Hugh Laurie:A Real American Doctor FROM AMERICA (House M.D.)

[Amarantha]

Why does everything on TV relating to Deaf people always suck?

I had the same reaction. As soon as the episode began I was wondering which direction they'd take it. Predictably, it went in the "Deaf people are broken and should get fixed" direction. Tossers.

[Ryom]

What's wrong with believing that a person who hasn't experienced the joy that something like music can provide is missing out on a large part of the whole life experience? Imagine life having never heard any of your favorites songs. Being blind is even worse... I'm still inspired by something as simple and commonplace as a sunset.

If the patient has the opportunity to have those senses returned to them...

[natraj]

What's wrong with believing that a person who hasn't experienced the joy that something like music can provide is missing out on a large part of the whole life experience? Imagine life having never heard any of your favorites songs. Being blind is even worse... I'm still inspired by something as simple and commonplace as a sunset.

If the patient has the opportunity to have those senses returned to them...

There is nothing wrong with believing that. You can believe that all you want.

When you go against someone's will -- someone who has not only not given consent but explicitly told you not to do so -- and perform invasive surgery that drastically changes them in a way they do not want -- then it becomes a Really Freaking Terrible thing. You do NOT get to make choices for people like that.

And when doing so is painted, as it was in this ridiculously offensive episode, as House really being altruistic and Doing The Right Thing For Once even if he just went about it the wrong way, that is pretty sick.

It doesn't matter what anyone's opinions are on deafness and whether someone is really totally "missing out". It matters that they remove someone's bodily autonomy and do major surgery on them against their wishes.

And the fact that the show ended with his mother basically overriding his wishes to force him into it, too, because, well, since he didn't want it clearly that just means he's stupid/crazy/incapable of making his own decisions is just reinforcing the ridiculous ablist theme of the whole episode. It infuriated me and basically every other Deaf person whose opinion of it I have heard.

[Ryom]

He wasn't old enough when he lost his hearing to remember it. Therefore he wasn't making a fully informed decision. He was letting emotions and snap judgments get in the way of common sense. I'd say his mother did him a favor. He can have his implant removed when he turns 18 and go back to being deaf and he'll be making an informed decision.

His mother made the right choice. House made an unethical choice, but did the kid a favor regardless, especially since the procedure was entirely reversible.

[natraj]

He wasn't old enough when he lost his hearing to remember it. Therefore he wasn't making a fully informed decision. He was letting emotions and snap judgments get in the way of common sense. I'd say his mother did him a favor. He can have his implant removed when he turns 18 and go back to being deaf and he'll be making an informed decision.

His mother made the right choice. House made an unethical choice, but did the kid a favor regardless.

No. They had clearly had this discussion before, since going by the conversation between him and his mother, it was obviously something they'd spoken about and he'd decided long before ever getting sick.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you aren't Deaf, and therefore have no idea the pressure Deaf people are put under by hearing people with no idea what our experiences are like and yet think that they somehow can make "informed decisions" on our behalf. It is obvious he wasn't making a "snap judgement" since it was something that had come up in his life before. Probably many times, since in general Deaf people are highly pressured to do everything we can to become More Like Hearing People.

His mother made a choice to deny him control over his own body, going against an agreement she'd already made with him. That is the same ablist crap we have to put up with all the time. Hearing people who think they somehow have rights to tell us what to do with our bodies, despite the fact that, never being in our position, they can't make informed decisions about anything.

(Not to mention the other fact that cochlear implants just don't work that way, but were made to look like they work that way to make it look even more like the Stupid Deaf Person Just Doesn't Know What's Good For Him.)

[Ryom]

He went deaf when he was 4 years old. I doubt him and his mother had much of a discussion about it beforehand. House is fiction, in this fiction the cochlear implant gives him semi-normal hearing. Quite a worthwhile prosthetic if you ask me.

He can already sign and read lips, what's wrong with being able to hear as well. Theoretically, it could save his life one day. Senses are handy to have. It's considered a disability for a reason. If he wants to yank it out when he turns 18, then that's his business. But for now, his mother made the right call.

[FlammableD]

Why does everything on TV relating to Deaf people always suck?

I had the same reaction. As soon as the episode began I was wondering which direction they'd take it. Predictably, it went in the "Deaf people are broken and should get fixed" direction. Tossers.

