xkcd

by **Mavketl** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

Yeahhhhh, I think it's obvious on which side of this I'm going to come down.

Vote: Weeks

For previously mentioned reasons, and for attacking cjdrum that.. enthusiastically. He has been pretty obviously town all game long.

(@ForAllOfThis: I still to object to the "people who didn't vote m_p D1 are scum", though.

)

by **ForAllOfThis** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:46 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Um, hello? Wei wasn't scum. He also had little pings according to you; you even voted for him. I'm not sure you're analyzing the data correctly.

I made my reasons for my vote on Wei clear, he pushed through a FoS on Cj early day 2, as if he was trying to start a bandwagon. He even admitted his reasoning was farfetched and wrong, which just shows he was playing town rather badly.

Of course, to you, everyone must have noticed. Yes, I get that you won't change your mind.

The main difference between you and me is that, while you charge headlong into the street without looking to the sides because the lights are red, I don't.

I'm willing to put my votes on who I find scummy, rather than withold them, which is the only difference.

Ninjaed by mav -

That's ok, I know the flaws with my argument. Even if I am right it still ends up half town half scum not voting (clearly shown by the lynch on Wei), but I've already stated the reasons why I think scum would have chosen not to vote.

by **Weeks** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

cjdrum wrote:Weeks, can you please just answer the questions, rather than sidetracking and accusing FAOT of "charging headlong" into the metaphorical street. Which, uh, can you explain exactly what FAOT did that you didn't do?

vote: Weeks

For blatantly disagreeing with everybody, and not even attempting to see where we're coming from.
Also, because Mavketl just spelled it out in front of him, and he's attacking FAOT, who was mainly defending me. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make everybody else wrong.
As well as accusing FAOT for "charging into the street". As far as I know, you're talking about him voting on you, but you were the one who voted on me first!

As you might not have noticed because you lurked the whole fucking D2, I made a longish post explaining to FOAT where his points seemed unreasonable. Here, let me link it for you.

Ok, I knew I should've been more explicit, so let me just tell you that I'm not voting for FOAT because he's charging into the metaphorical street (that was mostly to make me look cool. Sorry.); I voted for him because (and some of these points come from my earlier analysis):

1) He initiated the whole argument that because we didn't vote for m_p and argued against him, we were scummy. He says he has evidence because GoP did this and he turned out scum. Yet weiyaoli did this too, and he turned out town! This is why I said, earlier, that he was exaggerating his point.
2) He fucking backed off when he weiyaoli was found town, but didn't hesitate to use the same flawed argument again to attack me.
3) He says I made the whole thing into a big argument, which is blat ant lies (first three posters to disagree and argue with FOAT: not me).
4) He himself just said at the beginning of the day that he was shocked about Trooper White. Don't you get it? Once you mentioned that you were X Z instead of X Y, it became exceedingly easy for scum to false claim Trooper [color], vanilla town. It already was suspicious that wei did it. This is also why I reconsidered you not being Trooper [color]. (I have not watched the movie. I don't know how likely it is for another char to be slightly altered this way, but I still considered it, from mere ignorance.) FOAT, again, doesn't hesitate to use this against me.
5) Can you see a trend here? This is what, in part, motivated my earlier metaphor. Of course, me not being FOAT, I can consider the possibility of him not being scum. But this is my best bet. VZ comes close, too.

Anything else? No? All right.

by **roband** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

cjdrum, I'd be under the impression that if you've asked for a replacement, you don't participate in the game any longer. Maybe I've got that wrong.

However, if you DO want to participate, please let the mods know and we will stop looking for a replacement for you.

by **cjdrum** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

Oh, yeah, no replacement any more please!

Just realised that I can actually contribute quite a bit.

I'm participating, stop trying to replace me!

by **roband** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:21 pm UTC

by **Chandani** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

...I would say you just attempted to use a replacement as a shield from criticism, but that wouldn't be right coming from me.

