WoWzers!

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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ProZac
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:55 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Unholy DK's in full 346 DUAL WIELDING. DUAL WIELDING IN UNHOLY SPEC FOR FUCK'S SAKE. So much for making specs that are less easy to make mistakes with. Morons will still fuck it up.

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember seeing initial theory crafting that put DW Unholy on par with 2H'ers, with both being one of the best dps specs currently available.
Izawwlgood wrote:I've seen a lot of people rocking their purples still, and I don't really get it.
Honestly, I'm still using my 277 Ashen Verdict Ring and my 264 Tier chest. The chest, I just legitimately have not found a chest upgrade. It's top priority to replace. I know I can get a better ring from Ramhaken, and I'm working my rep up to do it. Also, mastery can be rubbish. It's the worst (relevant) stat for Resto Druids, unless you do a fair bit of tank healing. Even then, it's still only equivalent to crit.

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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:23 pm UTC

That's in BiS heroic raid gear. In all other gear levels 2H unholy trumps DW, and why would anyone take the more troubling gearing route (finding good str one handers and competing against tanks, who will always have priority).

This guy was doing 7-8k DPS at most. It was SAD. Not to mention that DW unholy working at later gear levels is an anomaly that will get fixed eventually since Blizzard made it official that they design Unholy around 2-hand.


Izawwlgood wrote:I wager it'll take you longer to break your set bonuses, but A) mastery isn't rubbish, and B) better gear is better gear man. I'm obviously not swapping over to +agil for my ele shammie, but when something better comes along, take it.

I've seen a lot of people rocking their purples still, and I don't really get it. Yeah you worked long hours for that stuff, but now you're simply wearing it for the cosmetic purposes? Lamesauce. If you're still using 277 items, you're missing out on A LOT.



Stamina being one of them. Which is unacceptable if you're running heroics or raids as you're costing healers more mana by having to babysit you more since you have a less forgiving health threshold, and in turn harming the group by reducing healer efficiency.
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Midnight
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:35 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I wager it'll take you longer to break your set bonuses, but A) mastery isn't rubbish, and B) better gear is better gear man. I'm obviously not swapping over to +agil for my ele shammie, but when something better comes along, take it.

B is definitely correct, and ilevel 312-318 quest greens are definitely better to all WotLK loot outside of shadowmourne. However, I seem to remember reading that mastery is one of the weaker stats for boomkins.
uhhhh fuck.

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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:56 pm UTC

Mastery I suspect will be reworked come 4.1 for several specs.
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mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:10 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:B is definitely correct, and ilevel 312-318 quest greens are definitely better to all WotLK loot outside of shadowmourne.


Yeah... but the models are so bad! And now I have to look at my character :( (RIP Tree form)
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Midnight
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:41 pm UTC

Your tears fuel me.
uhhhh fuck.

mike-l
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:43 pm UTC

Meh, most will be replaced by blues before I hit 85, yay rep items, yay JC trinkets, yay 333 quest items.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby captainwin » Thu Dec 16, 2010 9:57 pm UTC

Sometimes people in heroics can be mercilessly critical and abusive of people they don't even know. As an example, I apparently had 2 tries on the 3rd boss of heroic BRC before everyone abandoned the group. Keep in mind this was the first time I had seen the fight on heroic. Here's how the situation went; I received a half retarded explanation of how to do the fight, messed up the first time (ran him through the lava pillar again too soon after adds spawned), and messed up the second time (debuff fell off because I didn't cut deep enough into the fire pillar). First time we got him to 80%. Second time to around 40%. This group refused to chance wiping again, and all left after slinging a few insults. The worst part was being relentlessly insulted even after the first wipe. I realize this was just one bad experience, but when compared to how I've seen others treated in the groups I've tanked for, I'm starting to see a trend.

It's ashame how one group enthusiastically will want to queue up again even if we wiped a few times on a new encounter, while the next group might despise someone for preventing easy access to video game treasure. The sense of entitlement people have can be infuriating!

On a related note, I've noticed that people who know someone else in the party seem more inclined to berate strangers. Maybe this translates to some social phenomenon of people who are more aggressive and intolerant expressing those traits when they feel protected by a group. I'm not a psychologist, and I'm sure there any number of reasons why people might act unfavorably, but it's just something I've observed.

In all though, I think the bad experiences could be diminished if Blizzard implemented cross realm grouping. I've met many great people and players who I will never see again. It's unfortunate that this is by design.

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Obby
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Obby » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:18 am UTC

captainwin wrote:In all though, I think the bad experiences could be diminished if Blizzard implemented cross realm grouping. I've met many great people and players who I will never see again. It's unfortunate that this is by design.


Er, do you mean if they had never implemented cross realm grouping? Because they currently have cross-realm queues within battlegroups.

