Star Wars: The Old Republic

[nowfocus]

I'm very, very excited about this game. I know MMO get overhyped, but Bioware

Star Wars: The Old Republic is a new MMO being developed by Bioware. Set 300 years after the Knights of the Old Republic games, and 3,500 years before the movies, the plot revolves around a war between the sith empire and the republic. The game will feature full voice acting for each character, and the dialogue choices the player makes have a significant impact on the plot. Each of the games 8 classes have a unique story to follow through, and will be joined by NPC companions. It seems like they are trying to take a KOTOR game, expand the content, and make into an MMO.

Republic Classes: Smuggler, Trooper, Jedi Knight, Jedi Consular
Sith Classes: Bounty Hunter, Imperial Agent, Sith Warrior, Sith Inquisitor
Each class will have two primary trees, and seem to have sub trees as well.

Some of the class mechanics are fairly unique: there will be a cover system in place for the smuggler and the imperial agent, the bounty hunter can rocket off the ground, and the Sith Inquisitor may be able to spec into a melee caster.
Some links:
Official Trailer
Info on each of the classes
Gameplay footage
Background on the story
Webcomic
New Info:
Combat Diary

[Endless Mike]

I'm vaguely optimistic due to the Bioware connection, but at the same time I don't really enjoy MMOs, so I don't know how that will balance out for me.

I also don't understand why bounty hunter or smuggler would affiliation-specific classes. Hell, it would make MORE sense for them to be switched since a smuggler, by definition, is doing something illegal, which the Republic wouldn't approve of, while a bounty hunter can very easily be a legimate businessperson working within the specific laws of the land (or space, such as it is).

[Allium Cepa]

I also don't understand why bounty hunter or smuggler would affiliation-specific classes. Hell, it would make MORE sense for them to be switched since a smuggler, by definition, is doing something illegal, which the Republic wouldn't approve of, while a bounty hunter can very easily be a legimate businessperson working within the specific laws of the land (or space, such as it is).

Because Han Solo was a smuggler, obviously.

This game looks pretty cool, I've been excited about it for a while, I hope it lives up to my expectations. 8 classes seems a little low, and the OP said something about each class has its own story line? I don't really like the way that sounds. I also wonder how many people would choose the classes that aren't force classes, Imperial Agent looked cool to me, but I also want a lightsaber, so it's hard to decide.

[nowfocus]

I also don't understand why bounty hunter or smuggler would affiliation-specific classes

They explain it somewhat in the backstory. The mandalorians sided with the sith, and the bounty hunters in the game are partaking in a mandalorian competition called 'The Great Hunt'. The webcomic also showed that a bounty hunter brutally betrays the republic, so they wouldn't be keen to hire any more.

The smugglers collectively value freedom, which they had more of under the republic, and being captured by the sith wouldn't be pleasant. Further, the sith have taken over key supply lines of the republic, so the republic has far more work to offer a smuggler.

8 classes seems a little low, and the OP said something about each class has its own story line? I don't really like the way that sounds. I also wonder how many people would choose the classes that aren't force classes, Imperial Agent looked cool to me, but I also want a lightsaber, so it's hard to decide.

WoW only launched with 9 classes, and there is apparently a large amount of variety in a class so I think it will be okay. Each class does have its own story line, but that takes place in the broader story line of your faction. Of the non-force using classes, I think the bounty hunter will be popular because of Boba Fett, the smuggler/imperial agent will appeal to the rogue characters (they can spec to have stealth), and Troopers are basically Master Chief. I think there will be some imbalance, but I really don't know which way it will go.

[Chen]

Bioware doesn't usually rush games out so perhaps this MMO will actually stand a chance versus WoW. I like the concept, but I fail to see how a smuggler would be on the same power level as a Jedi Knight. Thats one of the issues I had with these Star Wars games. Either the Jedi are OP and everyone is one, or they have to be dumbed down so that the other classes are comparable.

[Ixtellor]

Bioware doesn't usually rush games out so perhaps this MMO will actually stand a chance versus WoW. I like the concept, but I fail to see how a smuggler would be on the same power level as a Jedi Knight. Thats one of the issues I had with these Star Wars games. Either the Jedi are OP and everyone is one, or they have to be dumbed down so that the other classes are comparable.

In my ideal world, Jedi and Sith would be Heroic classes only available after you complete X.

It reminds me of my old Mud, where Illithids were BRUTAL to level, and only the best of the best could/would be willing to do it, but they were Powerful as hell.

