xkcd

by **Zohar** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:00 am UTC

I think the technology moved pretty damn fast in the show. Going from no aerial units at all to fully functional zeppelins in less than a year is fast. But I don't mind it too much. They wanted a sense of urgency so they put in the comet and that dictated most of the other timelines.

by **Mo0man** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:01 am UTC

Weren't there zepplins 100 years ago when they attacked the Air Nomads? I might be wrong of course

by **Zohar** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:40 am UTC

Hmmm... Maybe you're right. If so, why did they want the war balloon plans so much?

by **animeHrmIne** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Hmmm... Maybe you're right. If so, why did they want the war balloon plans so much?

Stealth, maybe? Those Zeppelins are big and loud. The balloons could hold maybe five people, are powered by Firebending, and are silent. They could easily sneak to more places than the Zeppelins could, especially if they used a more camouflaged design on the balloon.

Probably not though. Maybe it's about cost -- the balloons are probably a lot cheaper to construct.

by **Belial** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:42 pm UTC

Mo0man wrote:Weren't there zepplins 100 years ago when they attacked the Air Nomads? I might be wrong of course

I thought they just climbed. Same as they attempted to do to the southern air temple in the mechanist episode. If they had zeppelins before they got the war balloons, one would wonder why they weren't there.

by **Mo0man** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:46 pm UTC

Never mind, I was just thinking of that trailer to the movie that had them I guess.

by **Sockmonkey** » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

They couldn't have had them before that episode because that's when the mechanist finally figured out how to make them work right.

by **Thadlerian** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:55 pm UTC

Does anyone have any notion on the number of people or characters who die on-screen in Avatar? Can't be more than a handful? It's one of many things that intrigue me about this show - how such a martial arts-oriented story and setting at the same time manages to present such a strong non-violent message. There are so many situations where problems could have been permanently solved with just a little brutality, but the protagonists never fall for the temptation. It's a little frustrating to never see Sokka use his sword for anything his boomerang couldn't have done, but at the same time it's laudable to promote a good ideal so consistently.

by **Box Boy** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:12 pm UTC

I'm glad that they never went outright brutal and killed anyone they felt they wanted to, and instead kept it to when it had to happen and they had no other choice. (During the finale when they threw all those soldiers into the ocean to drown by downing the balloons, for example)
I kinda was annoyed by Aang not finishing off the Fire Lord at the end though, because that just reeks of irresponsibility to me.

by **Izawwlgood** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:19 pm UTC

I don't think anyone dies by violence in the entire series actually, save Iroh's son.
Even the downed soldiers in the war blimps float to the surface, which in my opinion, means someone will come and safely pick them up.

by **Box Boy** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:41 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Even the downed soldiers in the war blimps float to the surface, which in my opinion, means someone will come and safely pick them up.

They're in the middle of the ocean wearing heavy armour and unable to use their bending while their army is being decimated and their king is being defeated. It would be a miracle if Zuko and the combined Earth/Water forces managed to crown him the new Fire Lord after two days, and then restored order fully after a month, so I doubt anyone even remembers them and their plight for at least a week, and managed to launch a rescue after another day (If they even DID launch a rescue attempt, which I find doubtful considering that they're all soldiers who not only support the old regime but were on their way to conquer the world).
They're dead, as far as I'm concerned.

by **Thadlerian** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:59 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't think anyone dies by violence in the entire series actually,

For the record, I can think of two:

Spoiler:

and

Spoiler:

save Iroh's son.

That was before the series started, and off-screen, and that's quite another matter. All the airbenders, for example. Particularly Aang's mentor, who's found on top of a pile of fire nation soldiers.

by **Xeio** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:35 pm UTC

Well, you have to remember that it's still a show on Nickelodeon, they purposefully avoid people dying on-screen.

Hell, Jet's death was explicitly ambiguous, they even made fun of it in the Ember Island Play (I think that's what it was called?) episode. And Zao was "we won't be seeing this bad guy again...", even if it's heavily implied he probably died.

by **NecklaceOfShadow** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:42 am UTC

We're kind of forgetting a pretty important figure in this whole "dying" list.

Spoiler:

by **Izawwlgood** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:44 am UTC

Yeah, I think the above mentioned dude is the only guy whose death is unambiguous.

Box Boy wrote:They're in the middle of the ocean wearing heavy armour and unable to use their bending while their army is being decimated and their king is being defeated.

