The Subject Of Replacement Players

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The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Lataro » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

Am I the only one who absolutely hates when people need to be replaced, and feels like their asking to be replaced can ruin the game?

I get that things come up, stuff happens, and you can get to a point where you can't continue playing, but that rarely seems to be the situation when I notice people getting replaced.

More times than not, they are simply inactive, and without a word of explanation from them, the mod is forced to replace or mod kill them. They'll come back some time later and without a considerate word on the subject, sign up for another game without acknowledgment to those whom their previous actions (or, inactions) effected.

Others, who will sign up for several games at once, and then when things aren't going well for them in one, will ask to be replaced while maintaining activity in the other games. I find this one just flat out rude, to both the mod and the rest of the players. They'll offer various excuses when they do so, but ultimately, it comes down to rude behavior in my book.

Of course there are times when a player will ask to be replaced because something unexpected came up (not some made up excuse of managing time, or taking on too much, but something legitimate and unforeseen) in which case, they do not apply to this rant. This is dealing specifically with those whom don't have the respect for others to explain after the fact why they just vanished on a game, or whom quit on one game when things go badly for them to focus on another, or claim some bogus reason (in my book at least) of "biting off too much" or some other nonsense about poor time management. For the most part, people have a good idea of how much time they can spend here, and I don't grudge them that, but if you know you can only handle one or two games at a time, and sign up for four, then that's your failing.

I guess what my point with all this is, that perhaps we should consider sanctions for people who either by inactivity or bogus reasons, ask to be replaced, thus harming the game they were in. This could be as simple as a temp ban from the next game in sign ups, or a list maintained of people who do this, with scaled punishment based on frequency of offenses. Perhaps even a special section in game sign ups where they have to sign up, and if no one else takes a normal spot, the mod can use their discretion in allowing them into the game. Something like...

Signups: All non-quitters sign up here.
1.
2.
...
10.

Quitters: Those who habitually need to or ask to be replaced are forced to sign up here.
1.
2.
3.

Replacements: Those who wish to be replacements if needed sign up here.
1.
2.
3.



I dunno. Maybe I am the only one who feels this way that people who do this ruin the game, and am annoyed when replacements come in, since it creates a crappy (in my opinion) situation, especially if the person being replaced was under suspicion.

Am I the only one who feels this way? If so I'll suck it up, but if not, we should consider some measures to try and alleviate this problem.


EDIT:

Shared Google Doc for mods or other players to track when someone requests to be replaced or has to be modkilled for failure to respond to prod.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ag1lOgJ3FE_vdFNrX3FPN2ZKZjFlcEM2VTQ1S0JiTEE&hl=en_GB&authkey=CPKDiJgF

Apparently, I can't do URLs due to not posting where posts count I guess.
Last edited by Lataro on Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:59 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby roband » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:57 pm UTC

I asked to be replaced in one game, but that was because I was in two others and also modding a game, and I stupidly thought I could handle it.
I had the time, but not the brain capacity to handle all those trains of thought. So that was down to inexperience and I won't be repeating it.

I feel your pain, 1/3 of the players in Dexter have had to be replaced, which is frustrating, but then we tried to bring back players who had been inactive for some time.

I think relegating offenders to a separate list is a little extreme, unless they're doing it every game for 4+ games in a row. But at that point, the mod needs to step in and tell them that they are exercising their modly right and removing that player from the game.

I don't think there needs to be rules for it, it's down to the mod of any particular game.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:03 am UTC

Do we have many repeat offenders in this category? Most of the people I see who need replacing are either newbies or just flat-out vanish for ages. I guess someone could look over the (recent) archives and see what the statistics are like.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby AngrySquirrel » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:22 am UTC

The problem with leaving it up to the mods is that it's bloody annoying. It also ruins the game. Searching for replacements leads to stagnation, stagnation leads to more people losing interest in the game which leads to more stagnation and more need for replacements. Yes, as a mod you can always just modkill, but that can often ruin the game for those people who are actually participating in the game. As a mod I loathe searching for replacements, but what sucks even more is having the outcome of the game determined by who can be arsed to get online and make a post or not. I like to make sure every player has the opportunity to affect the outcome of my games, as such it's highly annoying when people just disappear. And as a player nothing pisses me off more than having to sit around and wait for days, either to throw down my own vote or for others to throw down theirs, because we just don't know if people are playing or not.

