So Long Tevatron...

[jazznaz]

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... tml?ref=ra

The search by U.S. physicists for the most coveted particle of all, the so-called Higgs boson, will come to an end in September.

Researchers working at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory (Fermilab) in Batavia, Illinois, had been pushing to run their 25-year-old atom smasher, the Tevatron, through 2014 in hopes of spotting the Higgs before their European counterparts could discover it with their newer, more-powerful atom smasher. But today, officials at the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), which funds Fermilab, conveyed word to lab officials that DOE cannot come up with the additional $35 million per year to keep the Tevatron going.

I think it's a shame for the US that it's unlikely to be a US collider that verifies the Higgs Mechanism. Even with budgetary restrictions being as tight as they are, I can't help but feel there's plenty more great science that could be done at the Tevatron.

Still, gives us Europeans a chance to go for the glory.

[The Reaper]

we need mad scientist programmers to just cobble together a giant simulation of the giant simulation of the beginning of the universe.

[Arancaytar]

Man, so Fermilab sabotaging the LHC with those faulty magnets was completely pointless.

(Kidding! )

[scarecrovv]

Well... shit.

[H2SO4]

I, at first, was a little confused by the first line of the article. It made me think that *all* physicists were giving up on the existence of the Higgs-Boson due to not being able to find it, not that physicists at the Tevatron were giving up on looking for it because they can't compete with the LHC. Then I realized I had skipped over the "U.S." part.

[Pez Dispens3r]

I, at first, was a little confused by the first line of the article. It made me think that *all* physicists were giving up on the existence of the Higgs-Boson due to not being able to find it, not that physicists at the Tevatron were giving up on looking for it because they can't compete with the LHC. Then I realized I had skipped over the "U.S." part.

Yeah, it was a dumb line. It's difficult to parse, and I'm sure there are a few US physicists working on the LHC. I guess it's hard to make the retirement of the Tevatron sound snappy.

[Mother Superior]

"'Kay boys, we've had the Tevatron for some time now, but times are changing. The US needs something new for the "coolest named piece of science equipment ever"-competition, and I think I'm on to a winner here:"

[Nomic]

Suppose they could just build a bigger collider, but it would be kinda pointless since they cost so much and we already have the LHC.

[Zamfir]

Yeah, it was a dumb line. It's difficult to parse, and I'm sure there are a few US physicists working on the LHC.

I never understood this. Why do Americans want to have their own collider?

CERN is an international program, and people from all participating countries work on it, including loads of Americans. Yet, for years and years the US physics community sends out messages that sound as if the US is in competition with the LHC, and that they will lose (in some unspecified sense) if they don't get more money for their own collider.

Is it just PR to get more funding by appealing to nationalism? Or are they serious about competition? If so, why?

Is there some institutional bias against Americans in CERN, so that they really want their own system? Or do they at least perceive CERN as biased? Or are some there genuine disadvantages to having the collider in Switzerland?

[Gelsamel]

I don't think it's "The Americans" so much as those particular researchers at the Tevatron who are looking for the higgs there.

Edit: Especially considering that they defunded it.

[Deep_Thought]

I never understood this. Why do Americans want to have their own collider?

Because whoever is in charge of the collider that makes the final discovery will try to take as much of the credit as they can possibly get away with. CERN is a massive international collaboration, particularly as the data processing is taking place at hundreds of universities around the world. But that doesn't matter to the politicians who fund these things, as they want to be able to claim "[insert country name here] science" rather than just "science".

CERN is an international program, and people from all participating countries work on it, including loads of Americans. Yet, for years and years the US physics community sends out messages that sound as if the US is in competition with the LHC, and that they will lose (in some unspecified sense) if they don't get more money for their own collider.
Is it just PR to get more funding by appealing to nationalism? Or are they serious about competition? If so, why?

