Dune Game Over! Atreides/Fremen Victory!

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:40 am UTC

I don't really think that the Fremen and Atrendis are likely to be allied per-say. A few people may have overlapping goals, or they maybe be able to win together, but the same might be said of other groups.

I wouldn't be surprised if instead of goals like 'Be the only faction left" some groups had goals like "Overthrow the Harkonan" "overthrow the Atrendis" "overthrow the emporer." "Be the controllers of Arrakis" etc, and that some groups could be set up so that they could win with another, such as the Atrendis and the Fremen, or the Emperor and the Harkonan, or the Harkonan and the Fremen if they could agree not to attack each other, or the Fremen and the Emperor. Etc.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:02 am UTC

Flying_Cookie wrote:I don't really think that the Fremen and Atrendis are likely to be allied per-say. A few people may have overlapping goals, or they maybe be able to win together, but the same might be said of other groups.

I wouldn't be surprised if instead of goals like 'Be the only faction left" some groups had goals like "Overthrow the Harkonan" "overthrow the Atrendis" "overthrow the emporer." "Be the controllers of Arrakis" etc, and that some groups could be set up so that they could win with another, such as the Atrendis and the Fremen, or the Emperor and the Harkonan, or the Harkonan and the Fremen if they could agree not to attack each other, or the Fremen and the Emperor. Etc.


Vote: F_C


Suggesting the Harkonnens and the Fremen could ever work together. The Harkonnens wholesale slaughter Fremen even unto the children. The Fremen routinely ambush and kill anyone who works for the Harkonnens, even if they are unarmed and uninvolved in the conflict. The Fremen-Harkonnen conflict is so central to both groups that to believe they could possibly work together in the game without liberties being taken to the point of things being unrecognizable as Dune is ludicrous. This appears to be planting seeds later for some sort of false-claim (though what I can't imagine).
We figure out what all this means, then do something large and violent

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:09 am UTC

That'd would be the most amazing false claim I'd ever seen.
As far as I can remember though, the Harkonnen only really intentionally attacked the Fremen AFTER they took control again, and some shit started going down. (I feel like the Fremen started it, but I don't recall). Since this is set to take place at the halfway point (I'm think right after the Atrendis get smashed badly) it would be feasible that they could not be fighting with each other, if the fighting never started.

My idea wasn't that they would be allies, but that they wouldn't have to kill each other to have their own victories. Which is a difference.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:59 am UTC

Flying_Cookie wrote:That'd would be the most amazing false claim I'd ever seen.
As far as I can remember though, the Harkonnen only really intentionally attacked the Fremen AFTER they took control again, and some shit started going down. (I feel like the Fremen started it, but I don't recall). Since this is set to take place at the halfway point (I'm think right after the Atrendis get smashed badly) it would be feasible that they could not be fighting with each other, if the fighting never started.

My idea wasn't that they would be allies, but that they wouldn't have to kill each other to have their own victories. Which is a difference.


I just started rereading it, and as the Atreides are getting ready to go to Arrakis, Leto tells Paul about how the Harkonnens hunted the Fremen for sport. Unless that doesn't count as fighting?
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:16 am UTC

Cycoden and turret have not posted since the game began. Modprods have been sent. They have 48 hours to respond or face replacement/modkill.

PhoenixEnigma, Lataro, greenlover and mavketl have not posted since Nov 4 AEST. Please increase activity.

If gameplay does not increase in the next 24 hours, a time limit will be implemented.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:27 am UTC

That's a little harsh MOD. Most games die down over the weekend.

I understand what both F_C and BXM are saying, but that vote is a little OTT in my books, but as this is D1 and we have little to go on, I'm not going to crircise it too much.

Regarding the who is what, I think that the characters that we have available in this game, are likely to come from the first half of the book, but the overall Town/Scum alignment, probably comes from the books in total, hence why I would put the Atriedes and Fremen 'together' in some fashion and probably as Town.

In the meantime, I'm going to do a MoA and

Vote: Mavketl
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby VectorZero » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:54 am UTC

BigNose wrote:That's a little harsh MOD. Most games die down over the weekend.
Which is no excuse for the two people yet to post at all.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby cycoden » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:04 am UTC

Hi everyone. Apologies for my late arrival.

I am familiar with the basic tenets of Dune, however my knowledge comes from the Dune game, my splintered recollection of the Dune movie which I watched when I was 12 and what I've read in the Dune wiki.

mavketl wrote:Definitely good: All Atreides except for Yueh. The Fremen.
Probably good: Bene Gesserit
Probably independent: CHOAM.
Could go either way, but probably bad: House Corrino
Definitely bad: Harkonnen
My initial thoughts were leaning towards each House being its own faction with a kill, although House Atridies would obviously be considered the 'good' faction.

I'm still pondering how the Emporer would fit into the setup though.

Adacore wrote:Also, it occurs to me we should get this out of the way early: is there any individual or faction in the flavour that has any kind of recruitment ability? If there's the possibility of a cult, we want to know about it now, rather than the standard theme-game thing of not realising it exists until about Day 4...
I am not familiar enough with the flavour to hypothesise on the existance of the cult. However, in previous games, I have, as a scum player, merrily raised suspicion about a non-existent cult to keep the town players running scared.

greenlover wrote:So, in other words, we really cannot generalize the different groups in this game as either towny or scummy. Though the Baron is probably scum, other members of House Harkonnen may have towny bents, and, though the Duke is probably towny, some of his house (the doctor, maybe?) may very well have summy bents. Thus, who the scum/town are is going to be more determined on a individual level rather than a house/group level. From that, I think we can deduce several things.
I'm not so sure about this - mostly it would make the game rather complicated for the mod. But VZ might enjoy that sort of masochistic moderator management...

BigNose wrote:Is it too early to start scum-hunting, or do we need 2 more pages of roles-spec analysis before the 'serious' stuff starts? :?

Mavketl wrote:BigNose: feel free to start scumhunting!

Not A Raptor wrote:Mav: Getting itchy for a lynch target?
I find it slightly odd that NaR goes after Mav rather than BigNose (although NaRs comment strikes me as more playful than srs bsns).

krong wrote:I got a minor ping from Adacore and Mavketl for their encouraging BigNose to scumhunt. It's not that BigNose shouldn't be scumhunting -- it's that we all should be as soon as we see something. It was very polite, in a "please, you first" sort of way, but it looks like they're hanging back a bit, especially since mister k had already made the few points contained in their two posts.
I'm more suspicious of bignose - talking about scumhunting without actually doing any is a scumtell.

That said, you redeemed yourself in your next post.

Brooklynxman wrote:
Flying_Cookie wrote:I don't really think that the Fremen and Atrendis are likely to be allied per-say. A few people may have overlapping goals, or they maybe be able to win together, but the same might be said of other groups.

I wouldn't be surprised if instead of goals like 'Be the only faction left" some groups had goals like "Overthrow the Harkonan" "overthrow the Atrendis" "overthrow the emporer." "Be the controllers of Arrakis" etc, and that some groups could be set up so that they could win with another, such as the Atrendis and the Fremen, or the Emperor and the Harkonan, or the Harkonan and the Fremen if they could agree not to attack each other, or the Fremen and the Emperor. Etc.


Vote: F_C


Suggesting the Harkonnens and the Fremen could ever work together. The Harkonnens wholesale slaughter Fremen even unto the children. The Fremen routinely ambush and kill anyone who works for the Harkonnens, even if they are unarmed and uninvolved in the conflict. The Fremen-Harkonnen conflict is so central to both groups that to believe they could possibly work together in the game without liberties being taken to the point of things being unrecognizable as Dune is ludicrous. This appears to be planting seeds later for some sort of false-claim (though what I can't imagine).
Flying_Cookie wrote:That'd would be the most amazing false claim I'd ever seen.
As far as I can remember though, the Harkonnen only really intentionally attacked the Fremen AFTER they took control again, and some shit started going down. (I feel like the Fremen started it, but I don't recall). Since this is set to take place at the halfway point (I'm think right after the Atrendis get smashed badly) it would be feasible that they could not be fighting with each other, if the fighting never started.