It caused balance issues for while, but they generally worked out well.

I would be totally ok with Jedi bascially only available to power gamers, and people willing to put in a lot of work over a long time. They should be made to be special.

[Shivahn]

Bioware doesn't usually rush games out so perhaps this MMO will actually stand a chance versus WoW. I like the concept, but I fail to see how a smuggler would be on the same power level as a Jedi Knight. Thats one of the issues I had with these Star Wars games. Either the Jedi are OP and everyone is one, or they have to be dumbed down so that the other classes are comparable.

Well, in the original trilogy, the Jedi weren't super powerful. I mean, they were, but it's not like any of them actually performed super feats, taking on fifty people at once, etcetera. They were definitely above average, but not at demi-god status.

Actually, the real reason I'm posting is because I want to point out that EA owns Bioware now, so I'm not optimistic that the game won't be rushed.

[nowfocus]

Well, in the original trilogy, the Jedi weren't super powerful. I mean, they were, but it's not like any of them actually performed super feats, taking on fifty people at once, etcetera. They were definitely above average, but not at demi-god status.

Right, and we were watching the most powerful jedi. In attack of the clones, Jedi were being killed my large amounts of blaster fire. Bobba Fett in Return of the Jedi disables Luke easily.

Many Jedi on the council were killed by storm troopers in episode 3 when taken by surprise. So I think you can have balance without Jedi being uber. Hell, bounty hunters have the nickname 'Jedi-Killers' in the books.

[The Utilitarian]

Frankly I'm a little disaponted to see how similar some of the opposing faction classes are to eachother. While I'm sure the details are different, it really seems like both factions have [lightsaber melee focused class] [force combat focused class] [heavy blaster rifle focused class] and [light blaster pistol focused class]

In the videos and info I've watched so far I'm just not seeing enough difference between the empire and republic options.

[Furburt]

Well, I love Bioware more than any other developer, and they've never really made a game that was less than stellar, so I have high hopes for this one.

I've purposely been distancing myself from it though, so I don't overhype myself or spoil it. If the reviews turn out to be good, me and a friend will both be getting it and playing through it together. It will be my first proper MMO, all others I stopped playing after a few weeks.

[Endless Mike]

Well, I love Bioware more than any other developer, and they've never really made a game that was less than stellar, so I have high hopes for this one.

Heh. Go play Sonic Chronicles and come back and say that.

[samureyed]

I've been looking forward to this for a long time, but we still have a year to go... release set for spring 2011

[Decker]

Well, I love Bioware more than any other developer, and they've never really made a game that was less than stellar, so I have high hopes for this one.

Heh. Go play Sonic Chronicles and come back and say that.

I'm pretty sure that it's against the law to make a good Sonic game now-a-days.

[Kingrames]

I just don't know.
Star Wars Online was amazing before holocrons and Jedi, but...

I just can't get into star wars anymore. Ever since I realized how sexist the entire series is, it just sucked all the awesome out of it.

That team is amazing but if Lucas touched the game at all it's tainted.

My apologies if I've ruined it for anyone else.

[Shivahn]

Well, the series is written for archetypes, which tend to be sexist.

I find it weird that you'd not be able to get into a game because its origins are sexist, though. I'd think it'd be better to judge each entry separately.

[Kingrames]

Well, the series is written for archetypes, which tend to be sexist.

I find it weird that you'd not be able to get into a game because its origins are sexist, though. I'd think it'd be better to judge each entry separately.

I can understand if a story is a little sexist, but Lucas makes it ridiculous.
There are a whopping 3 female characters in Star wars that are not cannon fodder. 2 are related to Luke Skywalker and only add to his mary-sue nature. the other is the Exile, who was kicked out of the Jedi order and deleted from history (and at that point you should ask, "Is it because she was female? sheesh!")

The ultimate weapon of destruction, the Death Star, is modeled after a Breast. There were two of them. They both had to be destroyed.

Mara Jade was killed after she became more popular than her husband. by a child.

Leia was awesome, yet she was enslaved by the slimiest crime lord in the series.

There's more, but I mean, it's hysterical how bad it really is. It's gotten to the point where I just laugh at it. Where could Star Wars possibly go from where it is? Nostalgia is all it really has going for it.

Of course, even as I say this, I will give it a shot and would love to be pleasantly surprised.

[Vaniver]

Hm. It's hard to believe, but it's been about five years since I played an MMO (besides the WAR beta). This one looks vaguely promising- I'm intrigued by the dialogue system, as well as how they're going to do the Jedi vs. Sith combat. I'm not sure BioWare's skill at single-player games will transfer well to multiplayer ones, but we'll see.

