xkcd

by **Silknor** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:22 am UTC

Welcome to the latest Newbie game, Diablo II Mafia. Angels, Demons and Adventures abound!

Evil, once thought vanquished, has returned to Sanctuary. Five heroes, called to action by the devastation thrust upon their land by the three Prime Evils, have set out to conquer them once and for all. Along the way three loyal and powerful allies offer their assistance, but it will still take all their skill and strength to find victory among the ashes of their razed homeland.

Setup Overview:
This game introduces two new roles (at least to the best of my knowledge). Both were added to allow for new strategies and modes of thinking, as well as to help prevent newbie games from constantly reusing the same basic set of roles. For while it may be clear and safe to do so, as Paul Atreides would say: "That path leads ever down into stagnation." Please carefully read the descriptions of the new roles, the details are, as always for power roles, the most important part. I will of course answer any questions you may have about the setup or other rules.

Also unlike in many of the games here, I'll be revealing the role of the lynched immediately, instead of in the morning.

Adventurers and Allies (Town):
1 Discerning Undead Stygian Doll (Discerning Bomb)
1 Archangel Tyrael (Cop)
1 Akara (Spying Secretary)
5 Brave Adventurers (Vanilla Townies)

Prime Evils (Mafia)
1 Mephisto (Mafia Spying Secretary)
1 Diablo (Mafia Goon)
1 Baal (Mafia Godfather)

Role Details:
Discerning Undead Stygian Doll (Discerning Bomb): A source of great frustration to red side players everywhere, you were shown the light after seeing the corruption of the once mighty Zakarum Priests. You have sworn to only use your deathly explosions for good now. A town player that, when lynched, kills the player who cast the hammer (generally the last vote, but more accurately the vote that caused the lynch, so if it's 3 to lynch and there are 2 votes on the Bomb, the person who places the third vote is the hammer, even if before the mod ends the day, a 4th player votes for them) if and only if that player is a Prime Evil (Mafia). Will not trigger if there is only a plurality or tie in the votes(eg. due to day being ended by a certain time and thus short of a majority vote for lynch). If Night Killed, the ability does not trigger.

Archangel Tyrael (Cop): The disguises of the Prime Evils are so expertly done that only you are able to easily distinguish them from everyone else. But it is still difficult enough for you that it takes you an entire night to investigate someone. A standard sane cop. Always gets the correct result except when investigating Baal (godfather); is told Baal is town.

Akara (Spying Secretary): Your ability to translate ancient texts and runes allows you to decipher Tyrael's notes, thus gaining his knowledge. Is told the results of investigations by Tyrael (both who was investigated and the result that Tyrael got). Does not know who Tyrael is. If Tyrael is night killed, Akara still receives the result of that night's investigation.

Brave Adventurers (Vanilla Townies): You are the heroes of this story, without you, no victory over evil can be found. But you are armed only with your wits and your vote, with those you must make do. Standard Vanilla Townies.

Mephisto (Mafia Spying Secretary): At your disposal is a legion of Zakarumite priests, and they possess knowledge of the ancient sacred languages of the Gods. This allows you to spy on Tyrael, and learn what he does. Same rules as Akara, except Mafia instead of Pro-Town. Is told who Tyrael investigated and the result they got (just for clarification, the whole mafia learns this at the same time Tyrael and Akara learns the result of the investigation, as soon as the morning news post is made. So the Mafia can't discuss the result but Baal and Diablo don't need to wait till the next night to find out what they learn from Mephisto's power). Learns results even for the night in which Tyrael is night killed. Doesn't know who Tyrael is.

Diablo (Mafia Goon): Bad Diablo! No Bone Prison for you! Also you're the Lord of Terror, but yeah, not much power there. A standard Mafia Goon, except they are also PM'd what Mephisto learns from his ability.

Baal (Mafia Godfather): The Lord of Destruction himself. Your clone ability allows you to trick even might Tyrael. Appears pro-town to Tyrael (Cop). Is also PM'd what Mephisto learns from his ability.

The Standard rules:

Spoiler:

Vox Imperatoris wrote:Hello everyone!
Mafia, also known as Werewolf (to infidels, we shall not speak of them), is a game originating in real life, but adapted for a forum setting. Basically, you have a small village of innocent people, but hidden among them is a group of nasty mafiosos, whose sole goal is to have at least 50% of the population belong to their organization so that they can control the lynch-votes. Since they cannot recruit people, the only way to achieve this is bloody murder, but not more than one per night. The rest of the town uses their deductive abilities, along with some special roles, to find these infiltrators and lynch them.

