"I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:44 am UTC

But what about making judgements on something people DO, that happens to be in a group identified by what they are.

For instance the 'gay community' is doing something, Having an opinion on the effectiveness of a particular strategy is independant of the identity of the group.

For instance, recently Tamil Tiger sympathizers protested here by blocking off a busy highway at rush hour. I think that's a bad tactic, since it turned many people against their cause.
So if I said "I'm not racist, but I think Toronto's Tamil population should reconsider how they protest if they want to gain support"

Isn't that the same thing? And wouldn't my opinion have been the same if Tamil Tigers was replaced by 'Gays' or 'Iranians' or 'Girl Guides'?

It IS about something people Do in each case, not about what they are, but just the mention of an identifiable group is labelled as an attack on the group, even if the group itself is irrelevant to the opinion.
Thinking a parade is a good or bad PR idea has nothing to do with someone's opinion on Gays themselves.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Voco » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:54 am UTC

I think the problem there is calling them the "X community." It's one thing to say "these protesters" or, if the protest is run by an organization, the organization's name, but another to associate the protesters with the cause they support. It's the difference between "Those environmental activists who blew up the bridge were wrong to resort to dangerous violence" and "The environmentalist community needs to stop resorting to dangerous violence." By choosing the latter, one associates all environmentalists together with those who do violence, something that may not be appreciated either by radicals or non-radicals.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:00 am UTC

Adding the 'I'm not racist but" is where I see the problem.

If you said, the Tamil Tigers are not helping their cause by tying up traffic--I have no problem with that. The "I'm not racist but" makes people sound like Archie Bunker.

And yeah it was annoying when they did it--I agree with you. They also submitted blood samples to help out a little girl at sick kids--neat but not really related.

The actual point I see is that as soon as you say "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic" you are influencing the tone of the rest of what you say--as soon as you utter it I'm thinking---oh so what racist drivel is about to be spouted? And most of the time I'm perfectly correct in that assumption too.

You haven't said much about parades in general--just gay pride parades. Have you ever gone to one?
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:17 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:Adding the 'I'm not racist but" is where I see the problem.

If you said, the Tamil Tigers are not helping their cause by tying up traffic--I have no problem with that. The "I'm not racist but" makes people sound like Archie Bunker.

And yeah it was annoying when they did it--I agree with you. They also submitted blood samples to help out a little girl at sick kids--neat but not really related.

The actual point I see is that as soon as you say "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic" you are influencing the tone of the rest of what you say--as soon as you utter it I'm thinking---oh so what racist drivel is about to be spouted? And most of the time I'm perfectly correct in that assumption too.

You haven't said much about parades in general--just gay pride parades. Have you ever gone to one?


Yes, I live on Church st.

But that's besides the point, I don't think the parades are a bad strategy.

I think people learn to say 'Im not Racist but...' because other's first reaction is to call them racist for even mentioning anything to do with race. It's a learned behaviour to defend against wild attacks, like the ones you immediately launched, people learn to say it after that, not before.
They've got to say something to emphasize 'This has nothing to do with the race/gender/group...but here's an opinion on something people are doing'
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby GoodRudeFun » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:23 am UTC

EnderSword wrote:
Rinsaikeru wrote:Adding the 'I'm not racist but" is where I see the problem.

If you said, the Tamil Tigers are not helping their cause by tying up traffic--I have no problem with that. The "I'm not racist but" makes people sound like Archie Bunker.

And yeah it was annoying when they did it--I agree with you. They also submitted blood samples to help out a little girl at sick kids--neat but not really related.

The actual point I see is that as soon as you say "I'm not racist/sexist/homophobic" you are influencing the tone of the rest of what you say--as soon as you utter it I'm thinking---oh so what racist drivel is about to be spouted? And most of the time I'm perfectly correct in that assumption too.

You haven't said much about parades in general--just gay pride parades. Have you ever gone to one?


Yes, I live on Church st.

But that's besides the point, I don't think the parades are a bad strategy.

