Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:12 pm UTC

Spoiler:
So either someone impersonated Dumbledore (which would look a lot, to Luscious, as if Dumbledore told him in private that he's killed his wife, and in public then denied it), or Dumbledore killed Luscious' wife.

Both make sense in the sense of "the bad guys are much tougher". Dumbledore being the real big-bad means that the big-bad won the last battle. The big-bad impersonating Dumbledore means that he managed to take someone with only tangental support (Luscious) and turn him into a weapon aimed strait at his biggest enemy. Both are an "upgrade" over the Harry Potter standard opponents.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:34 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Dumbledore's brother is dead. I wonder why...
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:23 am UTC

Spoiler:
Spoiler: Image
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:26 am UTC

yeah, no.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Azrael001 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:30 am UTC

In subsilver it's even less believable.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:55 pm UTC

Sorry -- was thinking "this conversation is nothing but spoilers!"
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Azrael001 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:06 pm UTC

That was my first thought, but that thought was fleeting.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Sockmonkey » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:38 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I figured that Dumbledore lied and took credit for the murder so Malfoy would fear further action against his familly and be easier to keep in line.
Also I figure the whole talking to snakes thing works kind of like the sorting hat.


SNAKES ARE SENTIENT?!!
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:47 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Dumbledore as an enemy made for a Rorschach moment on my end: "Dumbledore? Cannot imagine more dangerous opponent."

He's the greatest living wizard, by far (in canon he beat the holder of the Elder Wand in a duel). But it makes sense- I would not surprise me if Yudkowsky sees mysticism as the main problem, not mustache-twirling villains or greedy racists. And in chapter 17 Dumbledore admits far more than Harry thinks he admits.

But, Dumbledore has also done things to help Harry. The father's rock is a Chekov's gun- it has to be useful somehow at some point (probably Harry detransfigures it at some point to now have a large projectile he can hurt someone with). Whether this is just playing Harry / grooming him into doing what Dumbledore wants him to do or if he's genuinely benevolent remains to be seen.

I think a lot of it depends on how Yudkowsky deals with Harry being a horcrux. If he is one, it would make sense that a smarter Voldemort, on realizing what has happened, decides that he might as well build Harry up (since he's sort of forced to be on Harry's team now), and Dumbledore would eventually realize that Harry isn't going to be a nice little sleeper agent and finish off Voldemort, causing Dumbledore to take manners into his own hands. If he isn't one... then it's harder to see what sort of game Dumbledore is playing.

But a duel between Harry and Dumbledore (or Dumbledore and Voldemort) seems inappropriate. This is rationalist fiction, and in rationalist fiction you shouldn't win by punching the other guy harder. It seems far more likely that Harry and Dumbledore will get into another debate at some point.

That does make one wonder, though, what all the different players want.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Levi » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:43 am UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:
Spoiler:
I figured that Dumbledore lied and took credit for the murder so Malfoy would fear further action against his familly and be easier to keep in line.
Also I figure the whole talking to snakes thing works kind of like the sorting hat.

SNAKES ARE SENTIENT?!!
Good stuff man, gooood stuff.


Dude, you put the most important part of the chapter outside your spoiler tag.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:41 am UTC

Levi wrote:
Sockmonkey wrote:
Spoiler:
I figured that Dumbledore lied and took credit for the murder so Malfoy would fear further action against his familly and be easier to keep in line.
Also I figure the whole talking to snakes thing works kind of like the sorting hat.

SNAKES ARE SENTIENT?!!
Good stuff man, gooood stuff.


Dude, you put the most important part of the chapter outside your spoiler tag.

Naw. If you had read HP, and got what this HPmoR character considers important, you'd know it was coming.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kewangji » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:35 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Naw. If you had read HP, and got what this HPmoR character considers important, you'd know it was coming.

I've read HP, I got what he considers important, I didn't see it coming. (and you still should've spoiled it because someone mightn't know when it's coming.)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:04 pm UTC

chapter 48 is up. Sentient plants woo.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:46 am UTC

Kewangji wrote:
Yakk wrote:Naw. If you had read HP, and got what this HPmoR character considers important, you'd know it was coming.

I've read HP, I got what he considers important, I didn't see it coming. (and you still should've spoiled it because someone mightn't know when it's coming.)

