IRL racial stereotypes in fantasy setting?

[broken_escalator]

I'm not a writer so I can't give super cool ideas towards what would have made the Taurens less stereotypical. That's something a writer does. More importantly, that's something a good writer does. Sure, you can base the Taurens on native americans, but just implanting the culture directly isn't the same. Which again, has been discussed earlier with references to yojimbo and how that was "ripped off" or "based on".

[Oregonaut]

Much.

Ok. Going back to my history teacher here, "We lost, they wrote the history."

This was me learning about my own history. The one where the Irish were sub-human here in the states. Seriously, we were worse than the Mexicans. Where my grandfather's best options were join the military, and hope that your commander wasn't a Brit, or work in the corn fields and hope you earn enough to survive.

The same teacher taught me about how Oregon doesn't matter. At all. You move south, and it's all about Cali. You move east, and Idaho wishes we'd stop exporting our damn drugs. Washingtonians struggle to be more "hipster" than we are. They also sell us their god awful NFL/MLB teams, and tell us that we MUST care about them.

Non-whites don't hold all the cards on societies ills.

[broken_escalator]

I'm still unsure if goblins are stereotypes of Jewish people, or corrupt corporations. They both seem to make sense to me, but the jewish one is newer so I'm less sure I suppose. I guess it could be both to an extent.

Thoughts?

[Jessica]

Well, there are lots of ways to make it better. Probably the best thing would be to first remove the stereotypical items and then go from there. You can also try and think about how they got to be where they are.

So, we have cow people right? Ok. First thing I think of is, why are cow people using leather? I know it's important and there are non-cow leathers in the world, but it just seems strange. It could be a point of contention for the people - if they were descended from cows, they may be very particular about their leather not coming from Ungulates.

They live in grasslands and plains. Houses made of grass and straw seem to be more likely to come about then ones of leather and wood. They probably shouldn't be using much wood at all, as it seems scarce, but maybe it isn't. Try and make notable things with what they might have around. Stone markers instead of wooden pole, perhaps.

Then there's the images. Maybe more images that look like the rock elemental that exist, and they can see?

I guess what I'm saying is, that there are lots of ways to make a nomadic culture that isn't just a copy of the bad "indian" stereotype. We have lots of nomadic cultures in the world that aren't native americans.

[Oregonaut]

See, now that makes some sense. I'd argue against the leather though, as all leather is simply skin from something lower than you on the food chain. As long as they aren't skinning and wearing their Greatmothers, I don't know that they'd deny the usefulness of using the entire creature. Avoiding waste would be in tune with their not pissing off the resident spirits.

[Jessica]

Yeah, the leather thing just bugs me because we use predominantly cow leather.

Also, I would expect more horn iconography. More things made out of horn, because it would be pretty plentiful.

[_Axle_]

Quick post here ...
The leather most likely isn't other leather from cows/taurens. Kodo are the major roaming herd in the plains that the Tauren's call home. I see no reason why the Tauren wouldn't use them for a source of food and shelter.

Grass/Earth homes would be bad nomadic homes. They would be a pain to disassemble and most likely not being able to be moved at all. Being on the plains without 'taming' it requires movement with the herd. Also, Grass/Earth homes have been used by Native Americans as well, so that sort of doesn't help the situation on the perspective of "Taurens are a lazy writer's Native Americans"

[Belial]

Also, Grass/Earth homes have been used by Native Americans as well, so that sort of doesn't help the situation on the perspective of "Taurens are a lazy writer's Native Americans"

"Used by Native Americans" != "Associated broadly with the native american stereotype"

[Jessica]

Grass/Earth homes would be bad nomadic homes. They would be a pain to disassemble and most likely not being able to be moved at all. Being on the plains without 'taming' it requires movement with the herd. Also, Grass/Earth homes have been used by Native Americans as well, so that sort of doesn't help the situation on the perspective of "Taurens are a lazy writer's Native Americans"

Well, the point is to move away from the stereotypical image, not necessarily away from actual cultures. Since when we think of "the american indian" we think of teepees not actual grass huts or longhouses, it's not as much of a problem if we use them. Same with the totems - as long as they aren't the really tall totems of wood (which exist because of giant redwoods) then it'll be better.

