The government can now legally track you without warrant

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The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:24 pm UTC

Today, the 9th Circuit Court ruled that it was okay for the DEA to place a GPS tracker on a suspect's car while parked on his property without warrant. FML

Spoiler:
Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn't violate your Fourth Amendment rights, because you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in your own driveway — and no reasonable expectation that the government isn't tracking your movements.

That is the bizarre — and scary — rule that now applies in California and eight other Western states. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants — with no need for a search warrant. (See a TIME photoessay on Cannabis Culture.)

It is a dangerous decision — one that, as the dissenting judges warned, could turn America into the sort of totalitarian state imagined by George Orwell. It is particularly offensive because the judges added insult to injury with some shocking class bias: the little personal privacy that still exists, the court suggested, should belong mainly to the rich.

This case began in 2007, when Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents decided to monitor Juan Pineda-Moreno, an Oregon resident who they suspected was growing marijuana. They snuck onto his property in the middle of the night and found his Jeep in his driveway, a few feet from his trailer home. Then they attached a GPS tracking device to the vehicle's underside.

After Pineda-Moreno challenged the DEA's actions, a three-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit ruled in January that it was all perfectly legal. More disturbingly, a larger group of judges on the circuit, who were subsequently asked to reconsider the ruling, decided this month to let it stand. (Pineda-Moreno has pleaded guilty conditionally to conspiracy to manufacture marijuana and manufacturing marijuana while appealing the denial of his motion to suppress evidence obtained with the help of GPS.)

In fact, the government violated Pineda-Moreno's privacy rights in two different ways. For starters, the invasion of his driveway was wrong. The courts have long held that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their homes and in the "curtilage," a fancy legal term for the area around the home. The government's intrusion on property just a few feet away was clearly in this zone of privacy.

The judges veered into offensiveness when they explained why Pineda-Moreno's driveway was not private. It was open to strangers, they said, such as delivery people and neighborhood children, who could wander across it uninvited. (See the misadventures of the CIA.)

Chief Judge Alex Kozinski, who dissented from this month's decision refusing to reconsider the case, pointed out whose homes are not open to strangers: rich people's. The court's ruling, he said, means that people who protect their homes with electric gates, fences and security booths have a large protected zone of privacy around their homes. People who cannot afford such barriers have to put up with the government sneaking around at night.

Judge Kozinski is a leading conservative, appointed by President Ronald Reagan, but in his dissent he came across as a raging liberal. "There's been much talk about diversity on the bench, but there's one kind of diversity that doesn't exist," he wrote. "No truly poor people are appointed as federal judges, or as state judges for that matter." The judges in the majority, he charged, were guilty of "cultural elitism." (Read about one man's efforts to escape the surveillance state.)

The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant. There is a major battle under way in the federal and state courts over this issue, and the stakes are high. After all, if government agents can track people with secretly planted GPS devices virtually anytime they want, without having to go to a court for a warrant, we are one step closer to a classic police state — with technology taking on the role of the KGB or the East German Stasi.

Fortunately, other courts are coming to a different conclusion from the Ninth Circuit's — including the influential U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. That court ruled, also this month, that tracking for an extended period of time with GPS is an invasion of privacy that requires a warrant. The issue is likely to end up in the Supreme Court.

In these highly partisan times, GPS monitoring is a subject that has both conservatives and liberals worried. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit's pro-privacy ruling was unanimous — decided by judges appointed by Presidents Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. (Comment on this story.)

Plenty of liberals have objected to this kind of spying, but it is the conservative Chief Judge Kozinski who has done so most passionately. "1984 may have come a bit later than predicted, but it's here at last," he lamented in his dissent. And invoking Orwell's totalitarian dystopia where privacy is essentially nonexistent, he warned: "Some day, soon, we may wake up and find we're living in Oceania."

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,881 ... 50,00.html
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:40 pm UTC

What. The. Fuck.
The judges veered into offensiveness when they explained why Pineda-Moreno's driveway was not private. It was open to strangers, they said, such as delivery people and neighborhood children, who could wander across it uninvited.

Right, because when I call up my local Papa John's, and ask them to come bring some delicious Pepperoni Ambrosia to my door, I haven't invited them onto my property at all.

This is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. I hope to God that this goes up and the Supremes smack it down.