They're off-shore. You think Sokka would do the whole 'lower the airship and dump them in the ocean from 20 ft up' if it wasn't implied that they were going to live? You can take armor off, and presumably, they just swam to shore. Also, what makes you think they can't use their bending? It's fucking Comet Day.

by **Sockmonkey** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:23 am UTC

Zuko once used his bending to melt ice while he was underwater.
Heh, Fucking Comet Day. Izzy, I love ya man.
Yeah, the ones that bend could rocket to shore no problem and bring back rowboats or something.

by **Joeldi** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:35 am UTC

I'm using the definition of on screen here to mean 'unambigiously implied, but discretion shot used', because there's no way we'd ever see any blood and guts

Another example (that I think was mentioned earlier in the thread) was the firebenders that fell off the cliffs in The Northern Air Temple.
Same goes for everyone else who drowned when the water spirit got mad.
Oh, and Yue. Yes, she ascended, but she died in order to.

Izawwlgood wrote:Yeah, I think the above mentioned dude is the only guy whose death is unambiguous.

Kya is killed pretty explicitly.

And that dictator that fell of the cliff in Kyoshi's time. We see him fall off the cliff, and that's the closest to onscreen we'll ever get, I think.

Box Boy wrote:They're in the middle of the ocean wearing heavy armour and unable to use their bending while their army is being decimated and their king is being defeated.

They're off-shore. You think Sokka would do the whole 'lower the airship and dump them in the ocean from 20 ft up' if it wasn't implied that they were going to live? You can take armor off, and presumably, they just swam to shore. Also, what makes you think they can't use their bending? It's fucking Comet Day.

Okay, some of them may have survived, maybe even most, but certainly not all.

by **Izawwlgood** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:49 am UTC

I'll absolutely grant you the dictator, although, again, his death is off screen, and by proxy (even though Kyoshi says and understands it was her doing, she didn't, you know, smote him with avatar powers, as much as start a slow rock slide he didn't get out of the way of). Yue too.

But 'drowning victims'? Seriously? The boats just get pushed back. Remember, it's a kids show; phenomenal cosmic awesome powers of fire blasting bad assery just means people get pushed back and grunt. I'm under the impression that every time someone gets pushed under a huge force of bending power, they're just sort of shoved backwards. I think at one point, Toph runs through a crowd, and earthbends huge slates of stone onto people. She then apologizes, as they grumble at the inconvenience of having multiple ton sheets of rock slammed on them. Because you know, they had lunch plans that totally would have to wait now.

by **el_loco_avs** » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:35 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'll absolutely grant you the dictator, although, again, his death is off screen, and by proxy (even though Kyoshi says and understands it was her doing, she didn't, you know, smote him with avatar powers, as much as start a slow rock slide he didn't get out of the way of). Yue too.

But 'drowning victims'? Seriously? The boats just get pushed back. Remember, it's a kids show; phenomenal cosmic awesome powers of fire blasting bad assery just means people get pushed back and grunt. I'm under the impression that every time someone gets pushed under a huge force of bending power, they're just sort of shoved backwards. I think at one point, Toph runs through a crowd, and earthbends huge slates of stone onto people. She then apologizes, as they grumble at the inconvenience of having multiple ton sheets of rock slammed on them. Because you know, they had lunch plans that totally would have to wait now.

It's like the A-team and their guns. They never actually try to hit PEOPLE! That would be wrong!

by **Sockmonkey** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:12 pm UTC

el_loco_avs wrote:It's like the A-team and their guns. They never actually try to hit PEOPLE! That would be wrong!

Toph as B.A. Baracus is full of win and giggles.

by **Izawwlgood** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:21 pm UTC

Sockmonkey wrote:
el_loco_avs wrote:It's like the A-team and their guns. They never actually try to hit PEOPLE! That would be wrong!
Toph as B.A. Baracus is full of win and giggles.

She's way scarier.

by **Belial** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:56 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:But 'drowning victims'? Seriously? The boats just get pushed back.

Actually, they got swept out in a massive wave. And then a few episodes later "Remember when you destroyed the fire navy?" or something similar.

I'm guessing the ships didn't survive their high-speed journey.