Now I do understand that sometimes stuff shows up. Life is quite good at being unpredictable. I still feel like shit for having to abandon one of my games not too long ago. So I get it, real-life is more important than mafia and that's cool. But I'm so very, very sick of searching for replacements, and waiting for people to show up, that mafia just isn't any fun anymore.

Edit: I too would like to see some data on if there's someone who's repeatedly dropping from games. I know I've got my own list over people who tend to lurk like crazy, or disappear, but those only cover the limited amounts of games I've been participating in myself.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby roband » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:40 am UTC

When I said about it being up to the mods, I meant pre-game.

A PM saying, "you've dropped out of a lot of games, I need some assurance that you're not going to go inactive on me"
or even, "You've dropped out of too many games, and as such I'm relegating you to the replacement bench - you can join if we don't have enough players when the game starts"
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Weeks » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:10 am UTC

I'm just playing the invitational now (and probably Inception, but I'm already playing there), but I agree that replacing players make the game tougher. I asked for replacement a few times in the past, mostly for poor time management, but then I just realized I didn't have time for games anymore so I simply stopped playing.

I'm sure some have good reasons, but I agree that it disturbs the game, and that something should be done. Perhaps it's best for the mods to come up with their own solutions in pre-game for a while.

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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby roband » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:25 pm UTC

Err, Lataro, I'm really enjoying the game, but Zoo mafia just started and it's eating all of my time.
Could I get a replacement for this discussion please?

Sorry.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:19 pm UTC

So, I went through every game so far this year and noted who was modkilled or replaced. Here's the results:

Spoiler:
1984ia - 3/15 - Dark Loink, mister k, Rodan
Cuban - 7/15 - Phoenix112358, Dromtry, 123, KrazyKate*, mister k, mieulium, Rodan
Job Agency - 0/10
Time Warp - 1/10 - mister k
Jurassic Park - 5/26 - Phoenix112358*, Kipper*, Bulvox*, Flying_Cookie, Not A Raptor
Amy's Surprise - 0/20
MoA Project - 1/11 - Weeks
Star Wars - 3/12 - Azrael001, Not A Raptor, crucialityfactor
Turbo Dethy 1 - 1/7 - Weeks
Harry Potter - 4/20 - Andymeo, Summit.42, crucialityfactor, Vieto
1959 - 1/15 - superdemongob
Openly Bastard - 1/24 - superdemongob
Hospital - 0/10
Whackabanana - 5/20 - Gojoe, Jar'O'Jam, Mr Pete, Vieto, michaelandjimi
Asylum - 1/16 - The Mighty Thesaurus
8-bit - 1/18 - zerker2000 (due to complaints)
Frogzombie - 3/18 - milkybee93, Lataro, Felltir
Parania - 0/10
Wizardry 1 - 1/15 - Van
DN: Legacy - 5/20 - Vieto, Lataro, superdemongob, eajik, cycoden
Life and Death - 2/12 - Lataro, Martin P Roberts
Discworld - 8/33 - Vieto, McCaber, Fin Archangel, Enginerd27, Andymeo, MasterOfAll, Weeks, cycoden
Metagame - 0/15
Turbo Dethy 2 - 0/7
Chaos - 0/10
Last Man Standing - 0/15
Beach - 2/18 - Dark Loink, VectorZero
North Pole - 1/11 - Sruixan
Turbo Vanilla - 1/9 - Name
Assassins - 0/7
Scrubs - 1/13 - Felltir
Sleepytown - 0/11
Wizardry 2 - 6/20 - crucialityfactor*, dkm86*, Dromtry*, Arduous, Sungura*, Adacore
Somnambulist - 0/13
Traitor - 0/12
Buffy - 2/22 - vector, Two-Fry
Doctored - 1/8 - CptClueless
NQR+ - 2/12 - ThatMafiaGuy, CptClueless
Dune+ - 2/20 - ThatMafiaGuy, Turret
Dexter+ - 5/18 - Jebobek, The Moo Prophet, Felltir, Dromtry, Sir_Elderberry
Alice+ - 1/10 - Not A Raptor

Games marked '+' are still playing. Players marked * were replaced/modkilled before the game had really started (either in signups or early D1). I almost certainly missed some players in this category, just as I almost certainly missed some players which dropped out of the above games.