But, I know what you mean. I've had some bad heroic PUGs and some great ones. Last night I had a really good H VP. It was me (fire mage) and my buddy (boomkin) grouped with a pally tank, arcane mage, and originally a pally healer who eventually was replaced with a shammy healer. Started off fine with the trash mobs, even with no CC since none of us can CC elementals (which is what all the trash mobs are in the beginning of VP), and we kill the first boss in one go, but only barely (boomkin buddy was the only one left alive at the end). People were understanding, since the only one who had ever been there before on heroic was the tank. Moving along smoothly until the second boss. For some reason, the healer just could not keep us all alive. Healer decides it's not his fault and ragequits after two wipes, with a few choice insults thrown at the tank. Shammy healer joins and we breeze through the rest of the dungeon without too much of a problem, aside from a couple misplaced sheeps on the mobs in the electric triangle parts.

I think it really just comes down to people needing to change the way they play the game. So many people got used to how Wrath was that they don't want to change.
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Izawwlgood
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:27 am UTC

captainwin wrote:On a related note, I've noticed that people who know someone else in the party seem more inclined to berate strangers.

I agree with you 100% here, I've definitely noticed that trend as well.
And ya, most WoW players I've encountered are incredibly juvenile asshats. They're rude, elitist, self-absorbed dicks who think that spending 7 hrs a day grinding for gear makes them a better player than the next dude. I've seen people absolutely berate tanks or healers for minor mishaps, while putting out horrible dps of their own, people with horribly weird specs and no understanding of what abilities they have or should be using. I was in a PUG earlier today with a warrior that wasn't rending prior to thunderclapping, and despite having a point in Warbringer, kept switching to battle stance to Charge. While I was quickly explaining to him how do hold aggro better, the healer quit, and a Hunter pulled a mob.

Meh. Fuck it. Develop a thicker skin while playing this game, because it's by in large not full of intelligent, kind people.
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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:00 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
captainwin wrote:
Meh. Fuck it. Develop a thicker skin while playing this game, because it's by in large not full of intelligent, kind people.



You know where you learn this really fast? By PuG'ing battlegrounds.

As soon as you learn to not take things personally and let them aggravate you, the game suddenly becomes amenable again.

I treat this game akin to how I treat traffic in Miami, FL. Shittiest driver attitudes across the country by and large, but if you laugh it off and let it slip by while thinking about other things it's suddenly not so bad.
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Chen
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Chen » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:56 pm UTC

I haven't even played (or bought) this expansion and I predicted this issue. People have gotten spoiled by the dungeon finder. When it was first introduced you could get almost any group together and easily clear the heroics because they had been nerfed and everyone had good gear (except the ICC ones and people whined like mad about those). People haven't changed. Skill level amongst the players probably hasn't changed very much. The difficulty HAS changed. As such all those people you did dungeons with pre-Cata using the dungeon finder who said nothing are probably the same people now who are bitching and moaning whenever a mistake occurs. The reason is that before those mistakes were unnoticeable because the dungeons were so easy. Now they can cause wipes and the asshats will complain. The expansion has been out for what 10 days? The dungeon finder is going to be a random cesspool of shit until the first round of heroic nerfs come out or until people have geared up so that they can practically faceroll them. Its the nature of the game.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:59 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Meh, most will be replaced by blues before I hit 85, yay rep items, yay JC trinkets, yay 333 quest items.


Ok, I caved immediately after healing my first 85 dungeon... went straight out and got some quest greens to replace the last of my WotLK gear... going through my entire mana pool on every trash pull is insane. (In fact, without CC, the trash is harder than any of the bosses... CC is definitely going to be necessary to get through heroics until healers have more gear)
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Izawwlgood
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:04 pm UTC

My 200 ilevel JC trinkets, socketed with JC only cuts, were replaced by 82. I simply can't imagine trying to cut muster at 85 heroics with purples from WotLK. The blue staff I got from Throne of Tides is significantly better than Abracadaver...

EDIT: Isn't the min ilevel for 85's in the 300s?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:My 200 ilevel JC trinkets, socketed with JC only cuts, were replaced by 82. I simply can't imagine trying to cut muster at 85 heroics with purples from WotLK. The blue staff I got from Throne of Tides is significantly better than Abracadaver...