Lynch Voting:
xkcd Village is a lawless place, and the only form of justice is the old-fashioned lynch mob. Every "day" (this will be explained shortly), the town chooses a member to hang with a simple majority vote. For the more peaceful towns , "no lynch" is also a valid vote. After the mob has strung up the citizen, his house will be investigated overnight (it would seem reasonable to do that before the hanging, no?) and it will be announced if the town hanged a member of the mafia or an innocent townie. There are no "takebacks", once a majority vote has been reached, even for one minute, the "day" is over and the night begins.

You must bold your vote and place it on a separate line for it to my fault if I miss it and therefore do not count it in the official tally.
Example: I think Vox Imperatoris is dirty mafia scum because he said he was the cop, then later said he was the doctor. NB: That would be really stupid, don't do something like that.

Vote: Vox Imperatoris

I changed my mind now, it's definitely RandomGuy.

Unvote: Vox Imperatoris
Vote: RandomGuy

Night—when everything else happens:
People who are not just regular townies (that will be just over half of you), have special powers that are used at night. The most important of these is that of the mafia, but there are also other roles.

The mafia confer through PMs at night only (this part requires the honor code, so please don't ruin the game) about whom they plan to kill; when they reach a unanimous decision, they will PM it to me and I will record it secretly. If you receive the role of a mafia member, you must try especially hard to blend in with the others and subtly place the blame elsewhere. Too little, and the lynch mob will eventually find you; try to take control of it on the first day, and the mob will start to wonder why the mafia hasn't killed you.

Rules:
1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread. (exception being the discussion thread, in spoilers)
2. DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE GAME OUTSIDE THIS THREAD.
3. Please stay on topic.
4. Don't lurk through the whole game; if you need to drop out, I'll keep a running tab of players who want to be replacements.
5. Conversely, don't spam the thread with low content posts; it's very annoying, especially for the lurkers, and it makes it hard to actually analyze you.
6. If you aren't part of the game, please post in a separate, forbidden to players, thread for outside analysis.
7. Once I say that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread AT ALL.
8. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information.
9. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM. Paraphrasing is fine.
10. You may not edit your posts. This is to preempt the possibility of cheating by sending messages to other people and then editing them out.

Player List:

Spoiler:

by **Silknor** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:41 am UTC

The five heroes and their allies set out in search of darkness. But the disguises of the Prime Evils were just too accurate and they quickly blended in with the larger group. It would take great dedication to root out the Prime Evils in their mist, but determination is not something a hero whose homeland has been burned to ashes lacks.

It is now Day 1. 11 players, 6 to lynch. Roles of the lynched will be revealed on death.

by **tastelikecoke** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:50 am UTC

It's a bright morning. I'm excited on what the future unfolds! (read as: F1RST P0ST!!1)

by **_infina_** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:26 am UTC

I'll start right in and say that I think Mephisto is the first Prime Evil to go after, taking away their insight into the investigations. With the discerning bomb, I don't think the Prime Evils will be doing much hammering to start with. I think the spying secretaries were a nice touch, someone who can confirm the cop, but only if Mephisto is no longer in the picture, so the Prime Evils can't do a counter-claim. If they do it right, the Prime Evils with Mephisto could cause any FTC strategy to backfire. Role-claiming D1 will backfire for all town.

But that's just what I think. Anyone else have other thoughts on this? I want to end this in three days without a mislynch.

by **tastelikecoke** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:57 am UTC

My thoughts: _infina_ is obviously Tyrael since he wears a cop hat and a gun. Anyway, off this jest.

Roleclaiming to be a bomb (and people believing) will make you unlynchable, so pro-towns shouldn't role claim as a bomb, as falseclaiming Prime Evils will probably exploit this.

by **BigNose** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:24 am UTC

_infina_ wrote:I'll start right in and say that I think Mephisto is the first Prime Evil to go after, taking away their insight into the investigations. With the discerning bomb, I don't think the Prime Evils will be doing much hammering to start with. I think the spying secretaries were a nice touch, someone who can confirm the cop, but only if Mephisto is no longer in the picture, so the Prime Evils can't do a counter-claim. If they do it right, the Prime Evils with Mephisto could cause any FTC strategy to backfire. Role-claiming D1 will backfire for all town.

But that's just what I think. Anyone else have other thoughts on this? I want to end this in three days without a mislynch.

I'm not sure that the scum getting the cop result is a great deal advantageous, they already know who they/we are, the only benefit would be if they have been copped, so they have some one they can potentially bus. Certainly, the FTC and cop-claim would be a complete downer on Town while he is around, and as we don't have a Doctor role, any claim before 2 dead scum is suicidal.
Personally, I would go after the GF, I'm not sure how, given he'll show up as Town, but exactly for that reason.

