Moderatores Populusque XKCDi [Latin]

[Makri]

I don't want to hear arguments over the pnounciations of 'V' and 'C' and 'Æ' and the like. No-one can prove it, just pronounce it however you want and leave it at that.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I just have to contradict this. You can prove both the velar stop and the diphthong for the classical period, unless you don't accept loans into Germanic as proof.

The case in point is that caesar was borrowed into Old High German as kaisar. Had there been a monophthong, it would have been kiasar and we'd say Kieser instead of Kaiser in New High German.

Now if that's not a proof, nothing is for the purposes of historical linguistics...

There may be similar arguments for other pronunciation questions, but those I don't know.

[olubunmi]

I don't want to hear arguments over the pnounciations of 'V' and 'C' and 'Æ' and the like. No-one can prove it, just pronounce it however you want and leave it at that.

Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but I just have to contradict this. You can prove both the velar stop and the diphthong for the classical period, unless you don't accept loans into Germanic as proof.

The case in point is that caesar was borrowed into Old High German as kaisar. Had there been a monophthong, it would have been kiasar and we'd say Kieser instead of Kaiser in New High German.

Now if that's not a proof, nothing is for the purposes of historical linguistics...

There may be similar arguments for other pronunciation questions, but those I don't know.

This is what I've been told numerous times. 'Kaisar' is the most commonly used example, but I've seen others too.

What I don't understand is why the alleged pronunciation of latin is much more similar to modern German than to most Romanic languages.
I always think of Latin is an early form of Italian, and than it'd be pronounced quite differently from what I learn in class.
In Germanic languages there are many words with latin roots, but Romanic languages are much more similar to Latin, so it would make sense if it was the same for pronunciation.
Is this because the alleged pronunciation is more similar to church latin? But where did that come from then?
Can someone explain this to me more clearly, because my latin teacher doesn't have an answer other than 'it's just the way it is'.

[Makri]

It's pretty difficult to reconstruct your intuition in terms that make sense linguistically... Because this question of similarity isn't really linguistically meaningful.

A reconstructed pronunciation has to be able to explain a) the writing (unless you can explain the writing by an earlier stage of the language), b) the pronunciation in the daughter languages, and c) loans. <ae> being pronounced as a diphthong fits perfectly with the writing. In fact, it strongly suggests that at least at some time, it was a diphthong.
It also fits the daughter languages: Monophthongization of /ai/ to /ɛ:/ has happend a thousand times in the languages of the world, and seeing how the other e-vowels have developped into the romance languages, that fits fine to explain the reflexes of Latin <ae>.
Now what remains is to decide when this monophthongization took place. And here the loans come into play. The speakers of a Germanic language can't plausibly have taken the word from Latin before the classical period. As the loan can only have the shape it has (it was OHG keisar, I forgot ai > ei in OHG, sorry) if the original had the diphthong, it is clear that at that time, the pronunciation was still diphthongal.

Your intuition kind of seems to be that b) is a lot harder to explain than it really is. Phonology is what changes fastest over time. Just look at the ridiculous non-correspondence between English writing and pronunciation.

A notion of similarity doesn't enter into it...

[olubunmi]

Thanks Makri, it does make more sense now.

With these examples I always thougth it was assumed that German pronunciation was more static than pronunciation in Romanic languages. That's what I found strange...
But it's probably easier to trace back the origin of a few loan words than to study the history of the pronunciation from a whole language.
So basically this pronunciation isn't completely proven, but it just seems the most logical alternative.

[Makri]

Well, practically, it is proven, under some premises that it is extremely implausible to deny (e.g. that the speakers of Germanic didn't take the loan before the classical period).

But it's probably easier to trace back the origin of a few loan words than to study the history of the pronunciation from a whole language.

The latter has been done anyway. It is my impression that the development of Latin into the Romance languages is very well-studied.

With these examples I always thougth it was assumed that German pronunciation was more static than pronunciation in Romanic languages. That's what I found strange...

Oh, that's not really strange. Just compare Italian and French - Italian was much more static in pronunciation than French. Some languages change more in their phonology and phonetics, some less. Also, German(ic) pronunciation wasn't that static. High German Consonant Shift, anyone? Though from Old High Geman to New High German, it was mostly (no exclusively) vowels that changed.

[olubunmi]

Meh, I hardly speak German, so I'll leave it with that.
Thanks for the clarification.

olu

[Chiffre]

It is my impression that the development of Latin into the Romance languages is very well-studied.