Basically, though, I generally assume that DiMartino and Konietzko were making a more mature show than they were technically billed as, and they just pulled the on-screen punches to avoid trouble. So if I find myself asking "wait, could those nameless grunts have survived all that?" the answer I generally give myself is "nope".

by **Izawwlgood** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:22 pm UTC

Meh. I agree the show was more mature than something that typically airs on Nickelodeon, but disagree with your assessment that people were dying int he midst of that stuff. There's simply to much evidence of absurd bending might resulting in people just getting pushed back or the like.

For example, Azula lightening bolts two main characters. LIGHTENING BOLTS. And nothing worse then a groan causing bruise appears. Sword fights only result in nipped hair, and Toph who can bend metal, only ever binds people to walls or such.

Nah, I don't think many people die in the series, and I don't think the nameless grunts do either. When Sokka dumps the zeppelins soldiers in the ocean, we even have a bit of comedy, it being some coal shoveler's birthday.

by **Belial** » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:47 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Meh. I agree the show was more mature than something that typically airs on Nickelodeon, but disagree with your assessment that people were dying int he midst of that stuff. There's simply to much evidence of absurd bending might resulting in people just getting pushed back or the like.

Main characters, who are basically all extremely competent warriors and who are being caught aware. Main characters usually survive things that kill faceless stormtroopers

For example, Azula lightening bolts two main characters. LIGHTENING BOLTS. And nothing worse then a groan causing bruise appears.

You, uhh...remember that she killed aang, right?

by **Sprocket** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:51 am UTC

I did find Ang's whole "I don't want to kill anyone" bit a little odd at the end, cuz there were so many situations where the people they were fighting were obviously clearly and completely just dying. At the same time I like how even the old lamas of the past were telling him to kill Long feng, and he still stuck to his beliefs. I think that kind of thing might be very important for children to hear these days, even when your authority figures are telling you to do something you feel deeply is wrong, you should listen to yourself.

by **Sockmonkey** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:04 am UTC

There was a psychological difference in that he knew beforehand that he would have to use deadly force to stop Ozai, as opposed to other times where there just the possibility that his attacks might be fatal. I don't count the avatar state moments of the first two seasons since those happened by reflex and he couldn't controll it.

by **Ginger** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:29 am UTC

Ozai's punishment was perfect to me. So you think you're awesome and this world is your toy, eh? Well, have yourself some depowering and a prison cell. That'll help you think things over. I was originally disappointed with Aang's decision myself until I thought of the whole thing in that light.

by **Box Boy** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:36 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Ozai's punishment was perfect to me. So you think you're awesome and this world is your toy, eh? Well, have yourself some depowering and a prison cell. That'll help you think things over. I was originally disappointed with Aang's decision myself until I thought of the whole thing in that light.

"What's that, you have numerous supporters spread across the entire Fire Nation and world loyal to you unto death and are a great strategist capable of manipulating the various rogue factions that shall soon develop against Zuko and those who don't follow you from years of ruling half the world? And you're also an accomplished fighter and soldier who can literally promise people near anything they want for their aid without sounding like you're full of shit due to your insane amounts of charisma and potential and current power/influence you possess?
Well then I shall take away your powers with a method I JUST learned and have NOT yet mastered from a spirit-world creature I JUST met that may or may not be reversible, effectively permanently taking away one of your senses and ensuring you shall hate me with the burning fury of a thousand stars forever, and lock you up tightly in a maximum security prison surrounded by hundreds of guards who it is impossible to fully check the backgrounds of and most likely come from the military and once served you to the point they would gladly die for your honour alone!
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!"

It doesn't matter to me that it appears to have worked, it was still a damn stupid decision IMHO, even taking into account Aang's political naivety, and if Zuko didn't have the savvy to have Ozai secretly killed in jail somehow as soon as he got there I'll be disappointed in him.

by **NecklaceOfShadow** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:11 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:
Ginger wrote:Ozai's punishment was perfect to me. So you think you're awesome and this world is your toy, eh? Well, have yourself some depowering and a prison cell. That'll help you think things over. I was originally disappointed with Aang's decision myself until I thought of the whole thing in that light.

