New Joss Whedon Series: Dollhouse [Spoilers Within]

[Malice]

Spoiler:

it implies that Rossum knows a lot about Adelle's plan

How so? Rossum doesn't have any interest in what nightmare is recurring inside the people's brains, they're just making the nightmare happen so their brains work at full capacity for their supercomputer farm.

It's clear that there is at least some relationship between

Spoiler:

the Attic simulations and the problems being computed--the guy whose nightmare was the Dollpocalypse had the job of determining the probability that it would occur.

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

Yeah, but it seems like he was doing that before he was put in the attic, and the reason that is his recurring nightmare is because that's the most likely outcome and he feels responsible for it. Besides, that doesn't seem to be consistent with the other people's attic experiences. The way it was explained seemed to say that when the brain was in that state, it was very good at solving problems. They cause these nightmares to keep them in that state, not because the nightmare itself is important to them.

[aleflamedyud]

Spoiler:

But the Attic central-processing definitely feeds the nightmares realistic data, or else Echo's nightmare simulations on how to escape from the Attic wouldn't have had any resemblance to the reality of the place.

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

True, but if we think Clyde's was being used to calculate the likely outcomes of this technology, then everyone else should be doing something useful. How is Tony's nightmare helpful to Rossum? Priya's? Echo's? That guy who was eating his own legs?

[GodShapedBullet]

Spoiler:

Why would Rossom go ahead with the project if every projection predicted the tech would cause the end of civilization? How do they benefit.

This has kinda bugged me a lot ever since I thought of it. Sure, if they were looking to take over the world, fine, but a world without civilization doesn't really seem worth taking over to me.

[Voco]

Spoiler:

Why would Rossom go ahead with the project if every projection predicted the tech would cause the end of civilization? How do they benefit.

This has kinda bugged me a lot ever since I thought of it. Sure, if they were looking to take over the world, fine, but a world without civilization doesn't really seem worth taking over to me.

Spoiler:

Well, once everyone is imprinted, the can remake the world however they see fit. A brief period of anarchy may simply be a necessary cost until resistance is eliminated. After all, once everyone is under Rossum's control, an end to the strife is as simple as the push of a button.

[GodShapedBullet]

Spoiler:

Well, once everyone is imprinted, the can remake the world however they see fit. A brief period of anarchy may simply be a necessary cost until resistance is eliminated. After all, once everyone is under Rossum's control, an end to the strife is as simple as the push of a button.

Spoiler:

That makes sense, but that doesn't seem like what the projections are projecting, or what we see in Epitaph One. I'm not sure if we are to believe that Rossom just hates civilization (which is hard to believe) or if Rossom doesn't believe their own predictions (which is weird).

I guess it's possible that Rossom loses control, but if their computers are telling them they are going to, why aren't they acting on that information?

I can suspend my disbelief on this issue so it shouldn't ruin my appreciation of the show, but still. What's going on?

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

Rossum is a corporation. Perhaps they just thought that 3% was worth it to literally own everyone? They also mentioned in Epitaph One that the tech had been weaponized, and people other than Rossum had it. Rossum probably just thinks they can keep it under their control?

[aleflamedyud]

Spoiler:

True, but if we think Clyde's was being used to calculate the likely outcomes of this technology, then everyone else should be doing something useful. How is Tony's nightmare helpful to Rossum? Priya's? Echo's? That guy who was eating his own legs?

My personal theory is that since Clyde and Echo were aware of the process on a level they could dream up simulations where everyone else just had nightmares. My other personal theory is that a wizard did it.

Spoiler:

Why would Rossom go ahead with the project if every projection predicted the tech would cause the end of civilization? How do they benefit.

This has kinda bugged me a lot ever since I thought of it. Sure, if they were looking to take over the world, fine, but a world without civilization doesn't really seem worth taking over to me.

This one's a lot simpler. This is a corporation that regularly hires people like Topher and Bennett. It's quite possible that they just run simulations and whatnot to explore the capabilities of their computer rather than to get results from the simulations. We may not have seen a damn thing of the actual programs they run on the Attic to obtain the actual output data.

[BlackSails]

Perhaps there is poor communication between depts - this is a corporation after all.

Its possible that the people who obtain the data dont want to tell their bosses "your plan sucks"

[Nath]

Spoiler:

I guess it's possible that Rossom loses control, but if their computers are telling them they are going to, why aren't they acting on that information?

