Pre-sign-up queue (for MODS)

[Gojoe]

This thread is the queue BEFORE player signups. (This thread is for people who want to MOD a game. If you are looking to PLAY a game, look at this thread.)


How this thread works:

Once a mod has an idea that has been mentioned in the discussion thread AND there is a gap in the queue, they can pop their game into the next spot in the queue. Please copy the last iteration of the queue and paste it into a new post, adding the name and mod(s) of your own game in the proper gap. It would be very helpful to also take a look and see if any games in what you have copy-pasted have ended and need to be bumped from the queue, as the queue is now user-run.



How to create a game:

Spoiler:

A quick run down on how this subforum works (in regards to creating a game):

1) A mod has an idea for a game, and posts his idea in the Discussion thread.
2) If enough people like the idea (up to the mod if they think they have enough people backing it... use common sense here please) AND there is a gap in the queue, they post in the pre-signups thread with a brief description, game size, and title for the game.
3) Once a game of the same size finishes, the mod sends it to the signups thread.
4) When the signups for a game are done, and a game of the same size has ended, the mod starts the game with a new thread!

NOTE: Games such as invitationals, and newbie games, that are modded by vets, can jump the queue, and go straight into sign-ups. Approval is needed before this can happen.

[Gojoe]

I need this post

[Gojoe]

This spot reserved.

[Gojoe]

People can now resubmit their old ideas that were either in the old queue, or in signup, here. Or people with new ideas can also submit them here. Sorry for all the crazyness atm.

[Entropy]

Alright, resubmitting Death Note, a closed setup game with 24 roles and some experimental mechanics. What do you need in terms of details for this game to be accepted?

[Gojoe]

That is perfect.

[Vieto]

Wait, Deathnote isn't even full! What about other games, such as Jurrasic park, that are full and were patiently waiting to go!

[Adacore]

I'm really not convinced this will work in purely first-come first-served mode. People are going to start feeling pretty hard done by if a game they've been working on for ages keeps getting passed over for the queue because other people get in first due to timezones or whatever. Personally I'm not at all against the voting idea, but I know Gojoe was. Alternatively, increasing the queue size wouldn't have any real negative effect that I can think of offhand.

[crucialityfactor]

I predict this will go the way of New Coke...

[Vieto]

I predict this will go the way of New Coke...

agreed.

Also:

shots on Jurassic park being the next 'first in line' game.

[korora]

I'm really not convinced this will work in purely first-come first-served mode. People are going to start feeling pretty hard done by if a game they've been working on for ages keeps getting passed over for the queue because other people get in first due to timezones or whatever. Personally I'm not at all against the voting idea, but I know Gojoe was. Alternatively, increasing the queue size wouldn't have any real negative effect that I can think of offhand.

I agree so hard. I don't see why this queue can't be, you know, a queue.

[Vieto]

If anything, the logical thing to do would have been to either let the current queue just empty out, or at least have taken the game at the front of the other queue instead of taking a new guy.

This of this as waiting in a line-up for an hour, and just as you reach the front, the line closes and a new line opens, of which the guy who just got to the line gets to the front, and you are shoved to the back.

[crucialityfactor]

I'm thinking that discussion should happen in the discussion thread...not in here...

[Entropy]

Sorry if I ninja'd people... I'll rescind the game idea for now in favor of large games who were in the signup queue longer than I

[Vieto]

Forgiven, Entropy. It's not your fault.

I'll have Jurrasic go, unless Supermegacrazy wants to go first.

[frogman]

I'm not too happy with this new queue thing. Ah, well, I'm not running this sub-forum, I don't have any say in it.

I'm re-submitting They Might Be Mafia, even though the sign-ups for it are almost already done. In my opinion this extra step seems pointless.

By the way, it is a normal-sized game (20 people)

[crucialityfactor]

No one runs the subforum. If you have a better idea for how to run things speak up. Don't just roll over if you don't agree with something.

[frogman]

Well, I think that games already in sign-ups should bypass this particular queue.

