Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

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Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Ixtellor » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:44 pm UTC

Interesting article by George Will today.

http://townhall.com/columnists/GeorgeWi ... estruction

The premise is that all the 'increase their self esteem' psychology is denying kids more important life lessons. And that you are not doing your kids a favor by constantly telling them "Oh me yarm Oh your so awsome!!"


Spoiler:
Memo to that Massachusetts school where children in physical education classes jump rope without using ropes: Get some ropes. And you -- you are about 85 percent of all parents -- who are constantly telling your children how intelligent they are: Do your children a favor and pipe down.

These are nuggets from "NurtureShock: New Thinking About Children" by Po Bronson and Ashley Merryman. It is another book to torment modern parents who are determined to bring to bear on their offspring the accumulated science of child-rearing. Modern parents want to nurture so skillfully that Mother Nature will gasp in admiration at the marvels their parenting produces from the soft clay of children.

Those Massachusetts children are jumping rope without ropes because of a self-esteem obsession. The assumption is that thinking highly of oneself is a prerequisite for high achievement. That is why some children's soccer teams stopped counting goals (think of the damaged psyches of children who rarely scored) and shower trophies on everyone. No child at that Massachusetts school suffers damaged self-esteem by tripping on the jump rope.

But the theory that praise, self-esteem and accomplishment increase in tandem is false. Children incessantly praised for their intelligence (often by parents who are really praising themselves) often underrate the importance of effort. Children who open their lunchboxes and find mothers' handwritten notes telling them how amazingly bright they are tend to falter when they encounter academic difficulties. Also, Bronson and Merryman say that overpraised children are prone to cheating because they have not developed strategies for coping with failure.
"We put our children in high-pressure environments," Bronson and Merryman write, "seeking out the best schools we can find, then we use the constant praise to soften the intensity of those environments." But children excessively praised for their intelligence become risk averse in order to preserve their reputations. Instead, Bronson and Merryman say, praise effort ("I like how you keep trying"): It is a variable children can control.

They often cannot control cars. In 1999, a Johns Hopkins University study found that some school districts that abolished driver's education courses experienced a 27 percent decrease in auto accidents among 16- and 17-year-olds. Odd.

Not really. Bronson and Merryman say driver's ed teaches the rules of the road and mechanics of driving, but teenagers are in fatal crashes at twice the rate of other drivers because of poor decisions, not poor skills. The wiring in the frontal lobe of the teenage brain is not fully formed. Driver's ed courses make getting a license easy, thereby increasing the supply of young drivers who actually have holes in their heads.

Their unfinished heads should spend more time on pillows. Only 5 percent of high school seniors get eight hours of sleep a night. Children get a hour less than they did 30 years ago, which subtracts IQ points and adds body weight.

Until age 21, the circuitry of a child's brain is being completed. Bronson and Merryman report research on grade schoolers showing that "the performance gap caused by an hour's difference in sleep was bigger than the gap between a normal fourth-grader and a normal sixth-grader." In high school there is a steep decline in sleep hours, and a striking correlation of sleep and grades.

Tired children have trouble retaining learning "because neurons lose their plasticity, becoming incapable of forming the new synaptic connections necessary to encode a memory. ... The more you learned during the day, the more you need to sleep that night."

The school day starts too early because that is convenient for parents and teachers. Awakened at dawn, teenage brains are still releasing melatonin, which makes them sleepy. This is one reason why young adults are responsible for half the 100,000 annual "fall asleep" automobile crashes. When Edina, Minn., changed its high school start from 7:25 a.m. to 8:30 a.m., math/verbal SAT scores rose substantially.

Furthermore, sleep loss increases the hormone that stimulates hunger and decreases the one that suppresses appetite. Hence the correlation between less sleep and more obesity.

