Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

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Re: Mafia - Twins - Day 5, The final nail

Postby BigNose » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:52 pm UTC

As it happened:

Players:
Spoiler:
Dr Ug - Sane Cop
existential_elevator - Insane Cop

iroZn - Selfish Doctor
ThinkSweet - Selfless Doctor

negativeone - Scum #1 RB
mcmesher - Scum #1 NK

Lataro - Scum #2 GF
Zid - Scum #2 NK

roband - Twin with Zid, Scum supporter
Boreeas - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter
Chandani - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter
Misnomer - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter

tastelikecoke - Runt
No player knew their exact ability until they tested it.

The game hung on who the Twins chose, as the each received the following:
Spoiler:
Twin:
You are a Twin.
You may select any other player as your Twin (N0)
You will know their alignment (Town, Scum or Runt)
You start as Town alignment
You may claim who your Twin is, but not their alignment, or your win condition
If your Twin is Town, you win with Town
If your Twin is Scum, you win with Scum
If your Twin is Runt, you win with Runt
Notice the removed line as the Twins selected their 'mate' during N0
I originally included it pre-game, but took it out when the game started.
I wonder what the Twins would have made of that, if they had known?
Roband selected Zid and become Scum supporter
The others selected Roband (time-wise later) and became Town supporters (Roband's initial state)
By treating each pairing request simultaneously, it helped balance the game and throw a spanner in.

Comedy of errors:
Spoiler:
Dr Ug Sane copped Lataro (GF) N1 and came back as Town.
Roband outed Zid as Town and the other Twins (foolishly) backed Roband as Town
Both Scum teams selected Misnomer as the N1 kill
Both Scum teams selected Town in Night 2, which is why LYLO on D3
ThinkSweet shouted out the Selfish Doctor role, inadvertantly giving IroZn a "LYNCH ME" sign-board to wear at end-game.
With the Scum Lynch in D3 and the dual Scum NK N3, handed back the reins to Town - Non-Lylo now
Damn, Scummy McLataro changed Zid's mind and they kill Chandani.
Day 4 and Lataro attempts the 'I know what's happening' and gets Roband (Scum Supporter) and NegativeOne (other Scum Team) to lynch a Townie (IroZn).
He thinks that Roband (Scum Supporter)+Lataro(ScumTeam#1 GF&NK) on NegativeOne(ScumTeam#2, RB & NK) on Dr Ug(Town Sane Cop) and he/they win.
Unfortunately, while his team had a GF, the other team had a RB.
Lataro decides to target NegativeOne with his NK, but NegativeOne RB's Lataro, NKs Roband and it's 1 on 1 on 1.
BACK-STABBING TIME - Round 2!!


Finally, the Votal requirements was to force Town to meet the requirement, or there was a No-Lynch.
This was also the reason why the requirement was dropped by 1 less than normal and for balancing purposes.
As it happened, the reduced Votal requirement was unnecessary.


Lataro wrote:This game had more twists and turns than a soap opera.
But did you enjoy it?
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby roband » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:11 pm UTC

I enjoyed this tremendously.

Scum supporter is a difficult role, but being able to let Zid know I was going to support basically anything he suggested made it a little easier.
The death of Lady Diana was also predicted by Moby Dick.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Lataro » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:24 pm UTC

Yeah, as I've said elsewhere, I spent a lot of time thinking how to get out of that pickle.

IroZn's counterclaim was undeniable. If I got lynched and came up godfather, Dr Ug would know he was sane, and we'd be sunk as Zid would fall, then Roband. I figured, you two, as long as I wasn't dead yet, were confirmed town enough that this might just float a single vote where we needed it.

After that lynch and the game didn't know, I was pretty sure we had a second scum team, my mistake was assuming since the kill twins were the same, that me and my twin would be the same. Was he a one-shot unkillable or roleblocker or what?

I had considered killing negitiveone after that lynch since it seemed likely, however, I wanted to knock town down a peg so we didn't make a town win possible. Unlike the selfish other scum team, I thought we'd use the kill the ensure a town loss.

After that, I made a mistake in revealing that I thought he was a GF like me, when he was really something different. I pry shouldn't of said that since it gave him more info than he really needed to know, and I was kicking myself expecting to get RB'ed that night.

This game went from sure victory, to sure defeat, to sure victory, to possible victory, to kinda victory.

Very awesome game BN, it kept me on my toes the whole time. What powers did the runt have BTW?
DS9, after being told the story and moral of the boy who cried wolf by Julian.

Garak: "Are you sure that's the moral?"
Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Zid » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:25 pm UTC

"Damn, Scummy McLataro changed Zid's mind and they kill Chandani."

