Increasing Muscle Mass

[bbq]

Is there anything in my diet or lifestyle I could do to help increase the speed at which I gain muscle mass?

I have an ectomorphic body type, but I don't find it incredibly difficult to gain mass. At the moment, I'm eating between 3000-3200 calories a day, with about 110-130g of protein and an equal balance between carbohydrates and fat. The only supplement I use is protein shakes occasionally, if I haven't been able to get enough protein from the food I've eaten that day. I sleep between 5 and 7 hours every night, I don't drink alcohol, and I occasionally drink drinks containing caffeine. Apart from my 3 day a week routine, I am not excessively active. I am about 5'10 and weigh 143lb, and have been gaining about 1lb per 2 to 3 weeks for the last 3 or 4 months.

My exercise routine at the moment is based on low-rep and high-weight big compound movements (squat, deadlift, pullups, shoulder press), with some additional exercises with a higher rep approach.

Anything I could be doing wrong, or is 1lb per 2 to 3 weeks pretty much the most I will probably be able to gain?

[Victoria Maddison]

Is there anything in my diet or lifestyle I could do to help increase the speed at which I gain muscle mass?

Anything I could be doing wrong, or is 1lb per 2 to 3 weeks pretty much the most I will probably be able to gain?

You aren't getting enough calories, protein, or sleep, and you aren't training as efficiently as you could be (as I recall from your previous thread).

[poohat]

you can gain 'weight' as fast as you like, its not like theres anything stopping you. If you eat more then youll gain more. Muscle (rather than fat) gain is a slow process though.

1lb every 2 weeks isnt unreasonable, assuming that its all muscle. Maybe eat a bit more, but dont go beyond 1lb a week or youll just get fat. If youve gained 8lbs of pure muscle in the last 4 months then you certainly have nothing to complain about.

Have your lifts been increasing? If your bench/squat/deadlift arent consistently going up, then it might be time to reevaluate (and eat more).

[bbq]

You aren't getting enough calories, protein, or sleep, and you aren't training as efficiently as you could be (as I recall from your previous thread).

How much would be enough calories and protein, then?

you can gain 'weight' as fast as you like, its not like theres anything stopping you. If you eat more then youll gain more. Muscle (rather than fat) gain is a slow process though.

1lb every 2 weeks isnt unreasonable, assuming that its all muscle. Maybe eat a bit more, but dont go beyond 1lb a week or youll just get fat. If youve gained 8lbs of pure muscle in the last 4 months then you certainly have nothing to complain about.

Have your lifts been increasing? If your bench/squat/deadlift arent consistently going up, then it might be time to reevaluate (and eat more).

It hasn't all been muscle, but my body fat percentage has stayed the same (5.7%), so I guess thats ok?

My squat and deadlift are going up fine, but my bench has kinda stalled recently.

[shocklocks]

How much would be enough calories and protein, then?

3500calories above excess a week should give you an increase of roughly 1lb per week. Since it's taking you 2-3weeks per pound you're probably closer to an excess of 1400 a week. In order to make up the extra 2100 calories you'd need to eat 300more each day so roughly 3500cals total. I'm not sure what your exact program is but it's not uncommon for skinny people doing starting strength to eat at a higher caloric excess than this while they're taking advantage of the fact that they can make the most noticeable difference during the first few months of the program.

[bbq]

Well I'll have to start eating more then. This shouldn't be too tricky, I rarely eat in the morning.

I'm doing practical programming off the starting strength wiki with some added sets for individual muscles because I'm vain, basically.

EDIT: hmm, I counted up the calories from what I ate today and I think I went wrong with the maths somehow because I got 4482 calories.


What I ate today (yeah, there's lots of unhealthy things, but its not a major concern to me because I'm seeminly unable to gain any fat):

Chicken mayonnaise sandwich (501 calories)
2 packets of wotsits (424 calories)
2 packets of skips (178 calories)
1.5 litres of whole milk (1005 calories)
50g of nuts (330 calories)
quarter of a quiche (255 calories)
3 fried eggs (276 calories)
a piece of gammon (155 calories)
2 pieces of fried bacon (450 calories)
fried mushrooms (179 calories)
4 sausages (300 calories)
100g of cheese (429 calories)

(501+424+178+1005+330+255+276+155+450+179+300+429)

[shocklocks]

Uhhh.. A few quick things..

