Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

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Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Reaper » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:21 pm UTC

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ma ... tive-death
Indian police have detained two people after an angry mob of sacked workers burned to death a senior executive of a steel factory, an official said.

After learning they had been laid off, about a dozen workers attacked a vehicle carrying Radhey Shyam Roy as he was leaving the factory in eastern Orissa state on Thursday, dousing the Jeep with petrol and setting it on fire, said police superintendent Ajay Kumar Sarangi.

Two other people in the vehicle were allowed to flee but Roy, 59, was trapped inside and later died of severe burns, Sarangi said.

Police were questioning two workers who are likely to be arrested on murder charges, Sarangi said. The steel factory is in Bolangir district, 250 miles (400km) west of Bhubaneshwar, the capital of Orissa state.

Incidents of industrial violence are common in India, where workers often target executives in cases of wage disputes and job losses.

In 2008, scores of dismissed employees of an Italian manufacturing company, Graziano Trasmissioni India, used iron rods and wooden sticks to beat to death the company's local chief executive officer on the outskirts of New Delhi.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Goplat » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:23 pm UTC

Wait, why are Indian workers getting laid off now? Has an even poorer country for offshoring jobs to been found?

Edit: "poor" meaning low-wage.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Dark567 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:27 pm UTC

Goplat wrote:Wait, why are Indian workers getting laid off now? Has an even poorer country for offshoring jobs to been found?

A lot of those jobs are actually coming back to the US, after companies got relatively poor results from off-shoring. Part of my job is actually helping clients decide between off-shoring and using on-shore resources. A lot have been reversing course and moving onshore.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Internetmeme » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:26 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
Goplat wrote:Wait, why are Indian workers getting laid off now? Has an even poorer country for offshoring jobs to been found?

A lot of those jobs are actually coming back to the US, after companies got relatively poor results from off-shoring. Part of my job is actually helping clients decide between off-shoring and using on-shore resources. A lot have been reversing course and moving onshore.

That's...actually quite nice for us.

Bad for them, yes, but quite good for the US economy. Now if we could only get the factories back...who am I kidding. Americans won't "stoop to that level" and work for $1.25/hour in a factory.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

While it may be better than this alternative, would you want a homicidal mob working for you in the first place?

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Thesh » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:39 pm UTC

Internetmeme wrote:Bad for them, yes, but quite good for the US economy. Now if we could only get the factories back...who am I kidding. Americans won't "stoop to that level" and work for $1.25/hour in a factory.


No shit. Minimum wage prevents it. (Cost of living plays a much bigger role here)
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:59 pm UTC

Why are we talking about minimum wage and economic trends when someone got burned to death for firing employees? I mean seriously, what the fuck about a dozen workers.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:09 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:Why are we talking about minimum wage and economic trends when someone got burned to death for firing employees? I mean seriously, what the fuck about a dozen workers.

Oh, a little socialist revolution has you all in a tizzle. Waaaaaah. Look, I for one am glad to see this as I have already claimed the position of Comrade of Wall Up Against for Shooting Peoples At and seeing as it's the only job I'm able to get in this economy, I'm highly in the camp of workers' uprisings so that I can afford food that's more expensive than ramen noodles. I'm willing to work very hard at this job and contribute to the economy. If business goes well I may need additional comrades to keep up with the workload. So, is what you're saying that you want a small business to fail? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby engr » Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:59 pm UTC

Jahoclave wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Why are we talking about minimum wage and economic trends when someone got burned to death for firing employees? I mean seriously, what the fuck about a dozen workers.

Oh, a little socialist revolution has you all in a tizzle. Waaaaaah. Look, I for one am glad to see this as I have already claimed the position of Comrade of Wall Up Against for Shooting Peoples At and seeing as it's the only job I'm able to get in this economy, I'm highly in the camp of workers' uprisings so that I can afford food that's more expensive than ramen noodles. I'm willing to work very hard at this job and contribute to the economy. If business goes well I may need additional comrades to keep up with the workload. So, is what you're saying that you want a small business to fail? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!

Or maybe Jahoclave gets burned to death in his car by fellow revolutionaries (strangely, revolutionaries tend to end up against the wall after revolutions... courtesy of their comrades), which will help multiple hard-working folks - firefighters, fire investigators, coroners, police detectives, insurance company agents, journalists, automotive industry workers - to keep their jobs.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Jahoclave » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

engr wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:Why are we talking about minimum wage and economic trends when someone got burned to death for firing employees? I mean seriously, what the fuck about a dozen workers.