Edit: I think the real question should be: Would the gentleman have been within his rights to shoot a stranger lurking about his property at night, affixing electronic devices to automobiles? Right now, I'm leaning toward yes.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Dauric » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:47 pm UTC

... So... Obviously they're saying put your car in a garage if you have one, so we can be sure the dangerous (read: "smart") criminals will be looking to buy or rent houses with garages.

But what about fenced property? I lived in a house in Cali. that didn't have a garage but it had a fence and "No Trespassing" signs. I suppose a child could wander across the property (after all fences are just playground equipment to kids), and the UPS guy could figure out how to open the gate if he had a package to deliver, but it wasn't intended to be open to random schmuck #465392.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby JBJ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:53 pm UTC

Putting a tracking device on a person's personal property without a warrant is a clear violation. If a government agent bumps into you on a public street and stuck a GPS tracker on your pocket without a warrant, it would have been laughed out of court (I hope). There is no difference between putting a tracking device on a car in the middle of the night or slipping a device into someone's jacket pocket.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:18 pm UTC

Clearly the government should be allowed to do anything the neighborhood urchins might do. Like climb around on your roof, mess around under your car, break your windows, and steal things from you.

Yeah, no, this just means that only those rich enough to have garages or gates get the benefit of the 4th amendment. Clearly.

Hey, the lot in front of the local police station is generally open. Anyone want to go make a moving map of where all the cruisers in the city are at all times? Could be handy. "I solemnly swear I am up to no good".

(Wait, why do I have the feeling this doesn't apply to the thugs-in-blue any more than self-defense laws apply to no-knock warrants)
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Aetius » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:22 pm UTC

Legally speaking, they can't come onto your property to put the tracker on your car, but if they hit the tracker over the fence with a wiffle ball bat, they are allowed to come onto your property after it.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:23 pm UTC

But if you get to it first, that's it, you're keeping it. They can have it back when they learn better.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:24 pm UTC

Damned DEA kids GET OFF MY LAWN.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby JBJ » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:26 pm UTC

Belial wrote:But if you get to it first, that's it, you're keeping it. They can have it back when they learn better.

They can have it back when they find the weather balloon I attached it to.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Dauric » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:33 pm UTC

Next article: DEA looking to fill job openings suited for ages 5-10.

New law: Any law enforcement official who uses the rationale "A child can access it so it's a public area" shall be forced to work in a preschool until they can demonstrate that they understand just how much bullshit it is to equate where children can get to with "publicly accessible".
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Vaniver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:37 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Today, the 9th Circuit Court
Guys, remember that time I told you these judges weren't very good?

It's true.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Telchar » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:41 pm UTC

Belial wrote:(Wait, why do I have the feeling this doesn't apply to the thugs-in-blue any more than self-defense laws apply to no-knock warrants)


You mean like....90% of everything the government does?

PS: It's also interesting how people conflate detectives and investigators with cops.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:46 pm UTC

Seriously, every time I try to defend the 9th circuit. They hammerjack me.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Bhelliom » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:52 pm UTC

Seconding the idea to track all the police cars in town. Could prove handy.
While you are at it please create a smart phone app so I can tell where the cops are at a glance.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:00 pm UTC

JBJ wrote:
Belial wrote:But if you get to it first, that's it, you're keeping it. They can have it back when they learn better.

They can have it back when they find the weather balloon I attached it to.

Given that it's a GPS tracking device, that may not be as difficult as you had hoped.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby meatyochre » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:19 pm UTC

I saw this news posted on slashdot, and comments there were saying we ought to pop a gps tracker onto every cop/judge/representative's car we come across parked in a public area, then make a website broadcasting their whereabouts live. It wouldn't be illegal.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:21 pm UTC

It'd be illegal, they'd try you under stalking laws. Because double standards are fun!
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby iop » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:What. The. Fuck.
The judges veered into offensiveness when they explained why Pineda-Moreno's driveway was not private. It was open to strangers, they said, such as delivery people and neighborhood children, who could wander across it uninvited.

Right, because when I call up my local Papa John's, and ask them to come bring some delicious Pepperoni Ambrosia to my door, I haven't invited them onto my property at all.

This is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. I hope to God that this goes up and the Supremes smack it down.


Wait - Doesn't Florida have a law that you can shoot anyone who wanders across your property uninvited, as long as you feel they are posing a threat to you?
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:26 pm UTC

- Ochigo the Earth-Stomper

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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby iop » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:37 pm UTC


Thanks for the link!