True, but as Murphy says, it only puts more questions, so it's worth to delve into.

High German Consonant Shift, anyone?

Ah, yes. Apfel/Appel/apple...

Have some memories about Greek - Latin borrowings as proving material for diphthongs, but I'm not sure about it.

[BoFairfield]

My latin teacher from 8th-10th grade was a contributor to all of Ecce Romani, and authored ecce romani III. I'm still a latin student now, in the process of memorizing 1900 lines of Vergil for the AP exam come may.
Latin is the best. It's a very tightly knit group of students at my school who take it, as we've been together since 6th grade. linguam latinam ab imo pectore amo.
Forsan et haec olim meminisse iuvabit

[Chiffre]

memorizing 1900 lines of Vergil

Gee Willikers!
If they tell you a line you have to say the following lines?
Or you have translated the whole text and now you only read it through because translation will be the task?

[olubunmi]

memorizing 1900 lines of Vergil

Gee Willikers!
If they tell you a line you have to say the following lines?
Or you have translated the whole text and now you only read it through because translation will be the task?

I guess that he must learn the text so that he knows most words and what it's about when he only has the latin original at hand.

That's at least what I must learn for my final exams in May.
Only not with Virgil, but with parts of Cicero's pro Caelio

[Chiffre]

I guess that he must learn the text so that he knows most words and what it's about when he only has the latin original at hand.

All right, then a usual exercise for a long text.
We got a completely unknown text for graduation. Reading the text my first impressions: pius Aeneas curses the gods. Oops! Got through it, anyway.

[olubunmi]

I guess that he must learn the text so that he knows most words and what it's about when he only has the latin original at hand.

All right, then a usual exercise for a long text.
We got a completely unknown text for graduation. Reading the text my first impressions: pius Aeneas curses the gods. Oops! Got through it, anyway.

Well, for me, half of the exam will be about translating a new text too. But that's probably only about 10 lines. Given it's Cicero, that's still a lot tough...

[Chiffre]

Well, for me, half of the exam will be about translating a new text too. But that's probably only about 10 lines. Given it's Cicero, that's still a lot tough...

Knowing that it is Cicero, try to get accustomed to his style, read translations of his speeches, and make a list and short summary of the speeches he published, because knowing the background can help a lot. There are speech-specific things too, like vocative "iudices" suddenly in the middle of the text.
Is there any chance that you will get some philosophical text? That also requires background, and maybe is not suitable for an end-of-high-school exam (after 4 years * 2*45 minutes a wéek).
Or a letter? For a letter it is good to know the specifics, i.e. have some paper and try to write letters yourself in English to an acquaintance. Soon the references, the composition style and turns of speech become familiar and easy-to-handle in any language. But stick to the paper or longer, more formal e-mails! Fora are too speech-like and do not handle time the same way.

[olubunmi]

Nah, we'll most probably get a small fragment from another court case from him.
Thanks for the advice tough.
I'll try to look up some of his cases, so I know what they are about.
And once I've studied all the lines from pro Caelio, I should be pretty accustomed to his style.
We've been working on the translations since September, but I haven't started learning yet.

[Chiffre]

Nah, we'll most probably get a small fragment from another court case from him.
And once I've studied all the lines from pro Caelio, I should be pretty accustomed to his style.
We've been working on the translations since September, but I haven't started learning yet.

Oh, you are fine, you know the author, translated for a long time - it means you know the text itself, what may come?
Only an infinitivus instans passivi (rare but he likes it), or handling of time clauses (consistent only at Cicero & Caesar, other auctores handle it more flexibly), or whatever speciality is liked in your piece of universe. For "educational" purposes, of course.
What parts of pro Caelio? I'm kinda curious and nostalgic too.

[olubunmi]

Let's see. We had to translate parts all throughout the story, and we were given the rest in translation, or only a summary for the longest gaps.

These are the paragraphs we had to translate: 1-2, 10-15, 30-37, 39, 43, 48-51, 56-58, 61-66, 69-70, 77-78.
So that's slightly less than half. But still a considerable amount for a final year at high school.

Anyways, here's the whole text.

[Chiffre]

But still a considerable amount for a final year at high school.

I agree.
As a text source I prefer Perseus Project. The texts are checked for typos* , and it has a critical apparatus too. Has built-in dictionaries, but shows only a small amount of text on one page.
But if you are confined to TLL's text, it is more wise for me to use the same.