"What's that, you have numerous supporters spread across the entire Fire Nation and world loyal to you unto death and are a great strategist capable of manipulating the various rogue factions that shall soon develop against Zuko and those who don't follow you from years of ruling half the world? And you're also an accomplished fighter and soldier who can literally promise people near anything they want for their aid without sounding like you're full of shit due to your insane amounts of charisma and potential and current power/influence you possess?
Well then I shall take away your powers with a method I JUST learned and have NOT yet mastered from a spirit-world creature I JUST met that may or may not be reversible, effectively permanently taking away one of your senses and ensuring you shall hate me with the burning fury of a thousand stars forever, and lock you up tightly in a maximum security prison surrounded by hundreds of guards who it is impossible to fully check the backgrounds of and most likely come from the military and once served you to the point they would gladly die for your honour alone!
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW!?!"

It doesn't matter to me that it appears to have worked, it was still a damn stupid decision IMHO, even taking into account Aang's political naivety, and if Zuko didn't have the savvy to have Ozai secretly killed in jail somehow as soon as he got there I'll be disappointed in him.

If Zuko lacks the political savvy to realize that Aang and Iroh will start causing far more troubles than they're worth if he has Ozai killed, I'll be disappointed in him.

Ozai had nowhere near the charisma you're giving him. He had a rash, unthinking personality and he was more geared towards explosive violence than anything. He shows a complete lack of tact in almost everything he does in the series.

As weird as it is to say this, the spiritbending was probably the best way to end the series. It fits in with Aang's naïveté and prior characterization, it avoids the gruesome death issue with the kiddies watching, it expands the variety of the Avatar world and leaves tons of new possibilities for the fanfic writers later on. It works.

by **Izawwlgood** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:18 pm UTC

Belial wrote:You, uhh...remember that she killed aang, right?

Uh, no? She knocked him out and fucked him up, but evidently a shot of lightening to the back only causes a nasty burn and a few days of bed rest.

Belial wrote:Main characters, who are basically all extremely competent warriors and who are being caught aware. Main characters usually survive things that kill faceless stormtroopers

Except my point is the faceless stormtroopers are surviving stuff that should kill normal humans; i.e., having huge slates of rock thrown ontop of them, having searing flames toss the tanks they're inside of around, and in all this, you always get a brief shot of them crawling away, groaning, but alive.

Box Boy wrote:It doesn't matter to me that it appears to have worked, it was still a damn stupid decision IMHO, even taking into account Aang's political naivety, and if Zuko didn't have the savvy to have Ozai secretly killed in jail somehow as soon as he got there I'll be disappointed in him.

I thought it was very Dues Ex LionTurtle, but it's a pretty common trope in stories like this to have the hero master some power over the power itself, and use it, in the end, to remove the villains strength. It is also mentioned that Aang cannot simply kill Ozai, and have Zuko or Iroh take the throne, because that would simply be more blood shed and more power struggles, and they needed history to mark the occasion as something new. Ergo, Aang, the lost Avatar needed to face Ozai, the disruptor of the world's balance, and stop him. That Aang chose to not kill him, but instead render him powerless shows that Aang is unique still among the Avatars.

by **Ginger** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:48 pm UTC

Box Boy wrote:
Ginger wrote:Ozai's punishment was perfect to me. So you think you're awesome and this world is your toy, eh? Well, have yourself some depowering and a prison cell. That'll help you think things over. I was originally disappointed with Aang's decision myself until I thought of the whole thing in that light.
It doesn't matter to me that it appears to have worked, it was still a damn stupid decision IMHO, even taking into account Aang's political naivety, and if Zuko didn't have the savvy to have Ozai secretly killed in jail somehow as soon as he got there I'll be disappointed in him.

I agree that Ozai as he was written wouldn't be a good prisoner. But then I'd be more afraid of Azula (But I would say that) on that count, seeing as how she at least hasn't had her chance yet and is more charismatic than her dad when tempers get heated. It was a good dramatic ending and a fitting punishment for the villain though. I also think that if Ozai ever wants to get out he'll change his tune for Zuko's sake.

by **Belial** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Uh, no? She knocked him out and fucked him up, but evidently a shot of lightening to the back only causes a nasty burn and a few days of bed rest.

Katara used the spirit-spring water with hell of healing power to basically stop him dying (or to resuscitate him, depending on how you interpret that scene). Without the most potent healing in the world, it's pretty clear he was gone.

Izawwlgood wrote:Except my point is the faceless stormtroopers are surviving stuff that should kill normal humans; i.e., having huge slates of rock thrown ontop of them, having searing flames toss the tanks they're inside of around, and in all this, you always get a brief shot of them crawling away, groaning, but alive.

