy. Please cite something if you believe I'm wrong; I'm more than pretty sure I'm not. Sometimes the Chartering Organization places pressure on Troops to do so, as they tend to be churches and the like. This is unfortunate, effective. Some troops do institute "don't ask don't tell" policies, as openly gay scouts are magnets for harassment from scouts and complaints from adults. This is also unfortuante, but if a Scout causes actual disturbances, the Troop Committee is within its rights to implement such a policy.

SecondTalon seems to know what's what on the Ranks thing, but she makes it sound like you just have to wait; this is untrue. For the benifit of those who aren't familiar with the BSA:
There are length-of-term requirements for the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout Awards ("hold one of these leadership positions for at least six months since becoming an X scout" is the usual formula), but they all have other requirements as well. By the way, the feasible way I can think of to earn your Eagle by age 13 is to dual enroll in two troops, and serve in leadership capacities at both. I find that many people frown upon this.



/defense mode.
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Re: Scouting

Postby doogly » Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:50 am UTC

It is a condition of membership which seems to only come up in litigation as a matter of advancement. I think the distinction you make is not actually valid. When a troop or council does not uphold the national policy, it is not because the national has a policy of letting the troop or council do this. They are just getting away with it. The official national position is definitely to exclude gays and atheists.
http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp
http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp

openly gay scouts are magnets for harassment from scouts and complaints from adults. This is also unfortuante, but if a Scout causes actual disturbances, the Troop Committee is within its rights to implement such a policy.

Being harassed is now equivalent to causing a disturbance?
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Re: Scouting

Postby LL Cool J » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:19 am UTC

I was a scout! I did cubs and scouts, but quit when it was time to go up to Venturers. We had some fun times, mostly involving camps and running around at night. I like hiking and that sort of thing. I quit when school got busy, and I got tired of being in charge of a group of very high-maintenance teenage boys. I was the only girl in cubs for a while, which was great - I always got my own dome tent, while the boys slept in leaky A-Frame tents that fell over if they put them up badly.

My favourite activity was NightHawk, I think - an overnight hike with a series of checkpoints. It was always held somewhere cold, and inevitably it always rained. We weren't the most conscientious of groups, but we did have a lot of fun. I can still tie most of the knots and know my first aid reasonably well.

My dad is a scout leader, and I don't know how other groups are run, but here anyone who wants to join is welcome.
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Re: Scouting

Postby philsov » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:38 am UTC

By the way, the feasible way I can think of to earn your Eagle by age 13 is to dual enroll in two troops, and serve in leadership capacities at both. I find that many people frown upon this.


There's a 6 month req on Star, Life, and Eagle.

This means you need 18 months to knock those out. Staying patrol leader/den chief/librarian/chaplain aide is easy. Six months from scout to 1st class is easily done. Less than three years from bridging is possible, but, again, it's usually the parents doing a lot of the work.

On Topic: Eagle Scout, June 16 2006 (16 years old); former SPL, OATR, JASM. Proud member of the Order of the Arrow, bound by the bars of Brotherhood for probably two years now. Florida Sea Base (SCUBA Adventure) two times, Philmont once. Horseshoe Scout Reservation Camp Staff for the past 5 years; I'm the Ass't Director of the first-year camper program this year.


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Re: Scouting

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:30 pm UTC

Any UK Scouts/Guides out there? I seem to be the only one so far, which is a bit of a shame.

Anybody else planning to try to get on IST for Sweden 2011?
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Re: Scouting

Postby Nemphael » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:22 pm UTC

I used to be a scout. It was... seven years ago, from the time I was seven to twelve, so my terminology may be fuzzy.

It was five years, I guess: two as a cub, one "on trial" and then two (one and a half) after getting accepted into the clan. The first three were lots of fun - first, we had two adult leaders and then we were split into groups to be prepared for joining the clan. After that, everybody was spread amongst the different packs in our clan. I was in Eagle or Hawk... some majestic bird's name.

I had been reading Donald Duck and used to marvel at the The Junior Woodchucks. My pack was not like that. It was composed of a hierarchy: leader <- second in command <- members. Most often, some leader from another group joined us. There were no adults. At the time I joined, the leader was barely 16 or so. What did we do? Go on trips, light random bonfires and blow up propane boxes. Once in a while, we'd give it a shot at some badges. Except for me, noone used to wear their uniforms. Some wore their scarfs. The leaders put laxatives in our food.

Needless to say, I eventually quit.

I've been thinking of rejoining, hoping for it to be more serious, but I don't really know.

