xkcd

by **Vanguard** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:00 pm UTC

I searched, but the only other thread was some "unanswered questions" on HP, and my coming post doesn't really belong there.

Let me first get out of the way; I LIKE the Harry Potter series. I also LIKE the movies, especially their commitment to accuracy. Some understandable cuts are made, but otherwise they really do try very hard to stay accurate to the books.

Here's what I don't like: Harry Potter.
Confused yet?
Don't be.
I'm referring to the actual character.

Not just him, either. The entire student body. Hell, the entire school he goes to.

Remember the 4th book? You saw samples of two other magic schools. One russian school with warrior-like battlemages and a French one, with several calm females. Both have uniforms. Both have a style. Their leaders might be lunatics but the actual students show so much more competance than Hogwarts.
I forgot their school names, but I can recall the fact they sounded a lot more respectable than fucking "HOG. WARTS". Ugh.

Pretty much everything about Hogwarts is hilarious incompetant in both forms of HP. In year 1, they had a troll in their bathrooms. In year 2, they had a basilisk nearly murder several people (and a cat). In year 3, a runaway "murderer" torments the school for a while. In year 4, someone hacks the tournament and shoves Harry into it.
It just gets messier and messier.

Now, this is not to say the other schools don't have yearly drama and problems but holy shit. Hogwarts should have shut down several years ago.

The students are hilariously incompetant. And I know the reason for this.
The whole series takes place in the 2000-2010 area, so you KNOW they're in the modern world.

But for some reason, they are kept isolated and ignorant to possibly more efficient forms of magic. They use wands, which Ron Weasly proves that can break easily. (The Russian school used Staffs, but that could have just been the introduction display). They use Latin-esque phrases an don't get taught Nonverbal commands until year 5-6, which I find a little inefficient.

The isolation keeps all forms of intelligence and culture from entering their grounds. To the teacher's credit, most of them seem to know what the hell is going on outside, they STILL choose to keep it hush-hush, despite the fact that it would help in the longrun.

Remember Hermione? From what I understand, she led a life semi-similarly to Harry, with two muggle/human parents. And with that, she was the top student every single year. Hell, even Harry wasn't that good, having relied on help and luck every step of the way. And he even DID get killed eventually, it just didn't take.
Due to this, I find it amazing that the wizards in this world can think so low of humans that they generally top them in every way. Wizard's racism towards non-magic users goes so deep, is they cannot recognize that humans have formed efficient ways for everything.

So much could have been solved for either side of the wizard war if they had just imbued some of their magic with some technology as well. But forsaking it, just makes Hogwarts incredibly weak. For those who read the seventh book, they get their shit FUCKED. UP. Where several important characters get knocked off and very little of the bad guys. And only luck takes them to victory, and the professors have to drag the useless students around all over the place.

The in-school rivalry doesn't help them either. To their credit, this kind of dynamic is in high schools and such as well. (I recall my Middle School had designated certain Halls and a certain number of classes to specific Team Names). So the Hogwart's point-system is a decent idea. But that's competition, and it can be healthy. But the Slytherin house has a much darker and violent root to it, than just innocent "Let's have our team Hurricane beat team Tsunami at Dodgeball today!" Instead of remedying this, they actually PREFER to match all the potential homicidal maniacs on one side... and they still get surprised when they side with the BigBad at the end of the day. You morons.
Because of this, they are a very weak and incompetant school as a whole.

I just wanted to vent this. I wonder if anyone sees the same thing I do.

by **rat4000** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:40 am UTC

I don't agree with anything you've written. Let me go through your post paragraph by paragraph. Pretty much every paragraph makes an isolated point, so that's not quote sniping.

Vanguard wrote:Remember the 4th book? You saw samples of two other magic schools. One russian school with warrior-like battlemages and a French one, with several calm females. Both have uniforms. Both have a style. Their leaders might be lunatics but the actual students show so much more competance than Hogwarts.
I forgot their school names, but I can recall the fact they sounded a lot more respectable than fucking "HOG. WARTS". Ugh.

Warrior-like battlemages? Calm females? Based on the, what, three times we see anyone from these schools that isn't Krum or Delacore? Based on the exactly zero times anyone who goes to these schools other than the aforementioned two becomes important enough to be named? Really?

Hogwarts has its style, too. It is clearly not as rich as Beauxbatons, because the French students find it... not so good. It is, however, considerably richer than Durmstrang. It has armors and hearths and a poltergeist and stuff. Which Durmstrang doesn't. And which Beauxbatons doesn't have either, but it has other, arguably better, things (the ice statues that Delacore told Davies about at the Yule Ball, for example).