My idea wasn't that they would be allies, but that they wouldn't have to kill each other to have their own victories. Which is a difference.

At first, I thought that FC was just speaking in general (ie: not considering which factions he listed as examples). However, I don't really buy his subsequent justification - even I know that the harkonnen are evil and killed fremen as sport.

So I am probably most suspicious of FC, and to a lesser extent BigNose.
VectorZero wrote:SEXUAL INTERCOURSE DISGUSTS ME!
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:06 am UTC

you know, looking through, Bignose complains about scum hunting, yet hasn't, you know, done any yet. Admittedly I'm not seeing many tells- silknors reaching around for who town is seems a little suspicious to me, but its maybe too obvious for scuum.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby cycoden » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:07 am UTC

EBWOP: I was refering to BigNose, not Krong with regards to redeeming himself.
VectorZero wrote:SEXUAL INTERCOURSE DISGUSTS ME!
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:37 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:I just started rereading it, and as the Atreides are getting ready to go to Arrakis, Leto tells Paul about how the Harkonnens hunted the Fremen for sport. Unless that doesn't count as fighting?

I bow to your superior knowledge of the history of Fremen/Harkonnen relationships. With this new information, the likely hood of them having win conditions that are not mutually exclusive does seem quite unlikely.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:40 am UTC

BigNose wrote:That's a little harsh MOD. Most games die down over the weekend.

Remember BigNose, Lurk is the game killer. Lurk is the little death that brings modkill obliteration.


Also. What is it with the Mav votes? Unless I'm just stupid at this time of night, I haven't seen any justification for it...
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:48 am UTC

I have slogged through the four pages again. Here are my notes, organized by player:

Spoiler:
FIRST POST:
-----------
House Harkonnen wants to control CHOAM, secretly backed by the Padishah Emporer
Atreides have accepted fiefdom of Arrakis, anticipating treachery from Harkonnens
Atreides have been decimated and scattered after attack by the Emporer's troops
Harkonnens currently in control.
Fremen are resisting occupation, some Atreides are hidden among them.

DAY BEGIN POST:
---------------
Rumors - Duke Leto alive?
Fremen seeking alliance?
Makvetl is Lady Jessica?
Facts - de Vries the mentat reports to Baron Harkonnen
Duke's body and family are not recovered.
Atreides survivors in desert, being watched.
Ship departs from Kaitain with cargo (spice?).


Adacore:
1) Flavor challenged. Suggests 4-6 scum, a few indies. Additional win conditions will make interpreting player actions more difficult. Groups of aligned characters may be in conflict due to secondary win condition.
2) Raises specter of recruitment.
3) Probably one generic win condition and one specific.
4) Spec is there to help us scumhunt.
5) Admits being conservative in scumhunting at the moment. He wants to understand the setup (now convinced that he is a "good guy"). Pings from Makvetl, but they are very minor. Weiyaoli spoke about a possible cult in the way a cult leader would. What powers do the bad guys have?
6) If two wins are possible, then go for the pro-town win.

Lataro:
1) Flavor challenged.
2) Vote for Makvetl (out of the blue). There seem to be a lot of factions.

Makvetl:
1) four factions: CHOAM, Harkonnen, Corrino, Atreides. Also: Bene Gesserit and Fremen. Paul is a special case. Atreides and Fremen are definitely "good", Harkonnen are definitely bad.
2) Harkonnen were bad due to murder, torture and cruelty. There might be good characters in a scummy faction or vice versa.
3) Some people may have extra info. There are probably masons. There are probably cops. Why do win conditions have to conflict?
4) Says the BG seem to be very pro-Paul. Quotes opening flavor to say that the Duke is alive (but not flavor to say that she is Jessica…)
5) Spec and scumhunt aren't two separate phases.
6) Answer to snarky comment.
7) Felt that BigNose was asking others to do the work for him. Ignores Meta-Vote. Promises analysis.

misterk:
1) Setup is actually simple. Though second motivations add to cross purposes. The Harkonnens aren't so bad, just not the protagonists.
2) Can't place a cult in the flavor.
3) We should seek scumtells in the spec.
4) How do factions affect play? We need to kill the Harkonnens, who are going to act like normal mafia.
5) comment on English grammar.
6) We should choose our wins based on game theory and really try for two wins. That said, pro-town wins are better, as they make your lynching less likely. Edit: sometimes it's pro-town to get lynched.
7) Mentions that BigNose hasn't done much scumhunting yet. Silknor seems a little suspicious, but perhaps too obvious for scum.

DarkLoink:
1) Many will not quite be scum/town. Expects protagonist to be "town". Politics will be important.
2) Speculation about win conditions. Some people might want two factions to win, some have a faction and some extra condition, some have only non-faction conditions. We should watch Mavketl. Promises analysis.
3) Sees this more as a players vs. players game than factions. Compares it to Death Note. There may be still town-like groups and scum-like groups.

mpolo:
1) Check in after vacation.
2) Agrees with general speculation direction. Cult is unlikely from flavor.
3) Agrees on need for Harkonnen hunt.
4) Win condition is function of allegience means that secondary goals are the same as somebody else's primary goal. That makes Harkonnen supporters also dangerous.
5) One of my wins can't really be worked towards -- I can just hope at the moment.
6) It is the moment for scumhunting.
7) Running out of leads. Promises analysis.

Greenlover:
1) Agrees with Makvetl's towny scum and scummy town distinction. Possibly no true scum group, but specific roles in other factions who are "bad". Could be a free for all. Could be normal mafia. Could be multiple scum factions. Most likely is a free for all or multiple scum factions.
2) Asks what will be revealed on death.
3) Questions Lataro's random/meta-Vote.

b.i.o:
1) CHOAM is independent. Harkonnen is scum. Corrino has a scummy emporer and Sarduakar, but Princess Irulan is likely town-ish. Leto is probably dead, if Yueh is alive, he's probably trying to assassinate the Baron. Lady Jessica leans Atreides over BG. Several important Fremen could be around: Kynes, Chani, Stilgar, others. BG are likely Corrino supporters, except for Jessica. Mother Mohiam is a probably character and definitely Corrino aligned. Smugglers and spacers are also possibilities. Rolelist produced.
2) Probably no cult.

BigNose:
1) Two wins involves a lot of luck. Asks mods about cult. Worried about conflicting win conditions.
2) Can we start scumhunting?
3) Read DUNE many years ago, still shaky on flavor. Could a sandworm be a jester?
4) Scumhunt comment was an act of presence, he has no deep flavor knowledge. There may be 2 twon factions. Probably 4 scum, 1 SK. Watch flavor for signs of cults, number of NKs. Speculation of which factions are scum is ultimately irrelevant at this stage. Takes umbrage at English denegration.
5) Various town factions really reduces down to one town. Please stop speculating about flavor and start looking for scum.
6) Finds Brook's vote a bit extreme, but lets it ride. Thinks that alignments are likely based on the whole book, even though the characters are from the first half. Votes Mavketl.

weiyaoli:
1) Worried about cult, but roleclaim warning could be for lynchers and the like. Thinks cult is very likely.
2) What is cutoff for flavor? Who should be alive?
3) This game should essentially default to hunting Harkonnens.

NaR:
1) Only cult in book is Paul and co. Probably no cult.
2) Snarky comment to Mav.
3) Does Silknor have a non-towny role?