Also, kodo leather probably looks different.

[Belial]

Yeah, I have a hard time believing the skin of the kodo would make clothes that look anything like stereotypical native garb.

[The Great Hippo]

It could have been interesting to base the Tauren on an actual Native American tribe (Aztecs could have been hella awesome for instance), and to do the research--but that could create a burden on the writers. A lot of WoW's decisions seem to be based on maximizing profit and tasking writers with coming up with a semi-convincing explanation later (again, I don't begrudge them this, but it's important to keep in mind); if you're using an actual people as your basis, that puts you under certain obligations that might interfere with your profit margins. Example: "Hey writers, marketing research indicates that we should have all the Tauren killed. Whip up some sort of in-game explanation for them all dying off." -- "Uh..."¹

So, to me, the simplest move would be to just remove some of the iconography. I realize there's a bit of wiggle room there; at what point are you buying into the false narrative and at what point are you just creating your own narrative? But when you have so many pieces of iconography present (tee-pees, feathers, beads, totem poles, tribal structure, deed-based names), it's a pretty clear case; if you just lopped off the biggest offenders (totem poles, tee-pees, and deed-based names) I think you'd be left with a race that could feasibly represent any primitive culture. And then you could start to build your own.

Something I should add--I'm not sure I parse the Tauren as a 'bad' thing. I describe the moral net gain as negative, but I perceive it as a very, very small negative; it strikes me as disrespectful, but little else. The reason I was arguing in this thread was because it felt like some people weren't convinced that the Tauren are just an importation of the stereotype. The negative aspects come from the reinforcement of narratives I perceive as bad, but it's hard to tell how much you're reinforcing something when you're twice removed from it (i.e., we're talking about fictitious fantasy races as stand-ins for stereotypes of real races).


¹ Also, in retrospect, they already have this problem thanks to the Native American parallel; if the notion of removing the Tauren as a race ever came up, you can bet your britches that they'd have to be careful about the way they went about it.

[bigglesworth]

First thing I think of is, why are cow people using leather? I know it's important and there are non-cow leathers in the world, but it just seems strange. It could be a point of contention for the people - if they were descended from cows, they may be very particular about their leather not coming from Ungulates.

People eat Monkey quite frequently.

And it seems to me that it would be strange for the Tauren to be based on a specific NA tribe, considering that the other races were based on conglomerations of other geographic areas' tribes.

[The Great Hippo]

And it seems to me that it would be strange for the Tauren to be based on a specific NA tribe, considering that the other races were based on conglomerations of other geographic areas' tribes.

Well, yeah; I hadn't considered that too--the logical question that stems from doing research for one group is "why aren't you doing research for all the groups?". But also, I think I'd feel like this was a little less of a moral net loss if the iconography was taken from a single tribe (and remained accurate to that tribe) rather than the general monolithic 'false' iconography we culturally assign to Native American tribes.

[_Axle_]

My problem with this whole argument is that it went far enough to see similar characteristics, but didn't go far enough to analyze why they have it. It went to look at Race A in a fantasy world, which has some similar things as Culture B in the real world. Then it stopped there, and names were called and back and forth talking with very little listening has happened.


When a race has tribal characteristics as Native Americans, it doesn't automatically mean that they are being a stereotype. There were and still are many tribal cultures worldwide, with very little contact if any with each other, yet they all developed on similar paths. Many were shamanistic, believed in animal spirits and/or gods. They used minimalistic houses, clothes/dress and used what was around them. The list goes on of what is similar among tribal communities world wide.

Describe to me how you would develop a culture of Bipedal cows who believe and worship spirits of the land, who live in a great plains like environment.

