xkcd

by **EsotericWombat** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:09 am UTC

A group of us who are socially connected via these very forums have created a group called [Team Respect]. We were inspired to get active after watching the recent Penny Arcade dickwolves debacle and lamenting the missed opportunity for constructive dialogue.

We'll be attending PAX East and are going to try to get as many people as possible united under the common cause of being respectful and inclusive. That doesn't mean everyone needs to agree on everything - but we in the gaming community do need to step up the maturity and be able to discuss our disagreements without namecalling and harsh dismissals.

Please, spread the word. We're feminist/rape survivor/LGBTQ friendly. We're working on accelerating twitter awareness, populating our own forums to generate gaming community themed discussion. Check out our mission statement and if you like what you see - blog us, tweet us, link us. We need your support.

by **Jorpho** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:48 am UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:We were inspired to get active after watching the recent Penny Arcade dickwolves debacle and lamenting the missed opportunity for constructive dialogue.

Did something happen above and beyond the usual dickery in order to prompt this action?

by **SecondTalon** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:04 am UTC

Just Mike Stayin' Classy

by **Hawknc** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:25 am UTC

Rather difficult for me to get to PAX, but I'm exceedingly for this idea. The whole dickwolves thing has me very angry at a culture that I consider myself part of, and I think a lot of the conflict could be solved by just sitting down and listening instead of mouthing off about censorship or being oversensitive.

by **Izawwlgood** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:42 am UTC

I think there are a couple nuances to this controversy, and EW, I hope TeamRespect doesn't simply cast itself as being anti-DickWolves.

Disappointed as hell in PA's handling of this issue, but also disappointed that people have made DickWolves into a symbol of PAs disrespect. Now the fights over a non-related joke, and 'freedom of speech' is suddenly something worth thumping your chest over. :roll:

by **Jorpho** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:51 am UTC

SexyTalon wrote:Just Mike Stayin' Classy

Ah, the literal dickwolves debacle.

...

Hmm. It seems at this stage that even commenting about not wanting to make a comment in this instance is a comment with potential implications.

by **EdgarJPublius** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:54 am UTC

I think Wil Wheaton's law is a great way to frame the 'dickwolves' static.

I certainly don't want to tell anyone what they can or can't find offensive or rude (learned that lesson I have

) but neither do I want to tell anyone what they can or can't find entertaining or humorous.

by **Hawknc** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:01 am UTC

Indeed, and I think it's important to understand that nobody is saying you can't find PA funny. That's a miscommunication that seems to be fuelling a lot of the conflict. But when it extends to hurling abuse at rape survivors and making death threats, it's gone a bit far.

by **Retne** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:27 am UTC

I had no idea about this and now I'm sad.

by **Menacing Spike** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:50 am UTC

I don't understand why people are so angered by the dickwolves part. People, did you even read the comic? Fruit fucker, sucking 100 horse cocks in a row, etc etc?
If that stuff offends you why goddamn read it?

Do you sincerely think "rape culture" will be somehow more prevalent as a result of this comic? "Oh, this guy is raped by dickwolves. I should definitely rape more."
I mean, look a this graph

Spoiler:

source
Horrible rape porn became widespread (thanks, internets), yet the rate kept plummeting down. There seems to be an inverse correlation. I really don't understand the "rape culture" argument.

Also, death threats went on both sides, yannow. This "debate" seems more like two angry mobs than reasonable people discussing. This offends me far more than the rape comic.

by **Retne** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:32 am UTC

I think the problem is both sides seem to refuse to understand each other. I thought the comic was funny. I thought the initial criticism was a little out of bounds. I thought the PA response was horrible. It also revealed a certain ugly bias of the dudes at PA. If they had just said sorry like they do for just about everything else there would not have been any sort of issue worth mentioning. Instead they belittled a rape victim. That is not an appropriate response.

I also thought it was a bit hypocritical of Jerry to take offense at someone making a death threat joke on twitter. It was obviously commentary on PA's stance and not an actual threat. So why is it OK to take that joke seriously but rape should be for the lols?

That is what I don't like about this. It has actually managed to ruin my enjoyment of anything PA now because all I will be able to think about is how fucking block headed they are being about such a simple subject. It makes me sad too because I actually quite enjoyed a lot of what they were doing.

by **Hawknc** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:08 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:I don't understand why people are so angered by the dickwolves part. People, did you even read the comic? Fruit fucker, sucking 100 horse cocks in a row, etc etc?
If that stuff offends you why goddamn read it?