Oh, a little socialist revolution has you all in a tizzle. Waaaaaah. Look, I for one am glad to see this as I have already claimed the position of Comrade of Wall Up Against for Shooting Peoples At and seeing as it's the only job I'm able to get in this economy, I'm highly in the camp of workers' uprisings so that I can afford food that's more expensive than ramen noodles. I'm willing to work very hard at this job and contribute to the economy. If business goes well I may need additional comrades to keep up with the workload. So, is what you're saying that you want a small business to fail? WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?!

Or maybe Jahoclave gets burned to death in his car by fellow revolutionaries (strangely, revolutionaries tend to end up against the wall after revolutions... courtesy of their comrades), which will help multiple hard-working folks - firefighters, fire investigators, coroners, police detectives, insurance company agents, journalists, automotive industry workers - to keep their jobs.

Nope, the revolution comes with a free hoverboard for everyone. Seriously, way to kill the joke. I award you negative points.

Plus, in all honesty, do we think it was just that he fired them that caused them to light him on fire?

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:43 pm UTC

That's all the article said and we can't justify murder with "he probably deserved it" when there's no evidence.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Silastic » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:That's all the article said and we can't justify murder with "he probably deserved it" when there's no evidence.

He probably did deserve it..... but I rather think Jahoclave was being sardonic.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Iulus Cofield » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:47 pm UTC

Silastic wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:That's all the article said and we can't justify murder with "he probably deserved it" when there's no evidence.

He probably did deserve it..... but I rather think Jahoclave was being sardonic.


Deserved getting burned to death? Why?

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Silastic » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:10 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
Silastic wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:That's all the article said and we can't justify murder with "he probably deserved it" when there's no evidence.

He probably did deserve it..... but I rather think Jahoclave was being sardonic.


Deserved getting burned to death? Why?

I. was. being. sarcastic.

Would anyone really believe that anyone else "deserved" to get burned to death? For any reason? ......errrr, apart from the news item we've been talking about of course, they seemed to have very definite views on the matter.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby nitePhyyre » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:56 pm UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:That's all the article said and we can't justify murder with "he probably deserved it" when there's no evidence.

How about the evidence that they let 2 other people out of the car? Makes it kind of seem like at least some people thought this guy deserved it, considering they targeted him an only him.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:00 am UTC

Since when did we let lynchers be the arbiters of whether or not someone "deserves" to die? I'm honestly shocked you're even entertaining the idea of having this conversation.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby JonScholar » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:15 am UTC

I wouldn't rush too quickly to judge the workers here. While we don't know the specific facts about what happened, I have a feeling that it followed the standard formulation of labor vs. capital: workers get tired of being slaves and demand rights; capitalist, holding all the economic bargaining power, refuses; workers, having superior strength in numbers retaliate with force. It's tragic, but we can't blame the Indian workers, who are often subjected to horrendous poverty and terrible working conditions (unnecessarily and often in the name of someone's personal profit), for resorting to the use of the only real power they have. Instead, we should blame the system which has generated this level of antagonism.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:21 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:I wouldn't rush too quickly to judge the workers here. While we don't know the specific facts about what happened, I have a feeling that it followed the standard formulation of labor vs. capital: workers get tired of being slaves and demand rights; capitalist, holding all the economic bargaining power, refuses; workers, having superior strength in numbers retaliate with force. It's tragic, but we can't blame the Indian workers, who are often subjected to horrendous poverty and terrible working conditions (unnecessarily and often in the name of someone's personal profit), for resorting to the use of the only real power they have. Instead, we should blame the system which has generated this level of antagonism.
That's an insanely fucking evil position to take.

This isn't the case of a man shooting another man to steal bread to feed his family. This is the case of a man shooting another man because he charges too much for bread. Do you understand this distinction?

Those who face poverty can have my sympathy, but no amount of sympathy in the world will serve as a justification for murdering another man in frustration and anger. What value did the murderers gain from this act? Will it help them feed their families? Will it help solve their problem? Will it in any way address their poverty?

I mean, seriously? Are we going to have this discussion? The one where we explain to you why killing the man who has oppressed you is not justifiable?
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Thesh » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:21 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:I wouldn't rush too quickly to judge the workers here. While we don't know the specific facts about what happened, I have a feeling that it followed the standard formulation of labor vs. capital: workers get tired of being slaves and demand rights; capitalist, holding all the economic bargaining power, refuses; workers, having superior strength in numbers retaliate with force. It's tragic, but we can't blame the Indian workers, who are often subjected to horrendous poverty and terrible working conditions (unnecessarily and often in the name of someone's personal profit), for resorting to the use of the only real power they have. Instead, we should blame the system which has generated this level of antagonism.


