idobox wrote:Hemmers wrote:Sorry, but that's just plain ignorant. First of all, Target Shooting is an Olympic Sport. Secondly, plenty of people shoot live quarry for pest control and food. These are all legitimate uses.
Do you really to have your Target Shooting gun at home? Would it be that difficult to let it at the club?
If a gun is not dangerous, like a BB gun or something, it shouldn't be, and I think isn't, considered a weapon.
Well yeah, because my club has in excess of 100 members, each of whom (on average) own more than 1 firearm.
Do you think it a good idea to aggregate somewhere in the region of 200 rifles in a single building, which has "Rifle Club" stamped on the outside of it?
By contrast, very few people know about the unobtrusive cabinet that sits in the corner of my attic - burglars would pass it by unless they knew what it was. Even if they did break in, the bolt for my rifle is stored separately in my kit bag, not with the rifle or ammo, so it is effectively inert.
My club is actually in a town less than a mile from a Police Station, but many are out in the countryside, in abandoned quarries, etc.
Even if they have a clubhouse (many don't), you then have the issue that to make an armoury even semi secure you would need a monitored alarm (i.e. needs a phone line and electricity, which abandoned quarries typically don't have) because otherwise noone will know if a thief rocks up at 3am and spends a few hours breaking in.
Also, from me, the major local competition range is an hour north. But my club is thirty minutes south. So my two hour round trip has suddenly turned into a 4 hour round trip (because I'm adding half an hour each way to get my gun and the same again to put it away). Not only is that inconvenient, but also expensive - I don't know if you're aware quite how much tax we pay on petrol and diesel in the UK, but it's actually more than the cost of the fuel. Diesel is £1.20/litre at the moment, of which >£0.65 is fuel duty and VAT. Furthermore, I'd have to arrange for one of the committee members to let me in - unlock the armoury, disable the alarm, etc - so I could retrieve and replace it. That's going to get very wearing for the poor committee when you've got lots of members going to different comps and needing access.
idobox wrote:And do you know many people who hunt squirrels with a revolver, or a submachine gun? In France, again, hunters are allowed to own guns with a limit of three rounds in semi-automatic. They are unconeilable, slow, and you only have two or three shots. Clearly not as efficient to kill someone as a pump action, or a AK-47.
And I am not saying all guns should be banned. I'm saying having guns "for self-defence" should be banned. I consider having people wondering with weapons designed to shoot people (so not hunting rifles), bought with the idea they could be used to shoot people (for self-defence), is unsound.
Well you need to make that point more clearly.
In your previous point you were making statements like
"Banning guns won't stop murders, it will make them more difficult."
"...while guns have little use outside shooting people."
Nowhere did you specify that you were arguing against pistols, SMGs or AK-47s.
You were making very broad, sweeping statements about "guns" (by implication "all guns").
As I think we have adequately explained, you were also factually incorrect in your statement that guns have little use outside shooting people.
idobox wrote:Hemmers wrote:CRIMINALS WILL ALWAYS HAVE GUNS
Gangsters will always have guns. Most "small" criminals don't in France (although, they are getting more and more). Because it's risky to have them, and not very useful.
Also, prisons are filled with honest people who lost their tamper or did mistakes. Most of them wouldn't have guns.
My point is that if you wish to acquire a firearm you can. This is irrespective of whether you are a gangster or anything else. Yes, many petty criminals will not go to the effort or risk, but they could if they wanted to. And there is literally nothing that can be done to stop them, because where there is demand there will be supply, even if that means setting up a shed with hobby tools and manufacturing them yourself.
Incidentally, the UK's prisons are full of people who have been convicted of knife crime, or who lost their temper and went to the kitchen in search of a tool that would make a handy weapon. The murders still happen, even though we not only banned guns for self-defence, but also banned pistols for target shooting (despite being an Olympic sport).
idobox wrote:Hemmers wrote:As for "weapons", everyone owns weapons. I have half a dozen within arms reach of me. Presumably you mean a firearm?
You can kill people with a butcher's knife, but a butcher's knife is designed to cut meat. You would be using a tool as a weapon.
You can knock a nail with the handle of a handgun, but a handgun is still designed to shoot people.
Maybe. Or it may be designed for shooting at the Olympics.
This is a Weapon:
This is a piece of Sports Equipment:
One is a weapon, the other is not.
Firearm =/= Weapon
Weapon =/= Firearm
Granted, both could be used as a weapon, but so could a cricket bat or a bow and arrow.
idobox wrote:Finally, if someone broke in, I probably wouldn't fight back. I don't want to get hurt, and I don't want to risk injuring or killing someone. My laptop and my watch are not worth it.
You're assuming that they intruder would not hurt you anyway, and would be content to let you cower in the corner as they take your valuables. That of course is your prerogative as an individual.
I however happen to live on a rural small holding. We have had a recent spate of burglaries in the area with thieves taking farm machinery, riding gear (saddles, etc), quad bikes as well as breaking into the houses for the electronics and other valuables.
This particular group will assault anyone they come across, and on one occasion even stole a car with the owner's young child in the back seat (they fortunately dumped him at the end of the road unharmed. The boy's father was less lucky, having been seriously assaulted when they stole the car).
I don't know if you know what it feels like to know that you are the lucky one, to know that your neigbours have been targetted, and to constantly look twice when you see an unfamiliar van pulled up in a layby near your home. It is deeply distressing.
As far as I am concerned, if they break into my house and come across me or my family they will have no hesitation in doing us harm if they so wish (and if we allow them to). For that reason if I am awoken in the night by the sound of burglars, I will not wait to find out if the dark shapes are armed or not.
I will use the necessary level of force the moment they reach the top of the stairs, and UK law supports me in that.
I should emphasise that I have no desire to kill or injure any person. But I'm not going to allow myself or my loved ones to be harmed just so I can satisfy that desire for non-violence. Downstairs is one thing - I wouldn't risk going down to confront them - but they set a foot on the upstairs landing and they will be firmly rebuked.
Now that's got a bit personal, and I've drifted from the topic somewhat, but the point I'm making is that you assume criminals are only ever after property or valuables.
It is a sad fact that some just enjoy violence. Bored teenagers engaging in "Happy Slapping". Saying "just take my wallet" is no good. They will take your wallet, but after they've beaten the cr@p out of you for kicks.
It shouldn't happen, but it does.
You don't feel that you would ever want to carry a firearm or any other sort of weapon. Fair enough.
That however does not give you the right to make that decision for anyone else.
The FBI estimates that millions of assaults a year are prevented by Right-to-Carry. They have no vested interest in it one way or the other, just whichever system yields lower crime. They are in favour of RTC. That says a lot.