[nowfocus]

I just can't get into star wars anymore. Ever since I realized how sexist the entire series is, it just sucked all the awesome out of it.

I haven't found the KOTOR games sexist at all. You can play as a woman, two of the three jedi's on your team are women, the head of the army is a woman, and enemy sith are women. I'm just working through the second one now, but within the first five minutes you get a strong female jedi.

The other parts I'd agree are a bit sexist, but this is a bioware game, not a lucas movie, so who cares?

[Pez Dispens3r]

The ultimate weapon of destruction, the Death Star, is modeled after a Breast. There were two of them. They both had to be destroyed.

Symbolism: it can allow you to read too far into things.

[samureyed]

"Damn did you see the deathstars on that one.." hahaha oh the possibilities.

[Decker]

"That's no moons!"

[Endless Mike]

Explain how Luke Skywalker is a mary sue.

[Pez Dispens3r]

Explain how Luke Skywalker is a mary sue.

It was explained: farmboy turns out to be related to the baddest mo-fo in the universe? And some apparently-important princess? And has secret powers that will enable him to become the most powerful Giuseppe in the galaxy? And whines about power converters? That, my friend, is the stench of self-insertion done AWESOMELY!

[Endless Mike]

Explain how Luke Skywalker is a mary sue.

It was explained: farmboy turns out to be related to the baddest mo-fo in the universe? And some apparently-important princess? And has secret powers that will enable him to become the most powerful Giuseppe in the galaxy? And whines about power converters? That, my friend, is the stench of self-insertion done AWESOMELY!

No, it's actually not at all. I mean, your first part alone "farmboy" doesn't relate to Lucas at all.

[Phen]

Explain how Luke Skywalker is a mary sue.

It was explained: farmboy turns out to be related to the baddest mo-fo in the universe? And some apparently-important princess? And has secret powers that will enable him to become the most powerful Giuseppe in the galaxy? And whines about power converters? That, my friend, is the stench of self-insertion done AWESOMELY!

No, it's actually not at all. I mean, your first part alone "farmboy" doesn't relate to Lucas at all.

Unlike power couplings!

[Endless Mike]

My point is that Luke in no way resembles Lucas in anything other than name (and even that's sketchy considering one is a first name and one is a last). Luke doesn't even offer the basic tenets of Mary Suism such as being infallible and everyone loving him. This is like claiming Neo was the Wachowskis' Mary Sue or Odysseus was Homer's.

[Enderb]

I too am totally psyched for this game, but as a WoW player, my standards for MMOs are pretty high and I'm concerned for another Warhammer/Matrix Online letdown.

I agree with the notion that only 8 classes is a little, especially since its really 4 classes, 8 choices but divided on two teams. By that notion, WoW launched with 16 classes.

I dunno, potential for lightsaber-force grip pwnage is high, but raiding/dungeoning/ other inter-play is low, at least following traditional notions of group work.

And, to paraphrase for emphasis, who is going to roll a non force using class. Or even a class without force lightening.

[Shivahn]

I agree with the notion that only 8 classes is a little, especially since its really 4 classes, 8 choices but divided on two teams. By that notion, WoW launched with 16 classes.

Not... really... since in WoW the classes were, literally, identical. There are at least passing differences between the classes in TOR. And I doubt the light side/dark side force users will having anything approximating the same skill set. Maybe the smuggler/bounty hunter will be similar, I don't know. The agent doesn't look too much like the trooper or smuggler though.

In short, it's more than four classes.

And, to paraphrase for emphasis, who is going to roll a non force using class. Or even a class without force lightening.

I...am? I have no doubt that there will be a lot of Jedi and Sith. But there are plenty of people who will play something else.

(Also, I'm pretty sure only the Sith faction is going to get lightening, so, you know. Lots of people will not use it.)

[nowfocus]

I agree with the notion that only 8 classes is a little, especially since its really 4 classes, 8 choices but divided on two teams. By that notion, WoW launched with 16 classes.

The classes that have been released are quite different. I think the relationship between Inquisitor = Consular is going to be like the relationship between warlock and mage - they are both ranged magic users, but they go about it in a very different way. The inquisitor is based on lightening abilities, and seems to have a charge/discharge mechanic, whereas the consular is based on telekinesis, so lots of pulls and pushes on the battle field. Similar arguments can be made about the other supposed 'pairs'. At launch, WoW had no difference between the classes on either side, save for priests, and even then it was just one ability.