EDIT: Isn't the min ilevel for 85's in the 300s?


ilvl 329 (for heroics), taking the average ilvl of the best piece you have worn for each slot. But if you have a 333 helm for feral in your inventory and a 264 helm for healing, it will still let you heal. I'm at 328 right now, but my healing set is only 316. As soon as I ding 85 my Therazane rep ring will put me over the 329 limit to random queue, though I'm skeptical if that's a good idea right now :)
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:24 pm UTC

My guild is severely lacking on gear specifically b/c we only have one person brave enough to go in the heroic dungeon finder alone, and he's only managed to complete a single heroic, from I'd imagine 7-8 attempts. Most people just aren't willing to put forth the effort necessary to complete these. I haven't tried yet, but I plan to this weekend. I also plan to keep pushing it until I'm completing them all.
Izawwlgood wrote:
captainwin wrote:On a related note, I've noticed that people who know someone else in the party seem more inclined to berate strangers.

I agree with you 100% here, I've definitely noticed that trend as well.
Almost definitely. My general policy is to avoid any conversation with them. They can bitch and rant all they want, but I'll remain mute. If I'm on my own, and I have something else to do, I'll leave if I can't stand them (for any reason: ignorance, terrible performance, asshattery). If I'm with a guild group, I'll start a votekick, which I've done to a couple people already. I won't lower myself to insulting or arguing though, as that's largely useless.

JudeMorrigan
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:27 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:
mike-l wrote:Meh, most will be replaced by blues before I hit 85, yay rep items, yay JC trinkets, yay 333 quest items.


Ok, I caved immediately after healing my first 85 dungeon... went straight out and got some quest greens to replace the last of my WotLK gear... going through my entire mana pool on every trash pull is insane. (In fact, without CC, the trash is harder than any of the bosses... CC is definitely going to be necessary to get through heroics until healers have more gear)

CC is certainly a big thing, but there's another factor as well. Paying attention to what the mobs are doing makes a huge difference. People need to learn what damaging abilities the various mobs have, and which ones can be mitigated or avoided. For example, just standing there and eating the temple shadowlancers' pact of darkness ability in HoO is neither necessary nor particularly smart. Some of that is simply people not really knowing the instances yet in a lot of cases. I think that some of it though is a lingering attitude from Wrath that it's not necessary to really stress out about what trash mobs are doing.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Oregonaut » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:28 pm UTC

I have a friend I play with all the time, and we're always nice to people. We know we fuck up, we expect others to fuck up. As long as everyone fucks up honestly, and not because they just don't care to try, I don't vote-kick people.

My favorite is the people who decide that because they're the best tank EVAR that they shouldn't consider the fact that our Pally healer may not be able to keep them alive through a crowd-pull of every mob in a twelve mile radius.
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captainwin
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby captainwin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:05 pm UTC

Obby wrote:Er, do you mean if they had never implemented cross realm grouping? Because they currently have cross-realm queues within battlegroups.


I'm hoping they some day implement the ability to /invite Person-NotMyServer to your group. That's what I was trying to say.

In any event, CC in heroics is becoming less and less relevant as gear improves, as others here are suggesting. H GB is a good example, but there can be a number of close calls. I'd mostly attribute this to the fact that most of the dungeon can be trivialized if your group chooses the right targets on the bombing run. If the group CC isn't being reliable, I just say screw it and blow a cooldown on every pull. The healer has to work harder, but it seems to go faster and with fewer deaths.

On a related note, which do any of you prefer:

a.) Paladin pulls with avenger's shield, and runs back about 30ft to stand behind a line of sight obstruction. CCers have about 3 to 5 seconds to handle their marked targets. Mobs, including casters, move in to stack on top of paladin since he has the most threat (though some casters will not obey this rule - such as the Airs in VP). Only the paladin will have mobs on him at this point if none of the CC failed.

b.) CCers pull by following the lead of the initial CCer. CCers have roughly the amount of time it takes the mob to reach the initial CCer since all the mobs will be going for him. Paladin manuvers around the group to herd mobs, which may be attacking a healer or dps at this point. The circumstances are random each time depending on positioning, who created the most threat, and possibly other factors. A variation on this style of pulling would be the paladin using AS after the initial CC. However, this can result in certain types of CC being hit (fear, for example), or slow CC being broken if the paladin is forced to attack a marked target that is about to damage a group member.

Maybe I painted situation a.) with perfect colors, but that's generally what makes sense to me and what has worked in the most successful groups I've tanked for. However, my group last night refused to do that since "they didn't have enough time to CC targets". Even doing it their preferred way, we suffered quite a few CCer deaths because they still couldn't get the CC off in time. At one point I felt they were just being difficult since they easily had 5 seconds to cast on most of the pulls, but still kept complaining that they didn't have enough time. One person even had time to type "can't CC when you pull first bro" DURING THE PULL. I felt like they were playing as if they were the victims of an oppressive tank or some other kind of weird falsehood. In any case, it took us about 2.5 hours to run H GB. Yes, 2.5 hours to run what should have been an hour instance. I think the holdup was the the guy who wanted to mark targets took about 3 minutes per group. Coincidentally, he was the chief complainer and the guy who could never seem to CC anything.