Bronson and Merryman slay a slew of myths. But perhaps the soundest advice for parents is: Lighten up. People have been raising children for approximately as long as there have been people. Only recently -- about five minutes ago, relative to the long-running human comedy -- have parents been driving themselves to distraction by taking too seriously the idea that "as the twig is bent the tree's inclined." Twigs are not limitlessly bendable; trees will be what they will be.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby JBJ » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:03 pm UTC

Well.... yeah. If you constantly heap praise and shelter your children, they can't deal with failure. If you constantly berate your children and hold them to unattainable standards, they won't get any satisfaction from the success they do achieve. Life lesson? - Everything in moderation.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby tzvibish » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:08 pm UTC

Yes. Parenting is all about balance. Too much of any one method will destroy a kid. There are no rulebooks on this. Every child is different, and every child has a different line to toe. It's one of the hardest things to do, and most parents (including myself) aren't prepared for the challenge. You're forced to learn as you go.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Atlas. » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:09 pm UTC

I agree with the premise of his article that baseless adulation of kids is not a good thing, but I do wish he would have provided some research data or basis for his opinions. I'm not sure his statements are as self evident as he makes them sound. I think it is good to draw attention to someone who achieves something or meets a standard of excellence, but we shouldn't lower standards or artificially elevate mediocre achievements to make a child feel better. I also don't agree with him saying that school begins too early. For the rest of their life they will have to get up at 5:30 or 6:00 might as well get used to it.

And I think everything in moderation is a good sentiment.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Peter Galbavy » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:15 pm UTC

A few years ago we had some loony left agenda thrill seekers try to remove the word "fail" and replace it with "deferred success" in schools. No, seriously.

Like mentioned above, eveything in moderation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/education/4697461.stm

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:47 pm UTC

Peter Galbavy wrote:A few years ago we had some loony left agenda thrill seekers try to remove the word "fail" and replace it with "deferred success" in schools. No, seriously.

Like mentioned above, eveything in moderation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/education/4697461.stm


I love this commenter's line from that BBC article:
I like the idea, which appears sound to me. I propose to add the designation PhD (deferred success) to my name forthwith.
David Sneath, Leicester, UK


I think there's truism in the line "Kids have/are great Bullshit detectors." Hollow "Self Esteem" crap is just that, when everyone gets a trophy then not only is the trophy itself meaningless, but it makes the rewards of success just as meaningless.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Mokele » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:48 pm UTC

Atlas wrote:I agree with the premise of his article that baseless adulation of kids is not a good thing, but I do wish he would have provided some research data or basis for his opinions.


I got the impression most of it was from the book he references repeatedly.

Atlas wrote:I also don't agree with him saying that school begins too early. For the rest of their life they will have to get up at 5:30 or 6:00 might as well get used to it.


Attempting to force biology to fit economy won't work, ever. Work starts that early because *adults* tend to go to sleep earlier and wake up earlier (I know I've noticed that trend I close in on the big 3-0). Attempting to make kids' brains work like an adult's brain is like hiring a midget for the NBA and then berating him for not being able to dunk.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Atlas. » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:18 pm UTC

Mokele wrote:
Atlas wrote:I also don't agree with him saying that school begins too early. For the rest of their life they will have to get up at 5:30 or 6:00 might as well get used to it.

Attempting to force biology to fit economy won't work, ever. Work starts that early because *adults* tend to go to sleep earlier and wake up earlier (I know I've noticed that trend I close in on the big 3-0). Attempting to make kids' brains work like an adult's brain is like hiring a midget for the NBA and then berating him for not being able to dunk.


I don't think the majority of kids stay up that late so it should work out. Sleep is more of a routine and not a biolgical clock, we need a certain amount everynight kids more so than adults, but there is no reason they can't go to bed at 10:00 and get up at 6:00. That also makes it convienent to coincide with most people's work schedules so they don't have to worry about their kids being unsupervised for long periods of time. It would be better for parents to have their kids go to bed sooner, rather than trying to alter eveyone's schedule by pushing school back.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby wst » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:28 pm UTC

"When Edina, Minn., changed its high school start from 7:25 a.m. to 8:30 a.m., math/verbal SAT scores rose substantially."