Brooklynxman:
1) Cult is unlikely, Paul really joined the Fremen. Possibly recruiting masons, though.
2) Harkonnens are Nazi-like, Corrinos seek power, Atreides are generally good but fallible. BG are likely seeking to keep players alive. Guild wants spice. Fremen only care about Arrakis, but probably side with Atreides.
3) Fluff. Walks without rhythm.
4) Grammar fix.
5) Probably no cult.
6) Don't pull an ahippo.
7) Cares about double wins.
8) Votes F_C for the suggestion that Harkonnens and Fremen could ever ally. Sees this post as a setup for a false-claim later.
9) Quotes book to show that from the beginning, Harkonnens and Fremen are at each other's throats.

ameretrife:
1) Cult is unlikely. The win conditions are probably not mutually exclusive, as it is possible to get 2 wins. Is Harkonnen the Mafia?
2) Comment on difficulty of English. No faction is purely good, but Harkonnens are the most evil.
3) Says she does not support two factions, but has a second win condition that is somewhat individualized. Hers looks impossible.
4) Has finished reading the book.
5) Only Dr Ug cares about double wins.
6) Jokes that Harkonnens should feel free to show themselves. Running out of leads.

Dr Ug:
1) Silly spec based on the video game. Thinks of the houses as less Bad/Good than factions fighting among one another (hasn't read the book).
2) Probably no sandworms.
3) Questions calling one win condition secondary. Each counts as one win.
4) Likes double wins.

Krong:
1) Cult seems unlikely. Massclaim is bad because of the possibility of characters being kill targets. Sandworm info. If they exist, they could kill, but nobody would want to kill them.
2) Sandworms are probably only a mechanic, not characters.
3) Second win condition is making people hang back. Ping from Adacore and Makvetl for their encouragement to BN to scumhunt. It seemed to be a "you first" type of post.
4) Ping mentioned above is very minor. Setup is more complicated than BigNose thinks. We have to worry about traitors as well..
5) Objects to Silknor's suspicions to a degree. It is possible to think of the Harkonnens as some sort of majority, but calling Atreides and Fremen a scum minority ignores the idea that there is a night-kill, and this is very out of flavor for both groups. This seems to imply that Silknor is not Atreides/Fremen and is trying to fish for information.

Flying_Cookie:
1) Speculates on the form of the role PMs.
2) Knows plot, but weak on characters.
3) Fremen and Atreides are probably not allied. Some goals will overlap. There are probably more unusual goals -- overthrow the emporer, overthrow Harkonnen, control Arrakis. Some factions may end up allying to achieve their goals.
4) Clarifies that she's not suggesting that Harkonnen and Fremen are allies, but they might be able to ignore each other for both to win.
5) Concedes that the Harkonnen and Fremen win conditions are probably mutually exclusive. Doesn't understand the Mavketl votes.

Silknor:
1) BG are not so pro-Paul as having goals that happen to coincide. Fremen likely side with Paul, are against Guild. BG wants to control spice, they're not just doctors. No clear cult, as there is no forced conversion. BG have the Voice. Rolelist.
2) Don't assume a simple town against 1-2 mafia teams. Maybe there's no "town" per se.
3) Has a mostly townish win condition, but no indication of being a majority, hence the speculation in 2. Objects to BigNose's speculation on factions -- Fremen have a different goal than Atreides. Scumhunt is always the right move. But Rolespec and scumhunt are actually not distinct from one another.
4) Less fishing than trying to keep things going. Wouldn't have a majority town faction if he had been mod.

PhoenixEnigma:
1) Arrives late. Reading.

Cycoden:
1) Arrives even later. Initial thoughts were that each House was a faction with its own kill. If there is no cult, the people beating on the cult drum may well be scum. Thinks greenlover's theories are too complicated, but VZ might like that kind of thing. NaR's playful jab at Makvetl is noted. Suspicious of BigNose for wanting to scumhunt without actually doing so. Was willing to accept F_C's post 3 as being in general, but the later justification that Harkonnens and Fremen really could be friends is pinging. Most suspicion on FC.


First comments --

Really inactive players: turret, PhoenixEnigma

Relatively inactive players: Lataro, DarkLoink, Greenlover, b.i.o, weiyaoli, NotARaptor

"Active lurkers": myself (hopefully only until now), Brook (at least until his attack on F_C), ameretrifle, Dr Ug (on the cusp with "relatively inactive")

Several people have promised analysis: Mavketl, DarkLoink, myself. This is the first of these to materialize.

I would like to see BigNose start doing some real scum hunting.

Krong's suggestion that Silknor is not Atreides/Fremen, but probably not complete scum is fairly interesting. This also seems to mesh with Silknor's own statement -- he has a townish win condition, but no indication of being a majority.

F_C's gaffe with the Harkonnens and Fremen seemed totally innocent in the first post, but then he wanted to push it as a real possibility. Then he dropped it like a hot potato. It just felt like scum having been caught in a misstatement and trying to distance himself as quickly as possible. (Question: What is the right pronoun for Flying_Cookie?)

FoS: Flying_Cookie

I think that the various factions are all fairly small at present. There may be mechanisms for allying and such -- Paul and the Fremen, for instance. I also agree with F_C that some of the goals are probably less straightforward than "eliminate another faction(s)". The Fremen are probably only really concerned with Arrakis itself, that it not be exploited, etc. Where the Atreides seem to be interested in revenge against the Harkonnens and regaining control of the planet -- their views on spice are more compatible with the Fremen than the Harkonnen view, so they might be able to ally. The Emporer is mostly concerned about staying in power. BG and Guild are interested in the spice flow. Harkonnen probably want a monopoly on spice by eliminating all other factions (i.e. scum). But that's guessing from a very small amount of information that is in my power.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby b.i.o » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:48 pm UTC

Hm. Upon reflection, it seems simplistic to me to be saying that one faction is allied with another or something in this game. While there are obvious places where factions overlap, I don't think any of the factions would end up being entirely allied. I think it's potentially more useful to talk in terms of potential win conditions. I haven't listed any 'Keep $important_person alive' conditions, because I think those apply too generally to be useful.

Atreides
-Kill everyone from House Harkonnen
-Control Arrakis
Fremen
-Control Arrakis
-Find Paul
-Kill everyone from House Harkonnen (or, possibly, just Raban)
Harkonnen
-Kill everyone from House Atreides (Duke Leto especially?)
-Control Arrakis
CHOAM
-Have someone non-Fremen in control of Arrakis
Corrino
-Have House Harkonnen or Corrino in control of Arrakis
Bene Gesserit
-Find the Kwisatz Haderach (I'm not terribly sure on this, actually. The Bene Gesserit want to find the Kwisatz Haderach, but they also want to control him, so...)
Spacing Guild
-Keep the spice flowing (so, basically the same as CHOAM I think)
Smugglers
-Stay alive? (again, not really sure, and not sure if they're a faction at all)

It seems to me that the 'control Arrakis' conditions are basically the equivalent of 'have a majority in the game'. I think that the Fremen's 'control Arrakis' and the Atreides 'control Arrakis' are likely to be *roughly* equivalent (that is, not necessarily mutually exclusive), because there was the beginnings of a loose alliance early on when the Atreides controlled Arrakis, and later on in the book most of the Atreides (excluding just Thufir Hawat) are more directly allied with the Fremen anyway.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby greenlover » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:34 pm UTC

Okay, I am starting to see myself poping up on several lists of inactive players. Sorry for not being more active; I have been gone for the last few days.

From all appearances, we really need to start doing some scum hunting, as no-lynches are never good for town (I think). On that note, two people have been pinging my scum radar:

First, F_C. Honestly, I saw little scumminess about his original suggestion that certain factions don't have to destroy all other factions; and, as such, can win together. However, his later justification really rubbed me the wrong way. It seems pretty straight forward - even to someone as favor challenged as me - that the Harkonnen's are pretty darn scummy. Thus, It could be that he was trying to blur the line between scummy and towny: which who definitely be scummy behavior in my book. However, it is perfectly possible that he was just not very familiar with the flavor.

Scondly, I am getting a minor ping from Silknor, but I doubt that is based off of anything but a hunch.