Atleast with Mephisto (or the other scum), we would get a scum report from our Cop plus mate and hopefully pick up the hints.

by **tastelikecoke** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:19 am UTC

Mephisto still has the advantage of being able to roleclaim a Tyrael, or a Akara, plus the Prime Evils know every pro-town's suspicions. Once it's night time, using Tyrael's anon investigations they can check pro-town's suspicions and know who is the one that made the investigation.

by **Lataro** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:26 pm UTC

Adventurers and Allies (Town):
1 Discerning Undead Stygian Doll (Discerning Bomb)
1 Archangel Tyrael (Cop)
1 Akara (Spying Secretary)
5 Brave Adventurers (Vanilla Townies)

Prime Evils (Mafia)
1 Mephisto (Mafia Spying Secretary)
1 Diablo (Mafia Goon)
1 Baal (Mafia Godfather)

So 8/3, a ML would put us at 6/3, and another at 4/3. That means we can mess up twice before we hit LYLO. With no doctor, mafia kills are guaranteed to go though without any problems, and as we have no vig of our own, there is still the positive side that a overeager vig can't ruin the game by killing a town on accident.

Role Details:
Discerning Undead Stygian Doll (Discerning Bomb): A source of great frustration to red side players everywhere, you were shown the light after seeing the corruption of the once mighty Zakarum Priests. You have sworn to only use your deathly explosions for good now. A town player that, when lynched, kills the player who cast the hammer (generally the last vote, but more accurately the vote that caused the lynch, so if it's 3 to lynch and there are 2 votes on the Bomb, the person who places the third vote is the hammer, even if before the mod ends the day, a 4th player votes for them) if and only if that player is a Prime Evil (Mafia). Will not trigger if there is only a plurality or tie in the votes(eg. due to day being ended by a certain time and thus short of a majority vote for lynch). If Night Killed, the ability does not trigger.

I don't know how this jesterbomb is going to work out. The fact that he won't kill town is interesting, I just foresee scum not hammering votes on town for the duration of the game til this guy is dead.

Archangel Tyrael (Cop): The disguises of the Prime Evils are so expertly done that only you are able to easily distinguish them from everyone else. But it is still difficult enough for you that it takes you an entire night to investigate someone. A standard sane cop. Always gets the correct result except when investigating Baal (godfather); is told Baal is town.

Standard cop.

Akara (Spying Secretary): Your ability to translate ancient texts and runes allows you to decipher Tyrael's notes, thus gaining his knowledge. Is told the results of investigations by Tyrael (both who was investigated and the result that Tyrael got). Does not know who Tyrael is. If Tyrael is night killed, Akara still receives the result of that night's investigation.

What this role screams out to me is that if Tyrael hits scum, YOU roleclaim and get that person lynched. Tyrael should NOT be roleclaiming as long as Akara is around. Since we have no doctor, Akara is his safety net.

Brave Adventurers (Vanilla Townies): You are the heroes of this story, without you, no victory over evil can be found. But you are armed only with your wits and your vote, with those you must make do. Standard Vanilla Townies.

Standard townies.

Mephisto (Mafia Spying Secretary): At your disposal is a legion of Zakarumite priests, and they possess knowledge of the ancient sacred languages of the Gods. This allows you to spy on Tyrael, and learn what he does. Same rules as Akara, except Mafia instead of Pro-Town. Is told who Tyrael investigated and the result they got (just for clarification, the whole mafia learns this at the same time Tyrael and Akara learns the result of the investigation, as soon as the morning news post is made. So the Mafia can't discuss the result but Baal and Diablo don't need to wait till the next night to find out what they learn from Mephisto's power). Learns results even for the night in which Tyrael is night killed. Doesn't know who Tyrael is.

I think this is going to be scum's biggest advantage. Example, Diablo is investigated and comes up scum, Mephisto claims Akara and leads a lynch. Mephisto gets trusted. *ANYONE WHO CLAIMS AKARA TO LEAD A LYNCH WITH A SCUM RESULT, TYRAEL SHOULD INVESTIGATE THAT PERSON THE NEXT NIGHT!*

Diablo (Mafia Goon): Bad Diablo! No Bone Prison for you! Also you're the Lord of Terror, but yeah, not much power there. A standard Mafia Goon, except they are also PM'd what Mephisto learns from his ability.

Seriously, he was harder than the others, and here, he's just a wimp.

Baal (Mafia Godfather): The Lord of Destruction himself. Your clone ability allows you to trick even might Tyrael. Appears pro-town to Tyrael (Cop). Is also PM'd what Mephisto learns from his ability.

Standard godfather.

I think our priority should be Baal over Meph so that we can trust cop results. As I said, Tyrael should not be claiming on results as long as Akara is alive. Akara, if Tyrael hits scum and you don't claim for him, you are costing town big time.