Wrong pronoun. I'm not the you in question. :)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kewangji » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:27 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Wrong pronoun. I'm not the you in question. :)

I feel stupid now. I don't get it. What?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:05 am UTC

Side discussion in spoiler:
Spoiler:
Repeating what I said with bolded emphasis:

Kewangji wrote:
Yakk wrote:Naw. If you had read HP, and got what this HPmoR character considers important, you'd know it was coming.

I've read HP, I got what he considers important, I didn't see it coming. (and you still should've spoiled it because someone mightn't know when it's coming.)

Wrong pronoun. I'm not the you in question. :)

Comment: Bolded "you". In response to my comment defending a third party, you said "you still should've spoilered it". It is conventional to use the pronoun "you" to refer to the person you are quoting -- and as it was not I who failed to spoiler it, "you" in this case was incorrect. "One", or "he/she" or the posters name would have been more right.

I was just making light of the possible misunderstanding or miscommunication (I couldn't tell which). The wrong pronoun was "you", as it implied you where addressing me, then implied I failed to spoiler the comment. So I was glib and terse, and miscommunication continued!

Sorry for the pediantry -- it was intended as a light joking aside.


On topic, a new chapter:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/49/ ... ationality
Hmm. I thought he'd skipped that element?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Fri Oct 08, 2010 6:59 am UTC

Good chapter, but I see a small problem:
Spoiler:
Quirrelmort said that regular snake animagi couldn't speak parseltongue. So doesn't that instantly reveal him as voldemort?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:50 pm UTC

nbonaparte wrote:Good chapter, but I see a small problem:
Spoiler:
Quirrelmort said that regular snake animagi couldn't speak parseltongue. So doesn't that instantly reveal him as voldemort?

Spoiler:
He states in the chapter that snake-animagi language is different than parseltongue, but implies that they can still speak to parseltongues. In short, Harry can speak to snake-animagi, and snake-animagi can speak to him, without the snake-animagi being able to speak parseltongue. He's careful to never admit he can speak it (with good reason).

And even if he's lying, he extracted a promise out of Harry not to talk about it. And as a relatively obscure branch of magic (snake-animagi interaction with parseltongue), there won't be definitive evidence one way or the other elsewhere probably...
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kewangji » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:27 am UTC

Yakk wrote:Explanations

Ohhh. I apologize, that's my bad.

Spoiler:
The latest chapter (49) made me think of unbreakable vows. :O
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Levi » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

Kewangji wrote:
Spoiler:
The latest chapter (49) made me think of unbreakable vows. :O

Spoiler:
I guess he didn't think it was quite that important.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kolko » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:35 am UTC

Levi wrote:
Kewangji wrote:
Spoiler:
The latest chapter (49) made me think of unbreakable vows. :O

Spoiler:
I guess he didn't think it was quite that important.

Spoiler:
Or Unbreakable Vows aren't quite as unbreakable in this universe as their name might imply.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Levi » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:59 pm UTC

Kolko wrote:
Levi wrote:
Kewangji wrote:
Spoiler:
The latest chapter (49) made me think of unbreakable vows. :O

Spoiler:
I guess he didn't think it was quite that important.

Spoiler:
Or Unbreakable Vows aren't quite as unbreakable in this universe as their name might imply.

Spoiler:
I just looked up unbreakable vows. They require a third person, so maybe that's why.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:07 pm UTC

Levi wrote:
Kolko wrote:
Levi wrote:
Kewangji wrote:
Spoiler:
The latest chapter (49) made me think of unbreakable vows. :O

Spoiler:
I guess he didn't think it was quite that important.

Spoiler:
Or Unbreakable Vows aren't quite as unbreakable in this universe as their name might imply.

Spoiler:
I just looked up unbreakable vows. They require a third person, so maybe that's why.

Spoiler:
technically, there are 3 people here.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Levi » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:08 pm UTC

Spoiler:
According to what I read about it, the third person taps the clasped hands of the vowers with his wand. So if Voldy could control one arm and Quirrell the other, I guess it might be possible.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby SANTARII » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:57 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Harry hasn't actually communicated with a snake yet, he has head a message from the sorting hat in parsletongue, a message from Draco's Patronus and he has talked to Quirrel in snake form.
Insert witty comment.

Such a cliché.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:02 am UTC

New chapter, and it's bringing some side characters nicely into the forefront.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kewangji » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:50 pm UTC

So, I just had an idea, and it's almost definitely been thought of before, but I couldn't find it in this thread:
Spoiler:
is Harry's father's rock the philosopher's stone? No... that'd be stupid, wouldn't it?