From that, Vieto has dropped out of 4 games; mister k, Dromtry, Not A Raptor, Weeks, crucialityfactor, superdemongob, Felltir and Lataro have all dropped from 3. Note that for active players, dropping from multiple games may come as a result of a single one-off event which means they have to drop all active games. Lataro, for example, dropped out of all his games (DN:L, Life & Death, Frogzombie) simultaneously.

The average dropout rate was around 13% (actually slightly lower, around 12%, if you factor in the replacements that didn't subsequently drop out). I'd say that's ok - obviously lower would be preferable, but it seems to be ok. The recent dropout rate (over the last 10 games in that list) is also 13%, so it doesn't seem to be changing much either.

NB: I didn't consider newbie games - there are probably plenty of dropouts there too, but it's mostly people who don't sign up to another game again, so it didn't seem worthwhile counting them.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:02 pm UTC

You missed the dropouts in parania - lataro and mister k. But that game was unusual and probably shouldn't count IMO.

I'm not sure what to do about dropouts. It is an annoying problem, especially later in games when replacements have been used up / too hard for replacements to catch up / etc. I think it will always be around, and I don't think there's an easy solution.

Even the stigma of being "named and shamed" may help people to not do it as much, so perhaps that may help?
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:09 am UTC

Dr Ug wrote:You missed the dropouts in parania - lataro and mister k. But that game was unusual and probably shouldn't count IMO.

Yeah, I deliberately avoided counting a couple of the stranger games (those that didn't really come to an 'end'). Parania, Clue, and a couple of others.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 am UTC

Ah - I was confused by it being in the list, but saying "0 replacements".
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby jayhsu » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:17 pm UTC

You could just keep a running list of people who have dropped from games, e.g.:

Jay: 2 games (Stupidmafia, MadeUpNameFia)

Let individual mods pass what judgement they will. It would also serve as a reminder to players: "Oh man, I dropped out of like 3 games, I should not do that anymore..."

Also, I have an idea for ReplacementMafia, where people sub in and out for spots. Heh.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:24 pm UTC

Yeah, I guess... I'm not sure I can be bothered to put the effort into maintaining something like that. But it's probably not too much work, so maybe I will.

jayhsu wrote:Also, I have an idea for ReplacementMafia, where people sub in and out for spots. Heh.

I currently have four fairly well developed game concepts. Two of them, the Mafia on a Plane mini and a closed bastard mini, are pretty much good to go. Colours mini is still in concept stage - it's a nice idea, but I can't quite get the mechanics I want to work. Timetravel/Continuity mafia is a medium, and is still a fair way from being fully done (I've simplified it a lot since my first drafts though). Then there's a couple of other concepts for games floating around, for example one vaguely inspired by Pokemafia, or D&D mafia. I should probably put one of the minis in the queue some time soon.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:44 pm UTC

So, yeah, being a mod and having to replace/modkill players sucks. I think it is absolutely necessary for mods to be actively putting in the necessary effort in keeping their games active, but it is really nice to mod a game with no issues of player inactivity. So I am in favor of anything that encourages players to actually play the games they are in.

On a rather unrelated topic, being a player in a game where the mod enjoys modkilling a bit too much also sucks, especially when it has major impacts on the outcome (I could provide some examples if this in past games, but don't feel like putting in the effort, so you will just have to trust me or look for them yourself). So don't mod like that, please. On a somewhat related topic, it *really, really* sucks to be in a game where the mod(s) completely disappear(s) and either a replacement mod has to be found or the game just dies. So don't mod like that, either!

On the other hand, I really don't mind when a replacement player comes into a game I am playing in (I do mind the situation that often leads up to this where a player becomes totally inactive, but that isn't the replacement player's fault). And, I actually enjoy being a replacement player. The first game I was in on this forum was as a replacement player, the last game that I was in was as a replacement player (not counting the one I am currently in), and I was a replacement in a couple other games, and would have been a replacement player more if I hadn't often been in a whole bunch of games already. So, I guess what I'm saying is that more players should intentionally avoid all game spoilers to keep themselves available to be a replacement, as well as adding themselves as a replacement while a game is still in sign-up stage.