With no vig and no doctor, NKs will be guaranteed, however, limited to only one. I'm not sure if I'm ready to count the jesterbomb as truly pro town though. I'm going into this game with the following in mind.

7town/3scum/1indepentant

He may count for our win, but he isn't going to be contributing much as he'll likely muddy the crap out of the waters and waste a lynch. That said, we are almost guaranteed a ML. At least scum has some incentive to NK him since the voting records will reveal those who are chickens with their vote.

Thoughts?

by **weiyaoli** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:52 pm UTC

Discerning Undead Stygian Doll (Discerning Bomb) isn't a jester as far I can tell.... :/
Where did you get that from Lataro....?

by **ElectricHaze** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:26 pm UTC

Just a quick hello for now. I've got stuff to do most of the day, but I'll try to get on later and post my thoughts.

by **Lataro** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:35 pm UTC

A jester in my mind is someone who wants to be lynched. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a win condition of half a win with town, half a win if lynched and kills scum or something like that. Any time you give a power on lynch, whoever has it generally wants to use it. I don't know how well this will work out trying to make a jester town aligned, but it should prove interesting to see what happens. As is, the only value for town he has, is that scum will be reluctant to be the last vote on someone, and thus we might glean something from voting records down the line. I'd be honestly surprised if the role actually got to use their power, just because it would be foolish of scum to hammer/be the last vote on someone with this guy in the mix.

by **jayhsu** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:41 pm UTC

No, the discerning bomb is definitely pro town. Unless you're assuming this is a bastard game and the mods are lying, there is no reason not to think they are. It is strange that you are misstating what I believe is very clear in the rules. They don't explode on town hammer - how can you get more pro-town than that?

by **Lataro** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:48 pm UTC

You are missing my entire point. I am not saying they are LITERALLY anti-town.

I am saying that since they will desire to be lynched, their actual actions can POTENTIALLY BE anti-town, as they can/might/likely will muddy waters as they try to get lynched in hopes that they kill a hammering scum.

In my mind, and as I said, in my mind alone, I don't consider them town, due to that aspect of the role.

I fully realize they won't go boom on town, that isn't all at in any way, shape, or form my point. My point is that the act of desiring to be lynched, AT ALL does not serve the town well.

by **tastelikecoke** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:09 pm UTC

tastelikecoke wrote:Roleclaiming to be a bomb (and people believing) will make you unlynchable, so pro-towns shouldn't role claim as a bomb, as falseclaiming Prime Evils will probably exploit this.

My post is full of fail. This is merely misinterpretation of the rules.

The discerning bomb shouldn't be a concern for this moment, since his chances of killing the Prime Evils only rise high in the next daes.

by **Aardvarki** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:28 pm UTC

Lataro, I'm not sure I agree completely with the bomb being jesterlike. Seems to me that the smart thing to do as the bomb is to stay alive until late game (D3 onwards), when scum are going to be closer in numbers and trying to push lynches. I think the utility of the bomb's power only increases as the game gets closer, however the longer the bomb waits to get lynched the higher their odds of getting NKed and losing their explosion, so there's risk involved there, too.

The secretary is a neat touch, though I haven't had enough time to consider appropriate strategies for it. I'm pretty sure an Akara claim is just going to get Akara killed right away, so obviously they should only claim if Tyrael finds scum.

by **_infina_** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:59 pm UTC

If the bomb knows what he/she is doing, he/she will not want to use the power of the role.I would guess this power would work on Baal, even though the godfather ability can trick Tyrael.

BigNose wrote:
_infina_ wrote:
Spoiler:
I'll start right in and say that I think Mephisto is the first Prime Evil to go after, taking away their insight into the investigations. With the discerning bomb, I don't think the Prime Evils will be doing much hammering to start with. I think the spying secretaries were a nice touch, someone who can confirm the cop, but only if Mephisto is no longer in the picture, so the Prime Evils can't do a counter-claim. If they do it right, the Prime Evils with Mephisto could cause any FTC strategy to backfire. Role-claiming D1 will backfire for all town.

But that's just what I think. Anyone else have other thoughts on this? I want to end this in three days without a mislynch.

I'm not sure that the scum getting the cop result is a great deal advantageous, they already know who they/we are, the only benefit would be if they have been copped, so they have some one they can potentially bus. Certainly, the FTC and cop-claim would be a complete downer on Town while he is around, and as we don't have a Doctor role, any claim before 2 dead scum is suicidal.
Personally, I would go after the GF, I'm not sure how, given he'll show up as Town, but exactly for that reason.

Atleast with Mephisto (or the other scum), we would get a scum report from our Cop plus mate and hopefully pick up the hints.