I think I agree with the sentiment that 5% of the time you have a tremendously fun experience with people who are there for the same reasons you are, but the other 95% result in a forum post. Still though, I'm having lots of fun :) If anyone happens to be on Turalyon Horde and wouldn't mind running a few heroics, feel free to send me a tell! My character's name is Berenthor.

Polycronopolis
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Polycronopolis » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:12 pm UTC

Anyone play on US Crushridge, Horde side?

Vivami 82 Cow Priest
Evich 80 Undead Mage
Calastan 80 BElf Paladin

Work has been hell this year so I have only leveled Vivami(Cow priest) to 82 so far but plan to hit 85 during the Christmas break. I'm really enjoying this xpac so far.

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WarDaft
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby WarDaft » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:57 pm UTC

a) by a mile.

There are a few rare occasions where you want to let the CCers pull, in all other cases the tank should pull, and then the DPS should apply any necessary CC.


Also, heroic blues seem to be all it takes to outgear most heroics. I have two sub 346 pieces left, and I usually finish bosses with >70% mana unless people really messed up, or the boss is particularly mean (which probably means people are just messing up in ways I haven't noticed yet.)

I'm mentally kicking myself for not grabbing rep tabards sooner. I could have at least 2 more reps capped by now.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby captainwin » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:01 pm UTC

It's important for people to look over atlas loot and find out which faction has their class appropriate enchant for helm shoulder. For tanks, it's Therazane and Earthen Ring. Thankfully, I got my tabards early and have been racking up rep for the last 20 or so heroics.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby mike-l » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:27 pm UTC

captainwin wrote:It's important for people to look over atlas loot and find out which faction has their class appropriate enchant for helm shoulder. For tanks, it's Therazane and Earthen Ring. Thankfully, I got my tabards early and have been racking up rep for the last 20 or so heroics.


Therazane is everybody's shoulders. By the time you finish stonecore you should be almost revered with them though, and with 7 dailies (8? I can't find an 8th but wowhead lists 8...) it's like 10 days to exalted.. not really worth using the tabard when you can work towards epics with another faction.
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Obby
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Obby » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:Therazane is everybody's shoulders. By the time you finish stonecore you should be almost revered with them though, and with 7 dailies (8? I can't find an 8th but wowhead lists 8...) it's like 10 days to exalted.. not really worth using the tabard when you can work towards epics with another faction.


While that makes sense... dailies blow. I can't stand having to do the one JC daily every day, I can't imagine I'd like having to do extra on top of that.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:34 pm UTC

I'm glad the new JC daily's are just 'hand over 3 cut gems' rather then 'go somewhere and do something stupid and bring it back to me'
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Obby » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:38 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'm glad the new JC daily's are just 'hand over 3 cut gems' rather then 'go somewhere and do something stupid and bring it back to me'

You obviously haven't got the Elemental Goo daily yet.

Fuck that shit.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ProZac » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:58 pm UTC

captainwin wrote:a.) Paladin pulls with avenger's shield, and runs back about 30ft to stand behind a line of sight obstruction. CCers have about 3 to 5 seconds to handle their marked targets. Mobs, including casters, move in to stack on top of paladin since he has the most threat (though some casters will not obey this rule - such as the Airs in VP). Only the paladin will have mobs on him at this point if none of the CC failed.

b.) CCers pull by following the lead of the initial CCer. CCers have roughly the amount of time it takes the mob to reach the initial CCer since all the mobs will be going for him. Paladin manuvers around the group to herd mobs, which may be attacking a healer or dps at this point. The circumstances are random each time depending on positioning, who created the most threat, and possibly other factors. A variation on this style of pulling would be the paladin using AS after the initial CC. However, this can result in certain types of CC being hit (fear, for example), or slow CC being broken if the paladin is forced to attack a marked target that is about to damage a group member.

I've never pulled in the style of (a). Granted, CC in my guild has always been hunters/mages. So, they do their thing, blink/disengage, remaining mobs run to tank, all is good.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:07 am UTC

As alternatively a tank and DPS, I can say... fuck other people. If you are totally incapable of handling the 2nd boss in BRC (the primary mechanic can be reduced down to "stand in front of beam. wait 15 seconds. move 5 feet left. wait 15 seconds. move back into beam. wait 15 seconds. etc") then why the fuck am I being brought down by your incompetence?
So yeah, if someone doesn't cc I say "Okay, why wasn't that cc'd?" or "Why didn't skull die first?" or, after a mage dies, "Why did you attack the mob before it was even within 20 yards of me?"
I swear though, during that BRC fight, we had a lot of melee dps, so I had to stand in the beam cause the enhance shaman jumped in and said "I shouldn't have to deal with a beam; my dps is better than Hype's"... which was proved a lie by the end of the three-hour wipefest that was BRC. The 3rd boss is a killer for sure. Very difficult. The first and last bosses are the easiest.
And if I'm in vortex pinnacle, and you can't avoid getting hit by Altairus' whirlwinds, and you're complaining about where I'm tanking him--even though you can't handle the up/downwind mechanic because you're 30 yards away... basic geometry: the closer you are to a point, the easier you can move upwind and downwind of that point.