Without wanting to sound offensive (I'm sure there is a far far better way to word this, but I can't think of it), isn't that the definition of deafness? They lack a major sense, and so are, in a way, broken?

Not that I'm saying that we should arrest every deaf person and give them an implant. Besides, House was clearly being a prick by giving the kid the implant, good reasons or not, and the mother was clearly being painted in a similar manner when she forced him to keep it at the end. Should have been up to the kid.

Regardless, it's TV. If every doctor on TV had to abide strictly by the guidelines, House wouldn't exist.

[natraj]

He went deaf when he was 4 years old. I doubt him and his mother had much of a discussion about it beforehand. House is fiction, in this fiction the cochlear implant gives him semi-normal hearing. Quite a worthwhile prosthetic if you ask me.

He can already sign and read lips, what's wrong with being able to hear as well. Theoretically, it could save his life one day. Senses are handy to have. It's considered a disability for a reason. If he wants to yank it out when he turns 18, then that's his business. But for now, his mother made the right call.

Uh, except for the part where he and his mother talked about the fact that they had discussed it before (not before he went deaf, just before that hospital stay) and had clearly come to the conclusion he didn't want one.

And what is wrong with being able to hear is that he didn't want to get the surgery that would make that happen (which is fairly hit-or-miss in terms of actually being able to give people functional hearing, does not just magically make you hear overnight -- it takes weeks of recovery and then months to years of therapy to be able to use it properly) and he clearly did not want a risky invasive surgery that would potentially isolate him from his community and make his life worse.

Just because you as a hearing person think that hearing is so vitally important doesn't mean that everyone does.

If you don't see what is sick and wrong with forcing unnecessary invasive surgery on someone who has made it explicitly clear they do not want it, then I really don't know how to make that any clearer to you.

[Ryom]

What, you are right and everyone else is wrong? If he wakes up one day and can hear, it's a miracle and a wonderful thing. If he wakes up one day with a cochlear implant, its a travesty and a terrible thing.

[natraj]

What, you are right and everyone else is wrong? If he wakes up one day and can hear, it's a miracle and a wonderful thing. If he wakes up one day with a cochlear implant, its a travesty and a terrible thing.

He didn't miraculously wake up one day with a cochlear implant, he had surgery done against his will to put one in. You seriously can't see that distinction?

And cochlear implants are not miracle make-you-hear things. They take months to years of therapy to make them able to provide a rough approximation of hearing, which may or may not ever even work right, especially not when implanted as late in life as that kid got his.

(Which is completely irrelevant anyway, because even if they were some miraculous way to completely recover hearing, you still can't just force invasive surgery on people against their will. Not even if you think it is good for them. It's not a case of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong", it's a case of the person whose body is in question is right and everyone else is wrong.)

[Ati]

Natraj is, of course, correct that you should not perform surgery on people involuntarily, except in some very rare and contrived-sounding cases. It was illegal and unethical for House to perform the surgery without consent from either the patient or the parent.

HOWEVER. Deafness is a disability. It is a malfunction of the body. It is, of course, every adult's right to harm themselves or keep themselves disabled if they so wish. I could care less if you decided to hack your leg off (or prevent a new one from being re-attached). Doesn't mean the kid wasn't being an idiot. And before you raise the question about why the four human senses are the epitome of perfection, they're not. Do you know what I'd give to be able to sense X-rays? To feel the electromagnetic spectrum?

The difference, of course, is that deafness is (imperfectly, for now) somewhat correctable using modern technology. The others I just mentioned are not. Yet. I'll be first in line when they are. Being able to hear, see, smell, and taste stuff is really nice. I've no problem calling anyone an idiot who would turn down the ability to expand their perception of the world in radical new ways.

[Ryom]

And I've already stated what House did was unethical. But his mother made the right call in making him keep the implant. Legally and ethically she was right. And in the world of House M.D., the implant gives him almost normal hearing, which only makes it even more useful.

[gmalivuk]

Legally and ethically she was right.

No, legally she was permitted to make that decision. That does not make it right. I am legally able to decide not to vaccinate my kids because I believe some stupid celebrities who think it's linked to autism, but it doesn't mean I'd be smart or right to make that decision.

And the same goes for ethics. Just because it's what you think you would have wanted in that situation, does not make it right for one person to force another person to undergo major surgery against their will.