Vanguard wrote:Pretty much everything about Hogwarts is hilarious incompetant in both forms of HP. In year 1, they had a troll in their bathrooms. In year 2, they had a basilisk nearly murder several people (and a cat). In year 3, a runaway "murderer" torments the school for a while. In year 4, someone hacks the tournament and shoves Harry into it.
It just gets messier and messier.

Now, this is not to say the other schools don't have yearly drama and problems but holy shit. Hogwarts should have shut down several years ago.

About years 2 and 4: they're not as good as Voldemort. Because no one is. If Harry was in another school, they would've looked just as incompetent when you compare them with the greatest wizard ever. About year 1: they would have handled that troll, but three idiot students got to it first. About year 3, someone else will have to answer, as I do not remember the book very well, but hey: isn't the school allowed to be incompetent every once in a while? No one was hurt, after all

Vanguard wrote:But for some reason, they are kept isolated and ignorant to possibly more efficient forms of magic. They use wands, which Ron Weasly proves that can break easily. (The Russian school used Staffs, but that could have just been the introduction display). They use Latin-esque phrases an don't get taught Nonverbal commands until year 5-6, which I find a little inefficient.

The phrases are just the magic system in the books. Everyone uses them. Much like wands. Durmstrang students do not use staffs, by the way, because Krum does not and staffs are mentioned nowhere in the books. Haven't seen the movie, but I assume they just leant on them, to complement the "we're dressed for North Pole weather" feeling which the heavy clothes caused. As for the Nonverbal thing: it's difficult. Like calculus. Would you teach 10 or 12 year olds calculus?

Vanguard wrote:The isolation keeps all forms of intelligence and culture from entering their grounds. To the teacher's credit, most of them seem to know what the hell is going on outside, they STILL choose to keep it hush-hush, despite the fact that it would help in the longrun.

That's really not very different from the way pretty much every group functions. Leaders disclose to followers only what they believe the followers should know or what followers have, through rebellion or strike or whatever, proved that they have the right to know: this is usually less than the leaders' knowledge.

Vanguard wrote:Remember Hermione? From what I understand, she led a life semi-similarly to Harry, with two muggle/human parents. And with that, she was the top student every single year. Hell, even Harry wasn't that good, having relied on help and luck every step of the way. And he even DID get killed eventually, it just didn't take.
Due to this, I find it amazing that the wizards in this world can think so low of humans that they generally top them in every way. Wizard's racism towards non-magic users goes so deep, is they cannot recognize that humans have formed efficient ways for everything.

Two words: black people. There's still racism today, and they are way less different from whites than Muggles from wizards. People are more stupid than you give them credit for.

Vanguard wrote:So much could have been solved for either side of the wizard war if they had just imbued some of their magic with some technology as well. But forsaking it, just makes Hogwarts incredibly weak. For those who read the seventh book, they get their shit FUCKED. UP. Where several important characters get knocked off and very little of the bad guys. And only luck takes them to victory, and the professors have to drag the useless students around all over the place.

No one uses technology. It's against tradition. It might also be against some kind of unwritten wizard Geneva convention, because... imagine a wizard Apparating in your shelter while levitating a Tzar bomb and maybe you'll know what I mean. Also, ALL the bad guys get knocked out in the end. The good guys won, remember? Also also, some 150 or more fully trained and rather powerful wizards against... what? 50 fully trained and rather powerful wizards plus an undetermined number of CHILDREN? Yeah. Of course the children-side should win easily. Of course.

Vanguard wrote:But the Slytherin house has a much darker and violent root to it, than just innocent "Let's have our team Hurricane beat team Tsunami at Dodgeball today!" Instead of remedying this, they actually PREFER to match all the potential homicidal maniacs on one side... and they still get surprised when they side with the BigBad at the end of the day. You morons.

They'd get themselves together anyway, and besides, the idea of the Slytherin house is NOT to put people who are homicidal maniacs together (I'm leaving the "potential" out because everyone is a potential everything). The idea is to put ambitious and unscrupulous people together. That failed in the books because the books tell of a strange time: a time where there is a BIG DARK WIZARD on the horizon. That tends to change stuff.