I think people learn to say 'Im not Racist but...' because other's first reaction is to call them racist for even mentioning anything to do with race. It's a learned behaviour to defend against wild attacks, like the ones you immediately launched, people learn to say it after that, not before.
They've got to say something to emphasize 'This has nothing to do with the race/gender/group...but here's an opinion on something people are doing'
I think different people say it for different reasons. Some say it because they know they are Xist, but feel guilty about it. Some are just trying to deny it. Others really are trying to show that what they say isn't based on Xism.

The point she was trying to make is that saying "I'm not racist but...." is a bad move any way you look at it, learned defense or not. It makes people immediately think "liar/oh god shut the fuck up/ clearly you are". Besides, if one must say it, perhaps one should consider that maybe one just might be a little bit racist and actually try to deal with that.
Oh. Well that's alright then.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:31 am UTC

I don't see that a) I made any attacks or b) that they were wild. I did point out that all of the scenarios I saw didn't seem to work as the counter-example as you intended: which to me is essentially the point of discussion.

I agree with GoodRudeFun (and Avenue Q)--people are a little bit sexist and racist (and every other ist you can think of). These are learned social behaviours endemic to our current culture. I can actively try to fight the fact that I have prejudices, but I can't do that by claiming not to have them.

If you jump into a topic--say about feminism--and try to offer 'solutions' without good grounding in the topic, don't be suprised if you get jumped on. It's also, of course, possible that even with the best of intentions and all your reasearch done someone might attack you wildly. It happens--when it does, don't take one uninformed rant to represent an entire group of people.

In my opinion: anytime you preface what you are about to say with a disclaimer, you've subverted your intended meaning from the get go.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby GoodRudeFun » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:41 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:don't take one uninformed rant to represent an entire group of people.
Isn't doing that exactly what prejudice is? Its almost an ironic cycle. Someone claims "i'm not racist/sexist/homophobic/anynumberofother-ists, but...." someone takes that, gets mad for no reason, and now the person, taking that as a representation, is now the -ist they claimed not to be in the first place.
Oh. Well that's alright then.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:49 am UTC

It depends entirely on the rest of the sentence. Though if someone completes that sentence with something negative--I won't think a whole group of people are racist/sexist/homophobic, just the one who said it.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Kag » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:19 am UTC

How would it be less Xist to say something positive?
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby abitha » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:03 am UTC

Kag wrote:How would it be less Xist to say something positive?


Good point!

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Mo0man » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:59 am UTC

As an asian person, I can properly say the next person to point out that I'm asian and ask if I'm good at math is getting a good punching
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby elminster » Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:22 pm UTC

I think the problem is that some people legitimately use pre-emptive defensive statements to remove any bias a person may have before hearing the comments, but some people just abuse it or use it incorrectly to try make any point they like while trying to appear less offensive. After enough people misuse it, people just get annoyed and eventually regard all pre-emptive defensive statements as the start of an offensive comment.

Kag wrote:How would it be less Xist to say something positive?
Well, being stereotyped as having a large dick isn't too much of an issue for a lot of people. Although there are quite a lot of positive things people turned into negative things by using them as a stereotype.

A:"I think Americans are great!"
B:"What? So people from other countries aren't as good?"
A:"I mean..."
B:"Racist bastard!"
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Fenchurch » Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:40 pm UTC

elminster wrote:I think the problem is that some people legitimately use pre-emptive defensive statements to remove any bias a person may have before hearing the comments, but some people just abuse it or use it incorrectly to try make any point they like while trying to appear less offensive.

I think the problem is also that people have differing opinions on what is and isn't racist/sexist/homophobic/ablist etc. I know a lot of people who will happily make, for instance, racist jokes, but would argue that they are perfectly fine to do so because they don't genuinely *think* that such and such group is inferior. My opinion is that this behaviour still contributes to reinforcing the stereotypes and alienation, and regardless of whether or not you are an Xist, you can still say Xist things.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Angua » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:52 pm UTC

I tend to use that turn of phrase when discussing drugs/alcohol/sex as sometimes I feel that people who do the will think I'm judging them when in reality I don't drink or do drugs because I'm terrified of being drunk/high and am terrified of getting pregnant or stds when it comes to sex (though I am trying to work on being paranoid).