Also, how many characteristics need to match up to make something a stereotype, is there a number or a percentage? If this is not well defined, then an argument about almost anything is a stereotype of something else.

[Belial]

So the iconography, beads, feathers, styles (not composition) of clothing and so on are all inevitable outgrowths of their environment and society-type how exactly?

I figured it was pretty blatantly obvious that the resemblance wasn't accidental.

[The Great Hippo]

When a race has tribal characteristics as Native Americans, it doesn't automatically mean that they are being a stereotype.

Again, again, and again: The claim isn't that Tauren are a stereotype of Native Americans. The claim is that Tauren are an importation of stereotypes about Native American culture.

[Vaniver]

Mortality rates of children from 1894 to 1908 were between 30% and 60%. As in in 5 years of school, between 30% and 60% of the students had died.

That's... way worse than the numbers I'm getting for American schools. That's pretty horrifying.

Where are the angsty, young taurens that dye their fur black and get tons of piercings because you just don't understand mom and dad.

[KnightExemplar]

When a race has tribal characteristics as Native Americans, it doesn't automatically mean that they are being a stereotype.

Again, again, and again: The claim isn't that Tauren are a stereotype of Native Americans. The claim is that Tauren are an importation of stereotypes about Native American culture.

Hmm, if thats the argument, then I'm in agreement.

The correction of course is better education, but good luck with that >_<

[General_Norris]

The claim isn't that Tauren are a stereotype of Native Americans. The claim is that Tauren are an importation of stereotypes about Native American culture.

May I ask how do you know that they are "an importation of stereotypes" instead of an importation of history? Or is it simply impossible to base a fictional culture on Native Americans without it being a stereotype?

[bigglesworth]

No, no, if they had been based on either a specific NA tribe, or with a range of attributes chosen for a reason from NA tribes, it would be an importation of the historical culture. However, they imported the mish-mash of features from different NA tribes that makes up the stereotypical Native American tribe.

[KnightExemplar]

The claim isn't that Tauren are a stereotype of Native Americans. The claim is that Tauren are an importation of stereotypes about Native American culture.

May I ask how do you know that they are "an importation of stereotypes" instead of an importation of history? Or is it simply impossible to base a fictional culture on Native Americans without it being a stereotype?

Well, first of all, many of the Tauren Attributes are "Native Americna Myths". Ex: Tauren apparently use "every part of the animal they hunt in respect and utility." Common Myth about the buffalo hunts, as Lewis and Clark's expidition paints a far different reality. Teepees and Totem poles are another one (especially when used in conjunction). Most Native Americans actually settled down into some sort of house, only the nomatic tribes on the great plains used the Teepees. And only Native Americans close to the great Redwood trees in the West carved totem poles. (I posted this a few pages back, for those who feel like deja vu)

Historically speaking, each Native American tribe was as diverse as a different country. They had different culture, different language, different writing systems (if any writing system at all). The closest stereotype is the Asian stereotype. "Asians are good at math and play DDR" ignores say, the literacy rate and debilitating poverty of the Phillipenes. Or the buck-teeth (seriously, buck teeth and yellow skin? Where the hell did they come from?). There is no "Asian" despite what modern culture wants us to believe. Each Asian Country (China, Japan, Korea, Phillipenes) are all very different with different cultures, yet we stereotype "The Asian" into this single entity. (I can only say this, because modern culture has finally started differentiating between the various Asian countries. Yet, as this thread / argument has shown, people here still see "Native Americans" as a single entity)

At the end of the day, its just a story about how widespread cultural ignorance is. The correct solution to ignorance is better education.

[Zamfir]

There's the "Native American Myth" and many stories are based on it. But as stated before, the solution to this is to tackle the myth directly: educating our youth on how the Native Americans actually functioned. While WoW Tauren can be used as evidence that the myth still exists... its not quite a wrong IMO.