Wait, what? The earliest I've ever heard of a school opening was 8, and that's in Spain where they have reasonably early starts. I thought most places opened at 8:45 or 9.

7.25... damn. That doesn't even follow '9-to-5' like the typical job...
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby bluestripe » Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:15 pm UTC

My high school (US) started at 7:20. Or if you had en extra morning class (like I did), 6:20.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Vaniver » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

One of Will's better columns, I thought. One of the side realizations in recent years was the "bullies have low self esteem" trope, often peddled by the same or similar people, was the opposite of true- oftentimes bullies have self esteem that is higher than their achievements, and are willing to use violence to make other people pretend with them.

The sleep thing is also something I experienced. I try to get 9-10 hours a sleep a night, and got about that much through high school- most of the people I knew were working on 6, or less. I always wondered how much trouble the other kids had was stupidity, and how much of it was fatigue- that scores would materially rise when school starts later is entirely unsurprising.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Mokele » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:27 pm UTC

Atlas wrote:Sleep is more of a routine and not a biolgical clock,


Flat-out wrong. Google "circadian rhythm" and "melatonin".
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Lazar » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:35 pm UTC

wst wrote:Wait, what? The earliest I've ever heard of a school opening was 8, and that's in Spain where they have reasonably early starts. I thought most places opened at 8:45 or 9.

7.25... damn. That doesn't even follow '9-to-5' like the typical job...

Yep, my high school opened at 7:20 (first class at 7:30), and it ended around 2. This conflicted with my natural inclination to stay up till 4 and wake up at noon, so I often struggled (and failed) to stay awake in class.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Dauric » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:54 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
wst wrote:Wait, what? The earliest I've ever heard of a school opening was 8, and that's in Spain where they have reasonably early starts. I thought most places opened at 8:45 or 9.

7.25... damn. That doesn't even follow '9-to-5' like the typical job...

Yep, my high school opened at 7:20 (first class at 7:30), and it ended around 2. This conflicted with my natural inclination to stay up till 4 and wake up at noon, so I often struggled (and failed) to stay awake in class.


A'yep, about 7:20 here too, ended around 3:45 (or something weird like that, I know it wasn't anything sensible like a flat hour or half-hour). I think it's a traffic consideration in the U.S. When school starts and ends there's a massive traffic jam in front of every school, then half an hour later you've got the next wave of insanity from people trying to get to work, then in the evening the process repeats itself in the other direction.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby EmptySet » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:04 am UTC

Every school I went to started at 9 or 9:15, and finished at 3:30. I'm not sure I would have been able to cope with a school that opened at 7:20; I had terrible insomnia as a teenager, especially in summer when the temperature didn't drop below 35 C until 1AM.

Anyway, I agree that constantly telling someone how good they are isn't the best parenting. Back in my day, we got told the we would fail at some things, and when we did we had to try, try, and try again until we got it right. And we had to walk fifty miles through the snow before each attempt.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby JBJ » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:01 am UTC

EmptySet wrote:Every school I went to started at 9 or 9:15, and finished at 3:30. I'm not sure I would have been able to cope with a school that opened at 7:20; I had terrible insomnia as a teenager, especially in summer when the temperature didn't drop below 35 C until 1AM.

Anyway, I agree that constantly telling someone how good they are isn't the best parenting. Back in my day, we got told the we would fail at some things, and when we did we had to try, try, and try again until we got it right. And we had to walk fifty miles through the snow before each attempt.