Something about this strikes me as scummy, but I'm not sure what it is.
From what I can tell three people have yet to post: PE, keeneal, and Vox.

by **ElectricHaze** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:09 pm UTC

I'm back, and now that I've had a chance to read through everything properly I can add a few thoughts.
Alright, I'll start with the Stygian Doll... It's certainly an interesting role though I'm not sure we will see his power come into play, unless he can make it to late game. I don't think it is likely that we will see the Jester like play lataro is suggesting. Throwing up mud and wine early on will probably end up getting the doll lynched, but at this point with 8 vs 3 it would be all to easy for the mafia to avoid casting the hammer. So, that style of play would be really bad for the town. Hopefully the doll will play it smart and try and survive to mid-late game, where the numbers make it harder for the mafia to avoid dropping the hammer, before trying to get blown up.

Next we have these spy secretarys. It is an interesting role. For the town it provides a way for everyone to have access to the cops results without the cop claiming. This is a good thing since we have no doctor. It also gives us someone who can counter-claim against any mafia claims again without endangering the cop. I think perhaps a better name would be Tyreal's Sturdy Human Shield of the Whale: +19% Defense, +97 life. The mafia get one of their own, and unlike Akara as long as Mephisto is alive everyone in the mafia gets told the information, which means if the mafia make a false claim it doesn't have to be Mephisto, and will in fact most likely be Diablo. Our plus here is that they get the information at day start so they can't discuss it and plan during their night talk.

Next there is a cop. Standard cop, since there is no doctor we won't be able to have any long term FTC strat, and it would be a bad idea for him to claim, unless Akara is already dead, and his investigation comes back scum. Other than that there isn't much to say here.

Finally the Godfather. Another standard role. Nothing to say as standard play applies, we just won't have any bonus info from our roles to help root out this devious prime evil.

Anyways, it seems like an interesting setup. Let's have a good game.

by **Vox Imperatoris** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:48 pm UTC

BigNose wrote:
_infina_ wrote:I'll start right in and say that I think Mephisto is the first Prime Evil to go after, taking away their insight into the investigations. With the discerning bomb, I don't think the Prime Evils will be doing much hammering to start with. I think the spying secretaries were a nice touch, someone who can confirm the cop, but only if Mephisto is no longer in the picture, so the Prime Evils can't do a counter-claim. If they do it right, the Prime Evils with Mephisto could cause any FTC strategy to backfire. Role-claiming D1 will backfire for all town.

But that's just what I think. Anyone else have other thoughts on this? I want to end this in three days without a mislynch.

I'm not sure that the scum getting the cop result is a great deal advantageous, they already know who they/we are, the only benefit would be if they have been copped, so they have some one they can potentially bus. Certainly, the FTC and cop-claim would be a complete downer on Town while he is around, and as we don't have a Doctor role, any claim before 2 dead scum is suicidal.
Personally, I would go after the GF, I'm not sure how, given he'll show up as Town, but exactly for that reason.

I think Mephisto helps the scum a lot more than that. You're forgetting that the scum will also know who has already been cleared by the cop as innocent, so will avoid going after those people and thus be less likely to reveal themselves. On the other hand, it's pointless to speculate over who we should lynch first because we're not going to be offered all three mafia members on a platter and asked to choose between them. We're just going to have to work from their slip-ups.

The anti-scum bomber sounds powerful, but on closer examination I don't think it will have any effect besides making the mafia reluctant to hammer. I don't really see how the role could be anti-town, though, unless that player interprets the role completely wrong. The bomber has no interest in getting town members to hammer them, only scum, so I see its main use being in a situation where the scum attempt to ram through a lynch without much town support. Still, it will most likely have zero effect in this game.

by **PhoenixEnigma** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:28 pm UTC

I'm still working over how these spys, such as they are, are going to affect the game. My first thought is that it's going to make life much harder for the cop, as it gives the scum a lot more info about who the cop might be. I'd agree that Akara is the best bet for protecting the cop - normally, the cop can try to lead the town, but I think if the mafia know as much as they will, that might make it too easy to connect the dots and get the cop NK'd. As Vox ninja'd me with, it also means the scum can target people that haven't been cleared by the cop yet more easily.

With regards to our discriminating bomber, I don't see how they could be anti town. Given that this is a newbie game, and open setup, I'm pretty confidant that they're win condition is simply to get the town to win, and (presuming, of course, they're a rational actor), they're going to be as pro-town as anyone. The fact that they exist will be something we'll need to take into account when looking at voting patterns, but I think ultimately that change will make it slightly harder for scum to hide. There's also the chance that, if they role claim for some reason (note, not advised), they could be used as a sort of destructive day cop. That one is a long shot, though.