They do lose in the sense that much of the money for these big projects will be spent locally. Yes, various components of CERN had to be ordered from Fermilab anyway, but just think of how many scientists work at CERN on a daily basis - they all need a home etc. A non-trivial amount of money is spent on these big projects and great deal of it locally. They are also serious about competition because they want to be the scientist who's name goes down forever as "the discoverer of the Higg's Boson". Science these days is all about collaboration, but that doesn't stop someone (or a small group) at the top claiming all the credit. There is rather a lot of ego involved in top-flight science.

Is there some institutional bias against Americans in CERN, so that they really want their own system? Or do they at least perceive CERN as biased? Or are some there genuine disadvantages to having the collider in Switzerland?

None that I can think of. You could perhaps argue that the supply chain for a couple of components is longer, or that it's harder to attract scientists who only speak English (I think when I looked at the CERN applications site that being fluent in French was a definite benefit), but both of those spin both ways.

[nitePhyyre]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

[Endless Mike]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

I'm not an expert on colliders, but I can't help but think that having multiple running would allow multiple experiments to be run concurrently.

[Griffin]

And its often a good idea to conduct tests in slightly different environments to confirm results. There's a lot more potential for error with only one collider.

[Dauric]

And its often a good idea to conduct tests in slightly different environments to confirm results. There's a lot more potential for error with only one collider.

As long as both pieces of equipment are capable of the same tests. I believe most of the point of the LHC is that it's a much larger collider that can attain much higher speeds than Fermilab's Tevatron.

[Jahoclave]

Man, so Fermilab sabotaging the LHC with those faulty magnets was completely pointless.

(Kidding! )

Yeah, I was going to say, at least the Tevatron, you know, doesn't break every time they turn it on.

[Glass Fractal]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

There was just a proposal by some group to build a whole bunch of smaller colliders to use in work other than bleeding edge particle physics. Apparently the advantage over the LHC and RHIC is that the waiting period for trying a new experiment on small colliders is closer to days rather than months or years.

[Azrael]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

Absolutely. There is a lot more research that [needs to / should be / can be] done in particle physics besides finding the Higgs. While that might be the highest priority, and require the largest system, it's not the only thing to do.

I will admit that it doesn't make too much sense to duplicate on Higgs. While confirmation is certainly good, there's no telling that the Tevatron could even match LHC's findings. It is entirely possible that tightening budgets combined with a poor justification from Fermi (i.e. playing up Higgs rather than everything else we could be doing while LHC is busy for the next ... forever) could have lead decision makers to a perfectly reasonable decision given their inputs.

I still think it's the *wrong* decision, but...

[StNowhere]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

You need another reason?

[broken_escalator]

Man, so Fermilab sabotaging the LHC with those faulty magnets was completely pointless.

(Kidding! )

Yeah, I was going to say, at least the Tevatron, you know, doesn't break every time they turn it on.

It's a feature!

[Jahoclave]

Outside of competition, does it even make sense to have multiple colliders operating at a time?

You need another reason?

Exactly, now where's my fucking fast ass train that goes from nowhere to nowhere? Damnit America, we can't let them Frenchies have faster trains than us!

[H2SO4]

Or the Japanese. Actually, I'm okay with the Japanese having better technology. It's their pact they made with the devil: Be 20 years ahead of everyone technologically, but have real-life people dressed up like over-stylized cartoons be normal in society.

Though I would appreciate some nuclear reactors... the French have those like crazy.

[Hawknc]

Actually, I'm okay with the Japanese having better technology. It's their pact they made with the devil: Be 20 years ahead of everyone technologically, but have real-life people dressed up like over-stylized cartoons be normal in society.

Wait, which one of these is the bad thing?

[Gelsamel]

I thought it was the aging population, suicide rate, and fucked up judicial system that were the downsides...

[Zamfir]

Or the Japanese. Actually, I'm okay with the Japanese having better technology. It's their pact they made with the devil: Be 20 years ahead of everyone technologically, but have real-life people dressed up like over-stylized cartoons be normal in society.

Though I would appreciate some nuclear reactors... the French have those like crazy.