What individual exercises are you doing? They're probably the reason you're stalling on your bench..

WhyyyyyyyYYyyyyy would you skip meals in the morning? You should be eating a big breakfast first thing in the morning to make up for the fact you havn't eaten in the past 8-9 hours!

If the weight gain thing is really troubling you that much you might want to give the GOMAD approach a try. Could also look into creatine?

[bbq]

Uhhh.. A few quick things..

What individual exercises are you doing? They're probably the reason you're stalling on your bench..

WhyyyyyyyYYyyyyy would you skip meals in the morning? You should be eating a big breakfast first thing in the morning to make up for the fact you havn't eaten in the past 8-9 hours!

If the weight gain thing is really troubling you that much you might want to give the GOMAD approach a try. Could also look into creatine?

Just biceps and occasionally some triceps, but I think the main reason I'm stalling on bench is my shoulders, they seem a lot weaker than they should be. I'm not quite sure how to sort it out, and at the moment I've been stuck on the same weight for a few weeks. (I've only started doing a bit of triceps in the last week)

I skip meals in the morning because I physically can't force myself to eat in the morning, at least before 11. I normally have quite bad stomach cramps and feel like I'd vomit if I tried to eat anything (another problem I have no idea how to sort out)

I'll definitely try that GOMAD method, which works out to roughly 3.78 litres, right? The only problem is any money I used to buy extra milk cuts into my other-food money, and I've tried and failed to get my parents to buy enough milk to try a gallon a day.

[poohat]

It hasn't all been muscle, but my body fat percentage has stayed the same (5.7%), so I guess thats ok?

My squat and deadlift are going up fine, but my bench has kinda stalled recently.

I seriously doubt you have < 6% body fat, how are you measuring it?

[bbq]

It hasn't all been muscle, but my body fat percentage has stayed the same (5.7%), so I guess thats ok?

My squat and deadlift are going up fine, but my bench has kinda stalled recently.

I seriously doubt you have < 6% body fat, how are you measuring it?

With one of those things you hold in your hands, is all they got at our gym for measuring body fat. I can't honestly say that there is any fat on me anywhere that I can see, but if you want I'll attempt some other way of measuring my bodyfat?

EDIT: a Bioelectrical Impedance is what its called, I think.

[Nath]

Just biceps and occasionally some triceps, but I think the main reason I'm stalling on bench is my shoulders, they seem a lot weaker than they should be. I'm not quite sure how to sort it out, and at the moment I've been stuck on the same weight for a few weeks. (I've only started doing a bit of triceps in the last week)

Is your (overhead) press still going up?

As for breakfast, how about a glass of milk and a small snack to start with? You can have more to eat once you're fully awake. This is what I do, given that I'm not a breakfast person either.

With one of those things you hold in your hands, is all they got at our gym for measuring body fat. I can't honestly say that there is any fat on me anywhere that I can see, but if you want I'll attempt some other way of measuring my bodyfat?

Calipers? As far as I know, it takes some training to take accurate measurements with those.

[bbq]

Is your (overhead) press still going up?

As for breakfast, how about a glass of milk and a small snack to start with? You can have more to eat once you're fully awake. This is what I do, given that I'm not a breakfast person either.

Its going up, albeit very slowly. I recently strained my shoulder so thats completely set me back as far as overhead press is concerned.

I'll give it a go, its probably just part of my general not-being-a-morning-person.

And no, A bioelectrical impedence analysis machine, or something similiar.

[Likpok]

From what I've heard, the electrical impedance machines are really only useful to tell changes in bodyfat within a specific subject. You must also hold it exactly the same each time (as how you hold it can affect the result).

So take it's number with a grain of salt.

[bbq]

I will. What should I use instead?

On a related note to the topic, my bench press shot up from struggling with 132lb to some decent sets with 143lb, which I was fairly satisfied with.

[akashra]

Some dot points.