The Harry Potter books did not have very great ambitions, but everything the author wanted was achieved. Including a rather good world-building and pretty much nothing that makes no sense.

by **Decker** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:13 pm UTC

rat4000 wrote:
Vanguard wrote:So much could have been solved for either side of the wizard war if they had just imbued some of their magic with some technology as well. But forsaking it, just makes Hogwarts incredibly weak. For those who read the seventh book, they get their shit FUCKED. UP. Where several important characters get knocked off and very little of the bad guys. And only luck takes them to victory, and the professors have to drag the useless students around all over the place.
No one uses technology. It's against tradition. It might also be against some kind of unwritten wizard Geneva convention, because... imagine a wizard Apparating in your shelter while levitating a Tzar bomb and maybe you'll know what I mean. Also, ALL the bad guys get knocked out in the end. The good guys won, remember? Also also, some 150 or more fully trained and rather powerful wizards against... what? 50 fully trained and rather powerful wizards plus an undetermined number of CHILDREN? Yeah. Of course the children-side should win easily. Of course.

I just wanted to touch on this point. If I remember correctly, it's not that using technology was against tradition or anything like that. The problem was that the ambient magic in hogwards messed with technology, causing it to malfunction. Technology simply didn't work with all the magic around.
I haven't read the books in a while. I could be wrong.

by **rat4000** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:23 pm UTC

You are correct. It was, however, not said that this is a universal explanation: I had to assume that it only held for Hogwarts and I had to explain why technology wasn't used in all the other battles.

by **Rinsaikeru** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:31 pm UTC

The other schools just had different regional methods in use for teaching/using magic. If you remember the Goblet of Fire during the Quidditch Word Cup--witches and wizards from different areas used different methods and had different ideas about magic. The latin words used by the British wizards are likely held over from the very latinate Victorian era that the British witches and wizards seem to favour.

The American magic users are probably much more tech progressive. The intent of the spell is important not the actual words used, which is why children demonstrate random magic--the training helps them direct and hone it.

Also, I agree with Decker--muggle artifacts don't work at Hogwarts because of all of the ambient magic. I also think that Harry starts at hogwarts in the 1990s according to JKR.

Hogwarts is essentially high school--in your highschool did they expose you to progressive ideas in science, mathematics or history? No, they use the curriculum as it's been set for probably decades with few changes.

by **rat4000** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:53 pm UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:The other schools just had different regional methods in use for teaching/using magic. If you remember the Goblet of Fire during the Quidditch Word Cup--witches and wizards from different areas used different methods and had different ideas about magic. The latin words used by the British wizards are likely held over from the very latinate Victorian era that the British witches and wizards seem to favour.

I don't remember that. Examples? Also, Krum at least uses Crucio, in the one example I can remember of us hearing a spell cast by a non-English wizard.

by **Vanguard** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:35 pm UTC

Yea, someone else mentioned 90's in another forum I posted this on.
Technology was still around, though.
Now Imma go read that massive quote post :3

Edit: I disagree, but that's all I can do.
These are simply accumilated thoughts.
I just think the wizarding world in the HP universe could do a lot better for itself.

by **Jorpho** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:53 pm UTC

I think it was Gaiman who commented that the HP books provide an alarmingly distorted ideal of the true British boarding school experience.

I think many of the points in the OP might be addressed if we had some idea what exactly all these wizards do with their time after they graduate. Some go on to do research, some work at the Ministry of Magic, some open retail stores to sell stuff to other wizards, some play Quiddich professionally, some run newspapers, some go after evil wizards, some become evil, and of course some become teachers - but what about the rest? What sort of productive labor are they involved in, especially if it doesn't involve regular interaction with Muggles?

by **Rinsaikeru** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:40 am UTC

Some are Aurors, work in banks, break curses, work with dragons, make potions, produce all the goods sold in stores, authors, photographers, work as a doctor/nurse at St. Mungos... pretty well any profession has a representation in the wizarding world. I'd like to know if there are Wizarding Universities--though it seems to be more like an apprentice system of some kind.

by **Jorpho** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:42 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:produce all the goods sold in stores

Actually, we don't really know about that. While they certainly developed them, we can't even be sure that Fred and George actually make every single one of the products that they sell.

Somewhere along the line, there's got to be some supply of raw materials from the Muggle world - but then, maybe that's what occupies the squibs.

Vanguard wrote:The isolation keeps all forms of intelligence and culture from entering their grounds. To the teacher's credit, most of them seem to know what the hell is going on outside, they STILL choose to keep it hush-hush, despite the fact that it would help in the longrun.

