Meaux_Pas wrote:discouraging the procreation of black people is not the same as discouraging homosexuals from being homosexual! how so?
Do you mean the same in terms of intent or effect? Do you have an example of policy aimed at discouraging the procreation of blacks?
Meaux_Pas wrote:discouraging families from being created, both places. People want to create families, that's what marriage if for. saying that some people can't is, imho, kindof hateful.
Hateful as in sourced by hate? Or deserving of hate? I got in trouble last time I tried to make an educated guess.
If you mean that they're acting on feelings of hate, then that could be true. But I'd like to know what your evidence is that hate is the main motivator for most voters. Unless you're just saying it's true by definition. But then you're using a non-standard definition.
And it's not impossible to separate the gay individual from the act of homosexuality. It's just an unpopular thing to do. But people should get to construct their identity however they want, so if they identify as a gay person rather than a person that does gay things, that identity should be respected.
*I... guess my plain speaking wasn't good enough? I thought I had given you an example. A pretty straightforward concept, in fact. Banning certain people from marriage because of the color of their skin discourages people of that skin color (in our example, black) from procreating in a socially accepted, stable family. Sure, they can procreate all they want otherwise. But that's not what we're talking about here now are we, since once you get to the biological procreation part the analogy falls apart. Oh well.
*I'm talking both intent and effect- discouraging people from creating black families discourages them from having more black babies. Discouraging homosexual people from having families discourages them from having children that they can teach to be accepting of homosexual behavior, while at the same time saying that gay!=normal.
"it's not ok to be black, really, so let's not allow our white folks to marry them"
"it's not ok to be gay, really, so let's not allow them to marry each other"
It's not actually that different.
*Fuck the word hateful. I promise not to use it again. For my purposes I will say 'both definitions' but that's just my opinion and I won't try to defend it as fact. I will use the words ignorant, and absurd. As in, it is ignorant to think that this legislation hasn't been hurting families. It is selfish for one set of people to claim dibs on a legal status. It's absurd to behave as though the defense of Prop 8 has a leg to stand on.
*The fact that you know some people who have 'done gay things' and aren't gay doesn't actually make any kind of fact. Homosexuality is a sexual preference. You can keep trying to say that there's a way to separate the gay person from the gay act, but you haven't actually got any proof of that, and no, your anecdotal evidence does not count. I can simply counter it with my own anecdotal evidence, that I had been solidly not doing gay things
for ten years after I realized I was bisexual! Unless, of course, you count not wearing makeup, wearing men's cargo pants, and oh yeah, being turned on by women.
There's a lot of people in this great land of ours that are having fun or not fun deciding what their sexuality is. It's possible that the people who voted for Prop. 8 believe that we can discourage whatever the fuck 'homosexual behavior' is, and that doing so is somehow not being completely douchey to gay people, but they're wrong. So far, I've yet to see a shred of evidence that anything you've said is true. I believe in terms of separating homosexuals from homosexual behavior, the burden of proof is on you. I know
I'm queer. When I go to the store, I am queer going to the store. When I brush my teeth, I am queer brushing my teeth. Should I stop going to the store or brushing my teeth to curb homosexual behavior? G'ahead and find me some reason to believe that these two things are separable.
And I shall probably use the word absurd again.
Gay marriage is not for the people who are only gay when they're sucking another man's cock. Those people are straight. They can go ahead and get a straight marriage. Gay marriage is for reasonably sane adult homosexual people, and you can't magic them away. You can't pretend that every gay person is potentially not gay, if they'd just not show it.
My final personal tangent on your hypothesis: The idea that homosexual behavior is something that can be discouraged also ought to be achieved in some way other than attacking marriage, right? Aren't marriages generally situations in which sex dies, hur hurr? The people who aren't getting married, but can turn around and have gay sex whenever they like and still come out straight, now that's the trouble.
Nordic Einar wrote:Cool anecdote, bro. You're awfully close to supporting the possibility of conversion therapy - something widely denounced by the medical community. You tell me I should make a distinction between people who try to deny me rights based on their hatred of me as a person, and others who simply hate me for living my life as I do. The end result is exactly the same - I'm being oppressed by some group of assholes, and the "Hate the sin, not the sinner" distinction is pretty fucking difficult to make when you're the sinner. Feels pretty identical to me, really.
I'm not close to supporting conversion therapy. You're now just making up baseless accusations.
Second, your dichotomy just involved people hating you for two different reasons. I find both of those equally wrong, and it's not at all what I'm talking about.
Third, you can choose to remain ignorant of how other people view the world if you want. Personally I believe this sort of willful ignorance is the root of much bigotry and hate. And I think it's precisely what makes many conservative groups lash out so harshly against the gay community.
Hm. Actually, to me and Nordic, those things aren't two different reasons to hate us. It's the same reason. It's that you're trying to separate actions from identity, when being gay isn't now and hasn't ever been just about actions or 'homosexual behavior'. And it shouldn't be.
to your Third:
Quick let's fight ignorance with ignorance! Because to me it's ignorant to think that you can separate the identity from the 'homosexual behavior'. I'm perfectly aware of the fact that people think this, and I'm just interested in finding a quick way to disabuse them of this notion. ...does that make me ignorant, too? Oh, probably.
Well it's ok because at least I can sleep tonight. ...ladies.
EditNinja: THis post took me a really long time because I kept getting distracted and I want to do other things now. To the three posts that popped up since I started, arseholes!