What makes a "good" MMO? Beating WoW at it's own game

[Spambot5546]

Inspired by reading the Rift thread, where the discussion has turned to a series of MMOs and when/how they failed.

The question I ask is: what makes a "good" or "successful" MMO. Not necessarily what you want to see in an MMO. I know my ideal MMO is the kind of game only a few thousand people worldwide would play. I mean, what characteristics would an MMO have to have to be able to take on World of Warcraft?

[Izawwlgood]

I know my ideal MMO is the kind of game only a few thousand people worldwide would play.

Why on earth would you say that? Why not suggest an RPG with a multiplayer option?

Personally, I think an MMO needs class balance (which is no easy feat), giving all play styles and roles equal footing, snazzy art, customization of my avatar (something that WoW or EVE completely and utterly fails at, whereas a game like CoH did absolutely right), and lots of stuff to do. Personally, I think I'd get bored of any activity, no matter how awesome it is, if it was all I had to do; allowing different roles helps, but crafting, dynamic markets, pvp, silly achievements, etc, all help too.

I think I'd want to see WoW and EVE merge to shore one another's shortcomings. As far as I'm concerned, a game like WAR was a total success, and just didn't keep it's momentum. Crafting was pointless, and server imbalances meant you couldn't really progress unless you were on the right side of the right server.

[Spambot5546]

I know my ideal MMO is the kind of game only a few thousand people worldwide would play.

Why on earth would you say that? Why not suggest an RPG with a multiplayer option?

I phrased that poorly, what i meant was that almost no one but me would like my ideal MMO. I was trying to emphasize the part about this being about universal, rather than personal, appeal.

[Izawwlgood]

Could you perhaps describe what would be your ideal MMO then?

[mike-l]

Something to do at max level. Ideally both PvE and PvP. Balanced in both. Multiple avenues for advancement at max level (eg Rep Grinds, Crafting, etc in addition to the core PvE and PvP mechanics). Varying difficulties available for PvE. Frequent content releases. Variety of mechanics. Class differentiation.

[Gelsamel]

I know my ideal MMO is the kind of game only a few thousand people worldwide would play.

Why on earth would you say that? Why not suggest an RPG with a multiplayer option?

Personally, I think an MMO needs class balance (which is no easy feat), giving all play styles and roles equal footing, snazzy art, customization of my avatar (something that WoW or EVE completely and utterly fails at, whereas a game like CoH did absolutely right), and lots of stuff to do. Personally, I think I'd get bored of any activity, no matter how awesome it is, if it was all I had to do; allowing different roles helps, but crafting, dynamic markets, pvp, silly achievements, etc, all help too.

Really? I thought EVE does it wonderfully, although it needs more parts (though I give them leniency, it's new and we don't have walking around stations yet so options don't pay off yet). WoW, not so much, but WoW is more about assembling your gear and looking epic when you are epic. That is one of the things I liked about WoW, your progression was evident on your character. You could look at yourself and think "Man, I am badass". This is one of the reasons why I thought Champions Online didn't do it well (Donno how different CoH/CoV/DCUO is). One of the thing a lot of MMOers want is to see and feel the rewards for their effort, especially if it's grindy, and so having a static character seems really boring to me as far as character customization goes.

It also doesn't help that the superhero staple of having two main tones for the character's outfit is just... really horrible from a character design point of view. It makes it really hard to give a 'feel' to your costume that expresses some of characteristics of character. Of course you can yourself avoid that, but a lot of other characters in the game use it and it ends up making the game feel weird. I can understand that though, some people might be really into the superhero thing.

I also think that making levels a method of progression rather than a method of learning is not necessarily all that good... but apparently WoW gets away with it so maybe I'm wrong there.

[psion]

Well, MMO itself is an identifier, a subgenre. There's MMOFPS, MMORTS, and etc. None that have been too successful, but that's not necessarily because it's impossible. I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but this somewhat falls into my point.

Speaking on MMORPGs, I think the genre is largely unexplored. WIth games like Mortal and Love (and others currently in secret development) I don't think I can even begin to identify what makes a "good" MMORPG. Even the traditional model of MMORPG that we've been developing for over a decade is almost untangible. It can be warped in different directions and still provide a positive experience. It depends on the whole package, even things outside of the develoer's control. Hell, even when something is decidedly good for a traditional MMORPG, everyone complains that they've seen it before or that it's copying some other game, and that they want something different.