I sort of agree with you here, but it also point to a problem: things like WoW or Avatar are huge. They attarct a large audience and get their full attention, and they have budgets of hundred of millions to achieve those things. You can't just abstractly expect 'education' to counteract the images produced by mass media, unless we are talking about similar huge edcation efforts.

On the other hand, people at Blizzard or in Holywood are not intentionally trying to reinforce those images, and they are not particularly dependent on these stereotypes. For them, it's just a side effect of not thinking enough about the potential downsides fo using particular imaging.

So the choice is between trying to make people at mass media more aware of the stereotypes they reinforce, or massive education campaigns to counteract them. Relying mostly on the second will be a losing business on anything beyond perhaps a few selected issues. Media can create stereotypes faster than education can dispel them.

[KnightExemplar]

There's the "Native American Myth" and many stories are based on it. But as stated before, the solution to this is to tackle the myth directly: educating our youth on how the Native Americans actually functioned. While WoW Tauren can be used as evidence that the myth still exists... its not quite a wrong IMO.

I sort of agree with you here, but it also point to a problem: things like WoW or Avatar are huge. They attarct a large audience and get their full attention, and they have budgets of hundred of millions to achieve those things. You can't just abstractly expect 'education' to counteract the images produced by mass media, unless we are talking about similar huge edcation efforts.

On the other hand, people at Blizzard or in Holywood are not intentionally trying to reinforce those images, and they are not particularly dependent on these stereotypes. For them, it's just a side effect of not thinking enough about the potential downsides fo using particular imaging.

So the choice is between trying to make people at mass media more aware of the stereotypes they reinforce, or massive education campaigns to counteract them. Relying mostly on the second will be a losing business on anything beyond perhaps a few selected issues. Media can create stereotypes faster than education can dispel them.

Just as an FYI, sorry for editing that sentence before you responded. Somehow that sentence disappeared during my edits. I still agree with what I said, but I guess I deleted part of it to make the paragraph flow better...

Maybe its the conservative in me, but forcing private companies (especially the media) to change their underlying message makes me completely sick to my stomach. If there is one thing the government shouldn't regulate heavily... its the media. You know, Media plays the role of the 4th branch of government: the Watchdog. Its the check-and-balance to the whole democracy. Yes yes yes, I know the government prevents us from saying cuss words on the air, and prevents Porn from being shown on children's channels... but regulating game environments because of the subconcious messages that they may or may not portray? That scares me quite a bit.

This perhaps goes back to my previous argument: I don't see any long term harm in letting this ignorance stay as it is. It would be nice if we were all better educated on each other's culture... but practically speaking, we should be just educated enough so that we see each other as humans. Too many cultures, too little time. Anything more than that would be a waste unless you specifically interact with that culture some time in your life.

[Zamfir]

Maybe its the conservative in me, but forcing private companies (especially the media) to change their underlying message makes me completely sick to my stomach. If there is one thing the government shouldn't regulate heavily... its the media.

Where is the government suddenly coming from? We are not the government, and we are individually not particularly more likely to influence government decisions than we are to influence Blizzard directly. So why drag the government into it?

As individuals, the best we can do is decide for ourselves what we would like to have happened, and discuss among each other to find some common agreement on the question "Should Blizzard ideally have approached this in a different way?". If there is some agreement there, and if enough people elsewhere come to similar conclusions, there are many channels how that agreement can affect future writing decisions.

Some of the people agreeing might directly work at companies making such writing decisions, or have other direct channels to influence writing decisions. Others might have higher-profile outlets to voice their opinion in a ways media companies hear. Avatar clearly got a lot of high-profile comment, and people in studios have heard that. And even lower-profile chattering, like this, will leak through to people who influence writing if the volume of the chatter is big enough.

We're not fighting writers or studios. We're hoping they would agree with us, if they gave the issue some more thought. We don't want Holywood studios to think "Hmm, I really want to put this stereoytype in my movie, but the law forbids it." We want them to think "Hmm, a lazy stereotype. That's ugly, and we know the public grumbles about them."

