Guild Wars 2

[Lucrece]

New trailer makes me so happy. Asura/Sylvani FTW.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/

One of the things I loved about GW was that it didn't require you to grind for 1-2 months just to get to endgame to finally enjoy competition. The lack of grind for gear and levels really allowed people to boast skill instead of time invested to get something in a game.

Seeing as how I can no longer meet my 40 hours a week playtime with previous MMO's (minimum for dominant, hardcore guilds), since I decided I like to sleep and play when I want, not because I have to, GW always seemed a good fit for me.

Drop in, play, log out. Instant gratification in all its Western glory.

It's hard to find a MMO that doesn't feel like another job in order to play competitively.

[mosc]

I think it's going to be more grind. Guild wars is already evolving into a game with more grind with a plethora of PVE skills, titles that give huge boosts, etc. Guild Wars 2 will be far closer to the standard MMO experience than the original I think. Which honestly is what most of it's existing customer base wants.

[Lucrece]

Having experienced Lineage II, Aion, and FFXI, GW does not even come close to a contemporary concept of grind.

That one can start with top equipment and level cap in PVP without having to spend months leveling and getting gear to finally compete is in itself a huge improvement over any MMO. And I never minded instancing.

Most world PvP MMO's toot their horn about "real PvP". Except, the nature of world PvP dilutes the PvP, side imbalances create discontent and dropping subs, to the point where PvP is either a zergfest, or you have to forego world PvP to do "batt;egrounds" in order to do some semblance of organized, competitive PvP.

[mosc]

Guild wars has seen Team Arenas and Hero Battles fall completely by the wayside. It's PVP content is not on solid ground. People get tired of rock paper scissors. PVP grind exists too. Joining a decent HA guild or GVG guild will cost you serious gold unless your rank (which requires grinding) is through the roof.

When guild wars first came out, there was very little grind to it. Level 20 required about 10 hours for even a casual player if they weren't dragging their feet. Ideal equipment could be bought with gold from playing through the game or perhaps repeating some sections a couple times. All out farming was hardly required unless you wanted pretty skins.

I love guild wars, but I see more and more grind every day. The barrier to entry gets bigger every update practically and I only see that magnifying in GW2.

[thecommabandit]

Well, consider this: Guild Wars 2 is going to be a more traditional MMO with no monthly subscription. You can buy the game and that's it, free subscription for life. You may as well buy it and play for a month. If you don't like it, fair enough. You haven't lost more than trying the free month most monthly MMOs require. If you like it for longer, then basically a free MMO.

I'll probably be buying it at some point. Most likely not within six months of its release though.

[Gelsamel]

It depends if you want to be "top-end" "cutting edge" or not.

If you do... you're going to have to grind no matter what MMO you're playing really. Even GW the first was a horrible grind if you wanted to have all the skills open or that extra +1 to help min/max.

GW just seems to have the "casual" vs "hardcore" gap a lot smaller (which probably turns more of the hardcores away, though).

[Amnesiasoft]

If you do... you're going to have to grind no matter what MMO you're playing really. Even GW the first was a horrible grind if you wanted to have all the skills open or that extra +1 to help min/max.

Well, I didn't have Guild Wars when it came out, but you can currently purchase the Skill Unlock packs on the NC Soft store for $10 each. Paying a one time fee of $10 doesn't sound like grinding to me. There's also the PvP Equipment Unlock pack for...$10.

[Lucrece]

And paying for those packs is nothing. I've always liked micro-transactions, since they allow for a more time-efficient play.

You pay 50 dollars initially and 20 dollars worth of packs. 70 bucks. With the upcoming Aion, it will take about 1 month for the player pushing 40+ hours of playtime (read: no life) to reach max level. 2 if you're semi-casual, 3 if you can't push more than 20 hours a week.

There goes leveling. Hardcore, 15 extra bucks, without competitive gear still (a full set can take 2-3 months for top end gear). At 4 months of playtime, you'll have spent 50+ 60 dollars worth of subscriptions, and inordinate amount of playtime to finally play the game at a competitive level. 110 bucks, but it's also costing you countless hours that you're either not earning money by working, studying, or socializing.

Sure, you always need to invest more time to be cutting edge. The difference is the time gap and grinding require to go up the ladder. People don't want to invest 1-2 months of boring leveling (that's what it has become on MMO's; leveling is not some enjoyable progression, but rather a tedious grind you have to get past ASAP) just to spend a few more months getting geared up to be competitive.