In other words, the ruling suggests that the castle doctrine is incompatible with federal law (because you can't shoot government officials who legally plant a GPS device on the car in your driveway).
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Vaniver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:52 pm UTC

I am under the impression that people actually win a number of self-defense cases involving no-knock warrants. Juries are pretty good about not putting up with shit from police when it's clear that it's shit.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:12 pm UTC

While I agree that the police shouldn't be allowed to saunter up your driveway whenever they feel like it, the bit that surprised me was the sentence:

The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant.

Is the government not already free to track you by just following you around (without a warrant)? If so, why should using a GPS device to track you be any different.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:59 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:While I agree that the police shouldn't be allowed to saunter up your driveway whenever they feel like it, the bit that surprised me was the sentence:

The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant.

Is the government not already free to track you by just following you around (without a warrant)? If so, why should using a GPS device to track you be any different.

I don't believe you need to follow someone to get that GPS working. (however, making sure it's not dismantled for spare parts is a different matter)
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby The EGE » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:00 am UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:While I agree that the police shouldn't be allowed to saunter up your driveway whenever they feel like it, the bit that surprised me was the sentence:

The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant.

Is the government not already free to track you by just following you around (without a warrant)? If so, why should using a GPS device to track you be any different.


Mostly in that they can track you remotely and invisibly. No using resources sending cruisers around, no ability on your part to notice the same cars in your rear view mirror and get suspicious.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Arrian » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:57 am UTC

JBJ wrote:Putting a tracking device on a person's personal property without a warrant is a clear violation.


Actually, no it isn't. It's legal to use a tracking device to follow a person's movements so long as those movements are only tracked while they are in public places. I.e. you can use a GPS tracker on a person's car but the monitoring has to stop when they put their car in the garage. In other words, you can use a GPS device to do what you'd normally do with live surveillance. I am not a lawyer, but here's a law professor explaining it.

Orin Kerr wrote:In the 1980s, the Supreme Court decided two cases on whether the Fourth Amendment requires a warrant for the government to monitor a suspect’s location using a government-installed locating device. Both cases involved beepers, defined as “a radio transmitter, usually battery-operated, which emits periodic signals that can be picked up by a radio receiver.” The combined holding of United States v. Knotts, 460 U.S. 276 (1983), and United States v. Karo, 468 U.S. 705 (1984), was that the constitutionality of warrantless beeper surveillance depends on what information the beeper reveals. Beeper surveillance that reveals the location of the beeper in a public place does not require a warrant (Knotts); on the other hand, beeper surveillance that reveals the location of the beeper inside a home does require a warrant (Karo).


However, a recent ruling by a panel of the DC Circuit Court, United States v. Maynard, did hold that using GPS monitoring without a warrant to have been illegal when it creates a mosaic of individually legal searches to create a larger picture of someone's actions. The law professor doesn't think this decision will stand up to review, however, because it's basically the opposite of every other similar case, requires a novel legal theory to support the decision, and is very unclear about when a search is legal and when it isn't. (It's legal to use a GPS tracker until you've used "it too much," and then it becomes illegal. That really doesn't make for a very practical set of guidelines for law enforcement.)

So using GPS tracking without a warrant is pretty comfortably legal. The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of that on a couple similar cases and the district court panel that ruled against it didn't rul against warrantless tracking per se, but basically against long term or maybe large scale tracking. It sounds like this case is more about when or where police can affix a tracker to a person's car. Since things in plain site are generally held to be fair game, it seems pretty normal that the courts would allow the cops to put a tracker on your car when it's plainly visible in your driveway. I'd imagine the search would be similar to a cop looking into your car window and seeing contraband while the car is in your driveway, which I also believe is a legal search.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:06 am UTC

Arrian wrote:So using GPS tracking without a warrant is pretty comfortably legal. The Supreme Court has ruled in favor of that on a couple similar cases and the district court panel that ruled against it didn't rul against warrantless tracking per se, but basically against long term or maybe large scale tracking. It sounds like this case is more about when or where police can affix a tracker to a person's car. Since things in plain site are generally held to be fair game, it seems pretty normal that the courts would allow the cops to put a tracker on your car when it's plainly visible in your driveway. I'd imagine the search would be similar to a cop looking into your car window and seeing contraband while the car is in your driveway, which I also believe is a legal search.