Overall, I think this set up is going to encourage more focus on peoples behavior and less on game-actions, which is never a bad thing.

by **Vox Imperatoris** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:15 pm UTC

PhoenixEnigma wrote:The fact that they exist will be something we'll need to take into account when looking at voting patterns, but I think ultimately that change will make it slightly harder for scum to hide.

Actually, I think the bomber might make the scum harder to find, in that it encourages them to play it safe, rather than take risks which could expose them.

There's also the chance that, if they role claim for some reason (note, not advised), they could be used as a sort of destructive day cop. That one is a long shot, though.

Can you explain what you're thinking here? I don't understand how this could work at all.

by **_infina_** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:36 am UTC

I now can put my finger on what struck me as scummy about BN. Trying to downplay the importance of what is really the only power role that the mafia has. Sure they have a godfather, but that really isn't that powerful, it just makes the godfather a little bit harder to find. If we can get rid of the other two, Baal will be backed into a corner, where the power of the bomb could come into play. It would nonetheless have to be planned carefully.
FoS:BigNose

by **PhoenixEnigma** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:53 am UTC

Vox Imperatoris wrote:
PhoenixEnigma wrote:The fact that they exist will be something we'll need to take into account when looking at voting patterns, but I think ultimately that change will make it slightly harder for scum to hide.
Actually, I think the bomber might make the scum harder to find, in that it encourages them to play it safe, rather than take risks which could expose them.

I guess it comes down to play style. It makes it less likely for scum to hammer, which shrinks the number of voters likely to be scum. In a small game like this, that can have a decent effect. On the other hand, it means they may indeed be more cautious, which could cause trouble.

There's also the chance that, if they role claim for some reason (note, not advised), they could be used as a sort of destructive day cop. That one is a long shot, though.
Can you explain what you're thinking here? I don't understand how this could work at all.

The logic was something along the lines of "put suspected scum in a position to hammer a known/suspected bomb and see what they do." On reflection, it's a pretty flawed idea - I can maybe construct a fictional scenario where it would make sense, but not in this game (as I think it would need at least independents, if not a cult as well, to work). We can probably ignore that.

by **tastelikecoke** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:51 am UTC

Question: The mod says the cop's result, or the cop say his result?

Depending on the answer Akara can be useful or useless.

by **_infina_** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:59 am UTC

tastelikecoke wrote:Question: The mod says the cop's result, or the cop say his result?

Depending on the answer Akara can be useful or useless.

Silknor will probably send three PMs with the investigations results, one to Tyrael, one to Akara, and one to all the mafia at once. Silknor will not publicly announce the results in the thread, for the mechanics of the game would be gummed up, for lack of a better term. Akara is quite useful, as to confirm the cop, and if the cop is NKed, give the results of the last investigation.

by **Silknor** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:27 am UTC

_infina_ wrote:Silknor will probably send three PMs with the investigations results, one to Tyrael, one to Akara, and one to all the mafia at once. Silknor will not publicly announce the results in the thread.

This is correct.

Future questions to the mod should be bolded to distinguish them.

by **keeneal** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:25 am UTC

The other big thing about the spies is that they open up a perfect Cop claim for every scum as long as the evil spy is alive. Until the evil spy is dead, we can't trust any Cop or Good Spy claim, which will make it very difficult to get a FTC going.

by **Vox Imperatoris** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:48 am UTC

keeneal wrote:The other big thing about the spies is that they open up a perfect Cop claim for every scum as long as the evil spy is alive. Until the evil spy is dead, we can't trust any Cop or Good Spy claim, which will make it very difficult to get a FTC going.

Yeah, that does seem to be a problem. I'm just thinking that situation through right now...

Say a mafia member claims cop, gives the results of the results of the previous investigations, maybe with one changed/fake, and calls for a lynch on someone. But wait, I see two problems with that scenario. First, no one would believe a cop claim unless the Good Spy were already dead, or if the cop were right about to get lynched. Second, all the town would have to do to check the cop claim would be to look at the mod-revealed alignment of the player the "cop" calls to lynch. If the cop said, "This person is scum," and he turns up town, then we know the "cop" was lying and therefore is scum himself.

With that in mind, I don't think we have too much to worry about from a fake Spy/Cop claim, because it will at most reveal itself by the next Day.