[Jessica]

Agreed with what Zamfir said - Changing the entertainment industry doesn't require or demand government intervention. Social activism can and has made changes, and has. Social awareness can also help. It's less getting the government to do something and getting us to talk about it, talk to friends and become aware of issues.

Personally, I do think that continuing the native american myth/caricature as it stands is a problem. If all people have to go on to relate to a group of people is this myth and the current stereotypes of natives, it makes it harder for people to empathize. What I mean is, if you think about natives, if all you can think of is "primitive hunter gatherers" or "drunk casino owners", that's not a good start to understand what any individual person is coming from. Especially when both of those stereotypes wash over the actual problems that native Americans (or first nations in Canada) actual face, and have faced in the past.

Really, there needs to be more education about the first peoples of America, so people can learn more about what happened to them, and what is happening now. But, there also needs to be awareness in media, because fighting stereotypes is difficult for public education to do alone.

[Belial]

Yeah, Knight, I'm not sure how you jumped from "this is bad writing and also a serious dick move" to "legal restrictions" or "force", I don't think anyone was advocating that.

And I agree with Jessica, if the stereotypes are harmful, then something like the Tauren can't just be a symptom. It's also an uncritical repetition, and therefore a reinforcement.

[The Mighty Thesaurus]

The fourth branch of government? Can I get Americentrism for 200?

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

I did not wish to imply a dichotomy. But for clarification of my argument... anything more than say, an email of disgust is too much action for me.

Then, as podbaydoor says, you're perfectly welcome to move on and let the people who want to take action handle that part.

I'm not sure if you are reading my posts. My argument is stronger than just personal inaction: its against virtually any hypothetical action. I do not feel that these "stereotypes" are a wrong. Heck, I'm still not convinced that they are even stereotypes at all.

Of course I am reading your posts. It is precisely because of this that I am so confused when you say that an email of disgust is OK, but then argue against "virtually any hypothetical action" on the basis that the Tauren are not stereotypes. If the Tauren aren't built on stereotypes, and this means that other action is unjustified, then why would an email of disgust be OK?

[Felstaff]

Social activism can has made changes

Spoiler:

Edited to add srs bsnss, as this is the correct forum:

Or is it simply impossible to base a fictional culture on Native Americans without it being a stereotype?

Yes. Yes it is. See, "Native Americans" refers an entire people. It's like saying I wish to base a fictional culture on Europeans without it being a stereotype. How could I possibly do that, without making a hideous amalgamation of a snooty, clog-wearing, yodelling, rude, lederhosen-sporting, blond-haired, beret-waving, onion-munching strangely-accented clockmaker with bad teeth and a Mario moustache? This is why, as a writer, you have to work harder at the 'fiction' part, than the 'what can we base it on which people will instantaneously recognise?' part. It's not just the Tauren, or Blizzard, but all sorts of entertainment media. Hell, I grew up believing that all 'Red Injuns' were tomahawk-wielding scalp-merchants with feathers in their hair and names like Running Bear and Sitting Down who greet people with a raised palm and a 'how' sign and often, if not constantly, ran around making ululations with their hand patting their mouths. Where did I learn these traits? Comic books, TV, cowboys 'n' injuns fillums... all sorts of media. I know now how damaging that perpetuation of these stereotypes are, and Blizzard continue to, as Belial mentioned, reinforce this notion with the tee-pees and the wigwams and the totem poles and the heyheyhey and the like. Growing up, my perception of Native American life and culture was completely wrong, and the weapons used to shape this perception were old TV shows and lazy kids' comics. The imagery used to cause this imprint on my impressionable child mind was set until I actually decided to learn about it (after reading One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest), which I understand not everybody in the world would choose to do. The cycle of stereotype perpetuation is continued, not with low-budget TV imports, but with multi-multi-bulti-million-selling games like Warcraft, which takes the lazy stereotype and slathers it onto bipedal cows.