There is a significant difference between tracking a car when in plain view, and planting a GPS tracker on a car in plain view, without permission, without warrent. And significant problems too: For instance, if I were to find a GPS tracker on my car, with no apparent reason for it to be there, am I allowed to remove it and dismantle it for parts, even if it is technically government property (though I don't have knowledge of that)? Not to mention that just because it is in plain view doesn't mean it is public property. You can look in, but stepping in is a different matter.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby JBJ » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:17 am UTC

Arrian wrote:
JBJ wrote:Putting a tracking device on a person's personal property without a warrant is a clear violation.

Actually, no it isn't. It's legal to use a tracking device to follow a person's movements so long as those movements are only tracked while they are in public places. I.e. you can use a GPS tracker on a person's car but the monitoring has to stop when they put their car in the garage. In other words, you can use a GPS device to do what you'd normally do with live surveillance. I am not a lawyer, but here's a law professor explaining it.

The case before the DC court that the article you linked referenced was actually recently decided. The DC court rejected the use of GPS without a warrant.

The police/FBI/whoever are putting a device on someone's personal property. It's state sanctioned vandalism, pure and simple. It's not about anyone's expectation of privacy. Nobody has an expectation of privacy in public, and there is no reason to believe that you may or may not be under surveillance. The police should not be allowed to alter a person's property without their knowledge without a warrant.

How about instead of putting a GPS on a car, the agents just hide in your trunk? It accomplishes the same thing. The GPS unit is acting as an agent of the state. It's just a lot smaller and less noticeable.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Arrian » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:55 am UTC

The courts have consistently ruled that is something is in plain sight, even if it's on private property, there isn't an expectation of privacy. Earlier this year didn't we have an article about a guy getting cited for indecent exposure while sitting nekkid in his house with the blinds open? The courts have ruled that you don't have an expectation of privacy while publicly visible in your car, and therefore the police can plant a monitoring device in your car without a warrant in order to track it when it's publicly visible. It's a natural extension, then, to allow police to plant that device when the car is publicly accessible regardless of whose property it's on.

It also sounds like the decision would exclude police from coming through a fence, or presumably going deep into a large property to plant a tracking device on something not obviously visible or directly accessible. Despite the tone of the article, this is not a particularly uncommon legal view. Also, note that this decision was made by the 9th Circuit en banc, or basically the whole circuit reviewing an earlier decision by a panel of judges.

I'm critical of government invasions of privacy, but this isn't a front I'd expect any wins on. There is a tremendous amount of case law to the effect that "if it's visible from the street, it's not private." There is some hope, in the original US v Knotts case, while the Supreme Court held that using an electronic device to track an individual was legal, wholesale tracking of large numbers of people most likely wasn't and the issue would need to be revisited if that became the case.

JBJ: Yes, a panel of the DC Court held warrantless GPS surveillance as a violation of the Fourth Amendment. But also note that decision is likely to be overturned by the entire DC Circuit, before it even reaches the Supreme Court, for various reasons. When it's 3 judges on a circuit court making the opposite finding of multiple Supreme Court decisions, smart money is betting against the 3 judges' decision standing.

What all previous decisions stated was that planting an electronic device on a car was not like hiding an agent in the trunk, it was like following the car with an unmarked police car. The DC case is the outlier. Also, this particular panel of DC judges doesn't have the best record when it comes to novel decisions standing:

Orin Kerr wrote:Incidentally, this DC Circuit panel is 2/3 of the panel that created the constitutional right to drugs that the en banc court later overturned in Abigail Alliance. The two opinions are somewhat similar in their very libertarian outlook; I wonder if they will meet the same fate of being overturned en banc.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:00 am UTC

Arrian wrote:The courts have consistently ruled that is something is in plain sight, even if it's on private property, there isn't an expectation of privacy. Earlier this year didn't we have an article about a guy getting cited for indecent exposure while sitting nekkid in his house with the blinds open? The courts have ruled that you don't have an expectation of privacy while publicly visible in your car, and therefore the police can plant a monitoring device in your car without a warrant in order to track it when it's publicly visible. It's a natural extension, then, to allow police to plant that device when the car is publicly accessible regardless of whose property it's on.


I don't see how it is a natural extension. For example, I don't see stealing a car wholesale from the driveway to be legal.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Arrian » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:39 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:I don't see how it is a natural extension. For example, I don't see stealing a car wholesale from the driveway to be legal.