There are some assholes though. Like, actual assholes. Not assholes like me who say "stop fucking up please", asshole healers who stop healing you because I point out they have an unspent talent point.


I prefer just pulling and letting CC'ers cc. I hail from a time when hunters couldn't frost trap from range, so you had to just let blue-square slip by you cause you knew it was gonna be trapped.
Now, when something slips by it means a ccer fucked up and I have to fix it.

I feel the biggest problem, with the random dungeon finder especially, is that nobody really respects anyone elses' abilities. If there's a great healer doing great work in an instance, I'll say "damn, son, that was sweet" at the end of a fight. Or I'll say "good dps" or something along those lines. In a random dungeon group you can do the craziest shit, shit that should get you a nobel peace prize, and nobody will mention anything ("cause tanks are supposed to TANK," sayeth angry shaman who doesn't bind elementals even though I said 'bind elementals' repeatedly.")
uhhhh fuck.

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Lucrece
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:45 pm UTC

I'm greatly annoyed by tailoring and Enchanting. At 525 Enchanting, 510 tailoring.

Enchanting's top 525 recipes need maelstrom crystals, which are obtained by disenchanting epics. Except epics can only be accessed by raids now, so you're competing against 9 other people for a maelstrom crystal because for some reason Blizzard had the brilliant idea to give a disenchanting option along with greed/need, fucking enchanters over.

The problem with that is that each fucking 525 recipe needs a maelstrom crystal. And you're not going to get maelstrom crystals because right now everybody's bound to need a pice of raid gear.

By removing epics form the heroics, they've fucked up the accessibility of high end enchants, and virtually murdered PvP'ers/casuals as only raiders will have access to enchanting mats unless you want to pay ~1k gold per maelstrom crystal. The dailies at best give ~400g. Rdepairs from heroics easily eat that up.

And THEN you have the inability to get gems for jp/honor like you were able to before, so now each blue gem will set you back a good 200-300 gold, and a goddamned meta gem 600g.

It's like the entire fucking expansion was made without new players/toons in mind. My ex-mains were on another server, so my new warlock main has no sugar momma. With all the cata zone quests dones, I no longer have a source of disenchantable rewards or significant gold. I'm capped at 400g or stuck farming for a couple of hours to make an item that at best sells for 350g.


Tailoring wins the price for ridiculous, though. The cloth drop rates are bad for the high cloth requirements, and you need so many primals for each craft. When you eventually get to 525, you need 1 Dreamcloth (weekly recipe-- you can get 3-4 by farming 30 of each type of primal and 6 bolts of cloth) to buy a recipe and the cheapest recipe for an epic is 6 other dreamcloth.

So you need 7 fucking dreamcloth for the easiest craft. That will at the fastest be obtained in 2 weeks assuming you farmed the shit out of volatiles for hours on end. And the cloth.


Meanwhile the fucking engineers/blacksmiths/leatherworkers can craft their shit as soon as they get to 525-- independent of weekly cooldowns. They can farm their resources far more easily since they're not subject to absurd random drop rates.

I get so annoyed when people can loot away from me cloth I need to skill up just so they can sell it-- since they don't need it for their craft. It's as if I went to a dungeon and could ninja mining nodes from blacksmiths/JC's just so I can sell the ore.



/rant mode off
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:36 pm UTC

Just wait it out. Eventually people will be geared and need to D/E stuff. If you're in a raiding guild they probably won't let people just get crystals and AH them; they'll put them in the bank so enchanters can enchant.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:36 pm UTC

having a disenchant option is a good idea, I think.

As for the Dreamcloth creation, I wonder, is there something akin to the Northrend Cloth Drop boosting ability you can get in Cata?

I think basically, you have to view all materials, ALL materials, as gold. Allowing people fair chances at getting materials is a good move.

I find it annoying that Inscriptionists have so little to play with aside from scrolls (that I think count as battle elixers anyway).
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ImTestingSleeping » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:49 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I'm greatly annoyed by tailoring and Enchanting. At 525 Enchanting, 510 tailoring.

Enchanting's top 525 recipes need maelstrom crystals, which are obtained by disenchanting epics. Except epics can only be accessed by raids now, so you're competing against 9 other people for a maelstrom crystal because for some reason Blizzard had the brilliant idea to give a disenchanting option along with greed/need, fucking enchanters over.