I think it's pretty clear that we should blame the workers. Very few actions justify being burnt alive. Understand? Maybe. Learn? Sure. Let the workers off for burning someone alive? Fuck no.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:34 am UTC

Thesh wrote:I think it's pretty clear that we should blame the workers. Very few actions justify being burnt alive. Understand? Maybe. Learn? Sure. Let the workers off for burning someone alive? Fuck no.
Yeah, I cannot even begin to understand just how fucked up your moral schema must be to make you think for one instant that you are justified in lighting someone on fire on account of them having severely wronged you. No, morality does not function on a system of vengeance. Killing people is not justifiable if there is nothing to gain from the murder beyond my personal satisfaction. And killing people for my personal satisfaction in a particularly agonizing way (being burned alive is fucking horrible) is double-plus bad.

No, no, fucking no. JonScholar, please tell me you're just pulling some sort of Andy Kaufman move, here.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Thesh » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:50 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Yeah, I cannot even begin to understand just how fucked up your moral schema must be to make you think for one instant that you are justified in lighting someone on fire on account of them having severely wronged you. No, morality does not function on a system of vengeance. Killing people is not justifiable if there is nothing to gain from the murder beyond my personal satisfaction. And killing people for my personal satisfaction in a particularly agonizing way (being burned alive is fucking horrible) is double-plus bad.


Punishment is a part of justice. Now, I have no opposition to completely abolishing the death penalty, but if someone has done something sufficiently horrible (e.g Josef Mengele), then I would also have no opposition to a horrible death, but I wouldn't necessarily advocate it (I wouldn't oppose life imprisonment or a quick death either). However, you would have to wrong a very large number of people, in a very horrible manner, and without remorse, for me to condone that kind of punishment.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby JonScholar » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:57 am UTC

First of all, I didn't say it was right. It might have been right, it depends on the circumstances, and I don't know the specific circumstances of what happened so it's impossible to judge. What I said is that if it fits the common mold of the struggle between labor and capital, that I wouldn't blame the workers for their actions. I wouldn't blame them any more than I would blame Ecuadorean peasants dragging Texaco executives through the streets and hanging them for poisoning thousands of people. It's just how the world works. People tend to get angry with you when you put them under your boot. You haven't lived under someone's boot your entire life, so you get to call their retaliation evil because it's never a decision you'll have to make. Convenient.

Secondly, oppressing not oppressed. The factory owner lays off his workers, and finds new slaves to work for him despite terrible working conditions and pay. The regime of oppression continues. The workers who were laid off are left with their families to rot on the streets from starvation and disease. Now does killing the factory owner benefit the workers who were laid off? I don't know. However, things don't change if those responsible for terrible crimes never see punishment. Now that the old boss has been made an example of, the new boss is going to have to think seriously before he decides to screw over his workers again. As will other factory owners who hear about this kind of retaliation.

We can learn something about this from our own history. The United States has an incredibly violent labor history. Hundreds of workers were killed in the late 1800s, early 1900s, by the police and military. Yes, sometimes factory owners were made example of. Hell, by the mid 1930s the country was practically falling apart, and on the brink of a violent revolution. Is that pretty? No, but that's how labor rights were finally established in the United States. You're able to sit at your ivory perch with extra cash and free time, and criticize people whose suffering you don't understand and never will understand, because tens of thousands of people in early industrial America were willing to get violent to make a point, to fight for your right to do so. Again, convenient.

Thesh wrote: Let the workers off for burning someone alive? Fuck no.


We're not in disagreement. I don't believe they should be "let off", and I'm not arguing for the police to let these people go. Actions like this are very serious, it's important that they carry a risk so that such incredible violence isn't used capriciously. I'm saying that we can't blame the workers for doing what any person who's been severely wronged would do: seek justice.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:11 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:First of all, I didn't say it was right. It might have been right, it depends on the circumstances, and I don't know the specific circumstances of what happened so it's impossible to judge.
It is not right to set a man's car on fire, trap him inside of it, and watch him burn. This is why I am calling your position insanely fucking evil: Because it allows that this might be right.
JonScholar wrote:We can learn something about this from our own history. The United States has an incredibly violent labor history. Hundreds of workers were killed in the late 1800s, early 1900s, by the police and military. Yes, sometimes factory owners were made example of. Hell, by the mid 1930s the country was practically falling apart, and on the brink of a violent revolution. Is that pretty? No, but that's how labor rights were finally established in the United States. You're able to sit at your ivory perch with extra cash and free time, and criticize people whose suffering you don't understand and never will understand, because tens of thousands of people in early industrial America were willing to get violent to make a point, to fight for your right to do so. Again, convenient.
No. You will not disrespect the efforts of those who fought tooth and nail to give laborers in America their rights through political activism and other means by placing the credit for their accomplishments on the shoulders of those who committed vicious, vindictive acts of 'mob justice' to satisfy their own need for reciprocity. Fuck you and fuck your ignorance of history.

