0768: "1996"

[Larson]

From my personal collection, weighing in at a measly 780+ pages. The art of buying computer bits, pre-internet *gasp*. Thick like my d......phone book....







Sup Randy?

[zoommathguy]

The rules as I understand them is that a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard is, de facto, a computer, which is something of an absurdity since the difference between the TI Voyage 200 and the TI-89 models is largely a matter of form factor (both units have roughly the same computing power as a Mac SE), and the HP-50g and TI-Nspire (particularly the CAS model) are pretty heavy-duty for something you carry around in a pocket or Trapper Keeper. Styli and touchscreens are also frowned upon.

Form factor matters. The College Board doesn't want a QWERTY keyboard because that makes it easier to type the full text of an SAT question into your calculator.

-Jeff

[hintss]

From my personal collection, weighing in at a measly 780+ pages. The art of buying computer bits, pre-internet *gasp*. Thick like my d......phone book....







Sup Randy?

I have a feeling that whenever I research a product, I proabably go through the same bandwidth...

[darkspork]

The rules as I understand them is that a calculator with a QWERTY keyboard is, de facto, a computer, which is something of an absurdity since the difference between the TI Voyage 200 and the TI-89 models is largely a matter of form factor (both units have roughly the same computing power as a Mac SE), and the HP-50g and TI-Nspire (particularly the CAS model) are pretty heavy-duty for something you carry around in a pocket or Trapper Keeper. Styli and touchscreens are also frowned upon.

Form factor matters. The College Board doesn't want a QWERTY keyboard because that makes it easier to type the full text of an SAT question into your calculator.

-Jeff

Ha. I have a program that gives it one. It's part TIBasic, part VB6 (you need to connect it to a PC afterward), and mostly 'Lol screw you. I'll program whatever damn features I want. You can't tell me what to do. I have a COMPUTER.' The program sucked terribly, and it was hard to tell what you had typed until connecting it to the PC later, but it worked. I also wrote a program that let you convert a .txt file to, essentially, an e-book. I never used it to save math stuff, but I could have. I mainly used it to hold study materials for History, as I had that class immediately after Trig. That way, I could cram that extra 40 minutes in. The trig wasn't important. I could figure it out on my own later. It was easier than figuring out what the hell the teacher was talking about.

I'm retroactively naming the e-book program TImber.

[DrakeAnubis]

They could introduce color and backlighting without textbook publishers needing to update their illustrations.

[hotaru]

You know the RSA key for that thing was cracked last year, right? To me, that was bigger than 09 F9. I won't make any mention of what it is or where to get it (try asking Grandma Otis Or George Lewis Eubert) because TI made a big stink. It's their fault for using a 128 bit key and never updating their software. TI sucks.

if anyone wants them, a google search for "ti signing keys" (without quotes) is all you have to do... there are two sites with them on the first page.

Also, the software they have to transfer files to and from that thing is terrible, and why the hell can't the calculator run off USB power when it's plugged in?

they're finally using USB instead of an old 9-pin serial serial port?

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

Benefit to staying low-powered: my calculators (both HP and TI) which I use fairly regularly, have needed one battery change (and no charging) in ten years, between them.

for some reason my ti-83+ silver edition has developed a problem where the batteries in it last about 3 days, even if the calculator isn't turned off the whole time... but i don't really have any reason to use it anymore, since i have wabbitds on my ds and realcalc and droid48 on my phone.

The SAT calculator list just says they can't communicate or have a touch screen, stylus or qwerty interface

the ti calculators can communicate... information about how to build an IR adapter to hook up to the link port is widely available, and i actually connected two calculators to cheap walkie-talkies and was able to transfer things between them at opposite ends of the building when i was in high school. there's also a text editor with qwerty input.

[BrianX]

i actually connected two calculators to cheap walkie-talkies and was able to transfer things between them at opposite ends of the building when i was in high school.

How? I. Must. Know. How did you modulate the signal?

[DrakeAnubis]

Lewis Black discovered that all TI calculators in existence were manufactured in 1995.

[Mavrisa]

... and it has the mental capacity of a chimp ...