I reflected upon this decision in death and decided that it would have been mighty difficult to actually win had we not removed an extra town from the list. What with Dr Ug having our number. It's also why I asked you how many to hammer pre-death.

I laughed at all the tie opportunities where the outcome was basically: TLC lost.

That was very unfortunate for the NK TLC. My question still stands btw, mcmesher and negativeone: How come you offed TLC?

Excellent game, by the way. Although I wish you'd have told us that the win condition was an outright lie! LIES!
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Lataro » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:42 pm UTC

Just read spoilers

Paraphrase of BN wrote:Only one scum team can win


to that I say...

Mwahahahahaha!
DS9, after being told the story and moral of the boy who cried wolf by Julian.

Garak: "Are you sure that's the moral?"
Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby BigNose » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:16 pm UTC

The Runt's only power was that he knew who the pairs were, as identified in the flavour when he died.
Obviously, that became nul and void when Roband backed up Zid.

What the Runt also had was a different win condition, they won if they were alive when any side won, ie survival.
Thus they had the knowledge, but outing it would have identified them as Runt, which everyone wanted dead.
Hence, they couldn't use the info openly without repercussions.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Boreeas » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

Now that the game ended, let me explain what I did:
Basically, my big worry was that twinning someone doesn't necessarily mean inheriting their alignment - I think that has never been stated in the mod texts, so I was suspicious.
Since I am more or less inexperienced in playing mafai, I didn't express my opinion clear enough and appeared scummy.
Whatever, more things to learn.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Zid » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:00 pm UTC

BigNose did you think town could ever win (in the setup, rather than this particular game I mean)? I guess the scum teams would have had to encounter each other sooner. The simultaneous target on N1 probably helped there.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby BigNose » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:08 pm UTC

Zid wrote:BigNose did you think town could ever win (in the setup, rather than this particular game I mean)? I guess the scum teams would have had to encounter each other sooner. The simultaneous target on N1 probably helped there.

It did somewhat depend on the Twins and who they paired with.
When it came out as-is, I knew it would be difficult, but Town did have 4 power roles against 2 Scum teams, neither of which knew about the other.
If a Scum Team NK'd the other at any point before, it could have been an easy Town win.
If Lataro hadn't changed his mind N3, then Town were in perfect position to win.

I think I got the balance right.
Whenever I get an idea, I keep tinkering with it to ensure balance.
Example, the Runt could win with either Town or Scum, whereas Town and Scum could only win with the Runt dead.
Thus, the Runt had knowledge and an easier win condition, but he was playing solo.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby iroZn » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:32 pm UTC

Yeah unfortunately we just took to mean that because everyone twinned with roband was town that meant roband and zid were town. Big error. Ah well it was played really well by Lataro so kudos.

I think I've learnt not to be so hasty with voting haha
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Zid » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

iroZn wrote:Yeah unfortunately we just took to mean that because everyone twinned with roband was town that meant roband and zid were town. Big error. Ah well it was played really well by Lataro so kudos.

I think I've learnt not to be so hasty with voting haha


Nooo! fast mafia is good mafia :x

@BigNose, I agree that there was balance. Would you have allowed for two massive scum teams had the pickers all gotten lucky?
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Dr Ug » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:34 pm UTC

I think a lot of this game came down to interpretations of the twinning mechanic. The interpretation of a twin chain (ie what happened to those who twinned roband) gave scum their half win).

I think the game was thoroughly enjoyable, and as it happened probably sort of balanced (probably a bit in favour of scum, with the possibility of it being either slightly pro-town or heavily pro-scum depending on how people chose twins).

Also, having a large proportion of the players knowing how the twinning mechanism worked, except for the power roles should have made it very easy for the scum to identify those roles.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby BigNose » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:18 am UTC

Zid wrote:
iroZn wrote:Yeah unfortunately we just took to mean that because everyone twinned with roband was town that meant roband and zid were town. Big error. Ah well it was played really well by Lataro so kudos.

I think I've learnt not to be so hasty with voting haha


Nooo! fast mafia is good mafia :x

@BigNose, I agree that there was balance. Would you have allowed for two massive scum teams had the pickers all gotten lucky?

I think if that had occurred, I would have included a 'You cannot state who your Twin is' which I originally included, then removed it while tinkering.

Dr Ug wrote:I think a lot of this game came down to interpretations of the twinning mechanic. The interpretation of a twin chain (ie what happened to those who twinned roband) gave scum their half win).

I think the game was thoroughly enjoyable, and as it happened probably sort of balanced (probably a bit in favour of scum, with the possibility of it being either slightly pro-town or heavily pro-scum depending on how people chose twins).