Umm...this whole Weeks argument? It seems like people are jumping on him quickly from exaggeration. I am willing to throw up an analysis of stuff if needed: I'm going to eat right.

by **ForAllOfThis** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:25 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:1) He initiated the whole argument that because we didn't vote for m_p and argued against him, we were scummy. He says he has evidence because GoP did this and he turned out scum. Yet weiyaoli did this too, and he turned out town! This is why I said, earlier, that he was exaggerating his point.
2) He fucking backed off when he weiyaoli was found town, but didn't hesitate to use the same flawed argument again to attack me.
3) He says I made the whole thing into a big argument, which is blat ant lies (first three posters to disagree and argue with FOAT: not me).

It doesn't take a genius to work out that there must be town players who didn't vote for m_p. All I said was that not-voting should be a considered factor on who we decide to vote. Wei did seem to agree that not voting for m_p so that someone else could be lynched was scummy, the same argument that you're mainly voting me for. I haven't backed off from anything. Order is irrelevant, you're the one who made it into such a big deal and seem to think that I'm suggesting everyone who didn't vote must be scum. This is clearly impossible, and twisting the argument I made into something else. If you disagreed with me so much and thought genuinely that I was scum, why did you follow my vote?

Weeks wrote:4) He himself just said at the beginning of the day that he was shocked about Trooper White. Don't you get it? Once you mentioned that you were X Z instead of X Y, it became exceedingly easy for scum to false claim Trooper [color], vanilla town. It already was suspicious that wei did it. This is also why I reconsidered you not being Trooper [color]. (I have not watched the movie. I don't know how likely it is for another char to be slightly altered this way, but I still considered it, from mere ignorance.) FOAT, again, doesn't hesitate to use this against me.

Except clearly Cj mentioned parallels before Trooper White was shown to be a role. This argument is meaningless given that fact.

Weeks wrote:5) Can you see a trend here? This is what, in part, motivated my earlier metaphor. Of course, me not being FOAT, I can consider the possibility of him not being scum. But this is my best bet. VZ comes close, too.

Anything else? No? All right.

I was actually considering the possibility that you might not be scum, until you placed a vote without reading or thinking on Cj hoping for a lynch on lurkiness. I would consider that this was a one-off mistake if you weren't acting so scummy upto now.

by **cjdrum** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:29 pm UTC

Chandani: Um, not really. I just had too many games going at the same time, and with people spurting out information (especially as I was flavour-blind and they were not), it was hard to follow this. Now, my other games are not exactly active at the present time.

About your point about Weeks - We might be exaggerating, but it seems as if Weeks is exaggerating about FAOT quite a bit more. Maybe we should stop going so hard against Weeks, but he has been blowing things a bit out of proportion himself.

Will take this into consideration.

Nice ninja, FAOT.

by **Chandani** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:44 am UTC

Sorry about that, cjdrum. Didn't realize the circumstances.
I'm going to bring up some points about this whole Weeks/FAOT discussion just to be fair.

ForAllOfThis wrote:
Weeks wrote:1) He initiated the whole argument that because we didn't vote for m_p and argued against him, we were scummy. He says he has evidence because GoP did this and he turned out scum. Yet weiyaoli did this too, and he turned out town! This is why I said, earlier, that he was exaggerating his point.
2) He fucking backed off when he weiyaoli was found town, but didn't hesitate to use the same flawed argument again to attack me.
3) He says I made the whole thing into a big argument, which is blat ant lies (first three posters to disagree and argue with FOAT: not me).

It doesn't take a genius to work out that there must be town players who didn't vote for m_p. All I said was that not-voting should be a considered factor on who we decide to vote. Wei did seem to agree that not voting for m_p so that someone else could be lynched was scummy, the same argument that you're mainly voting me for. I haven't backed off from anything. Order is irrelevant, you're the one who made it into such a big deal and seem to think that I'm suggesting everyone who didn't vote must be scum. This is clearly impossible, and twisting the argument I made into something else. If you disagreed with me so much and thought genuinely that I was scum, why did you follow my vote?