Whoa! Not fair to chimps at all!

[hintss]

... and it has the mental capacity of a chimp ...

Whoa! Not fair to chimps at all!

maybe the calculator's more powerful than we think?

[darkspork]

if anyone wants them, a google search for "ti signing keys" (without quotes) is all you have to do... there are two sites with them on the first page.

I was trying to be a bit more candid.

i'm pretty sure they can

Yeah, but you shouldn't need hacks to pull stuff off like that.

[hotaru]

i actually connected two calculators to cheap walkie-talkies and was able to transfer things between them at opposite ends of the building when i was in high school.

How? I. Must. Know. How did you modulate the signal?

the walkie-talkies had plugs to connect something to them (i don't remember what)... all i did was cut a link cable in half and figure out which wires to connect where.

[Kartoffelkopf]

Looking through old computer advertisements are always hilarious.

I find it really amazing that it's been 20 years since the 90s. Now I feel old.

I uploaded this photo to Facebook a few weeks back, because I'm the sort who uploads photos about random stuff lying around my room.

System requirements for Encarta 96.

Before Wikipedia, we had Encarta. You installed it on your computer and dicked around with making planets crash into each other and playing that maze game that was too long for anyone to beat.

Some of this stuff makes me remember that computers used to be very basic...an audio board? The only reason I can think of that being there is that I'm guessing older computers DIDN'T HAVE SOUND. That just blows my mind. Even my fucking Amiga had sound.
Also, who still used a 386 in the 90s? Honestly?

Now I'm used to old games taking up less than a gig of space (Fallout 2 is 32MB) but 8MB RAM?!
I'm still amazed that Encarta takes up less space than FO2. I know it's mostly text, but it has pictures and videos and stuff. How the hell can you fit that into 11MB?

[illiriks]

I had several hours of free time every day in junior high due to scheduling conflicts, and I coded so much stuff for the TI-83+. By getting a serial adapter, I added things like wireless linking, device to device USB, and all sorts of stuff. I even could code assembly on the 83! Good times.

[Eebster the Great]

In terms of being behind the ball on specs, blood glucose meters take the cake. They somehow combine state-of-the-art blood glucose sensing technology with 1980s storage capacity. Most meters won't store more than around 200 readings, despite each reading being merely an integer and a time. The total storage capacity must be around two kb.

[vookaloop]

Not to ruin the joke but I've always heard the reason graphing calculators are so expensive is because you are paying for the software. Though it's not as robust as newer software like matlab, the old TI software clearly still has value. It's also much cheaper than a matlab license ($500 student version).

[mcd]

It's also much cheaper than a matlab license ($500 student version).

Man, you've got to be kidding me -- where do you go to school? I'm at Michigan and it's $100 for a MATLAB student license here.

[sobek]

Ah, the animosity toward TI. Calculators are not a primary product of TI; a professor who worked there informed me after I made a comment about their variety of products, but it is just something for them to stick their chips into. (DSP maybe?) I know how easily I am distracted (ooh! piece of candy!), and I know I would try to port SuperTux or something to it, but, yes, by this point they could surely add color and/or improve resolution. (E Ink-type screen!?)

Well, I really just wanted to say that it is amazingly fun to browse through old computer magazines and see things like a 10MB storage CARD (I'm sure it's storage, not memory) that cost $1000 (more or less? I'm unsure now) for your computer! I am fortunate that my university has a large selection of these hard copies for the perusal of students. I love it, they are a source of great amusement to me!

[Switch31]

Not to ruin the joke but I've always heard the reason graphing calculators are so expensive is because you are paying for the software. Though it's not as robust as newer software like matlab, the old TI software clearly still has value. It's also much cheaper than a matlab license ($500 student version).

The vanilla student version of MATLAB is $99.00 (although the price goes up considerably if you add on all the fancy toolboxes). It's cheaper than a new TI-89 and it has several times the functionality. The drawback of MATLAB or similar "student-only" programs that you purchase in undergrad is that you can't use them once you've found a job (or in any financial enterprise). That trusty TI-89 will still be at your side.