I can suspend my disbelief on this issue so it shouldn't ruin my appreciation of the show, but still. What's going on?

Spoiler:

Well, the natural thing to do is to run some scenarios where Rossum keeps the technology and does the best they can to control it, and some scenarios where they act on the simulations (say, by trying to destroy the tech). My guess is that the latter scenarios worked out even worse. Perhaps the technology leaks, or gets invented by somebody else. Perhaps keeping the technology and hoping for the best is what maximizes the chances of keeping civilization intact.

Or, more likely, they first want to run more tests to get more reliable estimates of the risks. By the time they act on them, it'll be too late.

[aleflamedyud]

Perhaps there is poor communication between depts - this is a corporation after all.

Its possible that the people who obtain the data dont want to tell their bosses "your plan sucks"

Yes, but this is a TV corporation, where fear makes enough motive for everyone to give 110% and total devotion! Nobody fucks up, stops caring, or turns deliberately obstructive at EVIL TV CORPORATION!

[GodShapedBullet]

I watched the scene again, and I think it can be reasonably interpreted that the projections he's running are just his nightmare, and aren't necessarily the programs his brainpower is operating. It seems reasonably open to interpretation.

And since one interpretation seems quite silly to me (when you are a big powerful corporation, civilization is your friend), I'm going to go with the idea that Rossom has no idea about the projections.

[cephalopod9]

A lot of the worst case scenarios could be self generated, the way actual nightmares are. Which makes a plot hole of Echo's understanding of the Attic tech, but there are enough Deus Ex Machinas in this show, it seems silly to pick on just one.

Perhaps there is poor communication between depts - this is a corporation after all.

Its possible that the people who obtain the data dont want to tell their bosses "your plan sucks"

Especially when discovering a weakness makes you a weakness. And that doesn't end well for you.

Some redeeming qualities in the last two, tho' they also raise quite a number of stupid questions.

Like why a show about brain future science allows for so many one tap knock-outs. (besides having Star Trek quality stunt coordination)

[aleflamedyud]

Yeah, I kept wondering how they managed to knock each other with hits to the temple all the time while not using enough force to kill with such a strike.

[Nath]

Yeah, I kept wondering how they managed to knock each other with hits to the temple all the time while not using enough force to kill with such a strike.

This is a TV show. People don't get head trauma unless they need to get amnesia. Also, unless you're the hero, getting choked out kills you the instant you lose consciousness.

I don't know whether TV writers are genuinely so misinformed about these kinds of things, or they just figure that nobody cares. The harmless knockout thing could actually be a dangerous misconception to spread.

[cephalopod9]

I would be more or less ok with it, if they'd take 5 seconds to explain that it's a complex nerve technique, or what have you.

then again, freshly wiped Echo knocked out a big guy with a flower pot.

That's all around something I dislike about Whedon, I feel like I'm directly being asked to suspend my disbelief further.
Works alright in musicals, but if I am not a fan of unstable world building.

[aleflamedyud]

Technically I'm just reviving the Dollhouse discussion a few days before they air a new episode, but doesn't anyone else think that Alpha looks and sounds more than a bit like Glenn Beck?

[lemmings]

Alpha doesn't have a chalkboard.

[aleflamedyud]

My reactions to tonight's episode, without spoilers.

Hurray for Hot Nerd Love. That whole "reconstructing" thing really took just long enough for the plot to happen, didn't it? Could you please not kill people so quickly? HOLY SHIT I NEVER SAW THAT ONE COMING EVEN THOUGH IT MADE PERFECT SENSE IN RETROSPECT! THAT'S POSSIBLY THE BIGGEST PLOT TWIST I EVER SAW!! THAT GUY JUST GOT UPGRADED TO MAGNIFICENT BASTARD STATUS, BIG FUCKING TIME!!!!!!!!

Holy Shit Quotient, from 1 to 10: 20.

[Wolf]

Holy Shit Quotient, from 1 to 10: 20.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

I was not expecting any of that, at all.

Possible spoiler (but kept very vague, will spoil more when the conversation really starts):

Spoiler:

Every time a scene from Epitah One comes up a little part of my soul dies, because it reminds me of all the sadness that's coming around the bend.

[DoctorSubmarine]

Sorry LOST, but not even you could have come up with a twist that mind-frakkingly brilliant.

By the way, I call preemptive bullshit on anyone who says that they saw that one coming. There was ZERO indication of that being the case.