Apologies if this comes across as too 'think of the children!' but really I just wanted to post the kitten thinks about nothin' but murder pic.

[Oregonaut]

The way I'm thinking about it, after some fun times long thought, is it is close to if someone said that Americans are all fat and lazy, and depcited Americans as nothing but fat and lazy. Saying that Oregonians are just like Texans, or that Oregonians are all the same type of people. Or that all Republicans are staid, hyper-religious, nutjobs. It begins to make sense why it would be odd to create a monolithic culture, without distinctions being shown. However, in WoW's case, there are some distinctions there if you read the LoLore.

[HungryHobo]

One thing to keep in mind though, in the case of games which let you be the characters in question it can be more about wish fulfilment than facts.
I used to play a game where I had a character who was essentially a sterotype of a medieval blacksmith.

Do I care that a real medieval blacksmith actually wouldn't have lived in a house like the character? no.
Do I care that the streets of a real medieval town would have had a lot more horse crap? no.
Do I care that a real medieval blacksmith would have had to pay taxes to the king, might have caught smallpox and in short would have been utterly different from the character?no.
Do I care he likely would have starved during his childhood at some point and/or ended up stunted or crippled from polio? no. I want to swing hammers at feudal knights .

I liked the image.
I don't want the reality.
It's a game.
A fantasy.
If I wanted gritty reality in a game I'd play the missery simulator. (AKA, real lives:http://www.educationalsimulations.com/)

Some people want to play the role of a native american style character.
They don't want or need a history class in the exact rituals of any particular group.
They want to put themselves into a world/culture which never actually existed outside their imagination.
totem poles and leather tepees weren't both in use in any one tribe? tough luck, the player wants to be a character who sleeps in a tepee and carves totems.

If one game company listens to you and starts caring more about historical accuracy than what wishes/fantasies the customers want to live out then they'll be pushed out of the market by a developer who gives the customer what they want.

in games any image of a lifestyle or culture which people like or want to put themselves into will eventually get implemented.

[broken_escalator]

Medievel blacksmith is not the same as an entire people. How do you compare the vast differences of all the Native American tribes and confuse them with a profession during a time period? No one is upset that the tents aren't built to standard 352 of teepee code, or that they don't ritualistically fulfill the codes of their paganistic charter.

They want to put themselves into a world/culture which never actually existed outside their imagination.

Except they took all these cultures, blended them on high for 5 minutes and then stuck them straight into their game. Oh ho ho, how cleverly creative, its not a culture that existed because we blended them. That totally isn't propagating a stereotype. Y'know, because we blended them.

Some people want to play the role of a native american style character.

I don't think you even know what this means. Is native american style the style where you mishmash all the different cultures together? Or is it the style where you actually look at the culture and realize they're not all the same.

Honestly did you even read this thread? I know its 5 pages, but this part feels like deja vu.

Be careful.

- Az

[Belial]

I used to play a game where I had a character who was essentially a sterotype of a medieval blacksmith.

Which would be a great analogy if we'd spent the last 400 years or so slaughtering, concentrating, and then minimizing, appropriating, and caricaturizing medieval blacksmiths. But let's widen this so it makes sense, and say we're talking about medieval europeans as a whole.

See, when you have a historical pattern of, to put it lightly, disrespecting a certain culture, then any future actions will be seen in that light. And so, what is a whimsical stylized riff when done to one culture is just...more of the same old disrespect when done to another. It's kindof like the way that I can make your-mom jokes at my friends and it's fine, but if I do it to the guy at work that I'm always fighting with, there will be significantly fewer giggles and significantly more HR complaints.

If being able to make the your-mom jokes at that guy is super important to me, I need to work on becoming better friends with that guy first. Step one will be "not being such a prick to him all the time" followed by "not constantly whining that I can't insult him jokingly yet".

