bloatyspizzahog wrote:Its not that silly of a debate. Its pretty much the core of the topic. If it means enough to them to openly speak out and put in the effort into making a verbal complaint then it should mean enough to them act on it by, in this situation, putting on a shirt. If it doesn't bother you enough to act on it then why even say anything at all? (this being something easily changed of course)
If I'm concerned about driving because of drunk drivers, I can stay off the roads. Oorrrrrr I can realize that's impractical, and support legislation against drunk driving. Or I can not do anything at all (maybe I don't like the specific legislation, or dislike other policies of the politicians who are supporting it) and just complain about it, so it registers as a social issue. The more people complain about something, the more it's in the public's mind, the more things change. Just as women who like being topless but don't like being stared at can put on a shirt or they can complain about it and hopefully change a culture that treats them as lewd.
You're "its cold in winter so move to Brazil" argument is a little of a stretch. We cant control the weather as much as we can control our clothes. Its more like its snowing outside so if you choose to stand in the cold then either don't complain or get your frozen ass inside. Don't just stand out there going "Oh man, this sucks. I want to stand in the snow and experience winter first hand but i don't want to be cold."
I'm not saying you can control the weather? You can control where you live (to an extent), just as you can control where you stand. However, your analogy fails because you haven't provided a reason for them to stand outside. Are they waiting for something? Women aren't going topless just because. Bras are annoying, sometimes it's hot, etc. They view wearing a top as inconvenient. So "putting on a shirt" is not a no-cost solution to their problem.
Wodashin wrote:Here, it's rarely warm enough to warrant nakedness. Last I checked, there is no law saying you must wear a bra. Arguing that, 'Oh, we can change societal taboos!' isn't a good argument at all. In fact, it's a terrible argument that can be used for anything that is currently illegal that doesn't involve murder. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the right, in fact I type that out pretty much every single time I post here. No, I just think that there are more important things, and I also think that, even if this does happen, you will be stared at. If you want to walk around naked in the summer, and if it was legal, you are free to do so. Other people are also free to look, and they will look. People are going to move to the other side of the street. You can't stop that, because that's the culture here. If a man walks down the street without a shirt on, it's going to weird most people out. Everyone should be able to, but obviously you're not going to be let into most stores for the most part.
I think most people have agreed it should be legal. I don't see what your point is other than people should shut up and stop complaining about people looking.
You say "oh, we can change societal taboos!" isn't a good argument, which is true enough. But you're not giving the complete argument. The argument (as I understand it) is thus:
1. Some women would like to be able to go topless in the same situations in which men can.
2. In current social mores, these women would be treated as lewd, if not by law*, then by other people's reactions. This includes men staring.
3. These women do not like being treated as lewd for what they think is a non-sexual act.
4. There is no objective reason why women shouldn't be allowed to go topless.
5. We can change societal taboos.
1. The idea that women going topless is a non-sexual act should be promoted in order to change societal taboos so that going topless is not treated as lewd.
2. Women without tops can** and will complain about men staring at them sexually, like women with short skirts do, or women in pretty much any clothing short of a burqa.
*In most jurisdictions of the US, I believe
that the female breast counts for indecent exposure. I know there is a federal law exempting breastfeeding in federal buildings, so I'm assuming that's an exemption from something that exists. I know that in Vermont and California, nudity is legal. In Maryland, we rely on the common law definition of indecent exposure, and I couldn't find any case law as to whether breasts count or not.
**Yes, I know they have the legal right to complain, and no one is saying differently. I'm also saying they should be able to complain without people making forum topics complaining about them complaining.