[ArgonV]

Saw what coming?

Spoiler:

Saunders shooting Bennett? No, did not see that one coming. Langton being the 'other' head of the Dollhouse? I honestly saw that one coming as soon as he went up to Echo in the chair. I am wondering what angle he is playing though

[Xeio]

Spoiler:

Langton being the 'other' head of the Dollhouse? I honestly saw that one coming as soon as he went up to Echo in the chair

You mean literally 10 seconds before they revealed it? I think we have different standards of "saw it coming".

Oh, and

WTF

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

I'd say you could argue how much he cared about Echo could be a hint it was him, but I'd say that's a little bit of a stretch.

[headprogrammingczar]

This has a good summary of the sort of things the latest revelation explains.

[DoctorSubmarine]

Saw what coming?

Spoiler:

Saunders shooting Bennett? No, did not see that one coming. Langton being the 'other' head of the Dollhouse? I honestly saw that one coming as soon as he went up to Echo in the chair. I am wondering what angle he is playing though

Well, both really. But any indication of the last one (besides the one you mentioned) is totally nonexistent.

[aleflamedyud]

Spoiler:

Honestly, I think they've sort of hinted at this thing with Boyd since Season 1, and definitely in Season 2. He's already shown once a willingness and ability to conceal information from DeWitt, and there's a number of mystery persons whose roles he can perform better than the people the other characters thought did them.

-Boyd was always asking little extra questions about how the wipes and imprints have been working on Echo. The first time was in 1x01, and it went further from there.
-Person who made that fake engagement in 1x02... had to be able to fake a background check by Rossum security. We had assumed Alpha, because they told us so. Alpha has never mentioned the matter.
-Person who stole Caroline's original hard-drive rather than the smashed backup. This person had to be able to access the Self Shelf, right? Who has that level of security access? Well, yes, Harding and his goons, but what would they care? Echo has been like a daughter to Boyd; he cares. In fact, I think he cared enough that he tried to delay by stealing the imprint wedge and thus giving Echo more time to develop enough control over her composite to suppress Caroline if necessary.
-Given his apparent focus on Caroline/Echo being "special", very little of his previously-purported sentiments actually seem to be lies. The best liar is the one who tells you the truth and lets your expectations do the deceiving.
-This very, very much makes sense out of Boyd's interest in Whiskey/Saunders. When he arrived he didn't know she was a doll. As a doll, she becomes a valuable asset to Boyd: a lover (apparently) and (supposedly) someone to use as a sleeper agent, or even just someone to manipulate (provided he didn't use her as a sleeper). Of course, they only said she was a sleeper agent. I saw no evidence of a sleeper's trigger. She was Claire and then she shot Bennet. I think she knew that would push Topher over the edge and did it to avenge herself.
-Boyd-the-Handler always seemed to have both a lot of smarts for otherwise-dumb muscle and seemed curiously able to ignore the moral ramifications that he quite-well understood.

There are other things I'll remember later.

Of course, it could actually be that the memory we saw was corrupted or edited. After all, we never saw the Russian-girl-in-the-elevator flashback from Epitaph One as-remembered. "The Attic" implies that it happened at some point, but with Joss Whedon shows you really do have to wait for the Word of God to really know. Also, Clive Ambrose's confrontation in Victor's body with an Adelle and Topher who still ran their own house never happened at all. So given the way that the show has given us the impression that nobody ever meets or sees Rossum's non-Clyde founder, I wouldn't actually be surprised if they Jossed all of us by having edited Caroline's memories in some way to replace the face and voice of Rossum's founder with that of say... some low-level employee. They certainly edit the other dolls' original personalities when necessary, by removing a pesky schizophrenia or PTSD. Why wouldn't they just edit out sensitive information?

That would leave us back where we began with one or two episodes to go, though. Even if we assume that Boyd is definitely Rossum's founder, however, that still leaves us a mystery as to why he runs around as Echo's fatherly handler, plays his role as head of security, and then joins the resistance force trying to take Rossum down without actually sabotaging anything. It also doesn't explain his motives for Rossum's long-term direction or for making Caroline a doll in the first place.