1. Heam protein. Try to aim for at least 1.5:1 ratio of grams per kg of body mass.
2. Non-heam protein. On top of the other protein. This includes from sources like whey and soy, use this to bring your total protein intake up to 2.0-2.5:1 in grams:kg.
3. Creatine. If you're game. Creatine will, however, increase your muscle's water absorption. You'll put on maybe 3-4kg in the first week or two, as your body becomes like a sponge.
4. Stretch! I can't emphasize this enough. Massage helps too. Muscle won't grow when it's tightly bound. When it's flexible and able to freely move and grow, it'll grow and heal quicker.
5. Rest. 90% of training is about rest. If you're just training non-stop and not allowing your body to recover, it's just deteriorating.
6. Not really in aid of growth, but muscle use: Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Zinc and Iron.
Calcium helps your muscles contract - to put force out. Magnesium and Potassium allow them to relax. Zinc helps sores and wound healing, but you still want it at a reasonable level. If zinc tablets taste horrible and metallic, you're eating enough. If your fingernails are white or grow slowly, you're way low. Iron I mention as if you're too low, you'll end up fatigued - but don't take supplements. You'll get enough from red meat.
7. Frequent, small meals. DO NOT skip breakfast. Try to eat 6 meals a day, or at least snacks. Eg, for me it goes something like:
- 6:00 - Breakfast, then ride to work.
- 7:45 - snack, within 15 mins of finishing riding - usually a muesli bar or banana.
- 10:00 - snack.
- 12:30 - decent size lunch.
- 3:00 - snack - usually fruit+nuts
- 6:30 - dinner

Hope this helps.

[Victoria Maddison]

4. Stretch! I can't emphasize this enough. Massage helps too. Muscle won't grow when it's tightly bound.

[citation needed]

7. Frequent, small large meals. DO NOT skip breakfast.

Fixed.

[bbq]

1. Heam protein. Try to aim for at least 1.5:1 ratio of grams per kg of body mass.
2. Non-heam protein. On top of the other protein. This includes from sources like whey and soy, use this to bring your total protein intake up to 2.0-2.5:1 in grams:kg.

Ok I'm not really sure what you mean here, by heam/non-heam protein, but I've been getting at least 2 grams for each kg of bodyweight.

3. Creatine. If you're game. Creatine will, however, increase your muscle's water absorption. You'll put on maybe 3-4kg in the first week or two, as your body becomes like a sponge.

I said I'd start creatine when I hit 70kg, which I should next week. I don't actually have any money to buy any creatine, but I'll be getting it soon.

4. Stretch! I can't emphasize this enough. Massage helps too. Muscle won't grow when it's tightly bound. When it's flexible and able to freely move and grow, it'll grow and heal quicker.
5. Rest. 90% of training is about rest. If you're just training non-stop and not allowing your body to recover, it's just deteriorating.

I stretch before exercise, but not the rest of the time. And I spend most of my time sitting on my ass, eating.

6. Not really in aid of growth, but muscle use: Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Zinc and Iron.
Calcium helps your muscles contract - to put force out. Magnesium and Potassium allow them to relax. Zinc helps sores and wound healing, but you still want it at a reasonable level. If zinc tablets taste horrible and metallic, you're eating enough. If your fingernails are white or grow slowly, you're way low. Iron I mention as if you're too low, you'll end up fatigued - but don't take supplements. You'll get enough from red meat.

I'll keep that in mind.. Are there some multi-vitamin things you can get to top up on all of them?

7. Frequent, small meals. DO NOT skip breakfast. Try to eat 6 meals a day, or at least snacks. Eg, for me it goes something like:
- 6:00 - Breakfast, then ride to work.
- 7:45 - snack, within 15 mins of finishing riding - usually a muesli bar or banana.
- 10:00 - snack.
- 12:30 - decent size lunch.
- 3:00 - snack - usually fruit+nuts
- 6:30 - dinner

Whats the benefits of smaller meals throughout the day? Because I generally have some milk around 7, a snack around 11, a large meal around 12, a snack around half 3, a snack around half 5, then I eat constantly from half 6 to 11.

[akashra]

Ok I'm not really sure what you mean here, by heam/non-heam protein, but I've been getting at least 2 grams for each kg of bodyweight.

Heam is animal based. Red meats in particularly. Non-heam is stuff like protein from soy, whey, nuts etc. It relates to how efficiently it works and is absorbed, but is more important when talking about Heam iron/non-heam iron. I'm actually not sure what protein from milk or cheese is classified as, but it's certainly efficient at a much lower rate than red meat.

[Victoria Maddison]

Heam is animal based. Red meats in particularly. Non-heam is stuff like protein from soy, whey, nuts etc. It relates to how efficiently it works and is absorbed, but is more important when talking about Heam iron/non-heam iron. I'm actually not sure what protein from milk or cheese is classified as, but it's certainly efficient at a much lower rate than red meat.