Anyway, thanks to Adacore for putting together that list. I do think it would be more useful if it was organized the other way around (a list of players in alphabetical order showing how many times each has been replaced/modkilled). If Adacore doesn't want to commit to updating the list on a regular basis, perhaps it could just be a shared Google doc that anyone can edit, and whenever another player drops or gets kicked out of another game the mod or another player from that game can update the list. Lataro could then edit the link to the shared doc into his 1st post of this thread so that it is easy to find.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby ThinkSweet » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:05 am UTC

The very first game I played, I was a replacement. And the next day I got lynched because the previous player had come under suspicion. It sucked a bit, but in hindsite I think this is what should happen. If a role gets replaced, expecially more than once, it is really hard to guage what that role is because a fair bit of mafia for me is analysing behaviour over the corse of the game, and reactions to various things.

I also find it annoying when then player with the most votes gets replaced, their votes reset, & all suspicion off them. It's like a fresh start because it's unfair to hold what the previous person did against them. Except that's the point! If someone is playing like scum, and their replacement plays like town, it could just be that the replacement is a better player and the first was unintentionally giving off scum tells. Or that person could be scum, & by resetting votes town ends up lynching a town player because their first lynch choice was replaced.

Having said all that, I don't think there's much that can really be done about it. I guess at the discretion of the mod might work. But seperate lists is a bit much.

Also, I dropped out of the Somnabulist one mainly due to being in two other games, one of which was Buffy! But that should go on the list if someone's actually going to do that.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby MasterOfAll » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:29 pm UTC

ThinkSweet wrote:Having said all that, I don't think there's much that can really be done about it. I guess at the discretion of the mod might work. But seperate lists is a bit much.
Well, I thought the idea was to make it a little easier for a mod to be aware of which players might cause problems by needing to be replaced, and to hopefully discourage players from doing it if they know that others are actually paying attention.

I like both playing and modding games, but I certainly don't follow every game here (or really, follow any game I'm not playing or modding, to be honest). So, I actually would find it useful to have a list to refer to.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Lataro » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:53 am UTC

Well, from going over these posts, I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.

I've no idea how google docs and all that work, but if someone else does, as MoA suggested, I'd edit a link into my first post for easy reference.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby MasterOfAll » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:00 am UTC

I can set up the shared Google spreadsheet if Adacore doesn't want to do it. It would be nice to hear from him first though.
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby ThinkSweet » Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:53 am UTC

MasterOfAll wrote:
ThinkSweet wrote:Having said all that, I don't think there's much that can really be done about it. I guess at the discretion of the mod might work. But seperate lists is a bit much.
Well, I thought the idea was to make it a little easier for a mod to be aware of which players might cause problems by needing to be replaced, and to hopefully discourage players from doing it if they know that others are actually paying attention.

I like both playing and modding games, but I certainly don't follow every game here (or really, follow any game I'm not playing or modding, to be honest). So, I actually would find it useful to have a list to refer to.

I was actually referring to Lataro's suggestion in the OP of different sign up lists for 'quitters'. :P
I don't see anything wrong with keeping a record on google docs though :)
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:08 am UTC

I'll get a google spreadsheet going in the next couple of days...
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby MasterOfAll » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:13 am UTC

Adacore wrote:Yeyeye...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CPKDiJgF

Only updated up to when I made the post in the thread.


@Lataro, can you edit the link into your first post?

I don't think we need to do anything else with this thread, other than have players/mods/whoever update the spreadsheet from time to time.

Mods will know it exists and go looking for it as needed.

Of course, if someone DOES have intentions to work on an update since additional games have ended, saying so in here would be a good idea so that there are not multiple people doing the same thing . . .
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Adacore » Thu Dec 16, 2010 10:03 am UTC

At the moment only MoA and I have edit-level access to the sheet. I could just set it to 'anyone can edit' (but I was worried about random vandals, with the link posted publicly), or I could add people with google accounts if they PM me their gmail addresses. What do you think?
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Re: The Subject Of Replacement Players

Postby Weeks » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:07 am UTC

I suggest access for people with accounts, since you don't need it to be publicly editable.
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