The conversation goes something like:
acquaintance: so, have you ever been drunk?
me: no, but I don't judge people who have been, I'm just don't lie the idea of being drunk (admitting that you're terrified of being out of control of your own body is a bit embarrassing).
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Kag » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:24 am UTC

Mo0man wrote:As an asian person, I can properly say the next person to point out that I'm asian and ask if I'm good at math is getting a good punching
Okay, but are you good at math?
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:36 am UTC

No.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Gaydar2000SE » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:48 am UTC

When people say those things, they actually lie. Take this great example, recently Aguilera 'ripped' Lady GaGa off and every one said they hated it and that she sucked for it, still her new album sells just like her old, this is because people post that on boards, tell that to their friends, probably honestly hate Aguilera for it, but still end up buying her new album.

'Freedom of speech' and 'let each be their own' (judging) are probably the most potent examples of this, every one says they support it and are tolerant, in reality no one is and people still ban things when they have the might they consider seriously offensive. The point is that people tolerate and not judge others if they have no problem with it, you can say 'Yeahh, I'm tolerant towards same sex marriage', what you mean is 'I don't find it offensive', at the same time you're disgusted by same-family marriages and seek to ban it and come with all kinds of nazi-science rationales about inbreeding (no shit, if there ever was a hoax) to back that up and continue to put forth that it's some how different. God, you can also put aids against gay men, and you could argue that the inbreeding problem is equivalent to eugenics like Hitler did and you might as well say that stupid people may not have children.

Freedom of speech is also duly restricted in the western world, parental advisory, refused classifications and all that shit. You only have the freedom to say commonly approved things, just like in Iran .

The end of the line is that people don't realize that they judge if they do, because if they do they find it offensive and if they find it truly offensive, they feel it's a special case where that rule no longer applies. Like 'democratic' countries that ban political parties because they find their curriculum just tooo deviant; Steel Joseph would say the same.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:05 am UTC

I hate it when people tell me that I need to be tolerant and open-minded. Those are your views, stop trying to force them on me.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Gaydar2000SE » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:17 am UTC

I hate it when people say I can't murder their daughter, surely you have no right to infringe upon my lifestyle of brutally murdering your daughter Germany-style?
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:23 am UTC

I hate it when people tell me to stop joining in on the arias. It is my God Given Right to sing E Lucevan le Stelle, damn it.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:06 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:One thing that drives me crazy is people who say that they don't judge something, and then make a statement that clearly implies a negative judgment.

I'm not judging you, but you could try to reclaim the phrase. :wink:
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby LuNatic » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:41 am UTC

'I'm not racist or anything but have you heard the joke about the black/Asian/whatever guy that...'

*rages*
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:27 pm UTC

Reminds me of a Comedian I saw on TV last night who when into a little 2 minute pre-amble about how the guy who played Cramer on Seinfeld was terrible because of his use of 'Hate Speach' on stage and so forth, then proceeded to tell his own series of racist jokes.

What bothers me more lately than any actual Xism is deliberate over-reaction to it when the person probably isn't really offended anyway. It's a really cheap easy political punching bag now.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:39 pm UTC

elminster wrote:Well, being stereotyped as having a large dick isn't too much of an issue for a lot of people.
Sure it is. You're simultaneously belittling the group as basically nothing but large dicks on legs while at the same time buying in to the notion of uncontrolled hypersexuality that certain groups still struggle with to this day.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:10 pm UTC

That does raise the issue though of what happens when a Stereotype is statistically true?

Saying 'Every black guy has a large one' is obviously wrong, but are we allowed to just say 'On Average this race is physically different in this way...'

I think one big blind spot when it comes to doing research on racial, gender or sexuality issues etc... is that we're not allowed to violate the assumption that everyone is exactly equal in all things.
If anyone ever concluded that on average men are better than women at math by 0.5%, then that would be an unacceptable answer and people would attack the conclusion and seek to find a society based reason why it's happening. We rule out potential entire lines of thought because of a fear of sounding Xist.
(Of course if it said women were 0.5% smarter than men at math, no one would call that sexist)

It just stops people from ever discussing social problems in a meaningful way because you can't bring anything up to discuss a solution to the problem without being called a racist, sexist or something. You're certainly not allowed to advocate any changes in behaviour, even if you're a member of the community you're trying to help.
I always feel that if Martin Luther King Jr was alive now, people would just call him an Uncle Tom and not listen to him.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:47 pm UTC

But on average doesn't explain the whole picture--even if it were true.