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Re: Scouting

Postby charl.ie » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:51 pm UTC

Mmmm, Pi wrote:Any UK Scouts/Guides out there? I seem to be the only one so far, which is a bit of a shame.
I'm here, you're not the only one. Been through beavers (back with the horrible grey uniforms), Cubs and Scouts. Did explorers for a while, but one of the leaders left and it then became more of a youth club. I also help lead at my local cub pack, which is cool (although they really smell).
Mmmm, Pi wrote:Anybody else planning to try to get on IST for Sweden 2011?
No, what's this?

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Re: Scouting

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:11 pm UTC

Cool, glad there's somebody else out there. Yeah, I remember the horrible grey beaver uniforms - my brother was one. With the new uniform the Ranger rugby shirt looks really similar.

Sorry, I should have been a bit more specific, I was talking about the next World Scout Jamboree. I'm hoping to try for International Service Team for it, although as a Guide not a Scout it might make it a bit difficult.
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Re: Scouting

Postby keeneal » Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:18 am UTC

doogly wrote:It is a condition of membership which seems to only come up in litigation as a matter of advancement. I think the distinction you make is not actually valid. When a troop or council does not uphold the national policy, it is not because the national has a policy of letting the troop or council do this. They are just getting away with it. The official national position is definitely to exclude gays and atheists.
http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-to-god-cases-224.asp
http://www.bsalegal.org/morally-straight-cases-225.asp


I stand corrected; I was speaking from my experiences with my troop, council, and the council I work for, and what they told me policy is.

doogly wrote:[quote=keeneal]]openly gay scouts are magnets for harassment from scouts and complaints from adults. This is also unfortuante, but if a Scout causes actual disturbances, the Troop Committee is within its rights to implement such a policy.

Being harassed is now equivalent to causing a disturbance?[/quote]

yeah.... that came out wrong. The kids doing the harassing are obviously the ones causing the disturbance... but the openly gay Scout is still the catalyst for it. Which is awful, of course, but true. If he weren't openly gay, he wouldn't be made fun of. What I meant was more along the lines of "the committee may choose to (and has the right to) implement such a policy to prevent future harassment"... but if gay youth aren't allowed in the troop at all, obviously the point is moot. My apologies for misspeaking.
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Lissa
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Re: Scouting

Postby Lissa » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:13 pm UTC

charl.ie wrote:
Mmmm, Pi wrote:Anybody else planning to try to get on IST for Sweden 2011?
No, what's this?

http://www.worldscoutjamboree.se/
and yeah, I'm planning to go there :)

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Re: Scouting

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

I've never been a scout, but have taught hundreds of them to kayak or canoe, as a favour to some people I know; I'm not sure wheather I regret not being one; I suspect it would have curtailed the number of really crazy experiences I had in my teens, which would not nesseceraly have been a bad thing, but would certainly have left me a more fragile personality.
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Re: Scouting

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:55 pm UTC

Just a bit of a nitpick, can we have Guiding added to the thread title? Would be nice to make sure the guides are welcome in here too.

I feel I've gained so much as a result of being in Guides. I've met some really great friends, of all ages, I've been places I'd never even heard off, I've done things I'd have never had a chance to do otherwise. I've also learnt the amazing skills of team leadership, getting along with people you wouldn't normally talk to and lots of other things, not just how to light fires and tie knots (never really learnt that one).
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Re: Scouting

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:06 pm UTC

keeneal wrote:yeah.... that came out wrong. The kids doing the harassing are obviously the ones causing the disturbance... but the openly gay Scout is still the catalyst for it. Which is awful, of course, but true. If he weren't openly gay, he wouldn't be made fun of. What I meant was more along the lines of "the committee may choose to (and has the right to) implement such a policy to prevent future harassment"... but if gay youth aren't allowed in the troop at all, obviously the point is moot. My apologies for misspeaking.
Man, if those black people just weren't so black, there wouldn't be any racism!

You're still putting the problem on the gay kid. It's not the gay kid's fault the other kids suck.

keeneal wrote: By the way, the feasible way I can think of to earn your Eagle by age 13 is to dual enroll in two troops, and serve in leadership capacities at both. I find that many people frown upon this.
That.. kinda seems to fly in the face of a lot of the Boy Scout ideals -ie cheatin' the system to get ahead. Of course, there's really nothing in the law that says "Don't be a dick"

You just have to be nice about it.
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Re: Scouting

Postby suffer-cait » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:01 pm UTC

TheKrikkitWars wrote:I suspect it would have curtailed the number of really crazy experiences I had in my teens, which would not nesseceraly have been a bad thing, but would certainly have left me a more fragile personality.
i'm not sure what you mean by this but i dun quite believe it.

and i am fully for putting guides in the title. can i do this or is a mod needed?
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Re: Scouting

Postby keeneal » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:13 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
keeneal wrote:yeah.... that came out wrong. The kids doing the harassing are obviously the ones causing the disturbance... but the openly gay Scout is still the catalyst for it. Which is awful, of course, but true. If he weren't openly gay, he wouldn't be made fun of. What I meant was more along the lines of "the committee may choose to (and has the right to) implement such a policy to prevent future harassment"... but if gay youth aren't allowed in the troop at all, obviously the point is moot. My apologies for misspeaking.
Man, if those black people just weren't so black, there wouldn't be any racism!