*unfortunately it is not true @ The Latin Library, though they began to correct that huge amount of text they already have online

So, what about the first two chapters? Can we look into them next Monday? Or rather not?

[kyraineth]

We just had Latin Day at UVM on the ninth, and I am absurdly pleased that I helped my school get a red ribbon for the Junior Probatio.
I hope I spelled that right.

For my birthday, I got a Latin-English dictionary. From one of my best friends. I had asked for one specifically.

She told me in my card what a dork I am. (Bah, whatever, Miss "I take French")

[Monika]

We just had Latin Day at UVM on the ninth, and I am absurdly pleased that I helped my school get a red ribbon for the Junior Probatio.
I hope I spelled that right.

Quid "UVM" significat?

For my birthday, I got a Latin-English dictionary. From one of my best friends. I had asked for one specifically.
She told me in my card what a dork I am. (Bah, whatever, Miss "I take French")

Poor she does not know the pleasures of linguistics .

Making witty post signatures is a hard thing to do. Therefore, I will instead put this signature-making reference as my signature, and maybe one day someone will change this and put it on a t-shirt. If they love me enough.

Cute sig

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

cui bono, latinae discundum?

prima luce, mittit (mihi) et tulit me sursum, ubi quievit deus in tabernaculum in litore maris. inveni eum in cellae altus eius, seditus, dorsi eius fenestrae, dum fregerunt fluctas marem grandis Syriae contra caput eius.

inquam ei, "benedictum Ammonis!"

inquit mihi, "quam diu huic diei invenisti loco ubi est Ammonem?"

inquam ei, "menses totus quinque."

inquit mihi, "Si verus es, ubi tabulam qui sit in manum tuum est? ubi epistolam sacerdotis altus Ammonis qui sit in manum tuum est?"

inquam ei, "is Smendesi et Tentamunae do."

tum iratissimus erat et inquit mihi, "itaque, tabula epistolaque non habuisti. ubi navem ligni piceae qui dedit Smendes est?ubi nautae Syriae eius est? num mandit te huic gubernatori barbaro ut effecerit is tuum interficere ut effeceritque eos tuum iacere in marem? cui postea petitus deus est? Et cui postea petitus tu est?"

Sic dixit mihi.

inquam ei, "nonne navem Aegipti est? ei qui navigant sub Smendesem nautae Aegipti sunt. Non habuit nautae Syriae."

inquit mihi, "num naves viginti in portum mei qui negotium faciunt Smendesi? de Sidone, locus ille alius qui praetergredius es, num naves quinquaginta alia qui negotium faciunt Werekteri et domus eum trahunt?"

tacui in hic momentum magnum.
de Wenamunum fabula

( Any and all corrections gratefully accepted. )

[EvilDuckie]

Pardon me for the thread necro, but this seemed the best place to put it.

I've been thinking about doing a fake 15th/16th century map as a fun side-project. I want it to look like the real thing, so that means dragons, serpents, Prester John and other mythical creatures/persons. In addition to that, I'll need some Latin texts to go with it. I kinda figured that "Hic sunt dracones" is (clunky?) Latin for "Here be dragons". Given my avatar, I of course want fearsome evil ducks on my map, so with that in mind, I toyed a bit with Google Translate and it led me to believe that "Hic sunt males anates" is (once again probably clunky) Latin for "Here be evil ducks". Is that correct? If not, what should I be using instead?

[cntrational]

A question for the Latin speakers: from what I hear, in Latin speech, vowels at the end of words followed by m's were pronounced like nasal vowels, not like [<Vowel>m], and word-end vowels were dropped if the next word began with a vowel. Do you do these in your spoken Latin or do you prefer not to?

[Chiffre]

Pardon me for the thread necro, but this seemed the best place to put it.

I've been thinking about doing a fake 15th/16th century map as a fun side-project. I want it to look like the real thing, so that means dragons, serpents, Prester John and other mythical creatures/persons. In addition to that, I'll need some Latin texts to go with it. I kinda figured that "Hic sunt dracones" is (clunky?) Latin for "Here be dragons". Given my avatar, I of course want fearsome evil ducks on my map, so with that in mind, I toyed a bit with Google Translate and it led me to believe that "Hic sunt males anates" is (once again probably clunky) Latin for "Here be evil ducks". Is that correct? If not, what should I be using instead?