Because PA's funny shit. At least, that's my reason for reading it. I even thought The Sixth Slave was funny(ish). But some people, some subset of them rape survivors, found it decidedly unfunny and/or triggering. I'm sure we both agree that they have a right to let PA know that they thought it crossed a line.

Do you sincerely think "rape culture" will be somehow more prevalent as a result of this comic? "Oh, this guy is raped by dickwolves. I should definitely rape more."
I mean, look a this graph
Spoiler:

source
Horrible rape porn became widespread (thanks, internets), yet the rate kept plummeting down. There seems to be an inverse correlation. I really don't understand the "rape culture" argument.

I'll be honest, I haven't seen an instance of someone saying the comic was responsible for any increase in rape. I've seen it as a strawman, but never as an actual argument against PA. Shakesville covers this particular argument much more eloquently than I'll be able to, though.

Also, death threats went on both sides, yannow. This "debate" seems more like two angry mobs than reasonable people discussing. This offends me far more than the rape comic.

The very purpose of Team Respect is to facilitate reasonable discussion, so I'm glad you're willing to participate in that.

by **Jorpho** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:54 pm UTC

Retne wrote:I had no idea about this and now I'm sad.

Yes, that sums it up nicely.

I for one had never seen nor heard of anything like "trigger warnings" anywhere until now, even on major news sites covering stories about real horrors.

by **Izawwlgood** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:27 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:I'll be honest, I haven't seen an instance of someone saying the comic was responsible for any increase in rape.

Which is part of why I think PA's response was so horrible. I have no issue with the comic, and I have no issue with people saying they thought it was triggering and offensive. It could have ended there, but then PA decided to make a comic trivializing those who were upset about it, and rather than quietly wear a Dick Wolf shirt, someone decided to make a TeamRape twitter and Gabe decided to let everyone know he'd be wearing his... and on and on and on.

by **Jessica** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:59 pm UTC

I wish you luck in your endeavor to bring respect to gamers.

by **Bhelliom** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:20 pm UTC

Sigh. Why can't this whole situation just go away? I think the dickwolves shirt is funny. The spiraling out of control conflict over it is not. Death threats? Seriously?

At what point will people be unable to say or do anything because it may "trigger" someone, somewhere? If you find something unpleasant, stop exposing yourself to it. Please don't try to convince everyone else it is terrible and cause a huge shitstorm over it.

Especially the whole dickwolves thing. Oh no, a pretend person in a pretend magical world is portrayed as having been raped by a pretend monster. Guess we may as well ban World of Warcraft or Dungeons and Dragons. How do you think all those half-breeds came about? I seriously doubt that an Orc and a Elf fell in love. Or whatever.

What if my last girlfriend died when she slipped on a dropped spoonful of pudding? I demand that we stop making pudding because now I get triggered whenever I see pudding on the floor.

Really folks, this is just silly. Let the dickwolves thing just pass on into obscurity. No one will care in a couple of months.

by **Princess Marzipan** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:30 pm UTC

It's not about DICKWOLVES.

It's about working toward creating an environment such that the next time something like dickwolves happens, it doesn't turn into a shitstorm.

You're basically asking people to stop feeling the way they do and stop complaining. Complaints are valid and there's no reason they should be disregarded without listening to them and understanding the issue.

by **bigglesworth** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:31 pm UTC

And that's aside from the fact that Bhelliom is complaining about complaining...

by **Izawwlgood** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:32 pm UTC

I think this is the crux of the argument. A simple "We're sorry this offended people", or even not doing a "Hey offended people: Fuck you" would have been acceptable. Instead, PA basically belittled people who were offended by it, and then a bunch of assholes cemented the notion that some people are really, really insensitive.