It's a time-sensible game, and that's what appeals to me. It doesn't force me to decide between studying/working and grinding in order to finally enjoy a game.

I'm aware that MMO's will always have something you need to invest time on to achieve. The question is how much time is spent trying to progress to finally achieve the rewards. Compared to the previous MMO's I've done, Guild Wars is fluff. I never needed to play 7-8 hours a day to stay competitive.

[mosc]

Guild Wars 2 won't be that cheap. In addition to buying the game, there will be expansion packs too. PVP in particular will be very limited if you don't keep up with all the latest skills. One of the most devilish things about GW1 was that the first two expansion packs came bundled as a stand-alone which meant they were full price. Effectively creating a "Core" game and "campaigns" but requiring you to re-buy the core game with every additional campaign. Also, guild wars had numerous fees for those wanting to maximize their potential. Skill unlock and equipment unlock packs were quick shortcuts but additional character slots, storage accounts, bonus item weapons, summoning stones to help with leveling, extra quest content, and many others were all things that generally cost extra in GW1. In many ways, a year of more standard subscription fees may actually save you money. Guild Wars' pricing model is easier to swallow for most but I dispute that it's substantially cheaper.

[Lucrece]

In the interviews they said that one of the key changes is the drastic cuts to amount of skills in the game. Rather, they will give the same skill different utility in several situations, but not forcing the player into selecting from the thousand skills that were available in GW1. It does seem like they want the game to remain less grindy (if you can call it that) than it had become in late GW1.

But, heck, I'll take "grinding" in GW in a heartbeat over what most MMO's offer. The lastest game, Aion, had me do 8 hours daily of leveling to reach lv50 in... a month and a half. That's just not healthy at all.

[mosc]

I agree with you Lucrece, it is definitely a game I'm looking forward to. But as somebody who's been active in guild wars since day 1 and still is today (I run the alliance that owns the #3 luxon town.), I'm disappointed in the general trend. For me, I've been able to skip out on a lot of the added grind. Need to beat RA to get to TA and then TA to get to HA? Nope, Skip that nonsense because my account is older than the battle isles. Need to go buy the extra quests to get those pretty mursaat skin weapons? Nope, I bought EOTN when it first came out so I got that for free. ETC ETC. I personally haven't run into those barriers out of seniority more than anything else but all that goes away with GW2.

[Chfan]

I will still play this game and Aion, grindy or no. I do agree that it'll probably continue down the slippery slope...

[Jahoclave]

In the interviews they said that one of the key changes is the drastic cuts to amount of skills in the game. Rather, they will give the same skill different utility in several situations, but not forcing the player into selecting from the thousand skills that were available in GW1. It does seem like they want the game to remain less grindy (if you can call it that) than it had become in late GW1.

Well some of it is that, and especially with the first expansion, the skills pretty much did the same damn thing.

I know with healing I still rock at least seven skills from the core and even that other one may be core but I don't remember. Combine that with a mostly core prot monk and it really didn't matter if we had a mesmer wanding shit to death, nothing could touch us. There's not much point in having a shitload of skills people aren't using.

[thecommabandit]

Point taken, but I think the wide variety of skills was good for those who didn't just powergame - those who experimented with strange builds. Like me, I have an Elementalist/Warrior who was doing well, and the Warrior secondary class wasn't just some gimmick for one skill; she hits things with swords and nukes them with fire magic. It's probably the combination that's worked best so far, and I've respecced her a lot with all sorts of other combinations. The only other ones that worked nearly as well were hammers and air/earth magic. There are probably a few skills on my bar that most people would just look at and think "What the hell would I use that for?" if they're thinking more conventionally about their class.

[Chfan]

Wow, a Hamstorm?

[Lucrece]

I loved my Channeling Ritualist.

Hmm, really interested in rolling Sylvari or Asura. Can't wait for more info on the game that will be released in PAX. I'm particularly dying to know about how the races and the classes will work.

[thecommabandit]

Yes, I'm hoping they allow us to use secondary classes or some other way to get hybrids, as I love crosses between warriors and mages.

And Charr for the win!

Wow, a Hamstorm?

Uhh, I guess?

[Chfan]

No, there's a running joke on a build wiki about a build suggested in the Prophecies handbook, where it suggests (as a W/E) you cripple your enemy with Hamstring and then nuke them with Fire Storm as they run away, although this is unfeasible, silly and usually impossible. Like other "n00b" builds, e. g. Wammos, Touchers, etc.