It is not ethically right to alter people against their will so they fit your definition of "fixed" or "whole" or whateverthefuck. If it were, and I thought you were ugly, then it would be okay for me to give you plastic surgery without your consent, right?

deafness is (imperfectly, for now) somewhat correctable using modern technology. The others I just mentioned are not. Yet.

That's not true. There has been work with linking sight to a device placed on the tongue, and presumably the technology could be adjusted to work with different wavelengths or echolocation or something else. Why have you not elected to have that procedure done? Why are you not wearing a vibrating belt that always tells you which way north is? That's another extra sense that we have the technological ability to impart now. How come you weren't first in line already?

[Ati]

That's not true. There has been work with linking sight to a device placed on the tongue, and presumably the technology could be adjusted to work with different wavelengths or echolocation or something else. Why have you not elected to have that procedure done? Why are you not wearing a vibrating belt that always tells you which way north is? That's another extra sense that we have the technological ability to impart now. How come you weren't first in line already?

Two things: The first is that I am trying to save up to get some non-invasively integrated hardware (bluetooth headset, HUD, throat electrodes, data glove), which would provide a platform for integrating additional senses, among other improvements. The second is that most of the hardware you just mentioned either seriously interferes with existing functions of the body (the tongue thing) or I hadn't thought of (the belt thing is actually an excellent idea, given my poor sense of direction; thank you). The other thing to consider is that, as I am a broke college student, my resources for self improvement are extremely limited.

[gmalivuk]

most of the hardware you just mentioned either seriously interferes with existing functions of the body

See, that's the thing. Cochlear implants are not complication-free, either. And the decision on whether to risk those complications for the benefit of sort of hearing should be left up to the person who will actually have the goddamn thing inside their head. Not that person's doctor. Not that person's mother. Not anyone else.

[Ati]

most of the hardware you just mentioned either seriously interferes with existing functions of the body

See, that's the thing. Cochlear implants are not complication-free, either. And the decision on whether to risk those complications for the benefit of sort of hearing should be left up to the person who will actually have the goddamn thing inside their head. Not that person's doctor. Not that person's mother. Not anyone else.

Oh, I agree completely. It's everyone's right to control what's done to their bodies. It's also my right to think the kid's an idiot for not making use of the opportunity available to him. Especially since his skull was going to be cracked anyway...

[SecondTalon]

"Gee, doc, while you're down there patching up my liver, go ahead and whack out that ol' appendix. Might as well remove it now before it causes a problem later, amirite?"

Only it's more of

"Well, I'm already elbow-deep in this kid's guts, so I might as well whack this appendix out. I mean, it could cause problems later, and we're pretty sure it's unimportant. I mean, so what that no one's signed any consent forms about it. It'll work out for the best, right?"

Or even "Hey, this kid's kinda fat too.. let's just staple his stomach, so he won't be a fatty fatty fat fuck anymore."

And then the kid's mom is totally fine that her kid had some major digestive system surgery done that's going to cause substantial changes in the quality of the kid's life and require quite a bit of adjustment before it works out. And it might not even work out the way it's supposed to.

[Sockmonkey]

I'd get myself one of these if I weren't worried about it getting ripped out if I ever needed an MRI.
http://transensing.com/blog/?p=31

[Ryom]

The only thing stopping him from getting the implant was fear. Fear that it would break his relationship with his girlfriend (hardly likely in this day and age of instant ubiquitous communications) and fear of the unknown of hearing. If your child is too terrified of needles to get his vaccines, you make him get the shot anyway, for his own good. The very same arguments against the implant could be used to argue that the child should have a say against vaccination as well.

[Amarantha]

Ryom, you're thinking of Deaf people as experiencing a lack rather than a difference, because that's how it would feel for you if you suddenly couldn't hear. Sure, technically you have something they don't. But it's ignorant to suggest that they must get that thing if they can and are idiots if they don't. How a person experiences the world and interacts with it is a huge part of their identity. Gaining a sense you've never or hardly known is not like buying a new coat. It's a huge change to all aspects of life, and it can be extremely traumatic learning how to cope with it. You're projecting a hearing person's viewpoint onto Deaf people, without having any idea what it's like to be Deaf.