We are necroing the whole language since around the 6th C.
"Hic sunt dracones" is (clunky?) Latin -- It's legitimate medieval Latin.
"Here be evil ducks". Hic sunt ferae anates. -- if they charge like in the Hitchcock film.
Hic sunt malae anates. - if they are not tasteful.
Hic sunt malignae anates. - if they make tricky traps.

Spoiler:

Note the ae at the end of every adjective. This happens when our noun (subject) is feminine in the plural, and our adjective is the most common three-ended one.

m

I think the common way is to pronounce the whole word anyway, except in verses, because of prosody. The reason for this is that endings comprise a good deal of information that is always good to have.

Spoiler:

There are few people in Earth who can understand spoken Latin without proper endings. Especially in conversation. People normally use one or two voice patterns, e.g. restituted (k everywhere, ai, ... in Germany and professional circles), italian style (gi, che, ... mostly by Italians, English users, choirs), Erasmian ([ts] / k, ae,... very rare). If, on top of this, we let slip some of the last sounds, two people won't be able to understand each other in the same language.

[Monika]

We are necroing the whole language since around the 6th C.

People normally use one or two voice patterns, e.g. restituted (k everywhere, ai, ... in Germany and professional circles), italian style (gi, che, ... mostly by Italians, English users, choirs), Erasmian ([ts] / k, ae,... very rare).

I had been wondering. When we had to choose between French and Latin in 7th grade, I took French, but the Latin students told us about how the teacher tried to force them even to say kesar and kikero. Most were more lenient and allowed these two exceptions. Then I had some native English speaker say something in Latin ... and it was completely different.

[Chiffre]

I had been wondering. When we had to choose between French and Latin in 7th grade, I took French, but the Latin students told us about how the teacher tried to force them even to say kesar and kikero. Most were more lenient and allowed these two exceptions. Then I had some native English speaker say something in Latin ... and it was completely different.

Yes, native English people, especially in law and medicine, speak Latin according to English pronounciation patterns. Moreover, latinists do this too when there are only words from Latin in the sentence. E.g. talking about ancient authors, the authors' name is pronounced in the English way, then within a Latin sentence or excerpt, they switch to the restituted pronounciation and highly skilled declamation.
And yes, the names we know from "normal" history and literature lessons, are almost ingraved in our "home pronounciation", while the other names, we meet only in Latin lesson, are readily accepted in their restituted form (if that is teached).

[The Milkman]

Hello everyone.

I'm in my third year of Latin right now and it's a great language to have learned. Translating is a blast for the most part and after that's over, it's just like an English class, with all of its critical thinking.

I'm probably gonna keep taking it up in college, even though my preferred major has nothing to do with it.

So, what do we do in here exactly?

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Pardon me for the thread necro, but this seemed the best place to put it.

I've been thinking about doing a fake 15th/16th century map as a fun side-project. I want it to look like the real thing, so that means dragons, serpents, Prester John and other mythical creatures/persons. In addition to that, I'll need some Latin texts to go with it. I kinda figured that "Hic sunt dracones" is (clunky?) Latin for "Here be dragons". Given my avatar, I of course want fearsome evil ducks on my map, so with that in mind, I toyed a bit with Google Translate and it led me to believe that "Hic sunt males anates" is (once again probably clunky) Latin for "Here be evil ducks". Is that correct? If not, what should I be using instead?

I would have thought the 16th Century was a bit late for Prester John and dragons, really... Also, if it's 16th Century, you really want good, classical Latin, surely? What with the humanist 'restoration' of Latin, and so on. In which case, "hic dracones habitant" would probably be better.

[EvilDuckie]

I would have thought the 16th Century was a bit late for Prester John and dragons, really... Also, if it's 16th Century, you really want good, classical Latin, surely? What with the humanist 'restoration' of Latin, and so on. In which case, "hic dracones habitant" would probably be better.

Thanks! Actually, I'm not intending this to be a 100% truthful reproduction of an old map, so clunky Latin is no big problem for me (then again, since I don't know any Latin, I wouldn't be able to spot the difference myself).

As for Prester John, it wasn't until the early 17th century that the myth really started to die out. Dragons and other mythical creatures were being used until at least the mid-16th century. Apparently the ~1510 Lenox Globe was the only one actually using "HC SVNT DRACONES" (but... we all know ancient cartographers used that, just like everybody in that period knew that dragons really existed in foreign lands).

[Gigano]

Cur non cum lingua Latina loquimini? Enim credo nonne optimum discendis modum esse.

[Aiwendil]

Enim credo nonne optimum discendis modum esse.