More later, when I have read through the thread a bit more throughly.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:11 pm UTC

Hey, things are happening finally!

I'd guess this is just parroting what everyone else is saying, but F_C and BigNose aren't looking great right now. F_C for arguing Harkonnen could be helpful to Fremen, and BigNose for continuing to ask for scumhunting without providing any thoughts on players himself. (Seeing his posts since I got my "minor ping" off Adacore and Mav put that into a new light.) BigNose also argued for a fairly simplistic setup, which isn't necessarily a scumtell, but certainly wasn't that helpful given the discussion up to that point.

I'd been willing to let this go as typical BigNose oddness until this:
BigNose wrote:I understand what both F_C and BXM are saying, but that vote is a little OTT in my books, but as this is D1 and we have little to go on, I'm not going to crircise it too much.
...
In the meantime, I'm going to do a MoA and

Vote: Mavketl

Alright, this is the second vote on Mav now with jokey meta-explanations and no other reasoning. And in this very post, he's casting doubt on BXM's vote, saying it was too much given the limited evidence against F_C. Err... yeah. Don't point out the sliver in another player's vote when you've got a log in your own.

Vote: BigNose

I'll unvote if you can explain to me what doing a MoA is and why it's something we should be doing with a week's worth of posting on the table. And on a related note, it would be nice if Lataro could show up and do something other than meta-vote, as well.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:55 pm UTC

OK, the reason I haved called for scum hunting and not done any myself, is because I don't know the flavour with anything but gloss, so if people are talking bolox, I haven't a clue, ergo I can't scum hunt on nothing.

What I have been trying to do, is to move the game from flavour discussion to mafia discussion, which seems to be coming around now - good.

MOD: My comment was about those who hadn't posted since 4th Nov, not those that hadn't posted at all.

The MoA reference, is my and MoA's resolution that we h8 lurkers, so get rid of them.

My vote on Mavketl is just simply a choice of the other 3 lurkers, as to non-posters which the MOD will sort out.
Why Mavketl instead of 1 of the other 2? Easy, he shouldn't win at Doctored, even though he had virtually nothing to do.

But atleast it's mafia discussion now, not Dune!
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:39 pm UTC

Sorry for the wait, I was waiting to post until I had finished my promised analysis. I've been busy, and giving priority to my turbo games. Here goes.


Player-by-player:
(Disclaimer: I started this like two days ago, so I might have excluded some people's last post. Also, I haven't read mpolo's analysis post as to not influence my own results.)

Spoiler:
Silknor: Starts off with elaborate rolespec. Cautions against considering the Bene Gesserit pro-Atreides/townie. Probably no cult. Rolelist with possible alignments. He thinks there is probably no traditional 'town', and no general group that has a majority.
Silknor wrote:The general form of one of my win conditions is you win when all the X are dead.
We should probably keep that in mind for future reference. Has an (in my opinion) excellent explanation about rolespec and scumhunting.
Overall, lots of analysis, leaning neutral/townie on him so far.

Adacore: Flavour-challenged, but doesn't dwell on it. Asks about the possibility of a cult. Some general insights about mechanisms and win conditions. Defends rolespeccing as worthwile. Suspicious of weiyaoli (reaction to cult possibility) and me (gut feeling). Urges players to prioritize their more town-leaning win condition.
Active, leaning town.

ameretrifle: Lots of posts, not a whole lot of content. Harkonnen are probably mafia if we have one, and some speculation on the win conditions.

Lataro: Emphasizes that he doesn't know the flavour, meta-vote, "this should be interesting". More please.

greenlover: We should not generalize, many different factions and win conditions. Multiple scum, or no traditional town/scum at all. Flavour-challenged, asks for clarification on Lataro's vote. Neutral/town.

Dark Loink: Conflicting factions, expects lots of independent (secondary) win conditions. Suspects me, see above.

Brooklynxman: Active, though a whole bunch of posts with slightly off-topic comments (not necessarily bad, as long as there are content posts to go with it, which there are.) There very likely is no cult. Paul Atreides might be a mason with some people. Bene Gesserit will probably focus on keeping people alive. Fremen might side with Atreides. Votes Flying_Cookie for suggesting Harkonnen en Fremen could work together.

Mavketl: Judge for yourselves.

turret: Confirm post, nothing else. Superlurker, more please.

PhoenixEnigma: Same.

Krong: Probably no cult, maybe town recruiting system (Paul and Fremen for example). Most 'obvious' townies are probably a target for a lyncher / kill. No sandworm roles, maybe game mechanic. Pings on Adacore and me (for the BigNose/scumhunt thing), later half-retracted. Factions might have traitors (Yueh or Hawat). Suspicion on Silknor for his statements on town minority/majority issue.

Not A Raptor: No cult or benign cult (Paul). Little further content, odd questions for both Silknor and me. Neutral/slightly scummy, but I nearly always think NaR is acting scummy at the start of a game, so take that with a grain of salt, I suppose. Still, more content please!

BigNose: Active. Complains about win conditions system (based on luck, not skill). Asks if we can start scumhunting yet (without doing so himself). "Jokingly" voices suspicion of me (without reason), then votes for me (without reason) later on. Wants to treat this as any other mafia game, regular scumhunting, maybe two town factions, suspects 4ish scum, 1 SK, no cult, rest town. States that he likes Lataro's vote for me.
Basically: what's with the Mav-hatin'? You've consistently made comments about how I'm suspicious, how you like that people vote for me, and eventually voted for me yourself. Once is a joke. This really isn't, so how about you explain what the hell is going on?

mpolo: Probably no cult, but we should be cautious anyway. Harkonnen are bad and we want them gone - also Harkonnen supporters are dangerous (under the assumption that they have the same win conditions). Points out there are probably plenty of independents. We should scumhunt. He posted a bunch of analysis that I haven't read yet. Suspects Flying_Cookie for the Harkonnen/Fremen issue. All factions are probably small, no majority.
Seems townie to me.

Flying_Cookie: Thinks that faction alliances are not set in stone. Different factions could work together or at least "live and let live" to eliminate another that is in their way. Catches flak for the Harkonnen/Fremen cooperation suggestion. Retracts that idea later. Lurking is bad. Questions the Mav votes (yay).
I think people are being too critical. Fremen and Harkonnen would never work together in Dune, but that doesn't mean that in this mafia game, they can strike a deal to achieve their win conditions. I mean, Werewolves/Vamps pact in Buffy, anyone?

mister k wrote:http://fora.xkcd.com/search.php?author_id=307&sr=posts&t=65602
: Has a tiny user ID! We shouldn't claim unless it can't be helped. Probably no cult. Explains the use of rolespec (get people talking so we can 'read' them). We should act like this is a normal mafia game, regular scumhunting. Criticizes BigNose for the scumhunting issue.

cycoden: Started posting today (good, keep it up). Each house might have a kill. Mentions the possibility that scum are trying to keep town busy with cult speculation. Slight suspicion (or rather, noticing of oddness) about NaR's questions. Slightly suspicious of BigNose over the scumhunt thing, half-retracted. Suspicious of Flying_Cookie for the Harkonnen thing.

b.i.o: Active rolespeccing. Thinks Leto is dead. Emperor and Sardaukar are scum, Irulan is not. List of possible characters with alignments. Probably no cult. List of plausible win conditions.

weiyaoli: We shouldn't roleclaim because of lynchers / specific kill targets. There might very well be a cult. Harkonnen should be scum. Not a lot of content, I would like to see more.

Dr Ug: House vs House vs House, with some extras/independents. All players are human. Win conditions are both equally important. Not a lot of content (though some excellent gaming advice), I would like to see more.