Further - each class seems to have a lot more specialization than WoW. The current info suggests that there will be two main trees, and then 3 sub-trees for each main tree. Take the smuggler, one of his main trees is 'scoundrel', which is stealth and melee based, while the other is dual blaster based.

And, to paraphrase for emphasis, who is going to roll a non force using class. Or even a class without force lightening.

There probably will be more force users, but the current poll on the website has it at 60/40 (force users to non-force users). A lot of people liked Bobba Fett, Han Solo, Lando, or Master Chief (not in Star Wars, but its basically the trooper).

[Vaniver]

I'm excited by the claim that you can specialize on the fly, and thus alter your skill balance to who is actually in your group, rather than altering your group to fit a skill balance. I spent most of WoW grouping with a hunter from my guild, only to see her essentially blacklisted for instances and raiding, because hunters simply were not useful. However, I am also suspicious that they'll actually pull that claim off- in one of the videos, the party of two comes up against a door they need to get through. The Bounty Hunter manages by setting explosives and blowing the door open, but the dev narrating seems to claim that getting through the door is something anyone can do- in which case, is the only difference going to be what it looks like? (The bounty hunter sets charges, the jedi/sith use lightsabers, etc.) Or are there going to be actual differences between classes (consulars/inquisitors are the best healers, so you do need one of them for tough places)?

[Enderb]

I understand why people are suspect that Sith and Jedi classes will be different, and it certainly would be interesting I'm all for it, but I can't see it practically implemented as they''re would be quite a few balance issues that would come along with it. I suspect a few base moves of the corresponding force users will be the same, i.e. force push, with a few specialty moves being dependent on alignment, lightening vs. battle meditation, which is where the disparity and unbalance would arise. I dunno, then again I'm not a designer.

I...am? I have no doubt that there will be a lot of Jedi and Sith. But there are plenty of people who will play something else.

(Also, I'm pretty sure only the Sith faction is going to get lightening, so, you know. Lots of people will not use it.)

I'm not saying NO ONE will play a non-force user I'm just suspecting an unbalance: Dwarf Hunter population vs. Night Elf Hunter population. And yes thank you for pointing out that force lightening is a dark side move. Which side uses choke? Also, you really think people will choose Jedi over Sith? I find your faith in human nature disturbing....

There probably will be more force users, but the current poll on the website has it at 60/40 (force users to non-force users). A lot of people liked Bobba Fett, Han Solo, Lando, or Master Chief (not in Star Wars, but its basically the trooper).

Interesting... can't argue with hard data.

One other thing I didn't mention before. I find the breaking up of Knight and Consular interesting and cool. I don't think there's been a SW game yet that separated out the force specialty and lightsaber speciality yet has there? I think its a good idea more potential for cool moves by making two classes that use both the force and lightsabers.

Lastly, has there been any talk of PvP?

[Shivahn]

I understand why people are suspect that Sith and Jedi classes will be different, and it certainly would be interesting I'm all for it, but I can't see it practically implemented as they''re would be quite a few balance issues that would come along with it. I suspect a few base moves of the corresponding force users will be the same, i.e. force push, with a few specialty moves being dependent on alignment, lightening vs. battle meditation, which is where the disparity and unbalance would arise. I dunno, then again I'm not a designer.

I...am? I have no doubt that there will be a lot of Jedi and Sith. But there are plenty of people who will play something else.

(Also, I'm pretty sure only the Sith faction is going to get lightening, so, you know. Lots of people will not use it.)

I'm not saying NO ONE will play a non-force user I'm just suspecting an unbalance: Dwarf Hunter population vs. Night Elf Hunter population. And yes thank you for pointing out that force lightening is a dark side move. Which side uses choke? Also, you really think people will choose Jedi over Sith? I find your faith in human nature disturbing....

Balancing can be a pain, but it can be done. Since balance is probably important to many people, I'd bet they've thought about it. And there most certainly will be people who choose Jedi over Sith. Though I'd expect that to vary heavily by server. I know in WoW some servers swing 70/30 in one direction or the other, with some servers at 50/50. People are far more varied in their tastes than you give them credit for.

[nowfocus]

A few neat things they are doing:
1. If the game notices that your killing a bunch of bad guys of a certain type, it puts you on a quest to kill X number of them. I think this shows their commitment to having the proper quests be plot-driven.
2. You get companion characters, who can travel around with you, and you can slot them into any instance. They hope this will make it easier to get groups together, as if your missing a healer you can have your companion do it.