Remember Hermione? From what I understand, she led a life semi-similarly to Harry, with two muggle/human parents. And with that, she was the top student every single year. Hell, even Harry wasn't that good, having relied on help and luck every step of the way. And he even DID get killed eventually, it just didn't take.
Due to this, I find it amazing that the wizards in this world can think so low of humans that they generally top them in every way. Wizard's racism towards non-magic users goes so deep, is they cannot recognize that humans have formed efficient ways for everything.

One could indeed argue that prejudice runs deep throughout the wizarding world. Remember that Hermione is the only one who recognizes the plight of the house elves and seeks to do anything about it, and that from what little we see of wizarding history, there have been many long and violent problems with goblins and centaurs.

But isn't that interesting? The whole society has some deep-set backwards ideas despite the availability of magic - or maybe it's even because of the availability of magic. No doubt the fanfic writers have done the whole concept to death by now.

by **cathrl** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:21 am UTC

I think you're missing that the HP books are basically a parody of traditional British school stories. Most of the major "look how unrealistic this is" points are parodied points in the first place. Parodies distort things to the point of ridiculousness. That's what they are.

And I'm bemused by your suggestion that Hermione shouldn't be capable of being the best student in school just because she doesn't have a "privileged" background.

It's a children's book. Children's books don't turn round and show how adults could have dealt with things so much better. Mixing technology and magic? I expect there are senior researchers working on it somewhere, they just haven't got it working yet.

by **rat4000** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:43 am UTC

Arthur Weasley does...

by **axilog14** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:39 am UTC

Just wanted to touch on this one point:

rat4000 wrote:
Vanguard wrote:Pretty much everything about Hogwarts is hilarious incompetant in both forms of HP. In year 1, they had a troll in their bathrooms. In year 2, they had a basilisk nearly murder several people (and a cat). In year 3, a runaway "murderer" torments the school for a while. In year 4, someone hacks the tournament and shoves Harry into it.
It just gets messier and messier.

Now, this is not to say the other schools don't have yearly drama and problems but holy shit. Hogwarts should have shut down several years ago.
About years 2 and 4: they're not as good as Voldemort. Because no one is. If Harry was in another school, they would've looked just as incompetent when you compare them with the greatest wizard ever. About year 1: they would have handled that troll, but three idiot students got to it first. About year 3, someone else will have to answer, as I do not remember the book very well, but hey: isn't the school allowed to be incompetent every once in a while? No one was hurt, after all

This. If Hogwarts looked like it was an improbable weirdness magnet even for wizard standards in the books, remember that it was because Voldemort (Mr. "greatest wizard ever" Big Bad Guy) was clearly established as having a fervent (if not unhealthy) fixation with the place throughout his evil life.

Like Harry, Voldemort considered Hogwarts the one place he truly considered home, so it's not surprising he wound up devoting so much time and energy making that place the centerpiece of his campaigns. Even without counting Tom Riddle's past, Hogwarts is still the premier wizarding school in Britain (at least according to the books) steeped in deep history. Pretty much all the bad stuff you mentioned that happened to Hogwarts (not to mention the stuff you didn't, like the curse on the Defense Against The Dark Arts position) in the books was caused directly or indirectly by Voldemort.

Think about it this way: even the most powerful country in the world may not stand a chance against some scary-intelligent, single-minded terrorist organization who's not only intent on taking it down, but is also with some passing awareness of that country's inner workings.

by **semicharmed** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:15 pm UTC

Vanguard wrote:Remember the 4th book? You saw samples of two other magic schools. One russian school with warrior-like battlemages and a French one, with several calm females. Both have uniforms. Both have a style. Their leaders might be lunatics but the actual students show so much more competance than Hogwarts.
I forgot their school names, but I can recall the fact they sounded a lot more respectable than fucking "HOG. WARTS". Ugh.

Durmstrang & Beauxbatons, respectively. Whose delegation to the Triwizard Tournament was composed of students eligible for the competition. All students from both schools were able to cross the age line & enter their name in the cup, so it makes sense that they'd appear correspondingly more mature & competent than the Hogwarts students.
Who the books show primarily in the context of Harry & the other students in his year, so by the 4th book, you're comparing the 17 year olds from the foreign schools with the 14 year olds from Hogwarts.
Also, the Hogwarts students have uniforms, school robes are mentioned in the beginnings of almost every book; which before the movies came out, I imagined as being very similar to the academic gowns worn during college graduations & other ceremonies.

Vanguard wrote:The students are hilariously incompetant. And I know the reason for this.
The whole series takes place in the 2000-2010 area, so you KNOW they're in the modern world.