It's far easier to identify what makes an MMORPG bad because there's a context to compare everything to. I can look at Warhammer Online, the context of it, and say, "Yeah, I think this tier system is counter-intuitive to your current design." I can look at FFXIV and say, "Yeah, there's really nothing interesting for the players to do. And other stuff." I can look at every MMO and identify a problem. WoW has the least serious problems of any MMORPG I've played, which is maybe why it's the most successful, or maybe not.

[Izawwlgood]

Really? I thought EVE does it wonderfully, although it needs more parts (though I give them leniency, it's new and we don't have walking around stations yet so options don't pay off yet).

Are you referring to the 'multiple avenues of activities for characters to undertake' thing or the 'character customization' thing?

If the former, than meh, about as many as WoW, except a single character can do it all, except it's typically not about quality, but quantity in Eve...

If the latter, than not even a fucking little bit. My friend in California flies the same Brutix as you do, as the Chinese ISK farmer, as my Australian buddy. The elaborate and sophisticated character portrait creator is striking less relevant in terms of customizing a character than the monicker you assign yourself at creation. Are you a three year old character flying a tech 2 fitted ship? Hey cool, I am as well! We probably have EXACTLY the same combat skills trained.

[Gelsamel]

Oh, you meant in terms of skills and such? Okay. Then Champions is junk because despite supposed mix-and-match ability it's often stupid to go anything but cookie cutter and the way it's set up you often need to be deep in the trees due to natural synergy or even use requirements.

EVE is an issue yes, but I was refering to specifically the portrait customization, which I believe they introduced because they're doing a characters walking around the station thing soon, yeah? So that should be good in terms of aesthetics. I'm not an old character so you'd know more about role customization than I would.

[SecondTalon]

This thread is open enough that it means in terms of Everything.


A Good MMO will make new players feel like they're contributing and keep old players interested seeing new things.

A Good MMO has no clearly defined End, unless that End is built into the fabric of the game (MMORTS/MMOTBS game ending when Blue defeats Red, Yellow and Green. MMORPG ending when either The Dark One rises or the Shining Light is discovered. MMOFPS ending when a number of players equal to the population of mainland China is killed.)

A Good MMO will have options. A Warrior will not take the same Talents as every other warrior, and Frellian Warriors will be equal to Skarian Warriors while relying on a different playstyle and flavor. Skyreaver Pilots will not all have the same Afterboost v6 and Mithrilium Plated Armor options. Every Technomancer will not *have* to learn Roomba Hack.

[Izawwlgood]

Ambulation in Eve is, as I see it, akin to how Tabula Rasa gave players a Unicorn Helm for the year anniversary.
Big. Fucking. Deal.
It's a purely cosmetic application that has nothing to do with the content itself; that Eve is tossing a small version of Second Life into it's works is a joke, at its best, a way to go dance with people your station camping, at its worst, a place for people who shuffled the 'Breast Size' slider all the way to the right to pretend to be Exotic Dancers (the item) and have iskies thrown at them.

But yes, pretty much what ST said. I'd like to add that there needs to be something for everyone; if I want to spend my day mining rocks, then I should be able to do so. If I want to spend my day smiting Necrobogs, that should be an option as well.

[Spambot5546]

This thread is open enough that it means in terms of Everything.

Yeah, i guess i was too vague. Is it too late to change the question from "what makes a good MMO" to "What would it take for a new MMO to be a WOW-Killer"?

[Izawwlgood]

Sexier elves and bigger rewards for hard work as opposed to good work? One of the ways I think WAR failed is that you couldn't progress if you weren't winning. Most MMO players don't have that in them.

[Gelsamel]

WoW doesn't do either of those anymore.

[Izawwlgood]

It absolutely does. You still gain JP and VP for finishing PUGs. In WAR, if you lose every instance you run, you don't get Renown, and you don't get to wear better gear.

[Gelsamel]

It absolutely does. You still gain JP and VP for finishing PUGs. In WAR, if you lose every instance you run, you don't get Renown, and you don't get to wear better gear.

What I mean is your work neither has to be hard, nor good, to get the rewards. But, I suppose you mean "hard work" as simply "physical time invested".

Also what the fuck is JP and VP?

[SecondTalon]

This thread is open enough that it means in terms of Everything.

Yeah, i guess i was too vague. Is it too late to change the question from "what makes a good MMO" to "What would it take for a new MMO to be a WOW-Killer"?

Well, as an answer that's direct enough to tell you everything you need to know while being vague enough to not actually mean a damned thing....