BigNose wrote:In the meantime, I'm going to do a MoA andVote: Mavketl
What the hell, BigNose. Lataro's vote was an admitted random joke vote. Adding a second vote to that, without any reasons, is not a random joke vote. What are you doing? Here, have a:

FoS: BigNose

For that vote, and all the random comments in my direction without reason, and in addition to the "you should all scumhunt while I watch!" stuff I commented on earlier. And sorry, "It's not fair that Mav won Doctored" is not actually a reason. Neither is the "lurking"; I admit that I should've been posting more during the weekend, but I've been active before that.


Dark Loink wrote:I'll look through, Mav seems somewhat worth watching for me, but thats more gut feeling and speculation. I'd rather not get into the reasons yet, because if I'm wrong it would just make things worse.
I would rather like you to get into the reasons, if that's possible. If it's a matter of protecting yourself or someone else, then you shouldn't of course.

If you're afraid of possibly revealing something about my role however, you don't have to worry about that. I'm 90% sure there is no one out there aiming for me, specifically.

Silknor wrote:I think this is inconsistent with the book. Most of the Atreides don't have contact with the Fremen.
I think the point is that they're all the 'good guys', not that they have contact with each other (witnessed by "they are all still Town and don't know each other"). Much like townies in a regular mafia game.

In general, we obviously shouldn't make assumptions about the number and size of factions (we'll get there when we have more information). I think the necessary analysis for finding scum is much the same as in a regular game, though. Look for suspicious behaviour (active lurking, discouraging discussion, et cetera), and links between people (which will come in handy later, when we know some identities).
Not A Raptor: Mav can be a very wily and dangerous player.
roband: Mav has a way of making everything seem right.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby ameretrifle » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:23 pm UTC

Thus far there simply hasn't been a lot of content to post. I've speculated just about as far as I've been able, but I think the role/setup-spec went about as far as it could several days back. Faction v faction makes sense; it's not impossible that we would have a 'town' of Atreides and Fremen; anyone who knows for sure isn't talking (and, in this game, probably shouldn't). We'll know more on D2, and it's good to have info to look back on then, but I'm pretty sure everyone's posted their opinion on the setup twice over by now...

Which is why I'm glad we're finally starting to move on. FC's post was pretty odd, but not quite voteworthy imo. brook's vote based on it does not ping me as unusual for him whatsoever. I had been looking at mpolo but his recent usefulness has made me disregard my largely baseless suspicions. I don't think Mav's been lurking, and BigNose's vote irks me-- at this point, he's my favorite D1 lynch candidate by a long shot. The general silence on those "Mav=Lady Jessica" rumors, and now these badly-justified votes, make me wonder if someone, on a slow D1, has decided to hope that it is true.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:42 pm UTC

Correct me if I am mistaken but.....CHOAM shouldn't be a player.

If I recall correctly while they are mentioned as a source of power, they are never actually directly involved with any events in the book. Also, technically its just a business conglomerate that is run (and gives most of its profits to) whoever happens to be in power at the time. And anyway, according to Mohiam the 3 political powers were the Lansraad, the Emperor, and the Guild.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:06 pm UTC

The problem I have with BigNose is that he is always so confusing that I don't understand his points at all and I don't know when he is just confused about rules or setup or actually acting scummy.

BigNose wrote:OK, the reason I haved called for scum hunting and not done any myself, is because I don't know the flavour with anything but gloss, so if people are talking bolox, I haven't a clue, ergo I can't scum hunt on nothing.


I don't understand how not knowing the flavour stops you from scum hunting. Sure you can't pick up on when someone is lying or stretching the truth about the flavour to push an opinion but that is hardly all of what scum hunting involves D1. e.g. krong thought silknor was fishing for information which didn't really require extensive flavour knowledge to point out.

An IGMEOY: BigNose while I try to work out if he is being scummy or just being confusing again.

As for FC, to be fair I think he would have had to remember that one specific passage in the book as I did a quick search on wiki and came up with nothing about slaughtering fremen for sport.

How well do you know the flavour cycoden? Because I am clueless regards to the flavour and certainly had no idea harkonnen killed fremen as sport to use your words and I don't think it's a very fair portrayal by using "even I" and then going with something this specific that you couldn't find on wikipedia as if this would have been common knowledge.
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby weiyaoli » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:10 pm UTC

EBWOP:

nvm, I saw the bit at the top of cycoden's post. In that case, I still think it's misleading to try and make it sound like it was common knowledge.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:30 pm UTC

weiyaoli wrote:EBWOP:

nvm, I saw the bit at the top of cycoden's post. In that case, I still think it's misleading to try and make it sound like it was common knowledge.


The whole point of Rabban's history is his vicious treatment of the Fremen. The original Atreides (pre-invasion) talks with the Fremen were based around "we aren't the Harkonnen monsters" and then proving that point.

It is a difficult point to miss.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:32 pm UTC

Well, I've been a terrible, terrible replacement so far, having done very little. I just finished reading the thread end-to-end, and am a bit frustrated. I don't know enough flavour to have a lot of input on role spec, but my gut says there's some useful information already out there. In particular, I'm trying to parse people's opinions on how to treat the multiple win conditions, and how that might play out. While it seems to make things more complicated, I think it also doubles the data in play, making it easier to figure something out.

The only player to really, solidly trip any sort of gut instinct on my read through was mister k, who I'm inclined to think might have one "win-with-town" win condition and one that is more, um, morally ambiguous. Unfortunately, it's mostly a gut reaction to some of his views on how to play multiple win conditions, and I don't trust my gut a whole lot.

I am curious about the original flavour's Mav-Lady Jessica* connection. Unless I missed it (possible), I don't think Mavketl has actually commented on it (at least not directly. I'm not sure too much speculation in that direction is a good idea (L. Jessica would be one of the good guys, correct?), but the mod-direction is something I want to keep in mind.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby b.i.o » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:49 pm UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken but.....CHOAM shouldn't be a player.

CHOAM may not be a player, but they could be a secondary alignment of someone (although the only people I think that could credibly be CHOAM-aligned would be the Baron Harkonnen and the Emperor--I think that Duke Leto's more likely also Fremen-aligned from his character). But yeah, it's true that it doesn't make much sense for someone to be CHOAM-aligned from flavor.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Brooklynxman » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:18 am UTC

I sincerely doubt Mav is Lady Jessica, it would be kind of bastardly to include a warning "Be wary of roleclaiming" then outting a player in the first post.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mister k » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:36 am UTC

Brooklynxman wrote:I sincerely doubt Mav is Lady Jessica, it would be kind of bastardly to include a warning "Be wary of roleclaiming" then outting a player in the first post.


+1. It would seem nuts.

As to bignose... yeah that mav vote was not helpful- lurking over the weekend really doesn't count, and I pretty much did the same. I find lataro's joke vote a little annoying too. I know lataro just plays like that, but still...

vote:big nose

as I think its time to get voting.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:44 am UTC

Pre D1
Spoiler:
Brooklynxman » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:50 am UTC
ameretrifle » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:57 am UTC
Adacore » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:59 am UTC
mpolo » Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:02 am UTC
VectorZero » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:32 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:57 am UTC
mister k » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:44 pm UTC
BigNose » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:28 pm UTC
turret » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:05 pm UTC
weiyaoli » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:09 pm UTC
Adacore » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:45 pm UTC
Mavketl » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:22 pm UTC
ameretrifle » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:02 pm UTC
Dark Loink » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:19 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:53 pm UTC
greenlover » Sun Oct 31, 2010 7:38 pm UTC
b.i.o » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:37 pm UTC
Not A Raptor » Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:49 pm UTC
Dr Ug » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:46 pm UTC
Flying_Cookie » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:37 am UTC
Dr Ug » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:57 am UTC
Krong » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:08 am UTC
Brooklynxman » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:49 am UTC
VectorZero » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:02 am UTC
Dr Ug » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:19 am UTC
ameretrifle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:21 am UTC
Dr Ug » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:22 am UTC
ameretrifle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:24 am UTC
BigNose » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:39 am UTC
VectorZero » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:08 pm UTC
greenlover » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:29 pm UTC
BigNose » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:05 am UTC