Bolded mine. Weeks' post about the subject was actually quite near the end of the whole discussion, as I looked at it. Here's your response to someone else, indicating it may have been brought up before...

FAOT wrote:
PhoenixEnigma wrote:I am also very distrustful of the VZ/FOAT position of suspecting people who didn't vote yesterday. Advocating that the townie thing to do would have been to (needlessly and knowingly) place oneself in a place to be suspected, creating wine and, arguably, increasing the odds of town being lynched day 2 is...well, wtf inducing, really. If I could vote for two people, I'd vote for both of them. As I can't, and don't really believe in FoS'ing...gah...scerw it, I'm not going to vote right now, because it's going to force me to come back and make another post in order to vote, and I need the motivation.

Yes because ignoring day one information is a townie thing to do? Whilst we're at it why don't we just ignore all the posts that were made on day one as well?

If you had read my posts you'd realise that I wasn't going "Gee Willikers you didn't vote for scum you MUST all be scum!!!" because that would be stupid. However, using it as evidence alongside how people were acting yesterday and today and you'll realise there is a pretty solid case for suspicion towards some individuals. You'll notice I haven't singled out anyone for not voting and based that on the sole reason for my suspicion.

It seems like lots of people were feeling like that you were implying that people who didn't vote=scum, and brought it up. Weeks did bring it up in a huge post, though, so maybe left an impression. And that post he made? It mostly focused on your accusations about him and his inaction over more_people, and ended with a smallish talk about his view on the votal thing. Also, I'm not sure what the importance of the underlined section (about wei) is, considering that it seems to be helping Weeks, which is something you might not approve of at this point...

FAOT wrote:
Weeks wrote:4) He himself just said at the beginning of the day that he was shocked about Trooper White. Don't you get it? Once you mentioned that you were X Z instead of X Y, it became exceedingly easy for scum to false claim Trooper [color], vanilla town. It already was suspicious that wei did it. This is also why I reconsidered you not being Trooper [color]. (I have not watched the movie. I don't know how likely it is for another char to be slightly altered this way, but I still considered it, from mere ignorance.) FOAT, again, doesn't hesitate to use this against me.

Except clearly Cj mentioned parallels before Trooper White was shown to be a role. This argument is meaningless given that fact.

If you want to be suspicious of Weeks, I think this is the best thing to base it off. cjdrum hinted waaaay back in D1 of having a role with a name similar to, but not exactly the same, as a character in the movie. That was a big discussion. Wei brought it up to suppport his claim. Claim turned out to be right, possibility of cjdrum being vanilla town increases.
Also because cjdrum voted for more_people and kept his vote there. If it was a vote, but then pulled out later or attempted to undo damage, it would be different, but cjdrum kept the position he had. Scum probably wouldn't have done that so early in the game.

So I guess both have been blowing things up a bit. If you guys want to keep your votes on Weeks for the cjdrum vote, don't see anything wrong with that.

by **PhoenixEnigma** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:46 am UTC

I was going to do a nice, neat analysis, but honestly, I don't really feel the need to having looked at what's happened in the past 24 hours or so. Let's recap, shall we?

Weeks lists cjdrum as the scummiest player still in the game, which is...baffling, to me, and votes for them. Statements here and later suggests they're not voting for scummyness as much as for lurkiness? Mavketl states the obvious. cjdrum pops in and advises they've asked to be replaced. Weeks unvotes, not because of Mav's comment, but because cjdrum has said they're asking for a replacement. FAOT votes Weeks largely based on what I've just outlined. Weeks...more or less makes an OMGUS post and vote.

Picking what looks to be easy targets, vote hopping, OMGUS'ing, quick to be defensive...I'm past pinging, there's warning klaxons going off here just from the past day or so.

Vote Weeks

by **cjdrum** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:53 am UTC

L-1 now? And apparently (as of about 10 minutes ago) roband is still looking for a replacement.