You're still putting the problem on the gay kid. It's not the gay kid's fault the other kids suck.


Didn't say I liked it (in fact, I think "which is awful" implies that I actively dislike it... but whatever). I was just saying that the troop committees have that power in the framework used in the BSA. And by the way, yeah: if blacks/women/homosexuals/jews/*insert minority here* didn't exist in our society, the corresponding form of bigotry wouldn't, either. Does that mean we should get rid of them? Of course not. Does everyone in a position of power (even so paltry a form of power as a seat on a Boy Scout troop committee) think clearly? No; many of these people see keeping people in the closet as a way of solving the problem (harassment of children, not the fact that those being abused are gay). Would you rather that they keep the troop from falling apart by simply expelling gay members? I'd say that a don't-ask-don't-tell policy is the lesser of two evils here.

SecondTalon wrote:
keeneal wrote: By the way, the feasible way I can think of to earn your Eagle by age 13 is to dual enroll in two troops, and serve in leadership capacities at both. I find that many people frown upon this.
That.. kinda seems to fly in the face of a lot of the Boy Scout ideals -ie cheatin' the system to get ahead. Of course, there's really nothing in the law that says "Don't be a dick"

You just have to be nice about it.


Again, I, and the majority of people that I know through Scouting don't approve of this (just like the majority of us don't approve of the national policy regarding gays). Now, like others have said, it is possible to earn your Eagle that quickly in a legitimate manner, but it would require entering right at age 11, earning first class in 6 months, and doing Star, Life, and Eagle in 6 months each; not an impossible task, but certainly a very difficult one. The people who do the dual-enrollment thing (and I know of at least a few) are, in my opinion, cheating the system and probably don't deserve the award. I don't like saying that explicitly in a Scouting thread, because there's a good chance one of those people would see it, so I avoid the conflict.
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Re: Scouting

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:39 pm UTC

suffer-cait wrote:
TheKrikkitWars wrote:I suspect it would have curtailed the number of really crazy experiences I had in my teens, which would not nesseceraly have been a bad thing, but would certainly have left me a more fragile personality.
i'm not sure what you mean by this but i dun quite believe it.

and i am fully for putting guides in the title. can i do this or is a mod needed?


As a direct result of my choice to become so involved in paddling, I've had a variety of brilliant and indeed quite insane experiences... When I compare with my close friend who adopted scouting to the same extent and at a simmilar time*, I would never have had those experiences, mainly because I wouldn't have been in an environment which is created for and by highly adventurous adults, frequently of curious life experience. This helped alter some fairly serious issues I had with personality, in a way that only a combination of being told to man up and being constantly exposed to new things with the expectation I'd deal with them in an adult way can.

I'm not saying that Scouting is bad; far from it; simply that in hindsight my not getting involved was every bit as beneficial as becoming involved would have been, I suspect my father's encouragement to just go and do the things I wanted to be good at and get involved at the grass roots level rather than through a social intermediary was him seeing the potential benefit of both situations.

*It was at her behest that I ended up coaching at least a half dozen different scout groups from round the area, something that was rewarding, but not really my thing.
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Re: Scouts and Guides

Postby suffer-cait » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:16 pm UTC

ah, i see what you mean, here to do all the extream adeventuous stuff, you should probably be in scouts, cause they're the ones with the programs to help you do so cheaply. because there isn't so much to do on the islands.
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Re: Scouts and Guides

Postby Mmmm, Pi » Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:34 pm UTC

Thanks for the addition of Guides!

If I had wanted to do an activity that Guides did on my own more regularly, then I would have joined another group to do just that. Like I did with my archery group.
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Scouting

Postby Alseimik » Tue May 11, 2010 10:25 pm UTC

Just wondering, is there any scouts on this forum?

We're (yes, I am one) 38,5 million on a global scale, so that means that there should be a possibility that I'm not alone?

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Re: Scouting

Postby femtometer » Wed May 12, 2010 4:32 am UTC

Gold Award 2004 8)

I was also a Venture Scout leader for a while afterwards.

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Re: Scouting

Postby GoodRudeFun » Wed May 12, 2010 4:42 am UTC

Not usually my class of choice.



But I prefer healing, so I'll go cleric.
Oh. Well that's alright then.


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