Also, the fact that it's all sweetness and light in the fictional context of the story is irrelevant. Stories send messages, and the message here is reinforcing the view that all Deaf people really want implants, and those who think they don't would change their mind if they tried it. Which is bollocks.

[Ryom]

I'm done arguing, but I'd like you to realize that you're just as biased as me about it. In the end, it's just an opinion. I just hope you don't have the temerity to think your viewpoint is the only right one.

You aren't the only one here that is familiar with disability.

[natraj]

I'm done arguing, but I'd like you to realize that you're just as biased as me about it. In the end, it's just an opinion. I just hope you don't have the temerity to think your viewpoint is the only right one.

You aren't the only one here that is familiar with disability.

... I'm actually pretty okay with thinking that a viewpoint that considers people with disabilities to be competent to make judgements about their own lives and bodies rather than assuming we need abled people to do that for us is the only right one, actually.

The paternalistic ablist view that we need our bodily autonomy taken away and our lives controlled by the infinitely wiser abled people is, frankly, horrifying and sickening to me.

And, sadly, reflective of the dominant narrative in our culture, that says PWD aren't entitled to as much autonomy as abled people. It's a narrative I would really like to see gone, entirely.

[Ryom]

Amarantha has created a safespace thread that panders to your worldview. You can receive nothing but reinforcement from like-minded individuals there, which would be a more appropriate topic than this one is for that.

Disability support is great. Disability glorification is something else entirely.

[natraj]

Nobody's asking for "disability glorification" here. Just to respect people's rights to control their own gorram bodies. Is that really such a difficult concept to grasp?

[Ryom]

The person we are talking about is a minor. His parent made a medical decision for him as she was legally, and it some opinions, morally correct in doing. Is it so difficult to grasp that maybe it was the right choice? The kid has had options opened to him now, and he's not stuck with it for long if that's the final decision.

Sounds like a win-win all around.

[natraj]

Being under 18 shouldn't mean you suddenly don't have any right to control your own body. We're not talking about an infant. He was a teenager who had, based on the dialogue in the show, obviously already thought about this issue before and come to a decision on it. His body was violated. His mother then validated that violation. That's pretty sick, and yet it happens to people with disabilities all the freaking time.

[gmalivuk]

I'm done arguing

Then why don't you kindly piss off already?

[sleepygamer]

This is seriously not my area, but it's clear Ryom was/is fighting a losing battle.

TAKE THIS ANALOGY FOR INSTANCE

You, a human being, are born without the ability to fly. Imagine the majority of people in the world can fly, and they all think your should fly because flying is so fantastic.

But you are doing pretty good without the ability to fly. You've never had the ability to fly, so you couldn't give a shit. Life is p good. You have a conversation with your mother, and she tells you that you could get some MAJOR INVASIVE SURGERY to have flying implants put in. This surgery will be painful, you will have a long ass-recovery time, and there's a big chance it will do fuck all.

Now imagine FOR SOME CRAZY REASON you don't want to fly. Fair enough, that's your choice.

AND THEN YOUR MOTHER MAKES YOU GET THE PAINFUL INVASIVE SURGERY AGAINST YOUR WILL. YOU SAID NO AND SHE THREW THAT SHIT IN YOUR FACE BECAUSE SHE KNOWS JUST HOW YOU FEEL.

You'd be pretty pissed off, no? Yes. You had to get painful surgery and have to go through months of therapy only to maybe find out you can't fly ever.

LET'S JUST SAY FOR SOME CRAZY REASON YOUR BODY BELONGS TO YOU.

You want this shit OUT of you.

AND YOU ARE DENIED ONCE AGAIN BY THE ALL-KNOWING ONE BECAUSE YOU ARE A COUPLE YEARS SHORT OF AN ARBITRARY MILESTONE IN YOUR LIFE THAT MAKES YOU ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT HAPPENS TO YOURSELF.

HOW DO YOU FEEL?

PISSED.

OFF.

Now replace the bolded words with the word, hear. THAT'S THE SAME SITUATION.

*Wanders off to do something a little less srs.*

[^.*]

The person we are talking about is a minor. His parent made a medical decision for him as she was legally, and it some opinions, morally correct in doing. Is it so difficult to grasp that maybe it was the right choice? The kid has had options opened to him now, and he's not stuck with it for long if that's the final decision.

Sounds like a win-win all around.