The problem with that is that each fucking 525 recipe needs a maelstrom crystal. And you're not going to get maelstrom crystals because right now everybody's bound to need a pice of raid gear.

By removing epics form the heroics, they've fucked up the accessibility of high end enchants, and virtually murdered PvP'ers/casuals as only raiders will have access to enchanting mats unless you want to pay ~1k gold per maelstrom crystal. The dailies at best give ~400g. Rdepairs from heroics easily eat that up.

And THEN you have the inability to get gems for jp/honor like you were able to before, so now each blue gem will set you back a good 200-300 gold, and a goddamned meta gem 600g.

It's like the entire fucking expansion was made without new players/toons in mind. My ex-mains were on another server, so my new warlock main has no sugar momma. With all the cata zone quests dones, I no longer have a source of disenchantable rewards or significant gold. I'm capped at 400g or stuck farming for a couple of hours to make an item that at best sells for 350g.


Tailoring wins the price for ridiculous, though. The cloth drop rates are bad for the high cloth requirements, and you need so many primals for each craft. When you eventually get to 525, you need 1 Dreamcloth (weekly recipe-- you can get 3-4 by farming 30 of each type of primal and 6 bolts of cloth) to buy a recipe and the cheapest recipe for an epic is 6 other dreamcloth.

So you need 7 fucking dreamcloth for the easiest craft. That will at the fastest be obtained in 2 weeks assuming you farmed the shit out of volatiles for hours on end. And the cloth.


Meanwhile the fucking engineers/blacksmiths/leatherworkers can craft their shit as soon as they get to 525-- independent of weekly cooldowns. They can farm their resources far more easily since they're not subject to absurd random drop rates.

I get so annoyed when people can loot away from me cloth I need to skill up just so they can sell it-- since they don't need it for their craft. It's as if I went to a dungeon and could ninja mining nodes from blacksmiths/JC's just so I can sell the ore.



/rant mode off


There's a very good reason for all of this. First off, Blizzard wants people to access the pre-raiding blacksmithing/tailoring/leatherworking patterns early. They know that they can put out BETTER patterns later once people outgear those patterns and new content is released.

However, they would much prefer to not have to release new enchants. What they do instead is make the ones they put out very expensive so that you have to really think about what weapon you want to wait for to put it on.

Yes, it will take enchanters awhile to hit the skill max, but that is NOT a bad thing. It makes you that much more valuable if you do make it... :D :D

I think we were "spoiled" in WotLK by getting everything relatively quickly. When my alt hit 80, I was ICC geared in about 4 days. Full 232/245 gear and full enchants. I mean... that SHOULD not happen. It SHOULD take us awhile to reach our goals in the game, or else it gets stale quickly. Don't make it a race and you'll enjoy it more.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Obby » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:31 am UTC

ImTestingSleeping wrote:I think we were "spoiled" in WotLK by getting everything relatively quickly. When my alt hit 80, I was ICC geared in about 4 days. Full 232/245 gear and full enchants. I mean... that SHOULD not happen. It SHOULD take us awhile to reach our goals in the game, or else it gets stale quickly. Don't make it a race and you'll enjoy it more.


I think in that regard, it depends. If ICC had been out for a week or two, and you could still get to full 232/245 gear, then yeah, I agree. But once the content has been out long enough, then I don't really see an issue with being able to gear up to be able to do that content quickly. Enforcing a model where you need to progress through each raid tier to get to the next level just sets up an arbitrary barrier to entry on the highest tier content, and really screws over new players the longer an expansion has been out. I know back in vanilla, if you weren't in a raiding guild by the time AQ came out, it pretty much meant that you weren't ever going to be in one since no guild would ever want to go through ZG, MC and BWL to get you enough gear to be able to raid AQ, especially after having the earlier tiers on farm for months.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby ImTestingSleeping » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:11 am UTC

Obby wrote:I think in that regard, it depends. If ICC had been out for a week or two, and you could still get to full 232/245 gear, then yeah, I agree. But once the content has been out long enough, then I don't really see an issue with being able to gear up to be able to do that content quickly. Enforcing a model where you need to progress through each raid tier to get to the next level just sets up an arbitrary barrier to entry on the highest tier content, and really screws over new players the longer an expansion has been out. I know back in vanilla, if you weren't in a raiding guild by the time AQ came out, it pretty much meant that you weren't ever going to be in one since no guild would ever want to go through ZG, MC and BWL to get you enough gear to be able to raid AQ, especially after having the earlier tiers on farm for months.


I think that's an excellent point, but I think the "emblem-for-heroics" system is flawed. I agree that once higher level content is out, if all appropriate gear to get to that high level content can only be obtained from running previous raid content, then you're shit out of luck basically.