And unfortunately, one of those individuals was Mike.

by **Princess Marzipan** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:"Hey offended people: Fuck you"

This is really what the problem is. And it's been done REPEATEDLY. And it needs to stop.

by **podbaydoor** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

Bhelliom, try being triggered sometime over a legitimately traumatizing event. Perhaps you might have some more empathy after that.

by **Princess Marzipan** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:17 pm UTC

Anybody have ideas on how to counter the whole "why are we still talking about dickwolves" line BEFORE it comes up?

by **hanecter** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

Because we're decent human beings who give a shit about each other?

by **doogly** » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:22 pm UTC

Anyone remember when PA offended gamestop customers? You may not, because it didn't turn into a shitstorm, because their immediate response was loaded with respect and empathy. Maaaaaybe that would have been the right sort of courtesy to extend rape victims.
Ref:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/8/25/

by **Jorpho** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:05 am UTC

Oh, I like this: http://rikibeth.livejournal.com/484548.html

"Personally upsetting". I'll have to remember that one. (Really.)

by **hanecter** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:24 am UTC

I don't know that "personally upsetting" communicates the gravity of people's responses when they are triggered.

by **EmptySet** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:13 am UTC

Bhelliom wrote:Sigh. Why can't this whole situation just go away? I think the dickwolves shirt is funny. The spiraling out of control conflict over it is not. Death threats? Seriously?

At what point will people be unable to say or do anything because it may "trigger" someone, somewhere? If you find something unpleasant, stop exposing yourself to it. Please don't try to convince everyone else it is terrible and cause a huge shitstorm over it.

...how, precisely, do you suggest people stop "exposing" themselves to shirts which random people are wearing on the streets? Should they all lock themselves in their basements? Super-glue a blindfold to their face? Replace their eyes with cybernetic copies which automatically censor the clothing of passers-by?

by **Jorpho** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:42 am UTC

Can it not be said that there are innumerable T-shirts far more likely to cause offense (and far easier to purchase) than one that ambiguously reads "dickwolves" ? When I read the OP, I thought "dickwolves" had merely evolved into a convenient term for those who exhibit dickish behavior.

But then, I suppose that's not the point, and that the creation and sale of the shirts in the first place signified a disregard that some found objectionable.

Gah, talking about this is hard.

by **GhostWolfe** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:04 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:This "debate" seems more like two angry mobs than reasonable people discussing. This offends me far more than the rape comic.

This is exactly what [Team Respect] is about. It might have been inspired into action by what happened over at PA, but it's about inclusiveness and understanding for all gamers, everywhere.

/angell

by **Bhelliom** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:49 am UTC

I was thinking about this more today as I went about my day, cause it was bothering me. I admit that I have no "triggers." And I knew when typing that post, that someone would helpfully pipe up about me not understanding a trigger until I have one. At least until I have a legitimate one. And who decides what is legitimate? Spilled pudding is not a trigger for you because you never had a spilled pudding related trauma. You saying that my (pretend) trigger is not valid is exactly how lots of other people feel about YOUR particular trigger. The thing is, lots of people do not have these triggers, and will likely never understand. So what do we do? Why is a random person wearing a t-shirt such a problem? It is just a goddamn t-shirt.

It is unreasonable to to think one can just sanitize the world. It is life, you are stuck in it with everybody else. Horrible things happen. Not talking about horrible things, whatever they may be, is not going to make horrible things stop happening.

Yeah Mike from PA pulled a dick move in his response to the complaints. But as far as I can tell, this has always been the case. Those PA guys do whatever the hell they want, and always have. I mean, look at the Fruit F*cker. That is a character that literally rapes fruit to get the juice out. Or the drunk and surly divx box. I imagine that someone who grew up with an abusive alcoholic for a parent might have issues with that. Why wasn't there a shitstorm for those characters?

Do what you feel you need to do, [Team Respect]. Just please try to understand that there may be a bunch of people who will never understand exactly what it is that you want them to do.

Dang, this IS tough to talk about.

by **poxic** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:07 am UTC

Think of it this way.

Many years ago, American blacks were overwhelmingly targeted for lynching. It's still a sensitive topic, so someone running around in the southern US with a t-shirt saying "Team Lynch" will probably be shut down pretty quickly, free speech or no. It's just rude and assholish to make light of such a serious issue.

Today, about one in six women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime, and that's only the reported assaults. Most rapes and attempted rapes go unreported. There is a serious amount of trauma and related PTSD going on out there.

Why is it more acceptable to run around in a t-shirt that says "Team Rape" than one that says "Team Lynch"?

by **Xeio** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:08 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:I don't understand why people are so angered by the dickwolves part. People, did you even read the comic? Fruit fucker, sucking 100 horse cocks in a row, etc etc?
If that stuff offends you why goddamn read it?
Because PA's funny shit. At least, that's my reason for reading it. I even thought The Sixth Slave was funny(ish). But some people, some subset of them rape survivors, found it decidedly unfunny and/or triggering. I'm sure we both agree that they have a right to let PA know that they thought it crossed a line.