D1 Start
Spoiler:
VectorZero » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:38 am UTC
Adacore » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:30 pm UTC
Lataro » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:32 pm UTC
Mavketl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:32 pm UTC
mister k » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:46 pm UTC
Mavketl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:48 pm UTC
Mavketl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:50 pm UTC
mpolo » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:41 pm UTC
greenlover » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:43 pm UTC
Adacore » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:52 pm UTC
b.i.o » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:35 pm UTC
b.i.o » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:40 pm UTC
b.i.o » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:42 pm UTC
BigNose » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:04 pm UTC
Mavketl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:11 pm UTC
Adacore » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:18 pm UTC
greenlover » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:28 pm UTC
weiyaoli » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:44 pm UTC
mister k » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:30 pm UTC
Not A Raptor » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:43 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:56 pm UTC
mpolo » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:48 pm UTC
ameretrifle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:59 pm UTC
Dr Ug » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:17 pm UTC
Krong » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:29 pm UTC
Dr Ug » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:37 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:41 pm UTC Krong » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:46 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:31 am UTC
Brooklynxman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:32 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:09 am UTC
Mavketl » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:37 am UTC
Silknor » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:41 am UTC
BigNose » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:42 pm UTC
mister k » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:51 pm UTC
Adacore » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:25 pm UTC
Mavketl » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:29 pm UTC
BigNose » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:05 pm UTC Not A Raptor » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:09 pm UTC Mavketl » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:22 pm UTC mister k » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:07 pm UTC
mpolo » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:15 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:43 pm UTC
mister k » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:55 pm UTC
ameretrifle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:09 pm UTC
Lataro » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:15 pm UTC greenlover » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:29 pm UTC Flying_Cookie » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:03 am UTC Krong » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:02 am UTC
Mavketl » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:13 am UTC
VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:37 am UTC
PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:39 am UTC
PhoenixEnigma » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:39 am UTC
Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:19 am UTC
BigNose » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:50 am UTC
VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:44 am UTC
Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:46 am UTC
VectorZero » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:11 pm UTC
b.i.o » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:22 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:17 pm UTC
weiyaoli » Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:27 pm UTC
mpolo » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:08 pm UTC
Dr Ug » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:25 pm UTC
Adacore » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:50 pm UTC
mister k » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:54 pm UTC
mister k » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:55 pm UTC
ameretrifle » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:57 pm UTC
mpolo » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:00 pm UTC Dark Loink » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:25 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:55 pm UTC
Krong » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:02 am UTC
ameretrifle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:53 am UTC
Dr Ug » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:00 am UTC ameretrifle » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:15 am UTC
Brooklynxman » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:35 am UTC Silknor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:44 am UTC
Not A Raptor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:59 am UTC
BigNose » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:52 am UTC
mpolo » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:04 pm UTC
Silknor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:27 pm UTC
Krong » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:00 am UTC weiyaoli » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:07 pm UTC ameretrifle » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:20 pm UTC
mpolo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:15 pm UTC
Silknor » Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:01 pm UTC
Dark Loink » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:42 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:40 am UTC
Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:02 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:09 am UTC
Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:59 am UTC
VectorZero » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:16 am UTC BigNose » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:27 am UTC VectorZero » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:54 am UTC
cycoden » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:04 am UTC
mister k » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:06 am UTC
cycoden » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:07 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:37 am UTC
Flying_Cookie » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:40 am UTC
mpolo » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:48 am UTC
b.i.o » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:48 pm UTC
greenlover » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:34 pm UTC
Krong » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:11 pm UTC
BigNose » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:55 pm UTC
Mavketl » Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:39 pm UTC
ameretrifle » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:23 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:42 pm UTC
weiyaoli » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:06 pm UTC
weiyaoli » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:10 pm UTC Brooklynxman » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:30 pm UTC
PhoenixEnigma » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:32 pm UTC
b.i.o » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:49 pm UTC
Brooklynxman » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:18 am UTC

Sorted by name:
Spoiler:
Adacore - 7
ameretrifle - 7
b.i.o - 6
BigNose - 7
Brooklynxman - 13
cycoden - 2
Dark Loink - 2
Dr Ug - 4
Flying_Cookie - 6
greenlover - 4
Krong - 6
Lataro - 2
Mavketl - 9
mister k - 8
mpolo - 8
Not A Raptor - 3
PhoenixEnigma - 3
Silknor - 4
turret - 0
weiyaoli - 5

Sorted by quantity:
Spoiler:
turret - 0
cycoden - 2
Dark Loink - 2
Lataro - 2
Not A Raptor - 3
PhoenixEnigma - 3
Dr Ug - 4
greenlover - 4
Silknor - 4
weiyaoli - 5
b.i.o - 6
Flying_Cookie - 6
Krong - 6
Adacore - 7
ameretrifle - 7
BigNose - 7
mister k - 8
mpolo - 8
Mavketl - 9
Brooklynxman - 13

Bad boys:
turret, cycoden, Dark Loink, Lataro

Not good boys:
NAR, P_E, Dr Ug, greenlover, Silknor

Noisy boys:
mister k, mpolo, Mavketl, BXM

When I have more time, I will check for content, as I know that quite a few of these are EBWOP and 1-liners.
And just how bad is it, if the MOD has more posts than the players!

As Mavketl has been noisy:

Unvote

PS What my vote did was to atleast start people looking and get away from the flavour.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:11 am UTC

BigNose wrote:As Mavketl has been noisy:

Unvote
This is not a reason for an unvote. I was up there in the "noisy" category at the time you placed that vote.

BigNose wrote:PS What my vote did was to atleast start people looking and get away from the flavour.
Are you claiming that was the reason of your vote from the start, and it was randomly me, or that it was a fortunate byproduct?

And since the Lady Jessica issue has been brought up a couple of times now: I'm not Lady Jessica. I was trying to not have that discussion for a while, though, since there must be someone out there aiming for her, and it's good to keep them confused. However, I half-gave it away with my own "I'm pretty sure there is nobody aiming for my role" earlier, and Brooklynxman provided a pretty good argument: it would be a rather big influence on the game by the mod if it were true. It's not true. But I can't help but wonder if BigNose was thinking it could be true?

(On a reread: hey, ameretrifle is making the same point. That "general silence" was intentional, and I hope it might've paid off.)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:28 am UTC

Yeah, I kind of took that line out of the "rumors" as fluff. I.e. Mavketl has exactly the same chance of being Jessica as everybody else: i.e. 5%. The question is whether any of the rumors are true, then.

BigNose is flailing around a bit, but he doesn't really seem scummy to me. I tend to read him worse than he is (that is, I am always on the verge of lynching him for being scummy -- and then he's not), so I am tending to leave him in that "uncertain, tending positive" category. Of course, lurkiness is not the only sign of scumminess (and is not infallible either), so I hope that BigNose will go farther with his analysis than just counting posts.

Someone said that the two win conditions were probably going to make it harder to see who is what, and I'm wondering if that's not true. Because I am not getting a real feel off of anybody. I am assuming that the Harkonnens have a fully scummy win condition, combined with some second condition, which may be different from one Harkonnen to the next -- those who are happy with the Emporer might want him to make it through alive, others may want to assassinate the Emporer to increase Harkonnen power. Or maybe one of them is trying to exterminate the Fremen before endgame, or some such.

But I really haven't seen any major signs of scummitude. F_C's little thing is nagging at me, but I am afraid that it was an honest mistake.

Above all we need more than the same 4 "noisy boys" to start posting. (As I noted, two of us in the "many postings" category have not produced all that much bulk of analysis up to now. I hope that I am improving on that count.)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Mavketl » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:35 am UTC

mpolo wrote:BigNose is flailing around a bit, but he doesn't really seem scummy to me. I tend to read him worse than he is (that is, I am always on the verge of lynching him for being scummy -- and then he's not), so I am tending to leave him in that "uncertain, tending positive" category.
It seems odd to discard scummy behavior because it's coming from a player "who's always acting scummy". Maybe they should stop doing that, then.