Who's being replaced, roband/Lataro? Or is it just pre-emptive so you can go "*snap* you're replaced" when somebody asks?
I probably won't be told

but it's worth a shot.

by **roband** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:33 am UTC

Wooy` has asked for a replacement. We're working on getting him replaced ASAP.

by **VectorZero** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:38 pm UTC

I'm not even going to try to pretend that I've properly caught up with the thread, but the bizarre analyses from weeks is good enough justification for a vote. Let's do this.
Vote: Weeks.

by **roband** » Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:39 pm UTC

Weeks has been lynched. 5 people voted for him, I will list them later, I guess.

Night actions as quickly as possible please. We'll retcon some flavour into here at some point.

Initial deadline for night is.... 30 hours from now (but it could well be shorter).

by **Lataro** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:31 am UTC

After so long under deep cover, you can lose sight of your priorities. It's a fucking mess. I used to work for the Boston PD... that seems like a lifetime ago. Costello is always going on about the cops and criminals bullshit, and somewhere, the line blurred. I lost sight of things....

I've done things I'm not proud of, but the sick thing is, I can't really say that it bothers me. When I first started out, I was full of fire and burning to take Costello down. It was in my blood, the thirst for justice against that lowlife. I... lost myself though, I got too comfortable in this new life undercover. That is, til Billy came along. When we learned he was a rat for the staties, it... re-awoke something deep within me. I felt a lick of those flames I used to burn with heating my soul. I knew then, I had to go in.

As I turn the corner, I see it. My old Precinct. Almost there... I can feel the weight lifting off my shoulders, the burden I had bore for so long. I know it's too late for me, I'm in too deep, but at least Costello will go down, and if only in my own mind, I'll of redeemed myself. I can't believe th----

"Hey boss, did you hear the news? Delahunt got hit by a bus yesterday, killed him flat out."

"Ain't that a shame." Costello replies, straightening his collar.

Weeks is dead, he was Timothy Delahunt, mafia goon. Bastardly Secret: If every other mafia member was dead before him, he could choose to half win with town coming forward, or earn a one-shot kill immunity, one-shot cop immunity, and the ability to double win if he could pull off a scum victory.

"Speaking of things that are a shame, did you see to that little task?" Costello continues.

"Sure did sir, I won't be letting you down."

"See to it that you don't." Costello replies.

The thing about police work is, sometimes you lose some good men, and all you can do is hope to balance that out by taking out enough scumbags to let their souls rest in peace. The loss of Billy though hit him hard. That kid had had so much ahead of him, to be cut down like that. To no good end either. That's what really bothered him. They were no closer to nailing Costello, and he couldn't lay that at Billy's grave marker as some kinda condolence.

That is just one of those things about the job though, eventually, you gotta be able to walk to your car at night and drive home, and leave these problems there. You'd go crazy otherwise. Twenty-three years on the force, and you learn that or go crazy. As he got in his car he saw the picture of his son on the instrument panel. Seeing that picture had always brought him so much comfort when dealing with a hard day like today. Knowing that as bad as things were, he was making it safer for his son. As he turned the key and prepared to head home, that was the last thought on his mind. It didn't even register to him as the flames engulfed him that life was over now. He died in that perfect moment of inner peace, as his car exploded.

PheonixEnigma is dead, he was Captain Queenen, head of the SIU. Mason Cop, Town.

Day Four starts now! 6 alive, 4 to lynch. Deadline at oh... Noon EST this Friday.

Oh, yeah.. Dotproduct has replaced Wooy`

by **dotproduct** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:47 am UTC

Would we have been informed if it was MYLO or LYLO?

by **cjdrum** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:55 am UTC

So, uh... Who's still alive? Wait, got it:

FAOT, cjdrum, Mavketl, VectorZero, Chandani, dotproduct (Wooy')

We should have Trooper Brown, Trooper Green (hey, that's me!), one scum, a Mason, someone with an NK and one other.
Could there be more than one scum left? I guess there's the possibility... But I think the more important question is whether the NKer is Indy or Town. Either way, they've done pretty well with the killin'!

by **Lataro** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 3:04 am UTC

dotproduct wrote:Would we have been informed if it was MYLO or LYLO?