However, Blizzard could've been more creative than "Hey, if you run a bunch of randoms we'll just give you the gear!" I would've liked to have seen a raid mode for the outdated raid content (for WotLK, things like Ulduar, Naxx, etc) which would have some good incentive to be run by people's mains and would also drop tokens which could be turned in for gear for those alts who want to get into the higher content. Maybe, if like 75% of the raid already has the raid achievement for the entire dungeon, then your entire raid can jump to like the last few bosses with the changed loot table I had suggested. The runs should be fast, say 1 hour tops.

Now, what incentive do we give the people who are highest content geared? This could easily be done in Cataclysm by having some sort of guild reward for running the old content (exp? rep? achievements? guild gear? who knows). Whatever it is, it should be good enough that people want to run those older raids on their main EACH week. Maybe have a night where you go back and do all the old raids.

Also, they could keep heroics worthwhile by making the tokens only give gear for certain gear slots. Being able to basically fully gear for the highest raid content from heroics is a mistake imho.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:08 am UTC

ImTestingSleeping wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I'm greatly annoyed by tailoring and Enchanting. At 525 Enchanting, 510 tailoring.

Enchanting's top 525 recipes need maelstrom crystals, which are obtained by disenchanting epics. Except epics can only be accessed by raids now, so you're competing against 9 other people for a maelstrom crystal because for some reason Blizzard had the brilliant idea to give a disenchanting option along with greed/need, fucking enchanters over.

The problem with that is that each fucking 525 recipe needs a maelstrom crystal. And you're not going to get maelstrom crystals because right now everybody's bound to need a pice of raid gear.

By removing epics form the heroics, they've fucked up the accessibility of high end enchants, and virtually murdered PvP'ers/casuals as only raiders will have access to enchanting mats unless you want to pay ~1k gold per maelstrom crystal. The dailies at best give ~400g. Rdepairs from heroics easily eat that up.

And THEN you have the inability to get gems for jp/honor like you were able to before, so now each blue gem will set you back a good 200-300 gold, and a goddamned meta gem 600g.

It's like the entire fucking expansion was made without new players/toons in mind. My ex-mains were on another server, so my new warlock main has no sugar momma. With all the cata zone quests dones, I no longer have a source of disenchantable rewards or significant gold. I'm capped at 400g or stuck farming for a couple of hours to make an item that at best sells for 350g.


Tailoring wins the price for ridiculous, though. The cloth drop rates are bad for the high cloth requirements, and you need so many primals for each craft. When you eventually get to 525, you need 1 Dreamcloth (weekly recipe-- you can get 3-4 by farming 30 of each type of primal and 6 bolts of cloth) to buy a recipe and the cheapest recipe for an epic is 6 other dreamcloth.

So you need 7 fucking dreamcloth for the easiest craft. That will at the fastest be obtained in 2 weeks assuming you farmed the shit out of volatiles for hours on end. And the cloth.


Meanwhile the fucking engineers/blacksmiths/leatherworkers can craft their shit as soon as they get to 525-- independent of weekly cooldowns. They can farm their resources far more easily since they're not subject to absurd random drop rates.

I get so annoyed when people can loot away from me cloth I need to skill up just so they can sell it-- since they don't need it for their craft. It's as if I went to a dungeon and could ninja mining nodes from blacksmiths/JC's just so I can sell the ore.



/rant mode off


There's a very good reason for all of this. First off, Blizzard wants people to access the pre-raiding blacksmithing/tailoring/leatherworking patterns early. They know that they can put out BETTER patterns later once people outgear those patterns and new content is released.

However, they would much prefer to not have to release new enchants. What they do instead is make the ones they put out very expensive so that you have to really think about what weapon you want to wait for to put it on.

Yes, it will take enchanters awhile to hit the skill max, but that is NOT a bad thing. It makes you that much more valuable if you do make it... :D :D

I think we were "spoiled" in WotLK by getting everything relatively quickly. When my alt hit 80, I was ICC geared in about 4 days. Full 232/245 gear and full enchants. I mean... that SHOULD not happen. It SHOULD take us awhile to reach our goals in the game, or else it gets stale quickly. Don't make it a race and you'll enjoy it more.


No, there's no good reason.

The enchants needing maelstrom crystals are not needed to reach 525. I got there already. What's happening is that all that farming and money means shit because unless I raid or buy the crystals from those that were lucky to get some while raiding, I'm screwed and don't get to benefit from being a 525 enchanter, at ALL.

Thinking about where to put the enchants? The progression's very clear. 333>346>359. It's not like you're swapping weapons constantly with so much competition for them.

The problem is spending 6k fucking gold to reach 525 because Enchanters can't farm their mats, and then finding that on top of that 6k gold you know have to wait to either raid and hope nobody needs an epic so you can roll against 9-24 people to get a maelstrom crystal, or you pay upwards of 10k gold in crafted epics just to disenchant them.