Hmm he was 14 that's old enough to make decisions if the possible benefits outweigh the negative side. The popular "As long as they are under 18 they are their parents property and don't have more rights than a mannequin" attitude always annoys me.
Anyway it doesn't matter if you think it's useful. It's an invasive surgery and you need a recovery + training period after that (and by the way it works better for younger children), the benefit is imperfect hearing. Now I would think most people who can hear wouldn't want to miss it but it's his body, it doesn't matter if you value hearing the point is if he wants it.
I might find the abtility to shoot plasma cool and replace my hand with a plasma cannon but that doesn't mean that I could replace your hand against your will. My priorities don't matter if it's about changing you.
It's very simple: His body, his fucking decision.


Btw: awesome post sleepygamer.

[SecondTalon]

Let's move on.


*edit*

As there's apparently some confusion on this - drop it. If you want to discuss that episode, discuss the shitty medicine, heroic doses of medication House is taking, how you'd have to chew a lot of tobacco to suppress your immune system that much, or how cochlear implants cannot simply be ripped off your head after they're installed.

We're completely done discussing The Rights of The Deaf Patient vs. Magic Hollywood Hearing Berries here. You're more than welcome to start a thread in SB about it.

[Gunfingers]

I have something unrelated to discuss. Specifically, where can i get vodka ice cream.

[natraj]

I have something unrelated to discuss. Specifically, where can i get vodka ice cream.

Not sure if they have straight vodka or not because I am too lazy to check, but IMDB forums say http://www.blendsicecream.com/ <-- is liquor ice cream place.

[cephalopod9]

how cochlear implants cannot simply be ripped off your head after they're installed

I was wondering about that, don't they go inside/through the skull or something? I watched a science show about it once.

(Also kind of bugged me how it never came up that a few episodes ago House chose not to 'cure' his leg, but I guess that was kind of a filler episode, and this one seemed to have a lot of House making bad decisions).

What do you guys suppose is making him hallucinate this time?

[SecondTalon]

how cochlear implants cannot simply be ripped off your head after they're installed

I was wondering about that, don't they go inside/through the skull or something? I watched a science show about it once.

Apparently the installation requires that a depression be drilled into the skull, a device implanted, wiring from the device run to the cochlea, and a secondary device attaches externally via magnets.

Making a dramatic removal look more like someone angrily removing a magnetic nametag or clip-on earrings. Emotion's there, but the physical action looks.. lacking.

So, yeah, someone wanna start an SB thread on this?

[crowey]

I found it kind of funny that the hospital just happened to have a spare cochlear implant knocking about that they could use without lots of form filling and expence analysis...

This weeks episode was pretty weak I thought.

[j.lou]

This weeks episode was pretty weak I thought.

You mean "Under My Skin"? Yeah, I didn't exactly think it was the best either.

Spoiler:

I thought the making-out moment at the end with Cuddy was rather anticlimactic and predictable. I always feel really bad for him whenever he has to go through detox though, just 'cause it's looks like so much hell and he expresses so much more vulnerability than he usually does.

[crowey]

This weeks episode was pretty weak I thought.

You mean "Under My Skin"? Yeah, I didn't exactly think it was the best either.

Spoiler:

I thought the making-out moment at the end with Cuddy was rather anticlimactic and predictable. I always feel really bad for him whenever he has to go through detox though, just 'cause it's looks like so much hell and he expresses so much more vulnerability than he usually does.

yes and yes.

[6453893]

Spoiler:

I enjoyed the whole Amber hallucination thing. They really conveyed how distressing it would be, trying to run from something in your head. I wish they had looked more deeply into her malevolence though. I guess the whole killing Chase thing is for next season.

[godonlyknows620]

Sorry for being slow on the uptake, but can someone explain this "revelation" in the season finale to me?

Spoiler:

From what I understand, in reality the scene last episode, when House insulted Cuddy, she just left and never actually came to his apartment or anything? He imagined that they slept together, and then he thought that the Vicodin was her lipstick?

I hope I have that right.

[6453893]

Sorry for being slow on the uptake, but can someone explain this "revelation" in the season finale to me?

I hope I have that right.

Oh god god god I opened the spoiler without reading the text above it oh man I was so looking forward to the finale god dammit. I suppose I deserve it for blindly opening spoiler boxes all the damn time.