[ameretrifle]

Spoiler:

Saunders I knew as soon as I saw the camera angle, though reading that post of aleflamedyud's before I saw it might've helped. Right when she walked into the room, the framing of that particular shot-- that clued me in instantly. Whether I would've picked up on it if I hadn't known someone was going to die, though, I'll never know. Boyd... hmm. I don't know if I "saw it coming" as such, but I don't think I felt that surprised, either. I think... around when they put Caroline into the elevator, maybe the first time, definitely the second, was when I started suspecting. Didn't believe it 'till I saw it, but that's when the possibility occured to me. Adelle not having totally lost the plot last episode came as the bigger surprise, IMO.

It makes perfect sense, though. As I wailed about multiple times, they never did make the slightest move toward explaining what the hell he was doing there. Now we know why. In retrospect, that was a clue! I'm proud of picking up on it, even if I had no idea what it meant. ;D

In the previews, and I think in the office too, they were going on about her being the "key" to something... and saying that no, she would not be "just another active", which means they knew damn well she'd be trouble. They could have engineered it, but if they're so after her specifically, it must be something about her that changes things. Were they *trying* to create immunity/adaptability to the imprinting process? Trying to create a "better" race by creating people who are conglomerates of personalities like her? Or maybe trying to pull the old instrumentality scheme? Something about the whole thing seems a lot less practical/world-domination-y then one would previously have surmised. I got the impression they're looking for something kookier, crazier, more religious, at the very least more philosophical. RossumFounder!Boyd felt like a true believer, to me-- one of those particular zealots who know they're right and manipulate people without guilt or thought, because it's for some greater good. Now what on earth could that be?

Adelle was so badass it was awesome. And I loved seeing her with long hair, again, too-- I don't really like her new style much at all. There's gotta be a happy medium there somewhere. Very interesting, now, that Boyd himself has been pushing her down this path... does he intend her to fail, or does he actually intend for her to succeed?

Were both the lame guy and Boyd copies of the original founder, or was something else going on there? Lame guy admitted it outright, but I don't remember anything explicit about who/what Boyd is. Or was Lame Guy the other founder? I thought he'd have been in the Attic by then. Gah, I'm crap with names.

[Zeroignite]

Aside from all the massive HSQ madness, am I the only one who noticed when Caroline said that Bennet "looks like she could kill me with her brain"? That was a pretty brilliant actor allusion.

[aleflamedyud]

Spoiler:

My guess on the matter of whether Boyd is honestly working for the resistance or running a huge Xanatos Gambit on everyone? He's working for the resistance. Large corporations don't just have founders, they also have investors. Rossum has been stated to have a board of directors that consists of Clive Ambrose (implied to be Clyde Randolph the Nth), presumably Boyd, and... others. We may not actually see a personified Big Bad in the end, which would sort of fit with the series's constant theme of Rossum as the faceless evil corporation's faceless evil corporation. Honestly, however evil Boyd started out (ie: creating the Attic) he could have seen that the others were worse than himself. It would fit with everything else we've seen on this damn show. He also may not have anticipated wireless, chair-less, architecture-less imprinting, and may wish to try to stop that from being used since then it could, after all, be used on him.

Or it could turn out that he has some other goal we haven't learned. He does seem to honestly care about Caroline/Echo even when nobody is looking, even if just as a science project.

EDIT FOR A GUESS: Boyd has displayed all kinds of leet skillz throughout the show that he supposedly learned back when he was a cop (implied to have been a dirty, jaded cop). We know from "Echoes" that Boyd is not a doll. We now know that, as one of the founders of Rossum, he damn well knows his neurology well enough to build imprinting equipment and science from scratch. This means that he learned and developed all these skills For Realz, resulting in a polymath of almost-but-not-quite Composite Active proportions. His ultimate goal may be to the become the Omnidisciplinary, Immortal Kwisatz Haderach through neurotech, and that requires developing the science of a brain that can hold and manage multiple imprints in a stable composite personality.

Aside from all the massive HSQ madness, am I the only one who noticed when Caroline said that Bennet "looks like she could kill me with her brain"? That was a pretty brilliant actor allusion.

No, I noticed that. It was awesome, and on the matter of HSQ-ness... one of the reasons I didn't expect the guy who turned out to be the Big Bad of Rossum was that I expected the-guy-who-played-Niska, David Boreanaz, or Adam Baldwin to appear in that role -- someone who would come when Joss called and had a proven ability to walk the line between a subtle, threatening villain and a terrifically hammy one.