Yes, it is neither.

by **Weeks** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:47 am UTC

Lataro wrote:Bastardly Secret: If every other mafia member was dead before him, he could choose to half win with town coming forward, or earn a one-shot kill immunity, one-shot cop immunity, and the ability to double win if he could pull off a scum victory.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

by **Mavketl** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:48 am UTC

cjdrum wrote:someone with an NK and one other.

I thought Zid had an NK, and he died N2. We had only one NK (presumably the scum NK) in N3 from the looks of it. Probably no serial killer to worry about.

People who didn't vote for Weeks yesterday: Chandani, Wooy`.

My money's on Chandani, what with Weeks protecting her basically all game long.

by **ForAllOfThis** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:21 pm UTC

It would seem a reasonable follow on, Mav, although it wouldn't surprise me if weeks jumped on a townie to look less suspcious. Cj, we should be taking a flavour perspective, not a mafia perspective on who is remaining. We have sullivan, costello, madolyn, digman trooper brown? (possibly, but not definitely, with the different colours brown may have been ommited completely). We hay have possibly two scum remaining given we have sullivan and costello left, or sullivan could be an anti-town.

Chan is looking the most suspicous though, especially with yesterdays half-defense of weeks as the ship was sinking, and no vote. Chan did have quite an early vote on m_p day 1 though. My townie list looks something like this:

Cjdrum - Vanilla
Vectorzero
Mav
dotproduct
Chan.

I think I would be quite happy for a vote on chan or dotproduct at the moment.

by **cjdrum** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

Um. That isn't going to be helpful for me contributing. I was trying to work out stuff that I could.
That said, I noticed that you didn't mention Barrigan (who is a possibility, maybe instead of Madolyn), who would likely be a Costigan lyncher, or just plain scum. (I know this from researching my role - apparently he shoots down Brown at the same time)

Also Mav, you're right. I read Weeks dying as another NK :/

by **dotproduct** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:54 pm UTC

I managed to do that too.

So, I think this comes down to us following cjdrum?
Unless someone has information to claim. I don't have any.

by **Lataro** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:06 pm UTC

Actually, in retrospect, MYLO is technically possible right now. I'm sorry for this confusion, I made a mistake.

by **Mavketl** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:21 pm UTC

That means that we could lose after N4 (not after D4) if we mislynch, right?
(I'm not too familiar with how this MYLO thing works.)

by **Mavketl** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:22 pm UTC

EBWOP:

dotproduct wrote:I managed to do that too.

So, I think this comes down to us following cjdrum?
Unless someone has information to claim. I don't have any.

Do you have any sort of defense against the people saying they're fine with lynching you today? Because "let's just follow a townie who has no extra information on their intuitions" doesn't sound like optimal town strategy to me.

by **Lataro** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:29 pm UTC

Correct. It is possible for D5 to start in a situation where town has lost IF town is lynched D4.

by **Mavketl** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:39 pm UTC

So with six players, five after the lynch, that makes...

...two anti-town of the same faction and one night-kill (same faction because 2 town + 1 scum + 1 anti-town indy is not a loss, afaik), or
...two anti-town of different factions and two night-kills (1 town + 1 scum + 1 anti-town indy has to be town loss no?), or
...one anti-town and three night-kills

Any other options, barring revival and town lovers (one dies if the other does), which both seem unlikely with this flavour?

I'm thinking it's not the first one, since it's kind of unlikely the mod would mistake this situation for not-MYLO in that case. Three NKs seems a bit much (any vigs want to claim?), so I think we have one scum left and one anti-town and somehow 2 NKs?