Why they still have such a bad display is another story entirely.

[quettandil]

Not to ruin the joke but I've always heard the reason graphing calculators are so expensive is because you are paying for the software. Though it's not as robust as newer software like matlab, the old TI software clearly still has value. It's also much cheaper than a matlab license ($500 student version).

Don't worry, you're not ruining the joke. The reason they can afford to charge you that much for their software is because their marketing is so good that they don't have any real competition. As zoommathguy said:

But hey, I deeply respect TI's marketing department. For those who are wondering, TI dominates the graphing calculator market because they work so well with teachers. Math teachers are usually smart, but often they're not the sort who enjoy learning arcane technology. Why do they recommend TI calculators? Because every math teachers conference in America features TI-sponsored speakers who clearly explain how to use TI calculators! If you buy a Casio or HP, chances are your teacher won't know the first thing about your calculator.

I'm one of Zoom Math's employees. Our most powerful app is only $69.95; sure, it can't do quite as much as the TI software can yet (for the smart kids who know how to program their calculators), but you can solve systems of equations and whatnot, just by typing it in; it's a whole lot less clunky. Less clunky than matlab, too. And it doesn't "make your computer cry." Of course, you need to buy one of TI's calculators to run our app, but it still shows they could do a lot better with their software if they really wanted to.

-Marcy

[Hazman]

- snip -

System requirements for Encarta 96.

Before Wikipedia, we had Encarta. You installed it on your computer and dicked around with making planets crash into each other and playing that maze game that was too long for anyone to beat.

Some of this stuff makes me remember that computers used to be very basic...an audio board? The only reason I can think of that being there is that I'm guessing older computers DIDN'T HAVE SOUND. That just blows my mind. Even my fucking Amiga had sound.
Also, who still used a 386 in the 90s? Honestly?

Now I'm used to old games taking up less than a gig of space (Fallout 2 is 32MB) but 8MB RAM?!
I'm still amazed that Encarta takes up less space than FO2. I know it's mostly text, but it has pictures and videos and stuff. How the hell can you fit that into 11MB?

I distinctly remember requiring the CD to be in the drive. In fact, I think it came on two CD-ROMs, so if you wanted to flip through you'd need to do a lot of disc changing. Same with pretty much all CD based games - extra storage space was the major draw of the CD, after all.

[MarkGyver]

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

As far as I can tell, those programs just copy it into RAM in the background.

The SAT calculator list just says they can't communicate or have a touch screen, stylus or qwerty interface

Maybe they'd accept a QWERTY-using calculator that's been remapped and relabeled to Dvorak?

You guys are missing the biggest reason by far, which is battery life! Battery technology for the cheapest alkaline batteries hasn't changed at all in the last 10 years (at least). Start stuffing in color (hell, even backlit) screens, touchscreens, and faster processors, and battery life would go to shit. You'd have to replace the batteries every week at best, or put in rechargeable Lithium Ion which would be even worse because there's no cheap way to have a backup if you accidentally run out during a test.

If they cared about battery life, they would make them use AA size instead of AAA. AA are much more efficient cost/hour than AAA. Anyway, even with short-lasting AAAs, I only need to change the batteries on my TI83+SE every few months when I'm using it a lot.

That's not to say TI isn't improving the things they can improve without hurting battery life- A quick search shows the TI84 plus silver is packing 1.5 MB of flash memory and USB connection to a computer, as well as "more than twice the speed" of the TI 83 plus. Still overpriced but there's a good excuse for certain specs not having improved.

The TI84+SE is just a TI83+SE with USB, slightly updated software, and a built-in clock, with the extra features actually slowing it down a bit. In highschool I ran a prime generating program I made on my TI83+SE and my friend's TI84+SE at the same time and the 83 was faster. I don't remember how much of a difference it was, though.

I have to second the battery life argument. My TI-83+ has a battery life that can easily put my droid incredible to shame. I wouldn't be surprised if it can run for over one hundred hours on four double A batteries which are dirt cheap compared to the forty dollar rechargeable battery in my phone which can only last around four hours of heavy usage. Also, as for the usage breakdown when wi-fi, and syncing are turned off it still can only go six hours. If half of that is the antenna that means it would run for twelve with the display and non-network applications running.