Sorry if the "stream of consciousness" style post is annoying/confusing; I thought it would be best to show the order of my thought process.

by **BigNose** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:39 am UTC

_infina_ wrote:I now can put my finger on what struck me as scummy about BN. Trying to downplay the importance of what is really the only power role that the mafia has. Sure they have a godfather, but that really isn't that powerful, it just makes the godfather a little bit harder to find. If we can get rid of the other two, Baal will be backed into a corner, where the power of the bomb could come into play. It would nonetheless have to be planned carefully.
FoS:BigNose

It wasn't my intention to down-play the Mephisto role, but to increase the GF's position. The 2 scum can be picked off by the cop and removed from game. Even if we do that for the first 2 days, we will be down to 7 Townies, which is really 6+GF. In that case, the GF can act as Townie as hell and in the meantime, we'll probably be picking each other off and he still has the NK, so while having Memphisto around can cause lots of WIFOM should cop claiming come up, having the GF as the last scum is horrific.

by **_infina_** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:58 am UTC

BigNose wrote:
Spoiler:
_infina_ wrote:I now can put my finger on what struck me as scummy about BN. Trying to downplay the importance of what is really the only power role that the mafia has. Sure they have a godfather, but that really isn't that powerful, it just makes the godfather a little bit harder to find. If we can get rid of the other two, Baal will be backed into a corner, where the power of the bomb could come into play. It would nonetheless have to be planned carefully.
FoS:BigNose

It wasn't my intention to down-play the Mephisto role, but to increase the GF's position. The 2 scum can be picked off by the cop and removed from game. Even if we do that for the first 2 days, we will be down to 7 Townies, which is really 6+GF. In that case, the GF can act as Townie as hell and in the meantime, we'll probably be picking each other off and he still has the NK, so while having Memphisto around can cause lots of WIFOM should cop claiming come up, having the GF as the last scum is horrific.

If someone spontaneously changes their posting style, we will know though, so the only way the GF could hide by acting townie is by acting townie the whole time, in which case the GF would not be investigated to begin with. The GF is just like a regular mafia goon in a game without a cop.
Vote:BigNose
For reasons I have previously stated.

by **tastelikecoke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:18 am UTC

A cop claim seems to be illogical at the side of the cop, since he already have a secretary for that. Once Akara gets killed the game will start to heat up. Cops will claim everywhere.

-If BigNose's awesomegasmic thoughts were to play, we should wait for 4 people to stand out. GF is a good candidate for a cop claim. Mephisto will surely hide. The goon will be the scum that will screw us.
-BN's first line of logic failed to explain why should we get GF out, and that's very scummy. You can smell that he is Mephisto.

BN, defend that you aren't Mephisto.

by **keeneal** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:33 am UTC

tastelikecoke wrote:A cop claim seems to be illogical at the side of the cop, since he already have a secretary for that. Once Akara gets killed the game will start to heat up. Cops will claim everywhere.

-If BigNose's awesomegasmic thoughts were to play, we should wait for 4 people to stand out. GF is a good candidate for a cop claim. Mephisto will surely hide. The goon will be the scum that will screw us.
-BN's first line of logic failed to explain why should we get GF out, and that's very scummy. You can smell that he is Mephisto.

BN, defend that you aren't Mephisto.

Wait. What? A cop claim on D1 is a bad idea? Really? Huh. :sarcasm:

"Mephisto will surely hide" - true. Unless he doesn't, which would be a really good strategy. Being an active and seemingly pro-town player is the ~~best~~only way for scum to survive to endgame.

Your second point makes sense until you start talking about smelling roles. I'll agree that BN doesn't explain why getting the grandfather out is a good idea, but there's a reason for that. Mafia power roles are good targets for the town for the same reason that Town power roles are good targets for the mafia. I think you know this and that you therefore meant something along the lines of "BN failed to explain why getting the grandfather out should take priority over the other scummy power roles". That's a good point, and the question of priority is certainly a good one... but I fail to see a direct connection between your criticism and a reason why BN would be Mephisto. I mean, if you interpret that as a tell (which I guess you could), it could just as easily be for any scum-aligned player.

You're being awfully specific based on something that isn't really all that scummy. Can you explain why you think BN's commentary point to him being Mephisto?

by **tastelikecoke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:14 am UTC

I wrote:A cop claim seems to be illogical at the side of the cop, since he already have a secretary for that. Once Akara gets killed the game will start to heat up. Cops will claim everywhere.
Wait. What? A cop claim on D1 is a bad idea? Really? Huh. :sarcasm:

Im just saying my obvious logics here, I'm still kinda new, so obvious facts are not readily obvious to me. And I'm not talking about D1, it's about D2.

keeneal wrote:Your second point makes sense until you start talking about smelling roles. I'll agree that BN doesn't explain why getting the grandfather out is a good idea, but there's a reason for that. Mafia power roles are good targets for the town for the same reason that Town power roles are good targets for the mafia. I think you know this and that you therefore meant something along the lines of "BN failed to explain why getting the grandfather out should take priority over the other scummy power roles". That's a good point, and the question of priority is certainly a good one... but I fail to see a direct connection between your criticism and a reason why BN would be Mephisto. I mean, if you interpret that as a tell (which I guess you could), it could just as easily be for any scum-aligned player.