But for some reason, they are kept isolated and ignorant to possibly more efficient forms of magic. They use wands, which Ron Weasly proves that can break easily. (The Russian school used Staffs, but that could have just been the introduction display). They use Latin-esque phrases an don't get taught Nonverbal commands until year 5-6, which I find a little inefficient.

As Rinsaikeru said, J.K. Rowling has said that the first book is set in 1990, approximately, ending the series around 1997, so yes, modern, but in the books, there's a pretty strong divide between the Muggle's technological world & the wizard's magical world. I had just always assumed that the explanation given for electronics not working @ Hogwarts — too much magic — applied on a smaller scale to electronics around wizards. I.e., active magic will make electronics/technology glitchy/prone to failure. So wizards don't use much technology because if you can light your home/have magical appliances, why bother with Muggle stuff that would be unreliable in a house/office full of wizards?

Wands seem to be pretty universal across the wizarding world; in the last book, there's references to other wandmakers and the legendary wand that was a pretty important plot point. And staffs were mentioned nowhere in the 4th book, while I believe there's mentions of Krum's wand.
As for learning verbal spells first, then progressing to non-verbal, I'm with rat4000 on this one. Would you sit someone who has no idea of the concepts behind calculus in front of Matlab/Mathematica/Maple and ask them to graph some ODEs? If you remember in some of the early books, it took the first years an entire class or two to master some of the simplest spoken charms. While speaking the spells out loud. Hell, Hermione was correcting people's pronunciation. And then again, when they were learning non-verbal spells, a couple of classes to master the simple spells again, while not speaking. The words are obviously important, in some way, because they were instructed to "think" the word clearly — which makes sense to me, because I can hear a word in my head a lot better if I'm already familiar with it being said outloud.

Also, I'm sure JKR has all of this written down somewhere/in her head, but the books would have been much less enjoyable if for every 10 pages of plot, there was 20 pages of "this is how the wizarding world works". Part of the appeal of reading, at least for me, is being able to fill in the gaps with things that make sense to me. I like drawing my own mental pictures of characters much more than having the character described in exacting physical detail. Mainly because reading 10 pages of description of every freckle and mole on someone's face is boring.
The books I reread the most are the ones where, on every reading, something makes me go, "Oh, hey, I didn't think of that before."

by **PatrickRsGhost** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:49 pm UTC

RE: Verbal vs. Non-Verbal Spells:

Like others have said, learning the verbals spells first is like learning the basic fundamentals of mathematics. You wouldn't try to teach a young child calculus or trigonometry without first teaching them basic addition or subtraction, and at age 11 or 12, when the students first enter Hogwarts, that would be about the time Muggle children would begin to learn basic algebra.

Another thing that was pointed out in the first year was that saying a spell and casting it wasn't easy. You don't just wave your wand about and say some silly incantation, expecting an object to float in mid-air or an animal to transform into a water goblet. Like Professor Flitwick said in the first book and movie, enunciation was key, and that correct wrist movement was crucial. You have to pronounce the word correctly and wave the wand just so or else you'll end up screwing up major.

Non-verbals were trickier because not only do you have to think the spell in your head, but you have to think of the correct pronunciation in your head. You have to hear your own voice say it correctly in your head in order for it to work right. In a similar circumstance, let's take a foreign language class. In fact, when the students first learn charms and basic spells, they're learning a new language, and like regular foreign language classes, they have to learn to enunciate correctly. You could easily visualize the Spanish word for "hello" as being Hola, but you'd also have to visualize how it's pronounced, with the silent "H", the long "O", and the "A" as in the word "ah". That can take a little extra effort on your part, especially if Spanish is not your native language.

Also non-verbals are tricky because unlike with verbals, you have to be lightning quick and on your toes in the worst of times, when confronting an enemy. You have to expect that your enemy expects you to cast a spell non-verbally, and they'd try to counter it, so you have to already have another non-verbal at the ready as a counter-counter defense. You have to be two or three steps ahead of your opponent. This can be difficult for many wizards.

by **Azrael001** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:02 am UTC

While electronics may not work, that does not mean that there are things that muggles use that could benefit wizards. An AK-47 for example is extremely simple, and fire is something that seems to work normally in a magical field. Spears and arrows have proven to be an effective weapon against wizards, why not guns?

by **clockworkmonk** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:21 am UTC

The thing that always bothered me was the lack of a Magical computer.