They use triple A's, not double A's. Triple A's cost more per hour of use.

Compare that the a TI-83's 100+ hour run-time and you can see where the slower processor and low resolution black and white display pay off.

I think that remaking the same processor with smaller transisters not only increases the possible clockspeed, but also makes it use less power and generate less heat because the electrical signals don't have to travel as far. If they did that, they could use the savings in power to support a higher-resolution display. Also, I think the power use of a LCD display does not depend as much on the number of pixels as on the physical size, though I do not know for sure.

Niche market?

Maybe so many schools buying them/requiring students to buy them has distorted the market and made innovation less than cost-effective. If you have a captive market, why bother trying? See also: textbook publishers.

Textbook publishers actually have done some "innovating" to continue extracting even more money from their captive market. For example, even though I bought my Spanish textbook for about $30 used on Amazon instead of over $100 from the bookstore, I still have to pay another $70 because students are now required to purchase online access which provides exactly the same stuff that teachers would normally photocopy from the book to have us work on. Not only does it cost more than twice what the book does, but it expires in 18 months and is completely non-transferable, with measures to enforce the non-transferability. The only advantage is that it automatically grades the assignments we have to do through that system, but it does so poorly grading questions that have even the slightest variation in legitimate possible answers that the teacher set it to be credit/no credit so we get full points just for submitting something, at which point we might as well just turn it in offline for participation points.

Anyway, there has been about as much innovation in the field of keeping a market captive as there has been movement against the company which owns the market. See also: Microsoft.

[hotaru]

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

As far as I can tell, those programs just copy it into RAM in the background.

what do you think happens when you run a program on any other platform?

[Mercredi]

I loved my TI-85 as a student. They taught us how to use it in Calc I to a reasonable degree, and I read the manual to learn whatever else I wanted. They also taught us to sanity check our answers. I wrote a primitive 5-room text adventure and a program to symbolically differentiate polynomials. Ah, those were the days...

As a grad TA and now a prof I get frustrated by graphing calculators. They still cost a lot of money, students seem utterly dependent on them for graphing even simple things like $y=1-x^3$, it encourages a very common misconception about how to graph piecewise-defined functions, and most students don't submit the answers to even a basic sanity check and so are quite happy to tell you that nope, the function ln(x-2) does not have a vertical asymptote anywhere. Oh, and students keep using them on exams even when I permit only scientific and four-function calculators, because apparently they think the "scientific" in scientific calculator means "really complicated*" or perhaps "made possible by modern Science and Technology."

*I've had students brag about how they didn't know things like how to turn off their calculator. When I ask them why they didn't just look in the manual, they tend to react as if I suggested they flagellate themselves and then go swim in lemon juice.

[shrimpwd]

I found a few brand new TI-84+SEs recently and decided to purchase them, at $50 each. I do not feel that was the greatest expenditure in the tech department, but for a graphing calculator, yes. Now I need to teach the new generation how they work. (I remember back in '97 when I had my first TI, it was an 86, followed by about 2 dozen 2nd hand 81s, 82s, 83s, 83+s, a 83+SE) Those were the days...

[darkspork]

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

As far as I can tell, those programs just copy it into RAM in the background.

what do you think happens when you run a program on any other platform?

Yes, but considering that it has less than 32K of RAM and is unable to do file I/O, copying the entire source code into RAM might not be the best solution. Plus, I've found that these addons sometimes leave the program in RAM. When your program takes up 20K, even after your PC based compression algorithms have had their way with it, such a memory leak is unacceptable. Also, why no comments? Why no scope? Why are there only global variables? Why do lower case letters take up twice as much memory as their upper case equivalents, and why can't they be entered from the calculator? Why are strings not supported well? Why can't I buffer graphics, even though it has support for storing and displaying pictures? Why does it run on AAAs? Why can't it run on a smaller USB rechargeable battery? WHY was I forced to buy THIS SPECIFIC calculator model? WHY couldn't I use my dad's old HP calculator? WHY AM I SO ANGRY?