My whole logic was at a disarray. But yes, BN can be just as well defending himself, evading the focus of townies, then roleclaim as cop. Otherwise he can be a townie with a very different opinion or a scum defending his teammates.

Also all my pronouns might be wrong if BN is female.

by **tastelikecoke** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:18 am UTC

EBWOP: He can also be a cop, but the apparent lack of cop hat proves otherwise.

by **BigNose** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:21 am UTC

Allow me to clear up a point about why I consider the GF is worse than Mephisto:

BigNose » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:24 am UTC wrote:Personally, I would go after the GF, I'm not sure how, given he'll show up as Town, but exactly for that reason.

I have Bolded the words as the reason for going for the GF over Mephisto. It's bad enough that scum know who we are, but we don't know who they are. To me, it's even worse that 1 of them can 'cop' like us.

Lataro » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:26 pm UTC wrote:I think our priority should be Baal over Meph so that we can trust cop results.

It seems that I am not the only one of this opinion.

BigNose » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:39 am UTC wrote:In that case, the GF can act as Townie as hell and in the meantime . . .

_infina_ » Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 am UTC wrote:If someone spontaneously changes their posting style . . .

I wasn't really thinking that the GF would change his style, I sort-of took it that's the way he'd play it.

tastelikecoke » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:18 am UTC wrote:-BN's first line of logic failed to explain why should we get GF out, and that's very scummy.

I refer back to my first response in this post: It's personal.

keeneal » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:33 am UTC wrote:I'll agree that BN doesn't explain why getting the grandfather out is a good idea . . . .
I think you know this and that you therefore meant something along the lines of "BN failed to explain why getting the grandfather out should take priority over the other scummy power roles". That's a good point, and the question of priority is certainly a good one...

And again, I did explain, but this has been obviously missed.

In fact, that obviousness suggests scumminess in itself and the fact that you are 'softening' the words that were used by TLC would suggest that you 2 might be scum supporting scum, but the fact that you are openly (lightly) supporting him, also suggests too much obviousness and therefore Townie.

Damn WIFOM.

[Fos: Keeneal
FoS: TLC[/b]

tastelikecoke wrote:EBWOP: He can also be a cop, but the apparent lack of cop hat proves otherwise.

LOL

by **BigNose** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:32 am UTC

EBWOP: I'll try that again . . .
FoS: Keeneal
FoS: TLC

by **jayhsu** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:27 pm UTC

tastelikecoke wrote:A cop claim seems to be illogical at the side of the cop, since he already have a secretary for that. Once Akara gets killed the game will start to heat up. Cops will claim everywhere.

Unfortunately, the good spy does not know who the cop is.

Vox Imperatoris wrote:I think Mephisto helps the scum a lot more than that. You're forgetting that the scum will also know who has already been cleared by the cop as innocent, so will avoid going after those people and thus be less likely to reveal themselves. On the other hand, it's pointless to speculate over who we should lynch first because we're not going to be offered all three mafia members on a platter and asked to choose between them. We're just going to have to work from their slip-ups.

What if the cop copped themselves?

@Silknor: Can the Cop cop themselves?

by **jayhsu** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:28 pm UTC

Ebwop: It is a smallish game, however, and we may not be able to afford a wasted night.

by **weiyaoli** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:38 pm UTC

Why would the cop want to cop himself...?

IMEGOY: jayhsu

Otherwise, this is just a note to say I might be away for the next 2ish days since I have exams on Wed and Thrus.

by **jayhsu** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:46 pm UTC

Vox Imperatoris wrote:I think Mephisto helps the scum a lot more than that. You're forgetting that the scum will also know who has already been cleared by the cop as innocent, so will avoid going after those people and thus be less likely to reveal themselves.

By copping themselves, they may throw off suspicion from themselves. If you believe Vox's analysis is right (that scum will avoid cop-cleared town), then this does not seem a terrible strategy. But as I said, we might not have enough time for the cop to try this strategy.

by **Lataro** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:56 pm UTC

jayhsu wrote:
Vox Imperatoris wrote:I think Mephisto helps the scum a lot more than that. You're forgetting that the scum will also know who has already been cleared by the cop as innocent, so will avoid going after those people and thus be less likely to reveal themselves.

By copping themselves, they may throw off suspicion from themselves. If you believe Vox's analysis is right (that scum will avoid cop-cleared town), then this does not seem a terrible strategy. But as I said, we might not have enough time for the cop to try this strategy.

Obviously, once this is stated in thread for all to read, it becomes a completely invalid strategy. Another interpretation of asking for the cop to cop themselves N1 to be "cleared" by the mafia is, "I am scum and want to know who the cop is so we can kill him N2".

Big Ole Giant FOS on Jayhsu

Who is online