Please provide alternate scenarios if you think I missed anything.

by **dotproduct** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:04 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:EBWOP:
dotproduct wrote:I managed to do that too.

So, I think this comes down to us following cjdrum?
Unless someone has information to claim. I don't have any.
Do you have any sort of defense against the people saying they're fine with lynching you today? Because "let's just follow a townie who has no extra information on their intuitions" doesn't sound like optimal town strategy to me.

Only one person said that today. If my role is plainly present, then I have that.

Proceeding as usual would allow any pro-town player who had information to use it to influence their own suggestions, at the cost of giving the anti-town players a hand in the process. Since I was only suggesting this for if no one claimed information, the benefit would only be if there was a pro-town player with information who, for some reason, did not claim that information, which would seem like bad strategy even if I hadn't made my suggestion.

Might as well see if I can get an answer:

Lataro: Would the game continue as usual if it was 1 Townie + 1 Mafia A + 1 Mafia B remaining?

by **roband** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:10 pm UTC

I might just step in, if that's ok?

In a situation like that, it would depend on the specific roles and abilities of the given roles. From the information you have provided, I couldn't possibly tell you the outcome.

Not that I would anyway.

by **cjdrum** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

I'd prefer a dotproduct lynch over Chandani, actually.

I think that it's likely that Weeks found somebody who was defending him (even slightly), and defending them to make it seem like they were scum together.

And I have to agree - don't follow me, I have no idea of the flavour, roles, other people's roles, etc. I may be confirmed Town, but that doesn't make me any more informed than anybody.

by **Mavketl** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:41 am UTC

If nobody is going to talk*, maybe we should consider a massclaim to root out the last two anti-town players. Y/N?

*Okay, not literally nobody, but still

by **ForAllOfThis** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:11 pm UTC

I was considering this last night ^, would exposing digman/madolyn be worth it? Given Cj is practically confirmed, then we would have 3/6 confirmed which would make it difficult for sullivan and costello to claim. At the very least we'd narrow it down to 3, which is a 2/3 chance of lynching scum/sk and if the claim works well maybe guaranteed. I think that's worth the risk.

Given the turbo nature of the game though if everyone doesn't get back to claim before deadline, could really mess us up.

by **Mavketl** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:15 pm UTC

Well, I'll super-definitely be around to claim. And in a turbo, with over 24 hours to go and not a lot of activity in the past 24ish hours, I can't imagine anyone is not going to be around.

But it does mean that we should decide on it within a few hours.

by **Mavketl** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:18 pm UTC

EBWOP: and honestly, I'd be fine with lynching anyone who does not post at all. The excuse "yeah I wasn't there I couldn't help it" is wearing thin this far into the game.

Chandani, for example, hasn't posted at all during D4. Nor has VectorZero. They should start doing that soon.

by **ForAllOfThis** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:23 pm UTC

Thats the problem if they are town, then scum could slip through with a false-claim. If they post then I'm happy with a mass-claim, so Vote: Y. If we're going to lynch them for not posting anyway, may as well do it without exposing our roles and keeping any power roles hidden.

by **Mavketl** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:27 pm UTC

Heh, I was a bit unclear. Basically I was working with the assumption that everyone would post, because it'd be really really anti-town if they didn't.

...so if, for some strange reason, they don't, I'd be willing to consider a lynch. But I don't think it will come to that.

by **Chandani** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:24 pm UTC

Hey, sorry about not posting.

Dunno about a massclaim: I don't have much experience in these situations so if you older players wish to go on with it, I don't mind. False-claiming would be harder for scum than in other games (limited roles), so it would work better.

by **VectorZero** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:24 pm UTC

Off at a conference with only mobile net, so won't be awesome posting, but...

I think dotproduct needs to do some good analysis; we've got nearly nothing to assess him on.

Does the fact this is mylo affect our planning? 1 scum in 4 would normally mean a NL to reduce risk of mislynch, I'm not sure OTTOMH whether that applies to what I'm assuming is 2/6.

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