Japan has reactors like crazy too. In fact, General Electric and Westinghouse are the main reactors builders from the US and both are Japanese-owned, because in the past decades they were the only ones willing to buy reactor builders (or accept them for free)

[Deep_Thought]

Japan has reactors like crazy too. In fact, General Electric and Westinghouse are the main reactors builders from the US and both are Japanese-owned, because in the past decades they were the only ones willing to buy reactor builders (or accept them for free)

Yup, although bizarrely Westinghouse was owned by BNFL, and hence the UK Government, between 1998 and 2005. Then they sold it just as the UK realised a new set of Nukes might be a good idea...

[Zamfir]

Yup, although bizarrely Westinghouse was owned by BNFL, and hence the UK Government, between 1998 and 2005. Then they sold it just as the UK realised a new set of Nukes might be a good idea...

I have never been able to figure out BNFL. It was one of those typical results of 1990s British privatization-gone-mad era. All kinds of random parts of the British nuclear sector thrown in a bag and sort-of made a private company, but not really. Then they bought Westinghouse and ABB for no clear reason at all, and then they started selling every part of themselves again.

[Me321]

35 million a year, I think the US can find that somewhere, should'nt be too hard.

[Jahoclave]

35 million a year, I think the US can find that somewhere, should'nt be too hard.

All we have to do is claim that a particle accelerator is required to defeat terrorists and Cern will be looking pretty tiny by comparison.

[iChef]

I wonder if they are going to have a yard sale after they shut this thing down, I bet you could use the parts to built a sweet rail gun. Or just set it up in the yard and aim the beam at that damn dog next door that barks all night.

[StNowhere]

I wonder if they are going to have a yard sale after they shut this thing down, I bet you could use the parts to built a sweet rail gun. Or just set it up in the yard and aim the beam at that damn dog next door that barks all night.

"All right, guys, I don't care if you sell the CW generator for 20 bucks and a blowjob, MY RUSH MIX TAPE IS NOT FOR SALE!"

[Radical_Initiator]

And there it goes ...

I think this means the terrorists won.

[Wodashin]

What? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

This... This is sad news. My physics teacher is going to be so sad. He loves Fermilab. I can't believe how the sciences are hardly a priority for our government, while complete idiocy is.

[Vaniver]

Is it just PR to get more funding by appealing to nationalism?

I expect so.

[Radical_Initiator]

Quite probably an appeal to nationalism. And Fermilab isn't necessarily over because the Tevatron is gone. But I can't help but feel a little sense of loss; I grew up not too far from the lab; our schools took field trips once, I believe, and ever since I knew what a Tevatron was, I wanted to work on it. But in college, even several years ago, it became clear that this type of research wasn't being funded much anymore - not like "don't expect a salary" unfunded, but like "don't expect an experiment to exist" unfunded. The former, well, there are ways to deal with that. The latter is much trickier. People, in my own limited experience, were actively being discouraged from going into high-energy physics, unless they literally couldn't think of doing anything else. And Geneva is a long ways away.

For projects this big, it probably doesn't make sense to have more than one accelerator of this magnitude operating at any given time. But the loss of funding seems indicative of changing attitudes in the US toward science funding. At least, that's the way it seems to me.

[Garm]

I heard an interview with one of the Tevatron scientists. He said they were getting a proposal together to build a new collider that wouldn't be as high energy as LHC but would instead focus on doing many many collisions at one time to have a better chance of seeing exotic behavior.

[Pez Dispens3r]

What? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

This... This is sad news. My physics teacher is going to be so sad. He loves Fermilab. I can't believe how the sciences are hardly a priority for our government, while complete idiocy is.

???

I know false dichotomies are in fashion, but Jesus.

[Diadem]

Ever since WWII there has been a major brain-drain from Europe to the USA. European education has always been good, but many of our brightest students ans scientists moved accross the pond. In recent times this trend seems to have stopped, and perhaps even reversed. Not a bad thing for Europe.

It says something about the climate in the USA though. And this news fits that narrative.

[Dark567]

We're still continuing the brain drain of Asia to the US though. Some of it might just be competition for positions.

[SlyReaper]

I reckon they took one look at CERN's faster than light neutrinos, and thought "shit, there's no way we can compete with that, we're done here".