Snow? You were lucky! We had to walk 2,000 miles through a forest of cacti under the blazing sun in the dead of night with muggers and robbers at every turn. We had to be a school at 4:15am, and if we were a minute late the schoolmaster would lash us with a cat-o-nine tails. We had but one pencil to share between the lot of us and one piece of paper to write our essays on. But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby McDoom » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:39 am UTC

My high school started at 7:05AM. My first three years I went full time, staying up until 1-2AM and awaking four hours later to catch the bus. My final year, I only had class until noon. (Opposed to 3:30 the previous years.) At that point I was able to work the hours that I needed to and get my substantial homework finished before 10 each night. The difference that year was night and day, I would have done much better my first three years with just those extra 3-4 hours to sleep.

But, that's just me. I knew plenty of folks who did perfectly well with the fours hours of sleep. However, now, in college, I know plenty of people who sleep in until noon every day and still fail classes. Maybe it's a classic "correlation vs causation" situation.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Aetius » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:46 am UTC

I'd always heard that the optimal environment had a 70/30 success/fail split. I have no idea where that figure came from, but seems like its where it should be.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby mmmcannibalism » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:32 am UTC

But, that's just me. I knew plenty of folks who did perfectly well with the fours hours of sleep. However, now, in college, I know plenty of people who sleep in until noon every day and still fail classes. Maybe it's a classic "correlation vs causation" situation
.

I think its going to work differently at college, because sleeping in at noon may be a sign of laziness instead of need for sleep.

I do agree shifting school a little later in the day is a good idea. I imagine just about everyone agrees kids getting more sleep is a good idea(does anyone disagree?). The one concern I could see is that kids will just stay up later, but I doubt kids will stay up till 1:30 instead of 1 just because school is half an hour later.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby MrGee » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:15 am UTC

My school started at 7:10 mostly due to budget pressure. My sleep schedule was 1am-6am. My friday night was a nap.

So yeah, fuck high school scheduling.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby EmptySet » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:23 am UTC

JBJ wrote:
EmptySet wrote:Anyway, I agree that constantly telling someone how good they are isn't the best parenting. Back in my day, we got told the we would fail at some things, and when we did we had to try, try, and try again until we got it right. And we had to walk fifty miles through the snow before each attempt.

Snow? You were lucky! We had to walk 2,000 miles through a forest of cacti under the blazing sun in the dead of night with muggers and robbers at every turn. We had to be a school at 4:15am, and if we were a minute late the schoolmaster would lash us with a cat-o-nine tails. We had but one pencil to share between the lot of us and one piece of paper to write our essays on. But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.


You had a pencil? We were too poor to afford a pencil. I had to cut my arm with a rusty nail and write in my own blood, and I got marked down for not using blue ink.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:28 pm UTC

EmptySet wrote:
JBJ wrote:
EmptySet wrote:Anyway, I agree that constantly telling someone how good they are isn't the best parenting. Back in my day, we got told the we would fail at some things, and when we did we had to try, try, and try again until we got it right. And we had to walk fifty miles through the snow before each attempt.

Snow? You were lucky! We had to walk 2,000 miles through a forest of cacti under the blazing sun in the dead of night with muggers and robbers at every turn. We had to be a school at 4:15am, and if we were a minute late the schoolmaster would lash us with a cat-o-nine tails. We had but one pencil to share between the lot of us and one piece of paper to write our essays on. But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.


You had a pencil? We were too poor to afford a pencil. I had to cut my arm with a rusty nail and write in my own blood, and I got marked down for not using blue ink.

It's pretty decadent if you can abuse nails like that. My grandmother taught me to carefully remove the rust and bend the nail back, to be used again. The rust particles we saved for the winter season when spinach was too expensive and we still needed iron in our diet.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Amnesiasoft » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:41 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The rust particles we saved for the winter season when spinach was too expensive and we still needed iron in our diet.

You had a winter season? Back in my day we had to make a thermal pump using household materials and power it via hand-crank! And we didn't even have household materials!

In hindsight, that probably made winters more bearable...

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Zamfir » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:46 pm UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:You had a winter season?

Winter wasn't a season in your place?