[thecommabandit]

Oh right. It works better than you'd think (my build, I mean), but you need a perceptive healer because when you do start to lose health, you lose it fast. And Wammos aren't necessarily unfeasible, just usually people's first character and hence noobly.

[Amnesiasoft]

Echo mending!

[Jahoclave]

Echo mending!

Or at least I hope that's a joke.

[Chfan]

certainly not. It was very popular with W/Me/Mos. (all three at a time, by the way)

[Xutar]

Idk about that zergrush comment. Sway has become the dominant build among bad/inexperienced players. Anet is going to be nerfing the R/A dagger spammers soon though. Also, Anet announced they were going to eliminate Team arenas and Hero battes and add a new "sealed deck" arena; where you have to create your builds out of a set of pre-determined skills. I think it'll be fun because it'll emphasize player-ability over who can cram more over-powered skills into one team.
*cough*lingering curse+visions of regret*cough*

[HalfEvil333]

This whole thread makes me want to play Guild Wars again. I only had Factions I think it is and I found it pretty fun.

[Sokh]

Necro

Just thought I'd put it out there that I'm going back to guild wars to try and get as many points as I can for guild wars 2. I seem to have been hacked in the year I wasn't playing and lost 3 sets of 15k armour, the mats for my FoW armour I was working towards, a heap of green weapons and perfect golds, and more crafting materials than I can count. Oh yea, thats was on one char, god knows about the rest of them, and Anet says they don't have the capability to restore items or help at all. So I'm gonna be doing plenty of farming/mission running if anyone wants to join me.

Will be playing monk unless I'm too out of practise to heal or monks are for some reason dead weight now. I haven't looked at what you can get points from in great detail yet, waiting on my copy of EotN which should be here soon. Maybe we could collaborate amongst whoever's interested and make a schedule so for example everyone who needs X title is doing it on Wednesday at 4pm. Or maybe no one will be interested in an old game and I'll hench it, whatever

[Vapour]

If you plan on farming heroic areas outside Rata Sum. Count me in!

I'm one level off the elite armour for my Elementist. I haven't played in ages, and when i recently rejoined. My guild is pretty quiet, so i don't have the help required to do it

[Sokh]

Not even sure where Rata Sum is but why not! Haven't completed Nightfall or EotN though so I'm guessing I need to get that done. Really lost interest in Nightfall, maybe it'll be better this time round.

[Vapour]

Rata Sum is the Asura area, bottom left of the Prophecies map.

Edit - Have you unlocked hard modes yet?

I'm also game for doing a few missions aswell, they're usually fun. Unless they turn into a wipe fest

[Sokh]

Completed Prophecies and Factions so I have those Hardmodes unlocked, just not in Nightfall or EotN.

[Vapour]

Hmm, it would appear that Rata Sum is apart of the Eotn Campaign.

This is the armour I'm after.

Spoiler:

Failing that, I've been doing the hall of Momuments on my Dervish, which is my figure head, but hasn't done much of the campaign

[Sokh]

Very nice. Once I get my CD delivered I'll probably try and power through the campaign.

I'm really torn whether to get the 15k kurzick armour on my monk again. I had it before but it was deleted as I said a couple posts ago. My necro still has his luxon 15k so I don't need it for the points, but it looks so ossum. If i dont get it I'll probably get a basic one from kaining or something then farm for obsidian or vabbian.

Either way, FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM FARM.

[Vapour]

I think I've only really completed the Eotn Campaign, so if you're going to go through any of the others let me know.


I'm not sure why I chose my Dervish as my Momument bloke, prefer my Elementalist*. Probably because he has the Elite Sunspear armour dyed white (which looks beautiful)
So, I'll probably join you on my Ele. Its not too late to swap characters.


Hopefully the momument points is an account based thing, rather than character.

*She hasn't completed a single campaign.

[Ortus]

HoM is account based, yeah. GW2 is shaping to be amazing... I'm kind of torn between SW:TOR and GW2. I'm sure I'll try both, but which seat will I take?

[Vapour]

I'm taking the Asura Guardian seat.

[Ortus]

I'm pretty sure I'll end up playing a Mesmer, or whatever the Mesmer powermorphs in to when it is finally announced.