I'm not saying he's definitely scum (hence the distinct lack of voting for him right now), but he still needs to explain himself convincingly before I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. "I always act like I'm scum" would not be a convincing explanation in my opinion. :P
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:26 pm UTC

So, the MOD states that:
VectorZero wrote:Cycoden and turret have not posted since the game began. Modprods have been sent. They have 48 hours to respond or face replacement/modkill.

PhoenixEnigma, Lataro, greenlover and mavketl have not posted since Nov 4 AEST. Please increase activity.

If gameplay does not increase in the next 24 hours, a time limit will be implemented.
So, I decide to let the MOD deal with turret and cycoden and try (again) to kick-start the scum-hunting by applying a vote.

Who do I apply it to? Well, I have 4 choices as supplied by the MOD, because as I have previously stated, being Flavour limited, there is little I can determine that might be scum-tells from the flavour discussion.

I am not the only one to be happy that we are now getting into the hunt, as others have also proclaimed that.

Back to my choice of 4, as I stated, there is no real reason for the vote on Mav, other than as stated (he won Doctored) and to move the game in the right direction.

If Mav had been so vocal, then why did the MOD include him in the list?

By looking back over my Lurker list. I now find that Mav has posted a host of times on 02/03/04 Nov and then nothing until 07 Nov.
Hence, when I find the reason for voting is no longer valid, (lots of posts and more mafia general discussion by all) I removed it.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby b.i.o » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

BigNose wrote:If Mav had been so vocal, then why did the MOD include him in the list?

her

Also, is there any particular reason you always capitalize mod?

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Lataro » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:01 pm UTC

As I said before, I know less than nothing about the flavor, and thus far, the majority of the game has been on "that's scummy flavor spec!" rather than actual scummy stuff.

Thank you BigNose.

Unvote
Vote: BigNose


For your ever popular scum post of how many posts each player has made. It's a great way to look helpful while at the same time saying pretty much nothing of consequence. Doubly so when the mod seems to be dealing with lurkers already.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby BigNose » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:17 pm UTC

Lataro wrote:As I said before, I know less than nothing about the flavor, and thus far, the majority of the game has been on "that's scummy flavor spec!" rather than actual scummy stuff.

Thank you BigNose.

Unvote
Vote: BigNose


For your ever popular scum post of how many posts each player has made. It's a great way to look helpful while at the same time saying pretty much nothing of consequence. Doubly so when the mod seems to be dealing with lurkers already.
Remind me again exactly who has done what so far this game in finding mafia?
It may not be much, but it's a darn sight more than most.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby mpolo » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:35 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:
mpolo wrote:BigNose is flailing around a bit, but he doesn't really seem scummy to me. I tend to read him worse than he is (that is, I am always on the verge of lynching him for being scummy -- and then he's not), so I am tending to leave him in that "uncertain, tending positive" category.
It seems odd to discard scummy behavior because it's coming from a player "who's always acting scummy". Maybe they should stop doing that, then.

I'm not saying he's definitely scum (hence the distinct lack of voting for him right now), but he still needs to explain himself convincingly before I'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. "I always act like I'm scum" would not be a convincing explanation in my opinion. :P


True. I'm not giving him a bye by any means, but the bar is a little higher there where I always read him in a scummy light. At present, he seems just paralyzed by the flavor, which is understandable, but makes it really difficult to judge him.

Lataro is very similar, actually. He doesn't feel able to post anything of content, and then just starts attacking, in this case, seemingly going for the low-hanging fruit. A groundswell of willingness to lynch in that direction is rising, and he just kind of rides the wave in. At least there wasn't a real bandwagon there yet, but it feels likely that there is one forming.
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:33 pm UTC

Ok, let's do a quick overview of my thoughts on all the players at this stage:

Silknor - posted long role spec, then voiced cocern over the town vs scum (vs scum?) idea. Suggested the multiple-competing-factions model. Claims to be uninformed and speculates numerous possibilities for setups. Suggests the Fremen and Atriedes factions will not be aligned, and should be separate for the purposes of discussion; encourages scumhunting. Complains about lurkers, suggests more than one NK and expects there not to be a majority town faction. I'm finding all of that pretty suspect, really. I think Silknor is likely scum (probably Harkonnen, if so).

Adacore - I've mostly been asking random flavour-based questions as they occur to me and trying to figure out the setup. I've done no analysis yet as I'm so lacking on flavour knowledge, but I'm starting now (obviously). I consider myself immaculately townish :mrgreen:

ameretrifle - implied in her first content post that her win condition(s) could be subject to change, and states that she has a 'primary' faction win condition and a 'secondary' more specific win condition which she describes as nearly impossible. I'm guessing this is to protect or target some individual player or group of players whose identity she doesn't know. I'm leaning town on amt.

lataro - has made two content posts so far. Both have been short and of the format "I don't know the flavour; vote; subpar explanation". He's looking very scummy to me at this point, to be honest.

greenlover - suggests that win conditions should be on an individual basis rather than a house/alignment basis. States that this would indicate the possibility of multiple indeps, SKs and a possible free-for-all setup, standard town-scum or the multiple-factions scenario. Favours free-for-all or multiple-factions. Queries Lataro's random vote on Mav; has pings from Silknor and F_C. I'm leaning town on greenlover.

Dark Loink - agrees with the multiple-factions idea. Wonders which faction would be 'town', discusses win conditions and proposes the idea of being aligned with both Harkonnen and Atriedes. Considers people with more than one faction alignment likely, and 'true independents' unlikely. Suspicions of Mav. Suggests that even in the multiple-factions arrangement, there will be one or more factions which are (combined) equivalent to 'town' and one or two 'scum' groups. Could do with posting more analysis, but I'm going to say townish for now, possibly a member of both a 'town' faction and another more neutral faction.

Brooklynxman - doubts the existance of a cult and has a very strong conviction that Atreides & Fremen = good and Harkonnen = bad. This implies to me he is one or the other - either Atreides or Fremen trying to defend his faction or Harkonnen trying to spill wine. Later, states strong belief that Harkonnen and Fremen could not work together and votes F_C based on this. I think he's either Harkonnen, Fremen or Atreides, but am undecided on which, and in all honesty that doesn't really narrow it down much, I guess. Ah well - at least for now, I'll put him in the 'townish' bracket.

Mavketl - began with a list of role spec possibilities, discussed the possibilities and alignments a little. Agreed with the primary/secondary win condition idea. Suggests a prevalence of traitors, encouraged BigNose to scumhunt then defended said encouragement. Did review/analysis post with not much analysis (kinda similar to this, I guess), rails against BigNose's vote. I'm not sure why I considered Mav suspicious before (I think it was the post about traitor possibilities), I'm not really getting that feeling from a re-read; leaning town.

turret - hasn't posted, should be replaced.

PhoenixEnigma - hasn't posted much. Suggested that mister k could have both a pro-town win and a more dubious win condition. Raised the Mav-Jessica question (which I hadn't noticed, if I had I may have asked too). Not enough to get any real read here.

Krong - suggests that secondary win conditions may be killer/lyncher roles to prevent a massclaim. Suggests no cult, and that sandworms would be neutral, attacking those that get near them in response to my questions. Doesn't expect sandworms as players. Suggests two win conditions will encourage lurking, states minor pings on Mav and me. Thinks BigNose is oversimplifying, states high likelihood of traitors and roles with conflicted loyalties. Voices suspicion of Silknor for not being Fremen or Atriedes. Then states suspicion of BigNose and F_C, in particular BigNose, with BN's vote for Mav pushing Krong to vote. I'm getting a mixed read from Krong - I'm getting some pings, and the emphasis on traitors and multiple factions, plus the way he worded a few things means I'm leaning scum, but only marginally.