Except when they don't. Nobody climbed out of the snowbanks when aang buried the northern air temple invasion force under snow. And the fleet that invaded the northern water tribe capital was later explicitly stated to be destroyed.

And for on-screen deaths, it's hard to beat Zhao. There's pretty much no way he lived, unless we're assuming that the spirit of the entire bloody ocean decided to get tender and merciful at the last second with the guy who murdered its lover.

by **Izawwlgood** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:26 pm UTC

Yeah, I'll grant you Zhao. Not killed by a protagonist, but still, dude most likely didn't just get wet.

Belial wrote:Katara used the spirit-spring water with hell of healing power to basically stop him dying (or to resuscitate him, depending on how you interpret that scene). Without the most potent healing in the world, it's pretty clear he was gone.

I dunno, as with most examples of healing in the series, I got the impression it was simply potently expediting his recovery.

I'm also pretty sure it wasn't implied that Aang was going to die. He was unconcious, kind of injured, but he was breathing.

Belial wrote:Except when they don't. Nobody climbed out of the snowbanks when aang buried the northern air temple invasion force under snow. And the fleet that invaded the northern water tribe capital was later explicitly stated to be destroyed.

Okay, so those are examples of us not seeing the recovery of people, and thus likely killed. I'll grant you those two as well. What of the countless people Toph buries under tons of stone, or metal bends into things, that sit around groaning, or the Fire Nation troopers that simply crawl out of having their tanks tossed a few hundred feet by pillars of roaring fire? Or why did Sokka lower the airship to dump the Fire Nation workers, if they were going to die at sea anyway? It all points to an overarching theme of non-lethal violence.

by **Box Boy** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:11 pm UTC

NecklaceOfShadow wrote:If Zuko lacks the political savvy to realize that Aang and Iroh will start causing far more troubles than they're worth if he has Ozai killed, I'll be disappointed in him.

.....where did you get this from?
I can honestly see very, very few ways for either to cause any major issues for Zuko, let alone enough that the trouble of killing them and dealing with the results would be worth it. Unless he seriously strays from his current path and starts turning into another villain I rally can't see any of them getting into anything more than a heated disagreement on something like, say, whether or not Fire Nation citizens who have lived in the Earth Kingdom for more than a generation should be relocated or not.

NecklaceOfShadow wrote:Ozai had nowhere near the charisma you're giving him. He had a rash, unthinking personality and he was more geared towards explosive violence than anything. He shows a complete lack of tact in almost everything he does in the series.

He's beloved by his people due to generations of ingrained and socially encouraged xenophobia and because they like him (whether this is because his fiery, passionate and violent nature was considered to be admirable or because he was just the king would differ from person to person), and he was obviously good enough at manipulating court politics to avoid any rebellions or nobles trying to rise against him.
I'd say he's fairly charistmatic, and good at manipulating people, but just lacks strategic abilites, which is why he relied on people like Azula and Zhao to win him his wars on the field while he covered the home base.

NecklaceOfShadow wrote:As weird as it is to say this, the spiritbending was probably the best way to end the series. It fits in with Aang's naïveté and prior characterization, it avoids the gruesome death issue with the kiddies watching, it expands the variety of the Avatar world and leaves tons of new possibilities for the fanfic writers later on. It works.

Izawwlgood wrote:I thought it was very Dues Ex LionTurtle, but it's a pretty common trope in stories like this to have the hero master some power over the power itself, and use it, in the end, to remove the villains strength. It is also mentioned that Aang cannot simply kill Ozai, and have Zuko or Iroh take the throne, because that would simply be more blood shed and more power struggles, and they needed history to mark the occasion as something new. Ergo, Aang, the lost Avatar needed to face Ozai, the disruptor of the world's balance, and stop him. That Aang chose to not kill him, but instead render him powerless shows that Aang is unique still among the Avatars.

I'm not saying it was a bad way to end the series, I'm used to Deus ex Machinas and worked in universe, I'm just saying that it was really, really naive of Aang to spare him because he couldn't handle killing one person directly, which is his only reason for doing so. He doesn't show, as far as I can see, any other motivation besides not wanting to kill someone to stick to a moral code he's already broken (If you count manslaughter, which I do) quite a lot. I just don't think he had any good reasons for sparing Ozai and was thrown the Idiot Ball for that moment, which is more important than his idea working to me.