Allow me to explain. I don't mean a standard electronic computer, but one where the base calculations are run on magical switches. I mean, thats basically the idea behind a computer anyways, and as there are Muggle study courses, I'm very suprised this never came up, particularly in the 5th book, which takes place in 1995 (if I remember correctly) during the real explosion of the internet. I'm just surprised no wizard tinker prodded around circuit design and came up with a computer.

ok, got that out of my system.

by **PAstrychef** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:27 am UTC

Not to mention that those basic classes, like algebra and world history seem to missing from the curriculum too. It can't hurt anyone trying herbology to know some basic plant science, nor anyone who uses astronomy for any purpose to know some physics. I mean, even in the wizarding world objects follow the Newtonian laws for the most part. Magic allows you to bend some of those rules but you can't escape them altogether.

by **sje46** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:38 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Not to mention that those basic classes, like algebra and world history seem to missing from the curriculum too. It can't hurt anyone trying herbology to know some basic plant science, nor anyone who uses astronomy for any purpose to know some physics. I mean, even in the wizarding world objects follow the Newtonian laws for the most part. Magic allows you to bend some of those rules but you can't escape them altogether.

I seem to recall Hermoine taking algebra in one of the earlier books (I only read the first four).

Also, you should have a spoiler tag in the topic.

This is a really interesting topic, by the way.

by **PatrickRsGhost** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:01 am UTC

sje46 wrote:
PAstrychef wrote:Not to mention that those basic classes, like algebra and world history seem to missing from the curriculum too. It can't hurt anyone trying herbology to know some basic plant science, nor anyone who uses astronomy for any purpose to know some physics. I mean, even in the wizarding world objects follow the Newtonian laws for the most part. Magic allows you to bend some of those rules but you can't escape them altogether.

I seem to recall Hermoine taking algebra in one of the earlier books (I only read the first four).

I think she actually took Numerology, which deals with how certain numbers affect a person's personality, health, wealth, and other astrology crap. The irony here is that while she dissed Divination, Numerology is a sort of divination.

As for world history, they learned history in the sense of magic/wizard history. Remember those History of Magic classes with the only professor who was a ghost? Professor Binns? He's not used in any of the movies, but there are some critical events surrounding those classes in the books.

by **Amarantha** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:18 am UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:The thing that always bothered me was the lack of a Magical computer.

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.

by **H2SO4** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:35 am UTC

I would also like to point out that the reason Hogwarts had MANY of those mishaps is because Harry is there.

Spoiler:

by **axilog14** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:02 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Not to mention that those basic classes, like algebra and world history seem to missing from the curriculum too. It can't hurt anyone trying herbology to know some basic plant science, nor anyone who uses astronomy for any purpose to know some physics. I mean, even in the wizarding world objects follow the Newtonian laws for the most part. Magic allows you to bend some of those rules but you can't escape them altogether.

Hogwarts is like secondary school for wizards, right? (First-years at Hogwarts are typically 9-10 years old.)

Maybe they master the "basic" Muggle-applicable stuff like math and science at whatever the wizard equivalent for primary school is.

by **Jorpho** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:34 pm UTC

The Merlin cycle of The Chronicles of Amber features Ghostwheel the magical computer quite prominently. It's the best example I know of, aside from the aforementioned Hex.

PatrickRsGhost wrote:
sje46 wrote:
PAstrychef wrote:Not to mention that those basic classes, like algebra and world history seem to missing from the curriculum too. It can't hurt anyone trying herbology to know some basic plant science, nor anyone who uses astronomy for any purpose to know some physics. I mean, even in the wizarding world objects follow the Newtonian laws for the most part. Magic allows you to bend some of those rules but you can't escape them altogether.
I seem to recall Hermoine taking algebra in one of the earlier books (I only read the first four).
I think she actually took Numerology, which deals with how certain numbers affect a person's personality, health, wealth, and other astrology crap. The irony here is that while she dissed Divination, Numerology is a sort of divination.

Nay, the word is arithmancy. Although that is apparently an actual Greek thing, the exact nature of the course is not discussed in the books. (Kind of unfortunate, really. I like to think it would have been quite different from numerology, which is icky, as you suggest.)

by **animeHrmIne** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:09 am UTC

Hermione takes Arithmancy and Numerology. In her third year, when she was time-hopping like a maniac, she was taking Arithmancy, but after she dropped some classes, she ended up taking Numerology for the rest of the years. At least, that's what I remember. I always thought of it like taking Pre-Algebra before taking advanced math classes.