Maybe because tracking movements != stealing? Maybe because adding a small electronic device neither damages nor limits the use of a person's property? The only difference in this case is when the tracking device was planted on the car. In other cases it was planted while the vehicle was on private property also, but not the owner's property and considered legal (like a parking garage.)
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:53 am UTC

Arrian wrote:Maybe because adding a small electronic device neither damages nor limits the use of a person's property?

I have issues with this (it's not just about limiting the use, it's also the fact that is uses the person's property). And if the courts said otherwise, I have issues with your court system as well.

Say for example: planting a small packet of heroin in the car. Surely it doesn't damage or limit the use of the car either?
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Arrian » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:23 am UTC

Kyrn wrote:
Arrian wrote:Maybe because adding a small electronic device neither damages nor limits the use of a person's property?

I have issues with this (it's not just about limiting the use, it's also the fact that is uses the person's property). And if the courts said otherwise, I have issues with your court system as well.

Say for example: planting a small packet of heroin in the car. Surely it doesn't damage or limit the use of the car either?


Another strawman: Planting a packet of heroin creates a false fact, planting a monitoring device simply records what actually happens and is in fact doing nothing different than a manned surveillance would do.

How about this, instead of trying to come up with analogies, try to explain why exactly this should be illegal. What constitutional right does it violate? What moral right? How is it abusive? The Supreme Court has ruled that it's not the technical means that is important, it's the information that is gathered that matters to the fourth amendment, so how do you square your dislike of GPS monitoring with the obvious legality of gathering the exact same information through manually following someone?

Personally I think warrantless GPS monitoring is a bad thing, but I can't counter the argument that there is no right to privacy in publicly visible places. I dislike GPS surveillance because it lowers the bar regarding the decision to surveil someone: Live surveillance is costly, it requires multiple trained police officers to dedicate their time to nothing else. This acts to limit surveillance to situations where the police think it is very important. In effect, the cost acts like a judge and forces the police to be mindful in employing it, they don't have to meet strict legal standards but they do have to limit it to situations where their judgment considers it warranted. That works well, it's a system that really can't be gamed because it's in the police's own interest to only follow people that are very likely to be involved in criminal activity.

When you reduce the cost of following people through the use of technology, however, the cost is much, much lower and therefore the checks against surveillance are much weaker. The danger I see is that police will start surveillance on people for lesser crimes or people who are less likely to have committed crimes.

But, simply tracking peoples' movements is against the law. The police are free to track your movements regardless of whether or not they think you have or will commit a crime. GPS devices just make it easier for them to do so, and there is no right to not be tracked unless it requires a lot of effort to track you. What you do in public is public, not protected, you simply don't have an expectation of privacy when you're driving. And remember, publicly visible doesn't mean "visible to a police officer," it means "visible to strangers." So basically, unless you're in your residence, an employees only area, or a speak easy, you're probably somewhere publicly visible. The fact that normally a police officer wouldn't easily be able to follow you somewhere without being recognized does not give you an expectation of privacy. In order to have privacy from the government, you have to expect privacy from other outsiders as well.

The only way I can think of to disallow technological monitoring like GPS without disallowing manned monitoring is to assume that it's acceptable to commit a crime unless you're seen doing it. But that's blatantly wrong.

And I don't know of any constitutional right making my property inviolate, preventing the government from touching or looking at or even adding something to my property as long as they don't damage or take the property and as long as the property is in public. Yards and driveways, whether you like it or not, are publicly visible and open access unless you erect some barrier to keep people out.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:16 am UTC

Arrian wrote:How about this, instead of trying to come up with analogies, try to explain why exactly this should be illegal. What constitutional right does it violate? What moral right? How is it abusive? The Supreme Court has ruled that it's not the technical means that is important, it's the information that is gathered that matters to the fourth amendment, so how do you square your dislike of GPS monitoring with the obvious legality of gathering the exact same information through manually following someone?

Firstly, the issue has NOTHING to do with tracking people. the issue is with the planting of the GPS device on someone else's property. Hereby I shall ignore any and all arguments regarding tracking people, because that is beside the point.

Having said that, the whole problem is about infringing on property itself. The line of questioning then is:
1) Can a government official enter my driveway without permission?
2) Can a government official plant a device onto my vehicle without permission?
3) Can a government official enter my driveway for the purposes of planting a device on my vehicle without permission?