Ginger wrote:I agree that Ozai as he was written wouldn't be a good prisoner. But then I'd be more afraid of Azula (But I would say that) on that count, seeing as how she at least hasn't had her chance yet and is more charismatic than her dad when tempers get heated. It was a good dramatic ending and a fitting punishment for the villain though.

I'm also a bit miffed that she wasn't offed, but I can understand sparing her as she's got next to no allies after her stint as ruler, can have her bending removed easily and is so insane that her tactical abilities have been shot to shreds, making her pretty much a non-threat unless used as a martyr by loyalists, in which case her death would help.

by **Ginger** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:46 pm UTC

She wasn't ever crowned Fire Lady that I know of. So her stint as a... princess--which she already was--I guess? LOL I dunno. Being "insane" (I really don't think that word is so great to describe people) also isn't something you can never come back from. I think Zuko's point of not killing them off quietly was that it wouldn't do any good in the sense of breaking the cycle of abuse within the family. You can't make Ozai or Azula nice so the least you can do is just not do what they would have done in your place. Which, yes, the heroes fail at in this show too.

EDITED: Speaking of: Azula got tossed the Idiot Ball in that entire scene. No way she doesn't know about the damn river. She lived in the palace her whole life! C'mon.

by **Box Boy** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:40 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:She wasn't ever crowned Fire Lady that I know of. So her stint as a... princess--which she already was--I guess? LOL I dunno.

Didn't Ozai crown her Fire Lady during the finale? But yeah, I should have said "during the time between the final and Mai/Ty Lee's betrayal"

Ginger wrote:Being "insane" (I really don't think that word is so great to describe people) also isn't something you can never come back from.

But it does mean she can't really do anything from her cell like Ozai could, as no-one would listen to the 'Crazy One's' ranting and raving and such. Plus, even if it's not permanent, it does still give her quite a bad rep amongst those in the know, who'd most likely be the ones who matter.

Ginger wrote:I think Zuko's point of not killing them off quietly was that it wouldn't do any good in the sense of breaking the cycle of abuse within the family. You can't make Ozai or Azula nice so the least you can do is just not do what they would have done in your place. Which, yes, the heroes fail at in this show too.

Y'see, if Iwas ruler, I'd put the good of the nation and world at large above breaking any cycles of abuse in my family from my time, because as the ruler it's what he's meant to do. (serve the people, not himself) I just don't think Zuko should have let something like that prevent him from having Ozai, I don't know, assigned a guard who hates his guts and will kill him given the chance by 'accident'. I can sort of see him letting it affect his handling of Azula however, because, as I've previously stated, she's no longer a real threat.

by **Ginger** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:52 pm UTC

Ozai told her to guard the Fire Nation and made her Fire Lord/Fire Lady (I think he used the male pronoun but forget that "Lady" is cooler for an actual lady) but the coronation ceremony had yet to take place before Zuko and Katara came down. As far as Azula having a bad reputation for being "crazy," I agree... but I'm not convinced that some smart loyalist couldn't martyr her by more than just death. A puppet leader for a distracting rebellion perhaps? But I'm aware that Azula isn't a goddess and is only a kid besides so you're probably right. *Grumbles.*

I don't think Zuko feels that his obligations to his country conflict with saving his family. He also keeps him around in case he spills about Ursa. But ultimately whether this is a flaw in his ability to lead is unclear as best as I can see. I honestly don't think that Ozai poses much of a threat himself, perhaps even by choice (Loudly railing against your captor when he's just taken over is silly). I think it's better for Zuko to display some selfishness because that makes him a more interesting character. It's also not straying from his established personality in my opinion.

by **Box Boy** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:55 pm UTC

Eh, suppose in the end it doesn't really matter, as it's down to your own interpretation of the character (I will agree that what he did as more in character, however.)

by **Xeio** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:50 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:EDITED: Speaking of: Azula got tossed the Idiot Ball in that entire scene. No way she doesn't know about the damn river. She lived in the palace her whole life! C'mon.

Maybe, but to say the least she wasn't thinking clearly during that entire debacle to begin with.

by **Ginger** » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:00 pm UTC

That's my contention: Sudden episodes of mental illness don't make you incapable of recognizing landmarks that are common knowledge. Plus, it's Sozin's Comet Spectacular. She breathed fire out her ears. Zuko melted ice from beneath the water didn't he? If so then Azula could've melted the ice block even if Katara did get her.

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