[HungryHobo]

Medievel blacksmith is not the same as an entire people. How do you compare the vast differences of all the Native American tribes and confuse them with a profession during a time period?

or that they don't ritualistically fulfill the codes of their paganistic charter.

Now you're intentionally trying the miss the point.

It's just a subset of european peasents or serfs.

the failure to ritualistically fulfill the codes of their paganistic charter seems to be one of the general complaints above.
Wrong totems, wrong type of buildings, wrong rituals etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

If I'd said "native american hunter/warrior" it would have been naming a profession rather than a group but it's still a subset of that group.

Except they took all these cultures, blended them on high for 5 minutes and then stuck them straight into their game. Oh ho ho, how cleverly creative, its not a culture that existed because we blended them. That totally isn't propagating a stereotype. Y'know, because we blended them.

Do you have a point other than being snarky?

Is native american style the style where you mishmash all the different cultures together?

yes. like every other (insert real life culture)"ish" group in most stories.

See, when you have a historical pattern of, to put it lightly, disrespecting a certain culture, then any future actions will be seen in that light. And so, what is a whimsical stylized riff when done to one culture is just...more of the same old disrespect when done to another. It's kindof like the way that I can make your-mom jokes at my friends and it's fine, but if I do it to the guy at work that I'm always fighting with, there will be significantly fewer giggles and significantly more HR complaints.

ie: it's ok for you to caricature my culture no matter if my own ancestors were serfs(read slaves) regularly abused and slaughtered by a nobility who's decendents are still a hefty power block in modern culture but that other culture is sacrosanct and nobody should talk about it or refer to it with anything other than exacting accuracy.

You're walking a fine line here.

- Az

[broken_escalator]

The wrong totems and buildings is pointing out that they are just a general mishmash of native american cultures. The same, tired stereotype we've been reusing to death. Yes, serfs were oppressed. But is it fair to try to compare the levels of oppression then with the genocide of native Americans?

I think your privilege is getting in the way of understanding Belial's post.

[HungryHobo]

The wrong totems and buildings is pointing out that they are just a general mishmash of native american cultures. The same, tired stereotype we've been reusing to death. Yes, serfs were oppressed. But is it fair to try to compare the levels of oppression then with the genocide of native Americans?

I think your privilege is getting in the way of understanding Belial's post.

Spoiler:

Educate yourself about european history.

Famines every couple of decades(with the occasional massive one killing millions) often due to greed and mismanagement of the nobility , entire peoples systematically wiped out or subsumed into others, rebellions would be delt with by armies wading in and slaughtering vast numbers of people to make an example, religions cultures and peoples systematically oppressed, subjugated or erased over the course of centuries etc etc .

But sure. everything you say is automatically right and everyone else is automatically wrong because the only way anyone could disagree with you is because they're sooooo very privaliged.

the arrogance is wafting off you in a cloud.

Irrelevance followed by being antagonistic. Not a good start.

- Az

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

Answer honestly: do you identify with the blacksmiths of the past who may have been your ancestors? Does anyone else look at you and say "Ah, a blacksmith"?

[HungryHobo]

Answer honestly: do you identify with the blacksmiths of the past who may have been your ancestors? Does anyone else look at you and say "Ah, a blacksmith"?

god no.
I like the fantasy version but I know damn well the reality would have been pretty terrible given that life would have been hard, dirty and most likely short.

There's a reason the games rarely include the hours of chewing the animal hides for making leather or occassionally catching the plague.
reality is nasty.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

And that's why Native American stereotypes are problematic, while nobody gives a shit if we misrepresent blacksmiths.

[HungryHobo]

And that's why Native American stereotypes are problematic, while nobody gives a shit if we misrepresent blacksmiths.

but of course only for cultures which you've decided have to get the kid gloves.

you don't care if someone misrepresent the life of a medieval peasent.
you are not everyone.


the people who want to play as such characters generally like the culture in question or at least their image of it.