[korora]

I think that this system is over-complicated, and that it hugely over-compensates for people signing up for too many games. I suggest the following:

1. There is one queue, which is as long as it needs to be. Anyone can add a game idea to the end at any time.

2. If we have n games running at a time, then the first n games in the queue get to have signups.

3. When it's your turn to start, you have to finish filling signups and send roles within a week or you lose your spot.

4. Size of the regular games remains up to the mod's discretion.

5. Minis stay outside the queue, are limited to 12 players, and you can only join if you're alive in fewer than three other games. That was the original mini rule, and I think it got lost in the shuffle somewhere; it keeps people from abusing minis to the point that they can't participate in the full games.

[Sungura]

I fail to see korora what is different about that and what we've been doing...and what we've been doing doesn't work.

I think we should give this idea a try, although I think the games (supercrazymegawhatever and jurrassic park) which have been sitting a while should still all be first up for going. And I tihnk that's what gojoe's going to do. If this idea doesn't work, we can always try something else.

Really, if people would be responsible for their own signups and playing we wouldn't have an issue though. I could see if everyone starts playing and such, that we can revert back, as it was working fine until recently.

[korora]

In the old system, signups happened at the back of the queue: you had to fill your game before you can even be added to the list. My suggestion pushes them to the front of the queue, so you have a better sense of when you will actually start playing.

My main issue with the current system is that the queue is limited for absolutely no reason that anyone has been able to give me. I suggested in the discussion thread that it would cause problems, and the very first thing that happened was that it caused a problem, because Entropy and Vieto couldn't both put their game in the queue.

I really don't think that the recent issues with games slowing down had anything to do with how the subforum was run. People who play mafia here are generally in high school or college, and this is finals season. Of course people don't have time to play as much as usual. The problem is that people signed up for their games weeks ago, when they did have time. That's what the signup queue was meant to fix. My proposal is a middle ground between the old system and the new system, and lets people make informed decisions about whether they can handle a game now.

For the record, Gojoe has said that supermegacrazymayhem has to go through the queue again, including redoing signups. Entropy has graciously yielded his spot to JP, but I don't see why he can't put his game on a list. As soon as JP starts, it'll be first-come, first-served for the next game to sign up, and the whole thing will happen all over again.

[Adacore]

I agree this queue is needed - the problem in the past is that people were signing up months in advance so had no idea how many games they would be playing or how busy/active they would be when the games they were signing up for actually started. What I'm debating is the (imo) minor point of only allowing one game in this pre-signup queue - I think more would work better. It would self limit as well - if mods saw that there were 3-4 games of a size in the queue they wouldn't design another game of that size for a while. With the current system you can't see how many games are already vying for the single slot in each size category.

[crucialityfactor]

I think Korora's idea makes a lot of sense. The main problem I was seeing was not just too many games at once but people forgetting they had signed up for something a few months ago and not being able to play. Putting a game into a queue and then waiting until it's say 3rd from the top (or some other non-arbitrary number) before it starts taking signups makes a lot more sense then taking signups and then waiting a long time...or fighting to be the first to submit a game so you can take signups to wait until you're game is next to start and then waiting some more.

Honestly this system doesn't make sense at all. I still don't get how it works exactly.

If you look at the active game thread, SuperMegaCrazy is in there as the next game to start...but in here we have 1 game sitting as what? The next next game to start?

It just seems really convoluted at this point and yes, very unfair.

[Gojoe]

I didnt realize there was so much hate for this. The reason I dropped the other two games from the queue, is because I have not heard a peep about them, and people signed up for them SO LONG AGO that to me it appeared dead. At least people were still talking about supercrazy.

And yes, what cf said, no one runs this sub forum. If people spoke out about how this was bad, I would of not done this. The sub forum is runned by everyone. I pretend to be important by making these threads, but I am not in control, I do not even try to convince myself that I am.

If everyone thinks that the other games should go ahead, then by all means, let's do that. I just recommend they at least go through the sign-up process again, considering how long it has been since people have signed up.

Also, yes first come first serve is a bitch, but the reason I have it in place atm is because when the queue gets too long, people join it, just to reserve a spot, making it even longer, which means if there is a new mod out there, that actually has a new good idea, it will take a long time before they can try it out.

Again, if this does not work, then we can drop it, but I think we should just try to make this work, and I REALLY think it will, if we all give it a shot.