I liked the new chapter. Can definitely sympathize with Hermione, though I do think Harry taught that girl a good lesson. Even if I can't imagine that actually happening in the real world, to real people.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:51 pm UTC

Kewangji wrote:So, I just had an idea, and it's almost definitely been thought of before, but I couldn't find it in this thread:
Spoiler:
is Harry's father's rock the philosopher's stone? No... that'd be stupid, wouldn't it?


Spoiler:
the people in the tvtropes thread have discussed it. It seems like it could be possible, although I'm not sure it's very secure like that. Assuming Dumbledore's keeping up the transfiguration, what if he dies and the stone is just sitting there?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:21 am UTC

I did not see that coming (chapter 51).
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby OmenPigeon » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:01 pm UTC

nbonaparte wrote:I did not see that coming (chapter 51).

Spoiler:
I'd kind of half-guessed it. It makes narrative sense if you keep in mind Eliezer's First Law of Fanfiction: " every change which strengthens the protagonists requires a corresponding worsening of their challengess. Or in plainer language: You can't make Frodo a Jedi without giving Sauron the Death Star." Sirius was one of Harry's best allies in normal canon; making him actually evil was one of the ways to worsen the challenges.

It also makes ironic sense if you consider how Eliezer likes playing with our expectations of the story based on what we know from the original books, and what he likes to do regarding who and what we consider bad and evil. Bellatrix, in Rowling's books, was always utterly, irredeemably evil. Using her to talk about justice and guilt and all those things is exactly the sort of inversion of canon that MoR is full of.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:22 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Why do we know that Sirius was evil, again?

Bellatrix could have been this same being in the original books, but nobody would have noticed...
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kewangji » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:18 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Why do we know that Sirius was evil, again?

Bellatrix could have been this same being in the original books, but nobody would have noticed...

Spoiler:
It's explained earlier somewhere. He was gay!

...

...

Terrible jokes, word-twisting and other bad things aside. I like the new chapter. Things are happening. Smooth genre shift while keeping the same style.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby OmenPigeon » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:12 am UTC

Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Why do we know that Sirius was evil, again?

Bellatrix could have been this same being in the original books, but nobody would have noticed...

Spoiler:
I don't recall, exactly, but I thought that it was either stated or implied in an earlier chapter that Sirius was actually evil. At the very least the episode with Peter Pettigrew went down differently; we know that he isn't the Weasely rat (since that rat died in "the greatest pet story of all time").
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:25 am UTC

OmenPigeon wrote:
Yakk wrote:
Spoiler:
Why do we know that Sirius was evil, again?

Bellatrix could have been this same being in the original books, but nobody would have noticed...

Spoiler:
I don't recall, exactly, but I thought that it was either stated or implied in an earlier chapter that Sirius was actually evil. At the very least the episode with Peter Pettigrew went down differently; we know that he isn't the Weasely rat (since that rat died in "the greatest pet story of all time").

Spoiler:
Black was implied to be evil in the standard Harry Potter continuity until he wasn't.

Don't believe what people in novels tell you. Listen to the voices in your head instead!
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:57 pm UTC

A few new episodes have shown up.

Spoiler:
So, when did Harry notice that touching his teacher caused pain? And why isn't he being really weirded out by it again?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:17 pm UTC

I'd really like to read this, but sitting in front of my computer and reading 700 pages just doesn't appeal. (Is that really the length of the PDF? 8.5x11 pages, single-spaced?)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:39 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:I'd really like to read this, but sitting in front of my computer and reading 700 pages just doesn't appeal. (Is that really the length of the PDF? 8.5x11 pages, single-spaced?)

The pages look like they are formatted in paperback book format, with large print and lots of white space.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:11 pm UTC

How odd. What do you think the most efficient way to get something like that printed is?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:26 pm UTC

2 up, double sided? 4 up might even be viable, but might be too small.

At 900-odd pages and 50-odd chapters, it is an average of 18 pages/chapter. At 4-up double-sided, 4 chapters would take 9 sheets of paper (plus ~0.5 due to part-pages not being printable): little enough that you could carry it around with you and read it in a day.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby handiangel » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:36 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:I'd really like to read this, but sitting in front of my computer and reading 700 pages just doesn't appeal. (Is that really the length of the PDF? 8.5x11 pages, single-spaced?)


If you have an e-reader of some description you could make an ePub for easier reading?
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