Taking it seriously: The zombie problem

[pheonixduprese]

The chemicals they use to clean the place wipe out a fuckton of competition for the stronger microbes, which then become immune to the chemicals and feast on the other strong microbes.

There is nothing immune to medical strength cleansers, except perhaps prions (which dont evolve) and possibly some bacterial spores (which were like that before we came along)

Antiseptic != antibiotic.

Add a "yet" after the emphasized section.

[Torvaun]

Listen to me very carefully. Being immune to bleach is like being immune to fire. It's not about poison, it's about dissolution. It is a chemical attack that will destroy cell membranes. Prions, being nothing more than protein chains, don't have cell membranes. This is okay, as long as you don't go licking every surface you see. Spores have cell walls, some of which can be tough enough to resist a small amount of bleach. Clean thoroughly, and it won't be a problem. Although, yes, the human immune system does atrophy from being in sterile environments where there aren't constantly billions of things trying to kick your ass.

[pheonixduprese]

Ok, this is true, but what about in the home scenario (switching topics here a little bit), where you simply have things that kill 99.99 percent? There's been other discussions about how this is as worthless as not cleaning at all, etc. Generally I don't think you'll have hospital-grade anti-septics on hand to destroy the zombie virus/bacteria/prion/parasite, no?

[Torvaun]

I've got a jug of bleach just down the hall. Anything that survives and can easily be identified as alive in the first place is going to survive by statistical anomaly. Maybe there's a seam in the surface that the bleach doesn't quite get into. Maybe there's a lump that's causing a tiny gap in the lee. It's just dumb luck if anything survives, it's not "killing off the weaklings so the superdiseases can multiply."

[Oregonaut]

I wonder what the ratio of bleach to water will be to neutralize the zombie juice on a metal pipe...

[Torvaun]

This could probably be determined experimentally, though not necessarily ethically, if only humans can host. I'm thinking autoclave everything as long as it's an option, and break out the bleach reserves for stuff you can't autoclave. And when I decide to bleach it, I will not be mixing with water.

[Oregonaut]

I was thinking about stretching bleach reserves, in a serious apocalyptic scenario.

[Torvaun]

More worried about water reserves, to be honest.

[Oregonaut]

I keep a stock of water tabs in my house, and in my emergency bag. I can keep myself in potable water for five years with what I have, unless the rain is also contaminated.

[Pianodog]

More worried about water reserves, to be honest.

A good reason to own a home with a well, off the town supply. I really don't know how well a "live" contaminant can push through 440 feet of earth and rock (the depth of my well) and infect the supply there. In the event of a power outage, you have the hand-pump option. I've got a small pond in my backyard to boil water from, and have marshy areas on two sides of my land; wouldn't stop the undead, but would slow them down in muck 3 feet deep. The other sides are heavy woods that would act as good noise alerts with breaking twigs and crunching leaves.

I believe it was mentioned, too, that the issue with hospitals isn't the antiseptics - those work great - but it's the antibiotics. It's clinically proven that hospitals that overuse of antibiotics leads to resistant strains, and common sense seems to say that these accumulate more in hospitals because that's where people that get them come back for treatment. Doctors should be policing themselves, refusing antibiotic treatments unless absolutely required. Some hand them out like aspirin, though, and it's a huge problem. Mayo Clinic Article. I can't say how much of it is ignorance and how much of it is kickback incentives from drug companies that makes them do this. I've even heard a story about a woman who had to have her finger amputated after a paper cut got infected - because no antibiotic would work on the infection.

So keep your tools clean - heated to sterilize if no bleach or other strong antiseptic is handy, and don't take that penicillin just because you got a sniffle. It would suck to die to a resistant staph infection on your stake sharpening pocket-knife after successfully surviving the first few waves and settling into a nice post-apocalyse lifestyle...

[Oregonaut]

I'm fatally allergic to pcn and codeine. I'm kind of forked on anti-biotics and pain killers.

[Torvaun]

Ouch. I suppose they don't hand out morphine every time they'd be giving you codeine, do they?

[Oregonaut]

They go straight for the throat on most painkillers. Morphine, codeine, tylenol-3, they avoid them. Mostly for safety's sake.

[pheonixduprese]

For the bleach conversation, you're all assuming that the zombie disease is killable by bleach. I still retain the opinion that it won't live outside the host, and that if it does it WILL be a big supermicrobe.

[Torvaun]

It's a reasonable assumption, given that bleach is lethal to approximately everything alive. Not living outside the host is what I'm hoping, and it seems to be agreed upon by most source material, but there's the question of how fast it dies outside the host. Out in the sun, with bacteria destroying UV pounding it? Not long. But in dark and damp, who knows how long plague could live in zombie blood?