[Amnesiasoft]

Spoiler:

Were both the lame guy and Boyd copies of the original founder

Spoiler:

Boyd can't be, remember the episode with the drug making people crazy? It doesn't do anything to those with the Dollhouse architecture, and Boyd definitely was not immune. I suppose he could have been faking it, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

[Nath]

On Boyd:

Spoiler:

Although Boyd being the founder explains a bunch of things from previous episodes, it doesn't make a bit of sense w.r.t. the current plot. Why go to all this trouble to make sure Echo finds out his identity from Caroline, when he could just tell her (if that's what his agenda required)? I'm sure they'll explain it next episode, so I don't find it a particularly troublesome plot hole. I just think it's strange that all the posts trying to make sense of the plot twists seem to leave this out.

On Doc:

Spoiler:

Shooting Bennett would have been way out of character for an unmodified Saunders, revenge issues and all. She was probably a sleeper, like they guessed. The other possibility was that she was starting to go rampant. The fact that she said 'I was number one' might have been meant as a hint, referring to her doll state before Alpha went all stabby.

On Whedon-jutsu:

Spoiler:

Why does everyone on TV have vertebrae made of thin, dry twigs? As it happens, turning someone's head to the side doesn't instantly kill them. Sometimes it annoys them slightly.

[headprogrammingczar]

On Whedon-Jutsu: You can break someone's neck like that, but it requires more force. You aren't going to try and deliver that much force to an actor, so you fake it by having the victim turn his head on his own, then fall down. It isn't a not-knowing-how-necks-work thing, it is a safety thing.

[aleflamedyud]

Just noting, but there's bunches of stuff in the filler episodes of both seasons that starts making a very ominous sort of sense when you apply later revelations to it.

For example, somewhere early in Season 1 Dr. Saunders notes that "Echo wasn't always #1." I just wish that in these "what? Echo is evolving!" episodes they could have put in more show and less tell.

[Princess Marzipan]

Aside from all the massive HSQ madness, am I the only one who noticed when Caroline said that Bennet "looks like she could kill me with her brain"? That was a pretty brilliant actor allusion.

I fucking loved that.

[BlackSails]

On Whedon-Jutsu: You can break someone's neck like that, but it requires more force. You aren't going to try and deliver that much force to an actor, so you fake it by having the victim turn his head on his own, then fall down. It isn't a not-knowing-how-necks-work thing, it is a safety thing.

Its going to be next to impossible to kill someone while you are both standing. You need a position where they cant just turn their body.

[aleflamedyud]

Spoiler:

Another mystery that Boyd's position as head of Rossum solves: the remote wipe in 1x04. Who was Echo talking to when "Alpha phreaked into the call" and performed the remote wipe? Boyd. Alpha didn't perform the remote wipe, and he never even broke into the call. Boyd stuck the remote wipe at the end of his call to Echo, and he knew how because he was the biggest, smartest evil scientist at a whole corporation full of evil scientists.

[Malice]

Boyd:

Spoiler:

In my opinion is also the spy we never found who imprinted Echo to deliver the message to Ballard post-Chinese-kitchen fight. Presumably to help Ballard help Alpha into the Dollhouse; Boyd knew what Alpha would want to do--ie., destroy Caroline utterly, which is the only way for Boyd to remain unidentified.

[aleflamedyud]

Boyd:

Spoiler:

In my opinion is also the spy we never found who imprinted Echo to deliver the message to Ballard post-Chinese-kitchen fight. Presumably to help Ballard help Alpha into the Dollhouse; Boyd knew what Alpha would want to do--ie., destroy Caroline utterly, which is the only way for Boyd to remain unidentified.

Spoiler:

I wouldn't go quite that far. I don't think he knew about Alpha's goals or methods, or even that Alpha would kill and replace Stephen Kepler. I do think that he was trying to make Echo develop by ensuring that she saw lots of weird shit. He could definitely have sent the messages (in one episode Topher even notes that he has access to the lab), but I'm not sure to what purpose.

The show still hasn't definitively answered that question: what is Rossum's purpose?

Oh, and has anyone noticed how they appeared to have changed certain elements of the series bible from seasons 1 to 2? I've noticed that in Season 1 the chair works on people without "Active architecture", because Topher was scared of being imprinted over, they used the chair to wipe Dominic (albeit with a bunch of wires, but that's not "cortical architecture"), and in Epitaph One they imprint Mr Miller and Iris. In Season 2 they then tell us that you actually can't use the chair on people without Active architecture, and they supposedly have to install it to make the chair work on Ballard's body. WTF?