In the books, they never mention primary schools. Parents are usually responsible for their children being able to read, write, and do basic maths.

Also, it wasn't technology in general that didn't work, it was specifically electronics. Thus why Harry's watch worked in the first books, but they couldn't "bug" Rita Skeeter. Which always brought something to mind for me: Why didn't muggleborns from the 70s onward bring things like typewriters to school? Or do things in pencil with sharpeners? That was the first thing I thought of when we got that piece of information, why weren't Hermione and Lily typing their papers, or at least writing them with erasable material? That's what I'd do -- buy an old typewriter and type my papers out, much easier.

by **Jorpho** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:17 am UTC

animeHrmIne wrote:but after she dropped some classes, she ended up taking Numerology for the rest of the years. At least, that's what I remember.

Well, it's not mentioned in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogwarts_subjects .

by **SecondTalon** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:34 pm UTC

animeHrmIne wrote:Also, it wasn't technology in general that didn't work, it was specifically electronics. Thus why Harry's watch worked in the first books, but they couldn't "bug" Rita Skeeter. Which always brought something to mind for me: Why didn't muggleborns from the 70s onward bring things like typewriters to school? Or do things in pencil with sharpeners? That was the first thing I thought of when we got that piece of information, why weren't Hermione and Lily typing their papers, or at least writing them with erasable material? That's what I'd do -- buy an old typewriter and type my papers out, much easier.

It seems like the Wizarding World is extremely resistant to change. Combined with their paranoia and ... bloodism? Caste-ism? And racist on top of that.. you pretty much end up with a culture operating under "If we didn't think of it, it's crap" mentality. They didn't think of using simple spells working together in a complex way to make a magical computer first, so computers are stupid and it's better to do it by hand or however the hell they do it.

by **clockworkmonk** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:46 pm UTC

SexyTalon wrote:It seems like the Wizarding World is extremely resistant to change. Combined with their paranoia and ... bloodism? Caste-ism? And racist on top of that.. you pretty much end up with a culture operating under "If we didn't think of it, it's crap" mentality. They didn't think of using simple spells working together in a complex way to make a magical computer first, so computers are stupid and it's better to do it by hand or however the hell they do it.

While true, it does not take into account the constant influx of people who were not raised in that system. There are plenty of Muggle-borns, some of which might be more willing to break the trend then those who were raised in it.

by **Izawwlgood** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:00 pm UTC

I was more taken aback at how after seven years of schooling, Harry still basically sucked as a wizard, compared to Hermione or even Ron.

by **Vanguard** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:21 am UTC

Them, and even Neville had a jump in skill himself.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:15 pm UTC

clockworkmonk wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:It seems like the Wizarding World is extremely resistant to change. Combined with their paranoia and ... bloodism? Caste-ism? And racist on top of that.. you pretty much end up with a culture operating under "If we didn't think of it, it's crap" mentality. They didn't think of using simple spells working together in a complex way to make a magical computer first, so computers are stupid and it's better to do it by hand or however the hell they do it.
While true, it does not take into account the constant influx of people who were not raised in that system. There are plenty of Muggle-borns, some of which might be more willing to break the trend then those who were raised in it.

Sure, but the system itself still considers them to be lessers, so it's possible they never get the funding necessary to build magicomputers or whatever. And while they may not be raised from birth in the system, they do seem to spend their formative years in the system, which probably leaves them with incredible self-esteem problems and so on.

I think Harry sucked simply because he never had to try, really. So long as he was at least a passable magic user, he was still hailed as the one who lived or reviled as that kid who sees Voldy in shadows. His actual competence was rarely called in to question or remarked upon, and he did the usual Hero's Journey thing of relying on friends to overcome obstacles, which as he already has fame attached to his name probably leaves him, in the popular sense, as being the sole responsible individual for the various problems solved at Hogwarts over the years. Harry was involved in the investigation and cleanup, Harry's already proven to be able to survive Voldamort, ergo Harry solved the problem himself.

So the whole thing's about a mediocre at best wizard who happens to have competent friends and a luck streak a mile wide.

by **Izawwlgood** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:41 pm UTC

Which is why I found it pretty funny that J.K. Rowling made a point of enphasizing that Harry's friends and loved ones, namely, those that strived to protect him, were his greatest asset in his fight against Voldemort. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the Hero relying on friends over his journey, but in my experience, good Heroes are able to stand alone and fend for themselves. Harry's moments of standing for himself are routinely, across the seven books, resolved via acts of luck or an allies actual efforts, to get him through.

by **Rinsaikeru** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:49 pm UTC

I suppose we're discounting the Goblet of Fire ending where he faces Death Eaters head on and brings back the body of a fallen comrade? Or facing down Quirrell alone in Philosopher's Stone, or deciding to trust Sirius in the Prisoner of Azkaban etc. He lacks being brought up around magic and he doesn't have the keen urge to study Hermione does.