Sure, as long as they don't believe PA is going to change over it. Some people thought it was hilarious, some didn't, the latter can't force their sense of humor on everyone else.

Granted, I think their response was a bit overly flippant, though I'm not sure it's clear why they bothered to respond in the first place (this isn't the first time they've ever gotten e-mails from offended people, is it? or did the shakesville post just bring everything to a new level...?).

by **Hawknc** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:14 am UTC

Precisely - this isn't the first time they've said something controversial. Every other time they apologise or they ignore, but this time, they mock. Rape survivors take issue with the comic and they publicly humiliate them with a comic and a t-shirt. That's...pretty fucking horrible.

by **Bhelliom** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:26 am UTC

Ok, mocking rape victims isn't cool. But I didn't get the impression that they were mocking when I read the "apology" post . Could somebody link to the thing that mocked? Either I missed it/ didn't read it or just didn't leave that impression. Either way, I would like to read exactly what is was again to see what was said.

[EDIT]: Just went back and re-read the comic, the apology comic, and the news posts. I do not see where they mock anyone. One of you must point it out for me exactly, I guess.

[2nd EDIT]: Ok, found the pratfall article thing where someone obsessively cataloged everything that happened in all media streams. I see that most of the "mocking" and such occurred on twitter weeks or months after the whole thing got rolling. I can honestly say that in his position I would most likely be pretty snarky (also seemed like a bunch of good old sarcasm) if months after the apology the shit was STILL flying. Yeah, I bet he was tired of it all by then. Good grief.

by **Hawknc** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:44 am UTC

The comic (the reasons for why it's offensive I linked to earlier) and the t-shirt is pretty well-known.

by **EmptySet** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:50 am UTC

EmptySet wrote:...how, precisely, do you suggest people stop "exposing" themselves to shirts which random people are wearing on the streets? Should they all lock themselves in their basements? Super-glue a blindfold to their face? Replace their eyes with cybernetic copies which automatically censor the clothing of passers-by?

Jorpho wrote:Can it not be said that there are innumerable T-shirts far more likely to cause offense (and far easier to purchase) than one that ambiguously reads "dickwolves" ? When I read the OP, I thought "dickwolves" had merely evolved into a convenient term for those who exhibit dickish behavior.

Yeah, but my point wasn't so much about the actual content or offensiveness of the shirts. What I'm saying is that "don't like, don't read" doesn't really work for clothing worn in a public place. If you don't want to read the comic itself, well, you don't have to. In contrast, you can't really "avoid exposing yourself" to what other people might be wearing in public, at least not in any reasonable way. Now, that doesn't mean we have to ban the shirts outright and anybody who wears one is automatically a terrible person, just that "don't look at it if you don't like it" isn't really applicable when discussing them.

In other words, the argument presented was flawed. I'm not saying anything about the conclusion, save that the argument given does not support it (or not very well, at any rate).

by **Bhelliom** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:54 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:The comic (the reasons for why it's offensive I linked to earlier) and the t-shirt is pretty well-known.

I really didn't pick up mocking from this comic at all. The DO say rape is bad, they hate the act and the people who commit it, and tell the people doing it to stop. What should they have said?

by **poxic** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:59 am UTC

... You aren't good at reading tone, are you?

Edit: let's look at it without the words. Do these look like apologetic, un-sarcastic, totally sincere faces?

Spoiler:

by **Bhelliom** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:04 am UTC

I read tone just fine.
Yes, the first panel does sound like a child being forced to admit they did wrong by a parent, but the part where they mention that it was an imaginary creature in an imaginary world is still completely valid.

[EDIT]: removing the words.....They always look like that. They are cartoon characters.

by **phlip** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:08 am UTC

poxic wrote:... You aren't good at reading tone, are you?

Let's calm down, this is exactly the road we don't want to go down...

Bhelliom: The problem with the comic is it's misinterpreting (probably unintentionally, but still) the response to the comic as "using rape as a joke causes people to become rapists", and then severely mock that position. And by assigning that position to the people who responded to the first comic, they're mocking them too, even though that isn't actually their position.

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