I am aware that every activist effort in history is a matter of passion, and all matters of passion are married to violence; I do not reject violence as a tool for justice, but I reject the notion that inflicting torture and violence on my fellow man to satisfy my own need for satisfaction can ever be justified. Your position is nothing short of a call for lynch mobs against those who have wronged you. I don't care what they did; until you can demonstrate to me how brutally torturing and killing this man could bring about any positive ends that outweigh the heinous crime itself, you need to shut the hell up.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Diadem » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:25 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
JonScholar wrote:First of all, I didn't say it was right. It might have been right, it depends on the circumstances, and I don't know the specific circumstances of what happened so it's impossible to judge.
It is not right to set a man's car on fire, trap him inside of it, and watch him burn. This is why I am calling your position insanely fucking evil: Because it allows that this might be right.

Of course it might be right. If I caught Kadaffi in a car, I wouldn't hestitate a second to set it on fire, trap him inside it, and watch him burn. I would be taking pictures too.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Hawknc » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:26 am UTC

And yet, that's not right either. I personally doubt it'd be right even if you were a Libyan citizen who had lived under his rule...but since you're not, I'm absofuckinglutely sure it isn't.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:29 am UTC

Yeah, pretty much. If you're confronted with a man who's existence perpetuates nothing but evil, it might be right to shoot him. It would never be right to torture him first.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Diadem » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:29 am UTC

Hawknc wrote:And yet, that's not right either. I personally doubt it'd be right even if you were a Libyan citizen who had lived under his rule...but since you're not, I'm absofuckinglutely sure it isn't.

Ok, why? Are you saying there are absolutely no circumstances in which vigilantism is right?
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:31 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Ok, why? Are you saying there are absolutely no circumstances in which vigilantism is right?
There are absolutely no circumstances where watching a man burn to death is right. Again: I don't reject violence as a tool for justice, but I do not confuse justice with revenge.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Hawknc » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:33 am UTC

It's a very long bow to draw that because any circumstances in which vigilantism is justified exist, that it's relevant to what happened here. So I'm not sure why that's relevant. Why is this vigilantism justified? Why was it right for this guy to be burned alive, rather than put through due process? For that matter, what crime had he even committed?

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby JonScholar » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:33 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:You will not disrespect the efforts of those who fought tooth and nail to give laborers in America their rights through political activism and other means by placing the credit for their accomplishments on the shoulders of those who committed vicious, vindictive acts of 'mob justice' to satisfy their own need for reciprocity. Fuck you and fuck your ignorance of history.

Was everyone violent during that period? No. But lets face it, if people hadn't been willing to actually fight back during that period, nothing would have changed. Non violent protests, strikes, meant nothing. The government would simply roll in the national guard, or a capitalist would call in a private police for or a bribed public police force and have them beat or gun down the workers until they were broken and back at work. The unions didn't start as violent institutions, but that's what they became. And rightfully so, they were facing off with an even more brutal and violent foe, it was a matter of survival. Yes, there have been non-violent movements in this country that have been partially successful, but they've always been balanced by violent counterparts. With few exceptions this has been the case, and you are dangerously naive to claim that the non-violent movements are solely responsible for the progress that has been made.

But I'm not interested in carrying this argument any further, so if you think that's evil good for you. You have that privilege.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Diadem » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:33 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Yeah, pretty much. If you're confronted with a man who's existence perpetuates nothing but evil, it might be right to shoot him. It would never be right to torture him first.

The Great Hippo wrote:
Diadem wrote:Ok, why? Are you saying there are absolutely no circumstances in which vigilantism is right?
There are absolutely no circumstances where watching a man burn to death is right. Again: I don't reject violence as a tool for justice, but I do not confuse justice with revenge.