[citation needed]

This is wrong.

[psyck0]

Ok I'm not really sure what you mean here, by heam/non-heam protein, but I've been getting at least 2 grams for each kg of bodyweight.

Heam is animal based. Red meats in particularly. Non-heam is stuff like protein from soy, whey, nuts etc. It relates to how efficiently it works and is absorbed, but is more important when talking about Heam iron/non-heam iron. I'm actually not sure what protein from milk or cheese is classified as, but it's certainly efficient at a much lower rate than red meat.

Uhhh... no? Protein is protein. It is pretty much completely degraded to individual amino acids before your body even absorbs it, so its structure and source really don't matter in the slightest (as long as it is a complete source of amino acids). If you were right, vegetarians would die or something.

"Heme" is the iron-containing oxygen transport group in erythrocytes. It's a component of hemoglobin. I have no idea what "Heam" is.

[Nath]

Uhhh... no? Protein is protein. It is pretty much completely degraded to individual amino acids before your body even absorbs it, so its structure and source really don't matter in the slightest (as long as it is a complete source of amino acids). If you were right, vegetarians would die or something.

"Heme" is the iron-containing oxygen transport group in erythrocytes. It's a component of hemoglobin. I have no idea what "Heam" is.

(hēm)
n. 1. The afterbirth or secundines of a beast.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam Co.

Also, 'haem' is the British spelling of 'heme'.

From here:

Plant foods contain only nonheme iron, which is more sensitive than heme iron to both inhibitors and enhancers of iron absorption. Inhibitors of iron absorption include phytate; calcium; teas, including some herb teas; coffee; cocoa; some spices; and fiber (40). Vitamin C and other organic acids found in fruits and vegetables can enhance iron absorption and can help to reduce effects of phytate ([41], [42], [43]). Studies show that iron absorption would be significantly reduced if a diet were to be high in inhibitors and low in enhancers. Recommended iron intakes for vegetarians are 1.8 times those of nonvegetarians because of lower bioavailability of iron from a vegetarian diet (44).

I'm actually not sure what protein from milk or cheese is classified as, but it's certainly efficient at a much lower rate than red meat.

I don't think milk is a source of iron, so the heme/nonheme issue doesn't really arise. This seems to be a matter of iron usability, not protein usability.

[psyck0]

I assumed he didn't actually mean afterbirth.
if he is advising red meat because of iron, that's just silly. You can easily take a multivitamin.

[Victoria Maddison]

if he is advising red meat because of iron, that's just silly. You can easily take a multivitamin.

Multivitamins for men shouldn't contain iron.

[Nath]

I assumed he didn't actually mean afterbirth.
if he is advising red meat because of iron, that's just silly. You can easily take a multivitamin.

Well, yeah, I just threw that definition in because I found it amusing.

And sure, I guess you could take a multivitamin to get your iron, or you could just, you know, eat a balanced diet. I don't think iron-deficiency anaemia is very common unless you're pregnant and/or vegetarian.

[psyck0]

if he is advising red meat because of iron, that's just silly. You can easily take a multivitamin.

Multivitamins for men shouldn't contain iron.

Huh, I didn't know that. I've never known anyone with an iron deficiency who wasn't a female vegetarian, though.

[Victoria Maddison]

Iron deficiency is common amongst women with heavy menses.

[akashra]

Huh, I didn't know that. I've never known anyone with an iron deficiency who wasn't a female vegetarian, though.

Hi, meet me - the 27yo male who after November 2008 had Iron Deficiency Anemia. I strongly recommend against (and most doctors likely will too) taking iron supplements.


You're right VM - you do need a citation to show that I'm wrong. I didn't know that we cited things which are taught to primary school students and considered common knowledge. Maybe this goes a long way to explain the failing education and massive obesity rates in some countries.
If you honestly think 'protein is protein', you need to go back to school. And to clarify, I was talking about milk as a source of protein, not iron.

[Nath]

And to clarify, I was talking about milk as a source of protein, not iron.

Are you claiming that hemeproteins are more efficient in terms of iron usability or protein usability? The former makes sense, but isn't relevant if you're talking about the value of foods are protein sources. As far as I know, the latter is not true.

[Victoria Maddison]

You're right VM - you do need a citation to show that I'm wrong. I didn't know that we cited things which are taught to primary school students and considered common knowledge. Maybe this goes a long way to explain the failing education and massive obesity rates in some countries. If you honestly think 'protein is protein', you need to go back to school.