[meloncrab]

First thing is called grinding and the second point could hinder grouping, as it did with Guild Wars.

[Shooer]

It's not hard seeing each side have the same 4 classes just under a different name. Between the two sides you have different abilities with different flavor and appearance but they do the same thing an ability the other side has.

Which isn't to say that they will probably have abilities that won't be mirrored but to say they won't is completely forgetting this is a game. It's hard to sell a game that has two factions fighting when 90% of people play one side because it's the better one.

[Chen]

It's not hard seeing each side have the same 4 classes just under a different name. Between the two sides you have different abilities with different flavor and appearance but they do the same thing an ability the other side has.

Which isn't to say that they will probably have abilities that won't be mirrored but to say they won't is completely forgetting this is a game. It's hard to sell a game that has two factions fighting when 90% of people play one side because it's the better one.

Yeah this. WoW had initially done the separate side thing with races having different abilities and shaman for the Horde and paladins for the Alliance. The shaman/paladin thing was too big a difference and there were many complaints about one side being better than the other. So they evened it out. Now its just the racial abilities that are different and even then they've been toned down some since they were first implemented. And there are STILL complaints about wild imbalances between factions. It seems quite logical that Bioware will make both sides extremely similar in mechanics, though likely quite different in thematics. Either that or there'll be a nice shitstorm when some boss fight is trivialized because of the force lightning and all the light side people have to struggle through with something else.

I guess this could also be resolved by letting light and dark side people co-operate...but that seems terribly out of place.

[nowfocus]

Yeah this. WoW had initially done the separate side thing with races having different abilities and shaman for the Horde and paladins for the Alliance. The shaman/paladin thing was too big a difference and there were many complaints about one side being better than the other. So they evened it out. Now its just the racial abilities that are different and even then they've been toned down some since they were first implemented. And there are STILL complaints about wild imbalances between factions. It seems quite logical that Bioware will make both sides extremely similar in mechanics, though likely quite different in thematics. Either that or there'll be a nice shitstorm when some boss fight is trivialized because of the force lightning and all the light side people have to struggle through with something else.

WoW was terrible at balancing back then. Anyone could see the massive imbalance between paladin and shaman, and they didn't even try for years. Either it was incompetance, or they knew the changes they were making in BC and didn't want to fuck around until then. Plenty of other games manage to have asymetric units and game balance simultaneously. I'm also pretty sure they aren't doing 'boss fights' in the traditional sense. There almost certainly won't be 25 v 1 fights. It sounds like they are going to make you manage tons of adds.

First thing is called grinding and the second point could hinder grouping, as it did with Guild Wars.

The first is actually a clever implementation of a quest that isn't worth running around to get. Sure some people will want to grind, and this means they can. But it doesn't waste the quest writers or players time for these trivialities.

I think the second will hinder grouping with randoms, but when I pop online I want to go ahead and play rather than announce LFG for 15 minutes or whatever.

[Chen]

WoW was terrible at balancing back then. Anyone could see the massive imbalance between paladin and shaman, and they didn't even try for years. Either it was incompetance, or they knew the changes they were making in BC and didn't want to fuck around until then. Plenty of other games manage to have asymetric units and game balance simultaneously. I'm also pretty sure they aren't doing 'boss fights' in the traditional sense. There almost certainly won't be 25 v 1 fights. It sounds like they are going to make you manage tons of adds.

Actually that was my point. A difference (even minor ones) are VERY hard to keep things balanced with. They're STILL making modifications to WoW every patch. Hell they had Starcraft balance patches for god knows how long (they may even still be doing that I dont know). The problem with an MMO is that once people have invested in a class they don't want to suddenly find out they're not as good as X other class. Adding asymmetry between light and dark sides in this regard is going to cause problems.

The first is actually a clever implementation of a quest that isn't worth running around to get. Sure some people will want to grind, and this means they can. But it doesn't waste the quest writers or players time for these trivialities.

I think the second will hinder grouping with randoms, but when I pop online I want to go ahead and play rather than announce LFG for 15 minutes or whatever.

As long as there is some incentive to group with other people it should be ok. If taking an NPC healer and NPC tank is BETTER than taking a random human tank and healer, there'll be some problems. Actually if taking the NPC tank and healer get your through the dungeon (or equivalent), there's going to actually need to be some artificial incentive to do it with real other people (like extra loot or more exp).

[Jupiter]

I hate online games, and this is one i gonna not even check out.

[Decker]

Well...that was pointless.