You have a range where some people fall towards one end and some fall towards the other and there are plenty of people who fall outside the range typified by their race/gender/sexuality.

The trouble isn't that stereotypes aren't often statistically true--it's that they maliciously ignore those who fall outside a certain set of values and actively force people to believe they belong within a certain set of values.

How are we ever going to figure out how good women are at 'math' if we continually tell them that they're bad at it? A scientific study with verifiable findings isn't sexist--but unfortunately no such study exists (and if it did I don't see how it could differentiate between socialized and cultural differences between the genders and biological math abilty).
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby the tree » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:54 pm UTC

I genuinely don't judge people who have milk in thier tea - just because I think it's gross doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with people who think otherwise. (people who have sugar in tea - whole other story)

I don't see what's wrong with saying "I have no problem with your lifestyle - it's just really, really not for me".

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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:25 pm UTC

Compare
"I have no problem with that lifestyle - it's just not for me"
"I don't judge that lifestyle - it's just not for me"
"I don't judge people of that lifestyle - it's just not for me"

1. You don't have a problem with it, though you're not down. No big deal. It'd still be better to just say "I'm not down with that lifestyle, but that's me" indicating that the difference lies in YOU, not in THEM.
2. By using the word judge, you're indicating that some people may find that wrong. While that may not seem like a big deal, most people don't judge others based on them driving automobiles and using electricity, even though that's not in line with the Amish lifestyle, for example.
3. Ah, now you're not talking about the lifestyle, but the people who partake of the lifestyle. It's one thing to not judge a television show, for example.. and quite another to not judge the fans of that show. Two different animals.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:30 pm UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:But on average doesn't explain the whole picture--even if it were true.

You have a range where some people fall towards one end and some fall towards the other and there are plenty of people who fall outside the range typified by their race/gender/sexuality.

The trouble isn't that stereotypes aren't often statistically true--it's that they maliciously ignore those who fall outside a certain set of values and actively force people to believe they belong within a certain set of values.

How are we ever going to figure out how good women are at 'math' if we continually tell them that they're bad at it? A scientific study with verifiable findings isn't sexist--but unfortunately no such study exists (and if it did I don't see how it could differentiate between socialized and cultural differences between the genders and biological math abilty).


With something like Math, its very difficult, because obviously it does depend on too many social factors. But in studies, it's Assumption #1 that the abilities of every race, gender etc... are Equal in every category.

This is true to the point that if a study reveals a non-equality, we are forced to believe it Must be a social factor or bias causing the result.

Take that case people are talking about relating to Sotomayor, a test was administered to a small group of different ethnicities for Firefighting promotions.
The ethnic mix of those who passed did not match to ethnic mix of those who took the test...therefore the TEST was Racist.

no one would ever in a million years ever say outloud 'Well, maybe it turns out the White guys were better candidates' because you're not allowed to violate the Assumption that that's not possible.

I do think a lot of that stuff is social, But I do think its silly to rule out off hand that somethings could be innate.

I know the problem is if you say that even if there's a 0.01% difference, people will use that to justify racist positions, or if you tell a girl she's bad at math it might become self-fulfilling....But I don't think that can be allowed to become a factor in censoring discussion of the topics and especially not for censoring scientific research in it.


I don't see what's wrong with saying "I have no problem with your lifestyle - it's just really, really not for me".


I think this is fine, it depends on the reasoning you dismissed it for and what you say.

I like SecondTalon's distinctions here while I was typing this. Distinguishing between the people and the actions.
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Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rat » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:40 pm UTC

pff. you're just hearing it wrong. the prefixes are there for emphasis, not contradiction..

an example i saw mentioned earlier: "No offense, but you're fucking retarded."
the speaker here is aware of how offensive its statement is. they just wanted you to think they'd say something less offensive before they shut you down. it's a form of sarcasm.

"I don't judge, but you are sentenced to death by electric chair." is another good one.


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