[hintss]

Ah, the animosity toward TI. Calculators are not a primary product of TI; a professor who worked there informed me after I made a comment about their variety of products, but it is just something for them to stick their chips into. (DSP maybe?) I know how easily I am distracted (ooh! piece of candy!), and I know I would try to port SuperTux or something to it, but, yes, by this point they could surely add color and/or improve resolution. (E Ink-type screen!?)

Well, I really just wanted to say that it is amazingly fun to browse through old computer magazines and see things like a 10MB storage CARD (I'm sure it's storage, not memory) that cost $1000 (more or less? I'm unsure now) for your computer! I am fortunate that my university has a large selection of these hard copies for the perusal of students. I love it, they are a source of great amusement to me!

actually, I'm pretty sure T.I.'s main product would be the DLP chip...

[Mapar]

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

As far as I can tell, those programs just copy it into RAM in the background.

what do you think happens when you run a program on any other platform?

They can not be run directly from archive. All programs are copied to RAM first.

The problem is page swapping: you cannot execute code on one page of flash (the OS's BASIC parser) and read data (the BASIC program) at the same time. There are only two flash memory banks: 0000-3FFFh and 4000h-7FFFh. The first one is always taken by EEPROM page 0, so only one 'slot' remains. This is why BASIC needs to be run from RAM.

Assembly programs have another problem. Nostub programs are compiled with 9D95h as the origin. Copying them to any other area causes all sorts of havoc: all absolute pointers and jumps are suddenly invalid. Flash apps are compiled with 4000h as the origin, but even then some changes need to be made for the code to work properly. (some functions do not work in flash apps for pretty much the same reason as above)

[monteslu]

Not to ruin the joke but I've always heard the reason graphing calculators are so expensive is because you are paying for the software.

Nope. The software has barely changed in 20 years. Software isn't a fixed cost per unit to the manufacturer the same way that physical materials are unless it's licensed from a third party. Once it's written, you can copy it 1 time or 1 billion times and it doesn't get more expensive. You can't say the same about the CPU or plastic cover.

These things are expensive because that's what TI feels people are willing to pay. It is not directly tied to manufacturing cost.

Anyway, there has been about as much innovation in the field of keeping a market captive as there has been movement against the company which owns the market. See also: Microsoft.

Very well said.

[vookaloop]

Not to ruin the joke but I've always heard the reason graphing calculators are so expensive is because you are paying for the software.

Nope. The software has barely changed in 20 years. Software isn't a fixed cost per unit to the manufacturer the same way that physical materials are unless it's licensed from a third party. Once it's written, you can copy it 1 time or 1 billion times and it doesn't get more expensive. You can't say the same about the CPU or plastic cover.

These things are expensive because that's what TI feels people are willing to pay. It is not directly tied to manufacturing cost.

Um...Exactly?

[Lathe]

Here's some TI-81 photos from the Fall 1992 edition of the EduCALC catalog.

Anyone remember the projector version of the TI-81? My math teacher had one of those.

Here's the TI-81 for $90.


Here's the TI-81 projector version I was mentioning (sorry for the fuzzy photo).

[Lathe]

For the HP 48SX, here some photos from the same Fall 1992 edition of EduCALC.

Wow! A printer (infrared) and a floppy drive for a mere $295!


128KB of RAM, a steal at $125.


Think you need a separate PDA? Think again because your HP 48SX can be a PIM as well!


Need A/D? The 48SX has that as well!


No photos of this, but were all kinds of ROM cards available for the 48SX for engineering, surveying, naval navigation, physics, advanced mathematics, electronics, etc, etc, etc.

[mojo-chan]

what do you think happens when you run a program on any other platform?

Actually lots of embedded systems run code directly from flash. Well, even most PCs do when they boot up by running code from the BIOS directly. I'd say it's actually the norm in the embedded world though. Some microcontrollers don't even have RAM, just registers and flash.

[Cal27]

Why can't programs be executed from flash memory?

i'm pretty sure they can.