Ita vero. In lingua Latina dicenda (vel scribenda) valde gaudeo. Sed occasionem non saepe habeo.

[Gigano]

Ita vero. In lingua Latina dicenda (vel scribenda) valde gaudeo. Sed occasionem non saepe habeo.

Ergo facere temporem debes!

[Aiwendil]

Ergo facere temporem debes!

Quidem conor quotidie paulum in lingua Latina scribere, cum non iam in schola studeam.

Video te Groningen habitare. Frisiamne linguam dicis? Paululum eam studeo quoque.

[Gigano]

Quidem conor quotidie paulum in lingua Latina scribere, cum non iam in schola studeam.

Oppido bene! Conatum discendis tuum admiror atque te cito linguam in modo velut Romanes cum ea loqui discere spero.

Video te Groningen habitare. Frisiamne linguam dicis? Paululum eam studeo quoque.

Enim vero. Groningen habito sed non linguam Frisiam dico. Linguarum Nederlandiae solam linguam Batavam.

[Aiwendil]

Oppido bene! Conatum discendis tuum admiror atque te cito linguam in modo velut Romanes cum ea loqui discere spero.

Heu, longum tempus futurum esse antequam velut Romanes loqui discam credo. Etiam si aliquantum bene scribere possum, tardissime scribo et saepe necesse est ut glossarium et librum grammaticum consultem.

Latinam in schola studesne? Eam duos annos in schola secundaria et tres semestres in univiersitate studui.

[Gigano]

Heu, longum tempus futurum esse antequam velut Romanes loqui discam credo. Etiam si aliquantum bene scribere possum, tardissime scribo et saepe necesse est ut glossarium et librum grammaticum consultem.

Noli timere: et mihi interdum necesse glossarium et librum grammaticum consultare est. Tamen sententiae meae non sunt opptimae.

Latinam in schola studesne? Eam duos annos in schola secundaria et tres semestres in univiersitate studui.

Linguam quinque annos in schola studui, sed ex longo eam non uti quod nunc iam tres annos studeo biologiam in universitate. Autem multi verbi in illa doctrina sunt iuncti cum lingua Latina aut Graeca. Inde sudorem non habeo si in Latina scribam.

[Aiwendil]

Linguam quinque annos in schola studui, sed ex longo eam non uti quod nunc iam tres annos studeo biologiam in universitate.

Quidem, ego physicam studui in universitate, quare non saepe otium ad studendam linguam Latinam habui. Sed nunc (abhinc circa annum) curo nonnullum mei temporis liberi Latinae discribere. Vero, tardissime et paulatim, scriptos Silmarillii ab Tolkien in Latinam converto, quod opus difficile est sed laetum.

[Gigano]

Quidem, ego physicam studui in universitate, quare non saepe otium ad studendam linguam Latinam habui. Sed nunc (abhinc circa annum) curo nonnullum mei temporis liberi Latinae discribere. Vero, tardissime et paulatim, scriptos Silmarillii ab Tolkien in Latinam converto, quod opus difficile est sed laetum.

Commissum illud tibi nonne maior est? Censeo id operam gravem esse. Nihilo setius opto ut gaudium ad transferre habeas.

[Aiwendil]

Commissum illud tibi nonne maior est? Censeo id operam gravem esse. Nihilo setius opto ut gaudium ad transferre habeas.

Sic ita, id est commissum gravis. Sed scripturas ab Tolkien valde diligo faveoque, et linguam Latinam exercere volo; aptus igitur est hic conatus.

Atque duos libros in lingua Latina emi de Harrio Pottere, quos legere possum facilius quam multos libros Romanorum, quia prius eos in lingua Anglica legi.

(If anyone's interested, my attempts at translating Tolkien into Latin can be found here.)

[Maralais]

Salutem dico!

...And I don't think I could create meaningful sentences other than that. Unfortunately in my school Latin is taught as a stack of grammatical rules, and our teacher constantly reminds us how Latin is a dead language, while I want to actually improve my Latin to a decent level and actually try to read(and perhaps write) philosophical books and literature. So I tried reading some of the online courses I could find, and the one in the National Archives UK seems like a good one to start, and it's quite exciting to translate actual documents, yet it seems to teach Medieval Latin, which is apparently different from Classical Latin(the first difference I spotted was the way second declension is done, I was taught to use ae while the National Archives tell me it's just e), so should I seek different courses? Or would Medieval Latin still be useful for me?