[Beardhammer]

I think it's going to be more grind. Guild wars is already evolving into a game with more grind with a plethora of PVE skills, titles that give huge boosts, etc. Guild Wars 2 will be far closer to the standard MMO experience than the original I think. Which honestly is what most of it's existing customer base wants.

This is why I'm very leery of ANY game that markets itself as an MMO, and especially if it makes pretense to being "different from a normal MMO."

MMOs contain a lot of boring, pointless grinding... or they aren't MMOs.

Grinding is how you convince people to keep paying that monthly free - just grind 350 more carebear badges and you can that Shield of Manliness +4! Then grind another 200 SPECIAL carebear badges so you can turn that Shield of Manliness +4 into a Shield of My Balls Are Massive +7! And so on. Cracked has a really good article up, comparing MMOs to Skinner box experiments.

If you don't have a monthly fee, you do things a different way. Imagine WoW had no monthly fees, but every content patch (which arrive every other month or so) cost $30. Been reading up on all those new questlines, all those cool new raids and dungeons and the new daily areas? Cool, give us $30. Want to participate in the next PvP season? $30. Dangle the carrot, get them badly wanting that carrot... and then make them pay through the nose for it. It's no different than the $15-a-month scheme.

MMOs, more than anything else, are a business first and foremost. The developer WILL do whatever it takes to maximize profits. That includes doing whatever they can to milk money out of their customers, right up to before they do something that pisses so many people off that they lose profits. Selling gold and whatnot would probably scare people away from WoW. But selling special mounts, pets, or offering services like server transfers, character retooling, and the ability to do dungeons with buddies on other servers? Hey, it's only $25 right?

Non-MMOs exhibit this to a certain extent as well - why do you think shooters made in the past six years copy either Modern Warfare or Half-Life 2? Why do you think cover-based shooters with regenerating health are so popular? Because Halo, Gears of War, and Modern Warfare have made embarassing amounts of money doing it. I'm honestly surprised Serious Sam 3 doesn't have regenerating health or cover-based gameplay (there IS a weapon that has iron sights, though) - hopefully when SS3 makes ridiculous amounts of money other developers will feel a little bit safer doing something besides cloning MW again.

The short answer is that mediocrity sells almost as well as exceptional, is a much safer bet (for every Half-Life 2 there are five other games that tried something different and failed), and costs a LOT less to produce. So why make exceptional?

Anyway, GW2 will probably be worth buying and playing, but I certainly won't be one of the first to play it.

[Ortus]

One assumes that all game companies are faceless money-making machines - and to an extent, they all are. But there is one very important element to creating a game, and it is just that: creating. Most of the people on the GW2 team (specifically) are renowned artists in their fields, be it level design, character design, concept art, music; a good portion of the art team are all established artists in varied fields. They aren't creating the game solely to turn a profit. They are trying to turn a profit, yes, but I get the distinct impression that GW2 has a lot more going in to it than mere blandness and profit-mongering. On the art and story side of it, at least.

I am worried about game design, more than anything else; it is easy to see a fantastic piece of concept art and heap upon it awards, but it is not so easy to see a fantastic piece of nuance within the game design and extoll its glory to the masses.

Where Guild Wars hasn't entirely failed in the past (looking at you, Izzy), though, is creating interesting game design. While Guild Wars 1 was bound in rock, paper, scissors and the triad of class roles, the combat was no less than incredibly exciting and full of detail. Certain classes were new enough to be called so (Mesmer), and an interesting platform for e-sport emerged. And now, in Guild Wars 2, the traditional triad has been (or so it has been said) broken, and no longer is combat simply rock, paper, scissors in the basic idea that most MMO's tend to have them in. The combat will still be rock, paper, scissors, as the difficulty game balance dictates it must be, but the necessity for a tank, or a healer, or a damage dealer, has been properly negated. According to what Anet has said, so we won't know until beta.

Don't get me wrong, GW and Anet have their problems, but I think that if GW2 is given the development span it requires, it's going to be damn near stupid to pass it by.

I'm also pretty sure that what makes an MMO an MMO isn't grinding, more the fact that is played by a massive number of people in multiplayer while online.

In other news, pretty sure Call of Duty unashamedly looked to early Battlefield when rebooting the series in Modern Warfare. I'm also pretty sure Battlefield looked to Call of Duty 1-3 when transitioning to BF2.