If you want to beat WoW, you must analyze WoW and discover objectively everything they're doing right, everything they're doing good enough, everything they're doing wrong, and everything they're ignoring (as well as the reasons they're ignoring it)

You must then make a game that does everything WoW does right right, everything they're doing good enough right, everything they're doing wrong AT LEAST good enough, and possibly incorporate a few things from what they're ignoring into Good Enough territory. That way you can at least say that you're doing something new and different, and not just polishing the tried and true gameplay.


So like I said, tells you exactly what you need to do, doesn't say a thing.

[Gelsamel]

But beat WoW in what way, just in quality? Even if you could make a game that was objectively better in every way it would still be difficult to beat WoW in sales and popularity. Blizzard is a ridiculously popular company. WoW has a huge and loyal fanbase, most of which have an interest and investment in staying on WoW. In terms of money/popularity. I don't think anything is going to beat WoW until WoW is discontinued, if ever (WoW 2, maybe).

[SecondTalon]

IF you deliver an experience that is superior in every way to WoW, then yes, you can beat it in relatively (2-3 years) short order. Otherwise, you're going to quietly fade away if you were shooting to be huge. If you're shooting to just deliver a niche experience, that's easy enough.

[WarDaft]

To beat WoW, you have to have an easy way to achieve tangible progress, hide people who have progressed further than you either partially or entirely, and have no foreseeable end to your accruement of power.

Oh, and it has to actually be fun to play on the very short (talking seconds to minutes length) scale.

[Gelsamel]

To beat WoW, you have to have an easy way to achieve tangible progress, hide people who have progressed further than you either partially or entirely, and have no foreseeable end to your accruement of power.

Oh, and it has to actually be fun to play on the very short (talking seconds to minutes length) scale.

So, facebook games?

Honestly I'd say medium and atmosphere are so important. It matters that WoW is so much smoother than any other MMO in movement and combat. When I'm a hunter I can run, jump, spin, shoot, land, keep running and there is no jolting between animations, weird lag compensation or anything like that. That matters, that is -huge-. It makes your connection to your character closer, because when you push the buttons stuff happens and not in a weird contrived way. And not in a way that you wouldn't expect natural movements to occur (like jolting, poor transition animations, etc).

[WarDaft]

So, facebook games?

Does that describe them? The extent of my interaction with Facebook was to reserve my screen name so no one else can have it, and that's quite literally it.

It matters that WoW is so much smoother than any other MMO in movement and combat. When I'm a hunter I can run, jump, spin, shoot, land, keep running and there is no jolting between animations, weird lag compensation or anything like that. That matters, that is -huge-. It makes your connection to your character closer, because when you push the buttons stuff happens and not in a weird contrived way. And not in a way that you wouldn't expect natural movements to occur (like jolting, poor transition animations, etc).

That is actually a point I made myself in another thread, and believe very strongly... though I do not think it matters to the majority of players who would end up playing any MMO that actually did manage to out-populate WoW.

[Gelsamel]

So, facebook games?

Does that describe them? The extent of my interaction with Facebook was to reserve my screen name so no one else can have it, and that's quite literally it.

Well, some people have fun in minutes and seconds on them. There is a very clear path of progress. Generally you click something, then you progress. Also, if it has a PvP aspect often it will only show characters who are +/- a certain amount of your level range so you never see anyone level 100 when you're 30, you'll see like 27-33.

For instance Knights of the Crystals or what ever by Square Enix, you literally just click to quest. There is no challenge to winning the quests you click them and you progress. There is some challenge to the bosses which is an extremely simple turn based RPG. And PvP is done against people in your level range (like 27-33 for a lvl 30) and is your attack vs. their defense, click to win or lose. All actions you take grant you EXP and thus progress you in at least some form. The quests go up a certain % each time you click the, after you hit 100% you complete the quest. Complete all the quests in the area and you can move onto the next area or do the 2 Star Versions of the quests (exactly the same, but more exp/gold).

[Rackum]

Something to do at max level. Ideally both PvE and PvP. Balanced in both. Multiple avenues for advancement at max level (eg Rep Grinds, Crafting, etc in addition to the core PvE and PvP mechanics). Varying difficulties available for PvE. Frequent content releases. Variety of mechanics. Class differentiation.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to deliver more than two of the three underlined items.

[Gelsamel]

Unless you completely seperate PvE and PvP mechanics, which I would say is total bullshit and fucks up your game a lot more than it lets you balance it.

[WarDaft]

When I say easy tangible progress, I mean you have to actually feel like you can do more and/or better after performing some relatively simple tasks.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to deliver more than two of the three underlined items.