They either need to make maelstrom crystals drop from disenchanted heroic loot, or introduce a daily for it.


For tailoring, each goddamned volatile is ~30-50g, and you need 30 of them per dreamcloth recipe. Farming them, in an hour I got 10 at best. With no competition for mobs. Guess who you will buy volatiles from? Any other profession-- alchemists get to transmute volatile life they get from herbing to sell those volatiles in turn.


Every other profession has a fairly reliable way of farming their mats-- except enchanters and tailors, who just NEED to buy mats or armor to disenchant off the AH.


The current system bars anyone who doesn't raid from gaining the best weapon enchants. PvP'ers are screwed, and casuals are screwed.


------



On another note, had a fall out with an officer.

Get this: I buy the mats for a 525 BS belt buckle recipe, go to the guild officer and offer a good tip on top.

This guild officer gets pissy about a 100g tip, wants me to trade him some volatiles or pay him more gold on top of him crafting me something for which he provided no mats and whose craft has no cooldown. Angry that I would assume that he'd craft it for me just to my benefit.

And so this officer "passes" on doing the craft for me. I go to trade chat, ask for a BS, this non-guildie guy offers to make me the buckle at no cost, yet I still tip him, and he tells me no more tips, he'll craft it if I bring him the mats.


I mean, what can be more aggravating when a non-guildie is the one not trying to shake you down for profit? That pondscum of a guild officer really gave me heartburn for the rest of the day.

Mats for the buckle cost at most 300g. The buckles themselves are being sold at 900-1kg. It's a scam, and this guild officer wants to profit that steeply for something he provides no mats for-- because "I paid a lot of money to get to 525 and didn't put myself out there for crafting for the guild".
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Yeah, but miners, skinners and herbies are material GENERATING professions. It makes sense that enchanters, tailors, leatherworkers, blacksmiths, JCs, alchemists and scribes all consume materials. If you're irked that there is no profession that facilitates enchanters or tailors in getting materials, then sorry I misunderstood your grief, but I think that the two of those professions drop from everything/anything (in the form of cloth, which can be turned into stuff to disenchant, or rarer green/blues themselves for disenchanting) means there's already going to be a large flux of player driven materials.

Lucrece wrote:On another note, had a fall out with an officer.

What s turdburgler. I do all my crafting for free for guildies under the conditions you listed. Turning down work out because you thumb your nose at a tip...? That's pretty dick.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:30 am UTC

I pretty much just craft for free regardless.
Spending 6k to level to 525 isn't that ridiculous. If I didn't have a few alts to gather stuff to level alchemy with, I'd've spent way more gold than I did, and I still spent a thousand or two. Farming mats for flasks requires traveling to at least two zones and getting a TON of stuff, as well as counting on luck to net you some volatile life... so the most reliable way is turning green-quality gems into blue-quality gems.
Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, decided that green-quality gems are required for dailies, and you can't cut blues until way high up.
What this means is, it might be 300g to get 3 raw jasper cause it's in demand... and the Dream Emerald it turns into might sell for 80g, unless its cut, and nobody is actually leveling high enough to cut blues because the greens are so expensive, and if they DO buy greens they use them for dailies.

So yeah, thanks to a miner alt and a jc alt I managed to not-spend thousands of gold getting from about 500 to 525, but it doesn't REALLLY matter cause I've made about 15k in the past week.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Lucrece » Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:23 am UTC

Yeah I leveled alch/herb on beta.

The issue is that this lock was a new main on a new server, and i leveled him from 43 to 80 a week before cata. I had to spend a crapload getting profs to 425 during inflated pre-cata prices, buy flying, and then 4k on epic flying because cata is miserable without decent flying.


So I have no sugar momma whatsoever to send gold from, and I already ran out of cata quests as I did all of them for the disenchantable rewards, so my only income is the odd craft for 200-300g and another 400g from dailies. Sitting at 2k after leaving 525 ench/510 tailoring and having had to buy the gems to have my 346 set ready to start raiding by next week.

Simply put, I'm not rich and took it as particularly offensive when this douchebag tried to shake me down out of volatiles (which I didn't have, but would've needed for crafting) when he didn't like the 100g tip, despite the fact that the craft was not costing him a thing.

He just wanted me to pay for his entire expense of leveling the profession to 525, which is just stupid. If investing on his profession is such a source of pissy need to get returns, maybe he shouldn't have blown so much gold leveling it up in the first place.
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:44 am UTC

Why didn't someone warn me that Seed of Corruption is a really shitty spell?
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Re: WoWzers!

Postby Midnight » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:54 am UTC

aren't demo warlocks the best these days?
uhhhh fuck.


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