Now, when you say big supermicrobe, what do you mean by that? Physically large? More like an amoeba than a bacterium or virus? Supermicrobe I assume means resistant or immune to the majority of antibiotics. But the thing about antibiotics is that you use those when bacteria are in a host already. We're assuming 100% lethality and unlethality on the disease already. Antiseptics, as mentioned, are completely a different class of product.

[pheonixduprese]

It's a reasonable assumption, given that bleach is lethal to approximately everything alive. Not living outside the host is what I'm hoping, and it seems to be agreed upon by most source material, but there's the question of how fast it dies outside the host. Out in the sun, with bacteria destroying UV pounding it? Not long. But in dark and damp, who knows how long plague could live in zombie blood?

Mm, you've got a great point... We need to run some experiments. Stand back, I'm about to try SCIENCE, which works, bitches. (Did I really... oh. Yes, I did.)

Now, when you say big supermicrobe, what do you mean by that? Physically large? More like an amoeba than a bacterium or virus? Supermicrobe I assume means resistant or immune to the majority of antibiotics.

Let's say both large and resistant, just for the hell of it. And I'm thinking along the lines of a evolved combination of bacterium, virus, and parasite. Ah, I can dream.

But the thing about antibiotics is that you use those when bacteria are in a host already. We're assuming 100% lethality and unlethality on the disease already. Antiseptics, as mentioned, are completely a different class of product.

Well, let's not say lethality, let's say infectiousness. We're not considering people that might be immune to this lovely little evil creation. And I promise you all that I will not approach a zombie with an antibiotic and say "here, lemme hook this up to ya!" So, do with this post what you will.

[Oregonaut]

If you clean your steel bar with fire, would you get all of the viriiiiiiiiiii?

[Josephine]

This is why I suggest carrying some thermite. If you have something metal that you can't get the infection out of, destroy it.

[Torvaun]

If you can't kill something with fire, you don't have enough fire.

[Telchar]

I think rabies is a good starting point for known diseases that act similar to possible zombie infections. Encephelopathy could produce it too I suppose, but would have to be limited in areas it affected.

[pheonixduprese]

Spongiform dieseases are bad.

[Oregonaut]

There are good diseases?

[SecondTalon]

The one that gives you the power to fly and laser eyes. That one's not too bad, if you can get over the loss of bowel control.

[Oregonaut]

Well, I guess it depends.

[SecondTalon]

... Well played, Clerks.

[Oregonaut]

I wonder what kind of metal I could get that would take repeated heatings up to sanitization temperature, and still be effective in hand-to-hand range.

[Torvaun]

There are steel alloys. I'm no metallurgist, but I believe iridium is used for heat-resistance in steel. Also, on the topic of good diseases, you could make a case for sickle-cell anemia. Not great, but better than malaria. Or cowpox, back when smallpox was a very real threat.

[Oregonaut]

So, get a couple of iridium tonga sticks, or maybe gauntlets/cestusss...cestusus....cesti! And I'll be in business on the hand to hand side of the house.

[Torvaun]

Remember to remove said gauntlets prior to the inferno-cleansing.

[Oregonaut]

Psh, I'm a REAL man. I stand in 3,000 degree infernos in order to COOK the sweat from my body. I eat MANwiches for breakfast. Knives for lunch. And an RPG to the face for a sensible dinner.

[Josephine]

Iridium, tungsten, and titanium. And iron, of course. That could survive anything.

[Oregonaut]

And cast-iron would be easier to come by than iridium, most likely.

[pheonixduprese]

Question: What all would you include in a bug-out bag?

[Josephine]

Question: What all would you include in a bug-out bag?

you butchered that sentence. come back and try again so we can understand you.

[pheonixduprese]

Grammar fail.

What would you include in a bug-out bag? You know, the bag that would have almost everything you need to survive when "the shit hits the fan."

Better?

[Josephine]

Much better. I'd take standard survival gear (food, water or a filter, lighter, first aid kit, radio, gps/compass, etc) plus a powerful pistol, ammo, and a dagger.

[Torvaun]

Cast iron is good for many things, but it's soft.

My bug-out bag includes a kukri, my medications (including leftovers from temporary prescriptions like Vicodin), rubbing alcohol, two water bottles, an LED flashlight, extra batteries, super glue, bandages (both adhesive bandages and gauze + wraps), nitrile gloves, a scalpel with extra blades in sterile packing, a wire saw, a locking blade pocket knife, pliers, two lighters, two books of matches, electrical tape, a magnesium bar, and a prepaid cell phone with hand crank charger. This fits in a backpack, and isn't all that uncomfortable to carry for long periods.

I'd like to get a flare gun and some flares to put in there.

[Josephine]

a kukri fits in a backpack?

[Torvaun]

Yes. Does this need pics?

[pheonixduprese]

yeah, how does that get in there?