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Vaniver » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:05 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Amnesiasoft wrote:You had a winter season?

Winter wasn't a season in your place?
No, winter was every day. Kids have it so much easier now that fimbulvetr is over!

(Alternatively, now that the Witch Witch has been deposed.)
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Kizyr » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

wst wrote:7.25... damn. That doesn't even follow '9-to-5' like the typical job...

Continuing on this... My high school started at 7:00am. Many people who had to bus in had hour+ rides, so there were some folks who started their day at 5:00am just to have enough time to get ready and catch the bus. My freshman to junior years I got used to going to bed at 1-2am, getting up at 6am, and catching the bus by 6:30. My senior year, I just came in fifteen minutes late every day.

On sleep... I get rather irritated whenever I hear a one-sleep-fits-all mandate. Folks need as much sleep as they need; it's not a strict 8 hours for everyone. I do need more sleep (I currently get about 5 hours a night), but 6-7 hours a night does me fine; 8 hours or more and I feel lousy.

On the original article... Overall there were some unsubstantiated claims, but the one good bit of advice was:
But children excessively praised for their intelligence become risk averse in order to preserve their reputations. Instead, Bronson and Merryman say, praise effort ("I like how you keep trying"): It is a variable children can control.

Praise is still a good thing on balance, but praise and encourage things that are within the kids' control. That to me seems like common sense.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby MrGee » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:28 pm UTC

I think the main flaw with the self-esteem theory is the conflation of praise and encouragement. It's possible to support somebody without pretending that they've already accomplished something amazing.

I.e., "You're doing so well!" vs "You can do better"

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Woofsie » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:09 am UTC

7am? What the hell? The earliest I've ever heard of a school starting here is 8:45. Are early starts the norm in the US, and what about elementary/middle school?

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby ddotkram » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:47 pm UTC

Woofsie wrote:7am? What the hell? The earliest I've ever heard of a school starting here is 8:45. Are early starts the norm in the US, and what about elementary/middle school?


Yeah, in the US I have rarely heard a time later 8. Some places start at 8:30 at the latest.
The keep the elementary/middle at the same time as High Schoolers, sometimes varying up an hours (so, if HS is 7:30, ES would be 8:30) where I am from. Which is quite odd because ES students are far more active in the morning than teenagers and learn much easier at those hours than HS students but "we want the High School students home when the Elementary students get there in the afternoon."
Which means they suffer academically so they have an older sibling at home.

We've known for quite a while that students learn much easier later in the day (see Europe) but we have this mindset:
Atlas wrote:I also don't agree with him saying that school begins too early. For the rest of their life they will have to get up at 5:30 or 6:00 might as well get used to it.

Atlas wrote:I don't think the majority of kids stay up that late so it should work out. Sleep is more of a routine and not a biolgical clock, we need a certain amount everynight kids more so than adults, but there is no reason they can't go to bed at 10:00 and get up at 6:00


/sigh

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Kizyr » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:29 pm UTC

ddotkram wrote:
Woofsie wrote:7am? What the hell? The earliest I've ever heard of a school starting here is 8:45. Are early starts the norm in the US, and what about elementary/middle school?

Yeah, in the US I have rarely heard a time later 8. Some places start at 8:30 at the latest.
The keep the elementary/middle at the same time as High Schoolers, sometimes varying up an hours (so, if HS is 7:30, ES would be 8:30) where I am from.

Continuing on from this, it depends on the district (county-level or metro-level, usually), and private schools set up their own rules of course. Much of it depends on bus schedules, also: the same buses are used for transporting each level of schools, so staggering them allows you to save money on the number of buses.

While growing up in Nashville-Davidson County, the starts for public schools were:
Elementary (K-4) - 9:00am - 3:30pm (I think)
Middle (5-6) - 8:30am - 3:00pm (I think)
Junior High (7-8) - 8:00am - 2:30pm (I think)
High (9-12) - 7:00am - 2:00pm
Since then, they've modified the start schedules so that high school starts a bit later (7:30am I think is the current time).