Actually that's not true. You focus on PvP and Class Differentiation, then build the PvE strictly around the PvP capabilities of the classes. PvE progress can be achieved by awarding things that do not provide any benefit to PvP, a trivial example being <monster_x>slaying equipment.

If you have balanced PvP as your main goal, you have something definitive to balance PvE around, and in the long run it should make balanced PvE easier.


Unfortunately, truly balanced and competitive PvP is somewhat at odds with the concept of continual gains, and indeed, mass appeal. Really, all most people want is to feel like they got to pummel someone, they don't want the "half the time you're going to lose" part of balanced PvP. Particularly since with whether you have random teams or closely matched teams, who wins is going to feel at least somewhat random to any individual person, and people don't deal well with such randomness.

[Midnight]

There was an excellent eurogamer article about how everyone, from Blizzard to its competitors, know that no MMORPG is gonna have more active subscribers than WoW. Only Blizzard can kill it.

[Menacing Spike]

A tactical (grid, turn by turn), balanced MMO with frequent content updates.
Dofus is kind of like that but utterly fails at balance or content or crafting being interesting.

[Izawwlgood]

It absolutely does. You still gain JP and VP for finishing PUGs. In WAR, if you lose every instance you run, you don't get Renown, and you don't get to wear better gear.

What I mean is your work neither has to be hard, nor good, to get the rewards. But, I suppose you mean "hard work" as simply "physical time invested".

Also what the fuck is JP and VP?

JP and VP are the currency you receive for killing bosses in instances, and are cashed in for gear upgrades. Even assuming the worst group possible, you will probably kill a boss or few, which means no *skill* is involved in progressing, only putting in the time.
As opposed to WAR, where if you sucked, and lost, you didn't progress. Of course, because these are MMOs, your advancement is tied to the performance of the group, so if you were on a shitty team, you didn't advance, but at least WAR awarded points based on your performance in the group. If you were an awesome healer on a shitty team, you could still earn lots of points. Conversely, WoW just says "did you show up? Yes? here are some points".

[Gelsamel]

Did those points come out with Cataclysm or something? I didn't even realise they went that far.

[Izawwlgood]

JP were in WotLK, I dunno if they were earlier. I think they must have been.

It's the same shtick, if you simply show up, you'll gain points, and ultimately, get more powerful armor. WoW's biggest flaw in my opinion is that it rewards work, rather than skill. If you suck at the game, and play 10 hrs a day, you'll be better than someone whose really good and only plays 5. WoW needs more skill based progression.

[Lucrece]

JP were in WotLK, I dunno if they were earlier. I think they must have been.

It's the same shtick, if you simply show up, you'll gain points, and ultimately, get more powerful armor. WoW's biggest flaw in my opinion is that it rewards work, rather than skill. If you suck at the game, and play 10 hrs a day, you'll be better than someone whose really good and only plays 5. WoW needs more skill based progression.

That's only true for heroic dungeon lv gear. VP vendors-- for a DPS caster, for example-- at best offer cloak, ring, chest, pants, and gloves.

The more significant gear, like weapons, drops from raid bosses. And as time goes by the points become less valuable because people will start having access to heroic raid gear. We just killed Halfus and Chimaeron on heroic.

Heroics require skill. You can put in a pug and enable heroic mode for them, and they would wipe on end with Halfus. Hell, any unskilled people could not do Atramedes, and they would most certainly be unable to even touch Ascendant Council, let alone the end bosses. Al' Akir on normal is even more unforgiving than Halfus hardmode (and I'm talking 25man here).

The reward for time spent grinding is basically a failsafe to try to appease the morons who go on forums and whine about being unable to PUG shit. The game is so gracious so as to even offer decent gear to inadequate people as a consolation prize, just for sticking around with the game. Any other MMO will keep you without gear gains.

[Telchar]

The problem you run into the "Everyone has a cookie cutter build!" is that if your combat system relies on math and your build does things to those maths, then there are optimum builds for given situations.

You can diversify that by having different kinds of fights and this different optimum builds you're still going to funnell people who want to be really good into a set number of builds for optimim dps/tanking/healyness/etc...

[Izawwlgood]

That's only true for heroic dungeon lv gear. VP vendors-- for a DPS caster, for example-- at best offer cloak, ring, chest, pants, and gloves.

Right, but again, JP or drops, if you do enough of it, eventually it'll be yours. WoW rewards skill by getting you there faster. Just showing up, over and over, will get you there as well.

This is not how WAR was run; it was possible to put 100 hrs of gaming into WAR, and only marginally improve your position. If you joined those instances, and sucked, you didn't gain points.