[Princess Marzipan]

I may have signed up for a while ago, but I am in fact still waiting patiently to play super mega ultra combo. Actually...I think it was the first one I've signed up for, ever. And yet I'm playing in two OTHER games right now.

[AngrySquirrel]

Okay, I'm kind of annoyed at having to wait so long to get supermegacrazymayhem started only to have to go through the que again. But if it's necessary I don't mind all that much to do sign-ups again....
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.
.
....

Ok, I lied, I'm not "kind of annoyed", I'm more leaning towards majorly pissed off about it, I've been waiting for bloody 3 months to get 1 (one!) bloody game through the que only to have to start it all over again, I already got knocked behind games that started signups later than me when the que was redone last time (it's getting quite tedious), but whatever. If new sign-ups is what needs to be done then that's what needs to be done. If I need to amputate it to fewer players, fine, that can be arranged. But if I have to wait for another 3 months and get knocked behind even more games in the que, I might get very grumpy.

[Entropy]

I think that the main issue is stemming from the fact that there were games which were going to take place in the old system which no longer guaranteed a slot in this system. Though I think that this system has the potential to work, for the sake of fairness I think that the games which were already in signups/in the queue should be queued in the appropriate slots for now, and after those run out then we can restrict the size of those slots to one pending game. Just like we are not canceling any of the currently running games because 'there are too many of them to meet the new system requirements', we should not be canceling things that were planned to run because 'there are too many of them to fit in the new queue'. After all, people put a fair amount of work into planning these games already.

[korora]

Also, yes first come first serve is a bitch, but the reason I have it in place atm is because when the queue gets too long, people join it, just to reserve a spot, making it even longer, which means if there is a new mod out there, that actually has a new good idea, it will take a long time before they can try it out.

A better solution would be to only allow each mod to have one game in the queue at a time.

Also, I still think minis should skip the queue. That's the whole reason they were invented in the first place—so the dead could get their Mafia on. As long as we uphold Only Join If You're Alive In Less Than Three Games, minis shouldn't cause issues.

[crucialityfactor]

I didnt realize there was so much hate for this. The reason I dropped the other two games from the queue, is because I have not heard a peep about them, and people signed up for them SO LONG AGO that to me it appeared dead. At least people were still talking about supercrazy.

And yes, what cf said, no one runs this sub forum. If people spoke out about how this was bad, I would of not done this. The sub forum is runned by everyone. I pretend to be important by making these threads, but I am not in control, I do not even try to convince myself that I am.

If everyone thinks that the other games should go ahead, then by all means, let's do that. I just recommend they at least go through the sign-up process again, considering how long it has been since people have signed up.

Also, yes first come first serve is a bitch, but the reason I have it in place atm is because when the queue gets too long, people join it, just to reserve a spot, making it even longer, which means if there is a new mod out there, that actually has a new good idea, it will take a long time before they can try it out.

Again, if this does not work, then we can drop it, but I think we should just try to make this work, and I REALLY think it will, if we all give it a shot.

Can you kind of explain the whole process from idea to actual game starting again for me. I really don't get it.

Sorry...I know you've posted it a few times before. It just hasn't sunk in yet for me.

Edit: Like I THOUGHT I got it before...but now I'm not so sure that I do...

[Adacore]

I believe it's as follows, once it gets settled. I may well be wrong though:

Starting state is 1 large game, 1 normal game, 2 mini games active.
1 large game, 1 normal game, 1 mini game in signups or, when signups are full, waiting to go (with a thread in pre day 1). At the moment afaik Supercrazymayhem is in this stage and shout be redoing signups. This is the stage I'm least sure about.
This queue thread has 1 large game, 1 normal game and 1 mini game waiting for the next signup slot to open.

In order to get a new game started, the sequence is:

1. Mod waits patiently for a spot to appear in the queue(s) in this thread.
2. When a slot is available, mod posts and has game added to pre-signup queue.
3. When the previous game in signups begins, the corresponding size game in the pre-signup queue moves to signups.
4. If the game gains enough signups in 24 hours (or whatever reasonably short period we set) the game goes ahead, if not then the next game in the queue gets its shot at signups.
5. When a game has full signups, it waits for the next active game in its size category to finish then the game can begin.