As far as I can tell, those programs just copy it into RAM in the background.

what do you think happens when you run a program on any other platform?

Yes, but considering that it has less than 32K of RAM and is unable to do file I/O, copying the entire source code into RAM might not be the best solution. Plus, I've found that these addons sometimes leave the program in RAM. When your program takes up 20K, even after your PC based compression algorithms have had their way with it, such a memory leak is unacceptable. Also, why no comments? Why no scope? Why are there only global variables? Why do lower case letters take up twice as much memory as their upper case equivalents, and why can't they be entered from the calculator? Why are strings not supported well? Why can't I buffer graphics, even though it has support for storing and displaying pictures? Why does it run on AAAs? Why can't it run on a smaller USB rechargeable battery? WHY was I forced to buy THIS SPECIFIC calculator model? WHY couldn't I use my dad's old HP calculator? WHY AM I SO ANGRY?

Actually, you can make comments, just start the line off with a quote. But they won't work if the comment contains ->/STO, or if it's the last line of a program. As for all the other restrictions, they suck, but it does kind of make the programming more interesting and challenging (when it isn't making it excruciatingly tedious and difficult, at least).

[hotaru]

Actually lots of embedded systems run code directly from flash. Well, even most PCs do when they boot up by running code from the BIOS directly. I'd say it's actually the norm in the embedded world though. Some microcontrollers don't even have RAM, just registers and flash.

those systems usually run a single monolithic program, tho. just about any system that lets you run programs will load the code into ram before executing it.

As for all the other restrictions, they suck, but it does kind of make the programming more interesting and challenging (when it isn't making it excruciatingly tedious and difficult, at least).

there's a reason the third program i wrote on my ti-83+ was an assembler...
actually, i wrote it on paper in assembly and then assembled it by hand and typed the machine code in hexadecimal... that was fun.

[mojo-chan]

those systems usually run a single monolithic program, tho. just about any system that lets you run programs will load the code into ram before executing it.

There are many that run multiple programs from flash. Particularly 80s microcomputers, for example, which often allowed for expansion ROMs. In fact PCI and PCIe cards use such ROMs, but they are usually just for hardware support where as the computers I mentioned and other embedded type systems such as electronic typewriters or industrial control systems store programs on them. If you want to load new software you add an additional ROM.

Don't forget games consoles and arcade systems either. Cartridge/ROM based ones all execute code directly from plug-in flash.

[calc84maniac]

TI-83+ can run code from flash. That's what the Flash Applications do. Don't complain if you're too lazy to Flashify your programs.

Also, TI-Nspire has some decent specs (like a 150MHz ARM processor). It just hasn't been fully tapped yet because the hacking community is still wiggling through the holes to run unsigned code. (I released the first TI-Nspire assembly program after the original hack was released, actually )

[Pfhorrest]

I think TI should follow in Apple's footsteps and ban Flash applications from its calculators.

*ducks*

[danix]

Sheesh. Am I the only one here that actually likes the fact that TI hasn't gone down the stupid path that desktop and mobile OSen have gone down? I had to get my dad to buy a TI-89 elsewhere because all of my local Office Depot shops carried the QWERTY keyboard "calculators" like the TI-92. Try explaining to your calculus teacher that the thing isn't a computer.

My Blackberry might have the processing power of a hundred TI-89's, but I doubt any self-respecting teacher will allow it as a "calculator".

Anyway ... one thing I miss from college are the HP 48g calculators. Reverse Polish notation FTW!

[hotaru]

Sheesh. Am I the only one here that actually likes the fact that TI hasn't gone down the stupid path that desktop and mobile OSen have gone down? I had to get my dad to buy a TI-89 elsewhere because all of my local Office Depot shops carried the QWERTY keyboard "calculators" like the TI-92. Try explaining to your calculus teacher that the thing isn't a computer.

My Blackberry might have the processing power of a hundred TI-89's, but I doubt any self-respecting teacher will allow it as a "calculator".

a ti-89 is just as much a computer as a ti-92 or even your blackberry. a ti-83+ can even run a modified version of cp/m.