The biological value, digestibility and net utilization of milk protein is higher than that of beef. The figures for whey protein (which is extracted from milk) are even higher.

[shocklocks]

school students and considered common knowledge. Maybe this goes a long way to explain the failing education and massive obesity rates in some countries. If you honestly think 'protein is protein', you need to go back to school.

Ignoring everything else the whole "OBESITY EPIDEMIC. PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO KNOW WHATS GOOD FOR THEM" sort of arguments pretty much take away what was left of your credibility. How can you be insulting Victoria's intelligence when you're dumb enough to buy into the whole notion that obesity is the huge public issue the government makes it out to be.

[psyck0]

Huh, I didn't know that. I've never known anyone with an iron deficiency who wasn't a female vegetarian, though.

Hi, meet me - the 27yo male who after November 2008 had Iron Deficiency Anemia. I strongly recommend against (and most doctors likely will too) taking iron supplements.


You're right VM - you do need a citation to show that I'm wrong. I didn't know that we cited things which are taught to primary school students and considered common knowledge. Maybe this goes a long way to explain the failing education and massive obesity rates in some countries.
If you honestly think 'protein is protein', you need to go back to school. And to clarify, I was talking about milk as a source of protein, not iron.

Oh, I'm sure there are men who have iron deficiencies, just not very many. For men, it's almost always due to an illness, not a dietary problem, and so programming a diet to contain lots of iron will just give most men (and some women) iron poisoning.

Let's analyse your argument. "If you disagree with me, you're wrong." Wow. Real strong evidence, bub. Protein IS protein. It's all made up of amino acids. There are a few post-translational modifications, but those don't really affect the food value. The protein is digested first in your stomach by acids and pepsin into short peptides, and then completely digested in your small intestine by some more proteases. When it is absorbed, it is all single amino acids. The only thing that can affect food value, then, is how quickly it is broken down, which is dependent on its structure and sequence (how resistant it is to proteases). Whey protein is actually broken down very easily and gives a much faster release than red meat, hence why you take it after a work-out. In that sense, it arguably has a higher food value.

You keep saying that your belief is common knowledge, but you haven't even been clear what it your belief is, and you don't seem to know the proper words either (unless Heam has some meaning other than afterbirth which you have just decided not to tell us). Is it "common knowledge" like the vaccine-autism link, then? (That is to say, total crap.)

[Dom]

With your early statement that you are unable to get fat by eating a lot of crappy foods I will go on assuming you have an abnormally high metabolic rate.
The only way for you to build some serious mass is to eat a really much food, but that will probably be bothersome in the long run. I suggest you experiment with different calori intakes, increasing it until you start to gain some fat. Then you will know you are not using up all you are eating and your body can start going to work.

[bbq]

With your early statement that you are unable to get fat by eating a lot of crappy foods I will go on assuming you have an abnormally high metabolic rate.
The only way for you to build some serious mass is to eat a really much food, but that will probably be bothersome in the long run. I suggest you experiment with different calori intakes, increasing it until you start to gain some fat. Then you will know you are not using up all you are eating and your body can start going to work.

Cheers, getting back on topic.. I guess I do have an abnormally high metabolic rate, but I went up to 5100 calories for a week and didn't put any fat on, and I can't really afford to eat at that rate all the time. I seem to be putting enough mass on with 4000-4500 calories, so I think I'll stick to that.

[Dom]

. . . and I can't really afford to eat at that rate all the time. I seem to be putting enough mass on with 4000-4500 calories, so I think I'll stick to that.

There are ways, jimmy my friend, shortcuts.
You can use some kind of gainer, relatively inexpensive way of ensuring high enough intake of calories. I use a multitude of nutritional supplements (gainer is not one of them since I have the opposite problem, low metabolism). At least where I'm from (Norway), the supplements give you a lower $/kcal than chicken and beef.

But if there is one thing one must remember about training then remember this: continuity, no substitute for it

[bbq]

I'll be having a look for some good supplements sometime soon.

What you mean, continuity?

[Dom]

Don't skip trainings, don't compromise your diet. Every day counts. Maintain continuity to ensure progress.

[bbq]

Well, obviously No point in doing it if you aren't going to be dedicated.

Weighing around 151-152lb now, hoping to get to 154lb by Christmas.