Not A Raptor - hasn't posted much except to comment on a cult and ask a couple of (sensible) questions. Needs to post more. As ever, with NaR, we may find it difficult to see past the crazy, but there's nothing really there to get a handle on yet.

BigNose - pretty much states outright that he is aligned with two factions which may or may not have competing win conditions. Following this, starts badgering people to begin scum-hunting as opposed to flavour spec. Having already posted that he is in two factions, he then suggests our setup is likely near-standard town vs scum, and also posits the idea that which house is town/scum is irrelevant, because scummy players will look like scum. This is, I suppose, partly true but also invalidates a lot of the logic for why flavour spec is a useful/good thing (which again makes sense in context, because BigNose is claiming it is not). Votes Mav purely to encourage posting (odd, she was already posting). Makes a very indepth post-count. BigNose isn't looking very town-ish to me, but nor does his normal playstyle; I actually think he is town.

mpolo - agrees with my idea of primary/secondary win conditions, and that there is likely something similar to a town/scum divide (with Harkonnens as scum). Then he rethinks, suggesting that a multiple-faction scenario is more likely based on the allegiance-linked win conditions. Posted extensive player notes, is suspicious of F_C for same reason as BxM, but doesn't vote out of fear that it is an honest mistake. I'm unconvinced on mpolo, if anything leaning slightly towards scummy.

Flying_Cookie - made one content post about the possibilities of different factions being able to win together and different alliances, including Harkonnen/Fremen which stirred up some suspicion. Then posted some defence of this, indicating that he meant they would merely be able to both survive, as opposed to forming an actual alliance. I'm relatively convinced this was an honest mistake: although I've seen no evidence of F_C being townie, I dont' think he's looked particularly scummy either. Neutral.

Misterk - initially assumes the town vs scum setup, as opposed to the competing factions one. This implies he's either one of the major factions, or an independent so separate he could not possibly be aligned with a faction, to me (no idea who/what the latter would be, if we're ruling out sandworms, though). Also favours the primary + secondary win condition setup. Votes BigNose for his random/aggressive behaviour. I think he's likely town.

cycoden - took a long time (and a modprod) to post, has made one content post. Suggests a multiple-factions idea, but also proposes that each house would have a kill. Suspicious of me for raising cult question (aside: I did that not because I was majorly concerned about a cult, but to see how people would react). Doubts individualistic win conditions are prevalent. Suspicious of F_C and BigNose. I'm very wary on cycoden - suggesting that the game is, in effect, multiple scum factions in competition (with Atriedes as 'town' in name only) seems like a fairly scummy move to me.

b.i.o - responded to Mav's rolespec, then made a more complete list of role possibilities. Suggests no cult. Lists possible win conditions for factions, suggests most factions will be looking for a majority and may be able to ally to achieve it. Hasn't done anything in the way of analysis yet. I'm neutral here, although I suspect b.i.o is a member of one of the 'Houses' I can't tell which one (incidentally, he suggested, in effect, that Corrino are mafia-supporters, with Harkonnen as mafia; while Fremen are town-supporters, with Atriedes as town).

weiyaoli - didn't post much early aside from a reply to my cult question which felt vaguely cult-ish to me. But since I don't think there is a cult, I doubt that's relevant. Favours the Harkonnen = scum, anti-Harkonnen = town view of the game. Has similar view on BigNose to me, with slight suspicion; also doesn't consider F_C suspicious. Aside from that, hasn't posted much - even with lack of flavour knowledge, he could just ask more questions, or do some analysis. I'm neutral, leaning town on wei.

Dr Ug - made a comedy rolespec post based on the game. Thinks all players are human from flavour (I'm not so sure), and suggests that win conditions are unlikely to be considered using the 'primary/secondary' idea. Suggests players will attempt to get their easiest win condition, not the 'most towny'. Aside from that, no real content - could do with posting more, but I'm going to guess at independent for now.

Don't really have time to summarise now - this took way longer than I expected and it's late. I'll put up a summary later, but I believe my biggest suspicions are on Silknor and Lataro.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:39 pm UTC

Adacore, could you point out where this happened?
Adacore wrote:BigNose - pretty much states outright that he is aligned with two factions which may or may not have competing win conditions.

I may have missed it while I was busy getting minor pings from you :P (The pings which, as I said in my vote post, I now blame on BigNose's antics, and fully retract.)

Nothing in what BN has said since has really done anything to convince me of his townieness; each of his posts contains some variation on "I'm scumhunting, unlike the rest of you", but all we've really got from him is (1) a vote on one of our most active players, justified as a lurker vote, and (2) a postcount summary. I do see what mpolo and Adacore are getting at, though, because BigNose's posts in most games tend to look scummy to me regardless of whether he is or not. Hrmmm. I'll try to see if anyone out there looks worse later tonight.

(A preview: Lataro's joke vote followed by an easy bandwagon vote is not going to be portrayed in a positive light.)
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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Adacore » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:50 pm UTC

Krong wrote:Adacore, could you point out where this happened?
Adacore wrote:BigNose - pretty much states outright that he is aligned with two factions which may or may not have competing win conditions.

I may have missed it while I was busy getting minor pings from you :P (The pings which, as I said in my vote post, I now blame on BigNose's antics, and fully retract.)

This is the post I was referring to:
BigNose wrote:I'm not sure how we are menat to achieve 2 win conditions except by luck.

If I am in Faction A, then I have a win condition of Faction B and a win condition with Faction B (for example).
Faction A has win objectives C & D.
Faction B has win objectives D & E
So only achieving win condition D will give those with 2 win conditions a full win.

While I (in Faction A) would know what my win condition is, I don't have a clue as to who is in Faction B, or indeed their win condition.

I read that as meaning that BigNose is aligned with two factions.

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Re: Dune D1: Don't be shocked by the tone of my voice

Postby Krong » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:36 am UTC

Alright, done a bit of looking around. Not as in-depth as some people have done, but I noticed a few things.

NaR, Lataro, and Dr Ug. 3 players who are normally quite active, and we've got very very little from them. All Lataro's done is pop-up with a meta-vote and then a quick BigNose vote. Dr Ug's popped in to ask a few easy questions that probably combine to be less than his initial joke post. And NaR's done even less than that.

All of them have claimed to have little flavor-knowledge from the book, which is fine, but the two-win-conditions thing is a significant enough difference from the usual that they could be active off of analysis of that alone. Would like to see them posting more.

And Lataro, well, I'd think it's a bit more likely that he really was looking for scumtells than bandwagoning, but I'm not sure I could place the difference between them.

mpolo. Adacore thought he looked slightly scummy, and mpolo had a bit of an odd self-accusation of not posting enough analysis that caught my attention. Aaand... yeah, I'm not seeing it. He looks pretty townie so far. The thing I noticed the most was that his posts didn't really seem guarded at all, which I'd even say makes him unlikely to even be indy. Still, he's a good scum player, will stay on watch, etc. etc.

BigNose. Err... I tried to look at this with an open mind, but I kept running into weird stuff. Like this, well before his Mav vote:
BigNose wrote:
Mavketl wrote:BigNose: feel free to start scumhunting!

And my first suspicion is centred on you :D .
Oh alright, it's only a joke.

And this:
BigNose wrote:Whether the Harkunnon or the Fremen or the Atriedes are Town or Scum is (slightly) irrelevant other than speculation at this moment.
Whether there is a Cult or not, is dependant on the MODs whim.
It is only after N1, that we may get more of an idea.
For all we know, the MOD could have cast the Fremen as Scum, but until we lynch Scum, we are not going to find out.

I think if this wasn't D1, I'd still be a bit reluctant to vote you just for this posting weirdness. But posting weirdness is really what we've got to go on today, and you've certainly got enough of it.
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