Back to the original subject!
A lot of high schools in the area started changing the ranking system so that multiple people could be valedictorian/salutatorian. So, some schools' classes had, like, 14 valedictorians and 20-odd salutatorians (my school still had 1 and 1). My suspicion was always that this had to do with trying not to have anyone feel like they're #2, sort of a false encouragement kind of thing. Anyone else from school districts where that started to become common practice? KF
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby mmmcannibalism » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:27 am UTC

Back to the original subject!
A lot of high schools in the area started changing the ranking system so that multiple people could be valedictorian/salutatorian. So, some schools' classes had, like, 14 valedictorians and 20-odd salutatorians (my school still had 1 and 1). My suspicion was always that this had to do with trying not to have anyone feel like they're #2, sort of a false encouragement kind of thing. Anyone else from school districts where that started to become common practice? KF


I think my school has the right policy here; top 1%(which is 3 people) are recognized and give speeches, and the top 5% are seated at the front and graduate first in order(I believe). Personally, it seems that trying to award every smart kid in the school with the same medal will make them think nothing of it.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:01 pm UTC

The actual reason for starting high school so early in the United States is to leave sunlight time in the afternoon for high-school sports practice.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Mokele » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:31 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:The actual reason for starting high school so early in the United States is to leave sunlight time in the afternoon for high-school sports practice.


Sadly, that's actually the most plausible explanation so far.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:30 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:The actual reason for starting high school so early in the United States is to leave sunlight time in the afternoon for high-school sports band practice.

Fix'd (at least for my HS - our sports were the sux during MB season)
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Jesse » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:40 am UTC

What kids are staying up until 1am? When I was in primary school I was in bed before nine every night, and high school was in bed well before midnight. It's only in college that I started my 'stay up until 4am' shtick.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Woopate » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:05 pm UTC

I think you're an exception in that case. From grade 8 on I got to bed at 1-1:30. Granted, my schools all started around 9 AM (Canada). Frankly, a 7:20 start time for school seems ridiculous. Maybe more acceptable if they put thinking-soft classes in the morning.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby zombie_monkey » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:18 pm UTC

It's 7:00-7:30 in Bulgaria too.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby The Reaper » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:52 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:What kids are staying up until 1am? When I was in primary school I was in bed before nine every night, and high school was in bed well before midnight. It's only in college that I started my 'stay up until 4am' shtick.

Halfway through highschool I started staying up till midnight and later, but prior to that, mandated bedtime, lights out, no electronics, was 10pm. Wake up at 6:10 to 6:30ish, then school by 7:30 for band practice, since that was my first class.

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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby Cynical Idealist » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:41 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:What kids are staying up until 1am? When I was in primary school I was in bed before nine every night, and high school was in bed well before midnight. It's only in college that I started my 'stay up until 4am' shtick.

Oh, I was in bed by 8-10 each night (got later as I grew older). And that meant no lights or electronics, either.

Doesn't mean I ever got to sleep at any sane hour. Sleep disorders are awesome like that. But hey, clearly it's just a *routine* I developed, because I absolutely loved staring at the ceiling for hours on end.
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Re: Self-Esteem = Success? Destruction?

Postby KestrelLowing » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:18 pm UTC

mmmcannibalism wrote:
I do agree shifting school a little later in the day is a good idea. I imagine just about everyone agrees kids getting more sleep is a good idea(does anyone disagree?). The one concern I could see is that kids will just stay up later, but I doubt kids will stay up till 1:30 instead of 1 just because school is half an hour later.


I tried and tried to find one study that I had read, but was unable to find in on the interwebs. There was a school district in Texas I think that pushed back the high school start time from 7:30 or so to 9:30. For the first 3 years, they did much, much better on just about everything.

After a few years, however, the students just started staying up later, so there was no point to push the start time back.


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