[Kag]

If you don't have a monthly fee, you do things a different way. Imagine WoW had no monthly fees, but every content patch (which arrive every other month or so) cost $30. Been reading up on all those new questlines, all those cool new raids and dungeons and the new daily areas? Cool, give us $30. Want to participate in the next PvP season? $30. Dangle the carrot, get them badly wanting that carrot... and then make them pay through the nose for it. It's no different than the $15-a-month scheme.

Except that there's actually no longer any incentive to keep you playing for along time, as long as you're interested in the next level of content. Grinding doesn't help with that at all.

[Beardhammer]

If you don't have a monthly fee, you do things a different way. Imagine WoW had no monthly fees, but every content patch (which arrive every other month or so) cost $30. Been reading up on all those new questlines, all those cool new raids and dungeons and the new daily areas? Cool, give us $30. Want to participate in the next PvP season? $30. Dangle the carrot, get them badly wanting that carrot... and then make them pay through the nose for it. It's no different than the $15-a-month scheme.

Except that there's actually no longer any incentive to keep you playing for along time, as long as you're interested in the next level of content. Grinding doesn't help with that at all.

Sure there is. Remember the badges I mentioned earlier? Base your loot scheme around them.

Want to see that next awesome raid, complete with the never before seen encounter mechanics and all that cool shit? Cool, buy my $30 content patch, spend one month grinding the badges to be able to do that raid, spend the next month actually DOING that raid... and by time you're starting to get bored, I've started it over again with another $30 content patch.

You could even get clever by offering paid services, like paying $5 gets you 24 hours of doubled badge gains - gather those badges in half the time so you can see that hot new content faster! Or, hell, $5 for 48 hours - that way you can bilk $5 out of one of those sad saps that planned on spending their weekend playing your game, anyway.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5- ... icted.html

It was posted last year, but it's still spot-on. Like the guy says, read the article, and then notice how many of those creepy schemes he's talking about are present in World of Warcraft. It's not a coincidence.

EDIT:

In regards to "all of our dudes are accomplished artists": How exactly does this relate to the game? Are you saying the game will be pretty? Well, probably, though I suppose art is up to interpretation.

I don't care if a game is pretty. Most of the games I spend my time on are years old, running on outdated engines, because I frankly think the vast majority of games produced in the past five or six years are complete trash. Hell, most of those older games I play are also heavily modded - even five-star classics like the Infinity Engine games I mod to hell and back - though in those cases it tends to be for convenience more than fixing glaring issues with the game.

Go watch nearly any game's "developer diaries" or "developer vlogs" or "developer documentaries." Shit like that can make ANY game sound freaking awesome. It could be a game about rednecks farting after eating a bowl of chili and you could make it sound like it's gonna be the best, most innovative, most awesome blockbuster game EVER. Remember that game, Homefront? The one that was released not too long ago and got panned by fucking EVERYONE? Go check out the store page on Steam and watch the developer interview videos. They manage to make a terrible game actually sound pretty interesting, don't they?

Why the fuck you think they don't hardly make demos for games anymore, and when they do they certainly don't put the demo out until well after the game's gone gold? It's because developers are terrified that people will realize their game's a derivative sack of shit BEFORE they buy it. I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty that the Duke Nukem Forever demo murdered any chance they had of getting me to buy it before it goes on one of those 50%-75% off Steam sales. In a gaming world where developers more often shoot for mediocrity by cloning the most popular game on the block, the last thing they want is showing people that their game's a knock-off piece of shit before they've bought it (it's also why game developers probably HATE stores like GameStop, since customers can buy a game, discover it's shit, and immediately sell it to GameStop to recoup some of their lost money, none of which goes back to the developer.)

[Ortus]

Sure there is. Remember the badges I mentioned earlier? Base your loot scheme around them.

Want to see that next awesome raid, complete with the never before seen encounter mechanics and all that cool shit? Cool, buy my $30 content patch, spend one month grinding the badges to be able to do that raid, spend the next month actually DOING that raid... and by time you're starting to get bored, I've started it over again with another $30 content patch.

My arguments don't serve yours, so ignore them? People don't play these games to play them, they play them to have fun. A number of the population, for various and whatever reasons, will continue to play the game long after it has lost it's 'fun-factor', but initially? If you don't have compelling something, nobody is going to pay you jack. At this point of the gamers psyche, you could base your loot scheme around flying dildos and nobody will care and you will earn no money if you have no compelling gameplay/story/whatever.