Let me just put some possible issues:
1) If the property isn't walled, can anyone enter it without permission? Just how much restriction must there be to imply privacy if not?
2) If anyone can just walk into the driveway, can they walk all the way to the window? Plant a tiny camera there, right outside?
3) Say I find the device: am I allowed to remove, dismantle, or destroy it? If I'm not allowed, it means that they have damaged and/or limited the use of my property: it means that I cannot scrap the car, for instance.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Zamfir » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:04 am UTC

So you agree that the police can plant a GPS on a car parked in front of your house or elsewhere, but not that they can plant it on a car in a driveway?
That sounds a like a reasonable position, but hardly an important one.

The OP's title objects to the fact that the police can monitor you at all, which is a completely different question from where they can attach the device. As Arrian notes, they have already the right to track people without warrant, so there can't be some deep right against it. It might be necessary to develop good laws on the use of GPS, but you can't base those on obvious rights of privacy.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:18 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:So you agree that the police can plant a GPS on a car parked in front of your house or elsewhere, but not that they can plant it on a car in a driveway?
That sounds a like a reasonable position, but hardly an important one.

The OP's title objects to the fact that the police can monitor you at all, which is a completely different question from where they can attach the device. As Arrian notes, they have already the right to track people without warrant, so there can't be some deep right against it. It might be necessary to develop good laws on the use of GPS, but you can't base those on obvious rights of privacy.

Not really, since your car is still your private property as well. Now, if it's planted in a police car sitting outside my driveway, I've no issues with that.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Felstaff » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:30 am UTC

If I were to search underneath my car and find a GPS device attached to it, I would simply remove it and attach it to my dog. Then the police will be like "wow. He certainly likes lurching his car from place to place excitedly" and "why does he turn his car around three times before parking it for the night?"
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Zamfir » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:32 am UTC

I do not really the difference between tracking by hidden following and tracking by GPS device, except for Arrian's point that the latter might be temptingly easy. But being in principle ok with one but not the feels inconsistent to me.

I am all for rules that to control hidden following too, but in situations where we think it is appropriate, gps is just a better way to do.the same. The part where it actually touches your car seems to me of much lower relevance than the act of being tracked itself.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Kyrn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:43 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:I do not really the difference between tracking by hidden following and tracking by GPS device, except for Arrian's point that the latter might be temptingly easy. But being in principle ok with one but not the feels inconsistent to me.

I am all for rules that to control hidden following too, but in situations where we think it is appropriate, gps is just a better way to do.the same. The part where it actually touches your car seems to me of much lower relevance than the act of being tracked itself.

The difference is that my property is untouched. Tracking someone by hiddenly following is no issue, since you're in public (and they generally can't follow you into private areas, unless with permission/warrent/etc.) But to allow them onto my private property, or to use my private property, invites further slippage of privacy rights: for instance, what's the difference between planting a GPS tracker on a car, and planting a listening device on the outside of a house?
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Zamfir » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:06 pm UTC

Kyrn wrote:for instance, what's the difference between planting a GPS tracker on a car, and planting a listening device on the outside of a house?

I'd say that division is pretty clear. A listening device produces information from within the private sphere, of the kind the people inside would not expect to be publicly available. Whether the bug is physically on the inisde or outside is of no importance. Using a window laser or parabolic microphone to listen to conversations without entering the propery at all is also illegal.

Just to be clear: I am not in favour of allowing the police to collect any information they can get from the public sphere. Not at all. I don't like the idea of bugs on cars, nor of following people around without very good reasons.

I just think that the dividing lines should be based on the information the police is collecting, more than on the manner of the collection. If the police cannot track your car by GPS, they can still use traffic and security camera images to do the same. Or flying drones. Or your cell phone information.

So I think the focus should be on deciding when the police can track you in the first place, and on making sure they keep to that.
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Re: The government can now legally track you without warrant

Postby Prefanity » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:54 pm UTC

I'm fairly ignorant with regard to the various utilities a GPS tracking device might have so if this can only happen in the realm of movies staring Will Smith I apologize, but is it possible to log the speed of a traveling car at a given time? If possible, is it an unreasonable assumption that with this information, police will then be able to distribute speeding tickets to offenders in much the same way intersection cams are already utilized?
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