[Menacing Spike]

That's only true for heroic dungeon lv gear. VP vendors-- for a DPS caster, for example-- at best offer cloak, ring, chest, pants, and gloves.

Right, but again, JP or drops, if you do enough of it, eventually it'll be yours. WoW rewards skill by getting you there faster. Just showing up, over and over, will get you there as well.

This is not how WAR was run; it was possible to put 100 hrs of gaming into WAR, and only marginally improve your position. If you joined those instances, and sucked, you didn't gain points.

You don't get what he is saying: no matter the time spent, you can't get a weapon by wipefesting.

[Izawwlgood]

The difference between WoWs and WARs tolerance of 'not being great' is night and day. Yes, wiping everytime you get into a PUG means you won't progress, but you can be carried along by people who don't suck. In WAR, you earned points based on your performance. While a good team could carry you along, you wouldn't earn as many points as someone who is doing well.

My point is that in WoW, if you play long enough, you'll get good gear. That simply isn't true in WAR.

Personally, I think a good MMO is one that favors WARs system over WoWs.

[Lucrece]

The difference between WoWs and WARs tolerance of 'not being great' is night and day. Yes, wiping everytime you get into a PUG means you won't progress, but you can be carried along by people who don't suck. In WAR, you earned points based on your performance. While a good team could carry you along, you wouldn't earn as many points as someone who is doing well.

My point is that in WoW, if you play long enough, you'll get good gear. That simply isn't true in WAR.

Personally, I think a good MMO is one that favors WARs system over WoWs.

Then you didn't play WAR in its beginning, particularly city sieges, where doing the objectives would actually hurt your contribution as opposed to exploiting certain class abilities and getting in the right group to inflate your gearing points. Or that your gear acquisition was still influenced by stupid random rolls. Or that the gear you worked for was so stupidly itemized (Weaponskill on mage gear, REALLY?!! BALLISTIC on healer gear?!!! WTF).

And good luck having one of the very few guilds who downed Lich King Heroic 25man carrying you unless you paid them a healthy sum of real-life currency or paid like 100k gold for the title.

You can't really get carried in hard modes at all. And by the point where a guild can afford to carry someone through a hard mode encounter, they've already trivialized the encounter by gearing and are likely sitting at the next tier of content-- making the carrying completely irrelevant by then.

You mistake normal modes-- which allow people to gear up if they're decent just so that they can see the content AND story-- with the real test of skill, which hard modes are.

WAR didn't reward skill. It rewarded class stacking and zerging. The dungeons were so dull, buggy, and the mechanics so mindnumbingly simple compared to WoW dungeons, I could not stand its PvE endgame at all and opted for PvP. Except what was the PvP? Outside of scenarios, a zergfest or "RvE" farming wimpy NPC's. City sieges were PATHETIC. You think they could not ruin Public Quests further, but they managed to one-up themselves right there with a city siege being whether you could throw in a big enough zerg.

[Izawwlgood]

I don't disagree, aspects of WAR encouraged zerging, City Sieges especially. As for the gear weirdness you're talking about, I never saw, but admittedly, only played two classes to 40 (Zealot and Chosen).

WoWs endgame content is zerg dependent as well, and yes, you can't get carried through it to get 356+ items. But at least WARs renown system meant that you could hit 40 being an idiot, and never get to wear the good gear. And by good gear, I mean anything above the basic quest crap. WoWs 'you're an idiot but you can get this far' limit goes way beyond the 85 quest crap. The number of people running heroics who still don't understand how to maximize their dps or even use their abilities is stunning. If WoW was run like WAR, you wouldn't even be able to queue for heroics until you'd accumulated sufficient RR pts, and as I said, in WAR, unlike WoW, accumulation of RR pts came with superior performance in instances. WoW has honor points, which would be good except pvp gear basically means that again, people who have simply been at it longer will win out for having higher resilience.

[Kag]

Which is irrelevant, because gear isn't a very fun way to reward players.

Also, give players lots and lots of options, let them find ways to make them work together. If people are still discovering new and powerful ways to play well into the life of a game, it does wonders for the community.

[nowfocus]

I think the rewards in MMOs need to be far less permanent - either through gear that degrades over time, or status symbols that don't impact gameplay, or standardized gear for PvP.

Think TF2. The game is fun enough to play on its own for hours, it relies on skill, there are tons of different classes, and its well balanced. The items you get generally offer customization, not massive power increases, and people still go nuts over the newest hat. That's the model I'd like to see.