Also, having a large proportion of the players knowing how the twinning mechanism worked, except for the power roles should have made it very easy for the scum to identify those roles.
Part of this game was understanding the Twin aspect, as everyone had some knowledge of a Twin, although not necessarily who they were. So, each Doctor was told 'you are a Selfish or Selfless Doctor' and the Cops were told 'You are either a Sane or Insane Cop'. The hint was there.
Your right, I also though the game was slightly balanced in favour of Scum, especially when Roband picked Zid and made even worse by the other Twins picking Roband, hence the reduced voting totals required each day to lynch. The Power Roles only really came out because the Twins outed themselves, thus leaving the other Scum Team members and non-Twinners as potential Power Town.

Note: If you have an ability, it might not be a good idea to shout it out ASAP and be wary of any that do. I think 1 of the Twins held back their twinning with Roband, also E_E shouting about the Selfish/Selfless Doctor didnt help. Notice that upon death, I only revealed Cop or Doctor, not which type.

Town came so close to winning at 1 stage, as during N3, Lataro and Zid were targetting NegativeOne (Scum) and NegativeOne was targetting Zid (Scum). This would have left 3 Town and Lataro and Roband outed as Scum.
It is only because Lataro changed his mind, by sending a second PM NK, that the game changed (again).
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby BigNose » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:30 am UTC

Full backgound info FYI
Spoiler:
MAFIA - TWINS
===========

All Roles are defined.
1 x Cop - Sane
1 x Cop - Insane
1 x Doctor - Standard Doctoring (non-self)
1 x Doctor - Self Doctoring (self only, 2 x per game)
Scum Twins Alpha
Scum #1 - Has a NK
Scum #2 - Has a RoleBlock
Scum Twins Beta
Scum #1 - Has a NK
Scum #2 - GodFather
4 x Twins (Town)
1 x Runt (Indy)

Each Twin, can select anyone else in N0 to 'Twin' with.
They will then know if they are Town, Scum. No more than that.
They will then become supporters of their Twin.
Twins start out as Town, until they choose their soul-mate.
(The Twins were not informed of this)

Scum do not know (to start) which ability they have. They can PM each other at Night and both abilities apply.
If the player with the NK dies, then their Twin gains the NK ability. If the Scum without the NK dies, their ability is lost.
(As part of the tinkering, I thought that if the player with the NK dies, the NK ability died too)

The Runt knows who is Twinned with who, but not which one is the Twin and which is its selected 'pairing'.

Upon death:
Power Townie is identified simply as Cop or Doctor
Scum is simply identified as Scum
Twin will have their Twin identified by name only
Runt will have all Twins identified by name only

Town win on elimination of all Scum aligned and the Runt, else a half win.
Scum win on elimination of all Town aligned and the Runt, else a half win.
Runt wins on being alive at either half-win condition.


================================================================================================

Every one has a Twin, but Twins are never EXACTLY the same.
Some people find soul-mates and are effectively Twins in how they think and operate.
But there is always ONE who goes against the grain.
Nobody likes them or wants them.
The Runt of the litter.

But the Runt is not without influence.

This game consists of Cops and Doctors and Town and Scum and Godfathers and Role-blockers and Twins.
Oh, and a Runt!


================================================================================================

Cop:
You are a cop, but you don't know if you are Sane or Insane
You may cop anyone in the game each night.
The result of the cop will be Town, Scum or Runt.
PM me your target each night
Alignment: Town
Win condition: Get rid of Scum and the Runt

Doctor:
You are a Doctor, but you don't know if you are a selfless or selfish Doctor
If you are the selfish Doctor, you can only protect yourself twice per game
If you are the selfless Doctor, you may protect anyone else each Night.
PM me your target each night
I will inform you if you have selected an invalid target.
You cannot re-target that night.
Alignment: Town
Win condition: Get rid of Scum and the Runt

Scum #1:
You are Scum
You may chat at night only.
One of you has a NK, the other has a RB.
If the RB dies, so does the function.
If the NK dies, the RB gets both abilities.
PM me your target each night Win condition: Get rid of Town and the Runt

Scum #2:
You are Scum
You may chat at night only.
One of you has a NK, the other is a GF.
If the GF dies, so does the function.
If the NK dies, the GF gets both abilities.
PM me your target each night
Win condition: Get rid of Town and the Runt

Twin:
You are a Twin.
You may select any other player as your Twin (N0)
You will know their alignment (Town, Scum or Runt)
You may claim who your Twin is, but not their alignment, or your win condition
If your Twin is Town, you win with Town
If your Twin is Scum, you win with Scum
If your Twin is Runt, you win with Runt

Please reply ASAP with the name who you wish to Twin with?