As I have previously implied, I'm fine with this sequence, except that I don't think we should limit the pre-signup queue to 1 game. 1 game per mod would work, possibly with a 3-4 game per size category limit as well.

Also, for completely different arguments (see the general discussion about it) I think it should be 2 normal games active at a time, not 1, but we can wait and see on that.

[Vieto]

I agree with Korora's idea of:
Game, Game, Game, maybe Game, Last Minute Sign-ups, Sign-ups, maybe sign-ups, queue, queue,...

Sure, we may have an expansive queue, but the benefits outnumber the disadvantages. Any game in the queue can cancel at any time if they change their mind, those who don't get enough interest in the time period (due to user activity, too large a game, etc) get the boot, and active, popular games can get going. The way Gojoe set it up is bound to either get a bullrush of people for the only spot on the line, or it will start a sub-queue, making the mini-queue obsolete.

I also agree that mods can't mod 2 games at once (unless 1 is a mini and the other is a large).

Of course, we just put games already full and waiting at the front of the queue.

@AS:

Forgiven, Entropy. It's not your fault.

I'll have Jurrasic go, unless Supermegacrazy wants to go first.

[Sungura]

I also agree that mods can't mod 2 games at once (unless 1 is a mini and the other is a large).

*looks around* *ducks into hiding*

I have Elemental and Invite going...first had 25 other is 20...I think they are doing fine...

[Vieto]

I also agree that mods can't mod 2 games at once (unless 1 is a mini and the other is a large).

*looks around* *ducks into hiding*

I have Elemental and Invite going...first had 25 other is 20...I think they are doing fine...

I have no doubt people can handle 2 games of the same type at once. However, it makes it easier for people to get their game going through the queue.

Also, I guess I better get the pre-game for JP going.

[Adacore]

Okay, I'm kind of annoyed at having to wait so long to get supermegacrazymayhem started only to have to go through the que again. But if it's necessary I don't mind all that much to do sign-ups again....

AS - I think Supermegacrazymayhem got to skip this process and is still in the original queue as the next game to go live. It was suggested, however, that it might be an idea to reconfirm signups as it's been queued for a couple of months now.

[frogman]

So... can I give up any hope of They Might Be Mafia ever happening?

[Entropy]

But triangle man! I want to find out what happens to triangle man!

[Vieto]

They have a fight, Triangle wins.

[Entropy]

Hey now, spoilers!

[Vieto]

Sorry.

Spoiler:

They have a fight, Triangle wins.

[Silknor]

I think the most important thing for the management of the forum (and IIRC from IRC one of the main goals of this new system), is reducing the amount of time between signups and games starting. When signups occur 2 weeks or a month (often more, I signed up for supercrazy early April) before the game starts, people don't and can't correctly anticipate how much they'll be able to participate. If you're signing up a month in advance, your best guess for how many games you'll be alive in then is probably no better than rolling a dice.

Cut the time between signups and games starting and you let players make more informed decisions about their ability to commit to a game. This leads to a more efficient outcome. In my view, and I realize this doesn't seem to be the dominant one, all the other effects of the new system are secondary.

On a separate issue (and this is based largely on my impression of the number of new players joining per month), it would be good to have a running newbie game. When it gets to LYLO or about 3-5 days till expected end time, start the signup for the next one, it can start as soon as the other newbie game finishes. It doesn't have to be strictly first or second time players: the goal would be to be useful and good as an introduction for new players, but more experienced players could join too (partially when it's needed to fill because there aren't that many people with less than 3 or 4 games interested, and partly to add a bit of experience into each newbie game for the sake of having someone who knows all the terminology and can explain things). They could be C9 or F11 certainly, but we could probably come up with a setup slightly more appropriate for the forum (it seems most games these days have 2+ scum factions, something not reflected in those standard setups). I'd be more than happy to mod these games for the time being, though I'm sure anyone else could too, I've done it before and they really take very little effort once you cut out all the more mod-involved roles and keep mod involvement to answering a few basic questions and handling just 3-4 night actions+lynch. And of course they can be themed.