He does passably well in his subjects and excels in Defence Against the Dark Arts and flying. He'd do better at potions without the constant goading from Snape. How good does he have to be at school exactly for him to be worthy of being a hero? Even then, a Hero story doesn't require that the hero be spectacular at everything--it's usually better when they aren't. Luck, a bit of skill and good friends are much better than a character who is just good at everything naturally.

by **Izawwlgood** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:49 pm UTC

The only spell Harry reliably uses is the Patronus, and isn't there some mention of him basically having access to his fathers attributes or such with it? I don't think Harry is a bad guy, clearly he's brave and willing to fight for his friends, but they exhibit such an order of magnitude more familiarity and mastery of the subjects they are studying and the basic premise of wizardry, that Harry just sort of routinely comes off as that likable jock who makes some bitchin' chairs and such in shop class, but pretty much barely skirts by the rest of his academics, passing only because some of his buddies stay up all night helping him cram, and actually eventually only winning the big game because someone else works their ass off.

by **TaintedDeity** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:51 pm UTC

Keep in mind he's got bigger shit to worry about a lot of the time.

by **Izawwlgood** » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:56 pm UTC

I think that was the longest run on sentence I've ever written by the way.

Sure, and he doesn't have the support system of a family, yaddayada. Harry walks around with broken glasses for a couple periods until Hermione meets up with him, and in passing flicks her wand and goes "Repario" or such. Because you know, naturally Harry wouldn't have thought of using a spell that repairs minor breaks on something like his glasses. For any sense of attachment to characters, I felt that Hermione and Ron were the only of the three friends that really developed. Harry just sort of shuffled and ambled his way through catastrophe, and came out with a plucky spirit.

by **GhostWolfe** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:30 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Because you know, naturally Harry wouldn't have thought of using a spell that repairs minor breaks on something like his glasses.

Of course he wouldn't. They hadn't even arrived at school yet, Harry wouldn't know how to cast a spell if his wand was animated and sentient

/angell

by **PatrickRsGhost** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:57 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Because you know, naturally Harry wouldn't have thought of using a spell that repairs minor breaks on something like his glasses.
Of course he wouldn't. They hadn't even arrived at school yet, Harry wouldn't know how to cast a spell if his wand was animated and sentient

Right. He never gave it a second thought to really read any of his books. I think he glanced through them, but never really bothered to really read them before arriving at the school. Hermione had apparently read the books after she first received her letter and purchased them, probably on the way back home.

And to correct a point made earlier:

Spoiler:

.

Rinsaikeru wrote:He does passably well in his subjects and excels in Defence Against the Dark Arts and flying. He'd do better at potions without the constant goading from Snape. How good does he have to be at school exactly for him to be worthy of being a hero? Even then, a Hero story doesn't require that the hero be spectacular at everything--it's usually better when they aren't. Luck, a bit of skill and good friends are much better than a character who is just good at everything naturally.

He did get better at Potions in his sixth term, when he borrowed the worn copy of the textbook, with all the extra notes and instructions from the Half-Blood Prince. That, and the bit of self-confidence that Slughorn instills into Harry by always commenting on how his (Harry's) mother was supposedly a genius at Potion-making, and how he (Harry) had apparently inherited her skills. Yo, Lily had sum mad potion-makin' skillz, dawg. Harry be tight wit' doze skillz, a'ight?

by **H2SO4** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:45 am UTC

GhostWolfe wrote:Of course he wouldn't. They hadn't even arrived at school yet, Harry wouldn't know how to cast a spell if his wand was animated and sentient

Spoiler:

by **altair4** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:59 pm UTC

as to tech not working at hogwarts typewriters are a good idea but they were still using quills and ink on scrolls!
surely a Biro or a nice fountain pen would be fine, it's not that high tech. would a machine to make a4 paper be too complicated?

In a world with radios anything up to that tech level should work. Their entire civilisation seems to be built on muggle technology with added magic, magic houses, bikes, cars, clocks, paintings, film based cameras,tents, binoculars...
why stop there? would a magic mobile phone be fundamentally different, sms would work better than owls.

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