Runt:
You are the Runt.
You are a Survivor
You will have a full list of the Twins
You win with Town or Scum

==========================================================
You are now a Scum supporter.
You will be copped as Scum.
You cannot chat with Scum.
You win with Zid.

You are now a Town Supporter
You will be copped as Town
You win with ??
==========================================================


Players:
======
Dr Ug - Sane Cop
existential_elevator - Insane Cop

iroZn - Selfish Doctor
ThinkSweet - Selfless Dcotor

negativeone - Scum #1 RB
mcmesher - Scum #1 NK

Lataro - Scum #2 GF
Zid - Scum #2 NK

roband - Twin with Zid, Scum supporter
Boreeas - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter
Chandani - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter
Misnomer - Twin with Roband, Town Supporter

tastelikecoke - Runt
Twins or soul-mates are:
Boreeas and Roband
Chandani and Roband
Misnomer and Roband
Zid and Roband
You may spill the beans or not.
Upon your death, the beans will be spilled.

=============================================

D1 Lynch
Boreeas

N1 Actions
Lataro (GF) target Dr Ug - GF has no action atm
IroZn (iDoc) targets Roband - Invalid Doctor target
NegativeOne (RB#1) targets IroZn - Irrelevant RB as he had an invalid target
Dr Ug (Cop) targets Lataro - Cops as Town
E_E (poC) targets Roband - Insane cop of Town
ThinkSweet (uDoc) targets ThinkSweet - Invalid Doctor target
McMesher (NK#1) targets Misnomer - NK on Misnomer Zid (NK#2) targets Misnomer - NK on Misnomer

Dead: Misnomer

=============================================

D2 Lynch
ThinkSweet

N2 Actions
NegativeOne (RB#1) targets E_E - Blocks
Lataro (GF) targets E_E - nothing
IroZn (iDoc) targets Self #1 - Safe
Dr Ug (Cop) targets Zid - Scum
E_E (poC) targets Lataro - Blocked - Dies
McMesher (NK#1) targets TLC - Dies Zid (NK#2) targets E_E - Kills

Dead: E_E, TLC

========================================================================

D3 Lynch
McMesher

N3 Actions
NegativeOne (NK & RB#1) targets NK at Zid & RB at Dr Ug - Zid dies
Lataro (GF) targets Chandani - Nothing
IroZn (iDoc) targets No-one
Dr Ug (Cop) targets No-one - Blocked
Zid (NK#2) targets Chandani - Twin dies

DEAD: Zid, Chandani

========================================================================

D4 Lynch
IroZn

N4 Actions
NegativeOne (NK & RB) targets NK on Roband, RB on Lataro
Lataro targets NegativeOne - irrelevant
Dr Ug target no-one irrelevant

Dead: Roband

========================================================================

D5 Lynch
Dr Ug

NegativeOne (Scum Team #1) and Lataro (Scum Team #2) call a truce

Scum draw, Town lose, Runt lose
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby tastelikecoke » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:54 am UTC

Zid wrote:"Damn, Scummy McLataro changed Zid's mind and they kill Chandani."

I reflected upon this decision in death and decided that it would have been mighty difficult to actually win had we not removed an extra town from the list. What with Dr Ug having our number. It's also why I asked you how many to hammer pre-death.

I laughed at all the tie opportunities where the outcome was basically: TLC lost.

That was very unfortunate for the NK TLC. My question still stands btw, mcmesher and negativeone: How come you offed TLC?

Excellent game, by the way. Although I wish you'd have told us that the win condition was an outright lie! LIES!

offed? what?
Anyway, I wish I had pushed through negativeone. He is the best scum choice for D1, but my emotional feelings swayed me to pushing TS. The runt is basically a survivor, So it'll be easier for me to act like I have a town win condition.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby Zid » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:09 pm UTC

offed as in killed. I wanted to know what made Scum team 2 decide to NK you.
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Re: Mafia - Twins - Scum draw, Town lose

Postby BigNose » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:28 pm UTC

Actually, I was quite surprised that both Cops didnt cop themselves 1st night as they would have instantly known which type they were.
I deliberately left that restriction out, to provide them that opportunity.
The Doctors found out which type they were by having their target rejected.
Adacore wrote:In all honesty, BigNose has been pinging me slightly with almost every post since the start of the game. But he always does - I was utterly convinced he was anti-town for most of Wizardry2 and he was the High Wizard. I just can't read him.
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