I agree that torture is not justified. But I am not under any obligation to make his dead pleasant, or painless. There is nothing wrong with making efficiency the primary motive. In the above scenario, I might not have a gun, or a knife, and taking him out of the car to try to strangle him might be dangerous to me, and might give him an opportunity to escape (besides, strangulation is not exactly pleasant either).
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:41 am UTC

You're still killing someone for no other purpose then for your own enjoyment of watching them die. This isn't vigilantism, that's when you kill a criminal on the lam to prevent further crimes.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:43 am UTC

JonScholar wrote:Was everyone violent during that period? No. But lets face, if people hadn't been willing to actually fight back during that period, nothing would have changed. Non violent protests, strikes, meant nothing. The government would simply roll in the national guard, or a capitalist would call in a private police for or a bribed public police force and have them beat or gun down the workers until they were broken and back at work. The unions didn't start as violent institutions, but that's what they became. And rightfully so, they were facing off with an even more brutal and violent foe, it was a matter of survival. Yes, there have been non-violent movements in this country that have been partially successful, but they've always been balanced by violent counterparts. With few exceptions this has been the case, and you are dangerously naive to claim that the non-violent movements are solely responsible for the progress that has been made.
That was never my claim. Did you even bother to read my post? The part where I said I don't reject violence as an instrument of justice? I could support the fuck out of violent revolutions when lives are on the line. I don't support mobs lighting people on fire for their own personal satisfaction. That's the distinction, and that's why your position is, and continues to remain, insanely fucking evil.
JonScholar wrote:But I'm not interested in carrying this argument any further, so if you think that's evil good for you. You have that privilege.
This is the first time I can ever recall being told that equating wild lynch mobs with evil is a 'privilege'.
Diadem wrote:I agree that torture is not justified. But I am not under any obligation to make his dead pleasant, or painless. There is nothing wrong with making efficiency the primary motive. In the above scenario, I might not have a gun, or a knife, and taking him out of the car to try to strangle him might be dangerous to me, and might give him an opportunity to escape (besides, strangulation is not exactly pleasant either).
That might be true, depending. I don't think it's relevant to what happened here.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:45 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby dedalus » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:45 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Yeah, pretty much. If you're confronted with a man who's existence perpetuates nothing but evil, it might be right to shoot him. It would never be right to torture him first.

The Great Hippo wrote:
Diadem wrote:Ok, why? Are you saying there are absolutely no circumstances in which vigilantism is right?
There are absolutely no circumstances where watching a man burn to death is right. Again: I don't reject violence as a tool for justice, but I do not confuse justice with revenge.

I agree that torture is not justified. But I am not under any obligation to make his dead pleasant, or painless. There is nothing wrong with making efficiency the primary motive. In the above scenario, I might not have a gun, or a knife, and taking him out of the car to try to strangle him might be dangerous to me, and might give him an opportunity to escape (besides, strangulation is not exactly pleasant either).

I'm pretty sure that in any situation where you're able to restrain a man inside his own car whilst you set fire to it, you have enough power to kill him in a less disgusting way without threatening yourself with harm.
doogly wrote:Oh yea, obviously they wouldn't know Griffiths from Sakurai if I were throwing them at them.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Diadem » Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:50 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:That might be true, depending. I don't think it's relevant to what happened here.

Perhaps not. But I was merely responding to your statement that letting someone burn to death is always wrong.

I agree it's somewhat of an off-topic tangent. But an interesting one. I think it's an important point that in vigilantism, unlike in normal justice, efficiency is an important motive. For example for a vigilante, crimes that ordinarily would be punished with something less severe, might nevertheless warant assassination. Simply because punishing the person some other way would be dangerous, impractical and inefficient.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Thesh » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:08 am UTC

Even if you justify violent revolutions in some cases, they are not always justified. Let's say conditions for workers are deplorable and people are underpaid (I really don't know for sure). India is a democracy; before engaging in a violent revolution, try campaigning for minimum wages and workers rights and taking to the streets in peaceful demonstrations. Also, look to form unions to protect the workers rights. If it fails, it most likely failed because there wasn't enough popular support, meaning that you are the minority. If you are the minority, then a violent overthrow of the government is not justified. If the failure is due to corruption, you have majority support, and non-violent protest is not working, then a violent overthrow may be necessary.

However, this isn't a revolution. This was vigilantism. They aren't trying to get change, they are just looking for revenge.
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Jahoclave » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:20 am UTC

Gelsamel wrote:My signature.

Yeah, given what his ultimate goal was and who he was supporting in that aim, I'm not so sure I care too much for the Thomas Paine or many of the leaders of the Revolution for that matter. Though, Jefferson had a nice touch in sticking up for Shay. Now there's a respectable figure. Those are the people who should really be considered the heroes of the revolution. The poor who actually did most of the fighting and then got screwed over after the fact while the "founding fathers" made out like bandits.

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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Gelsamel » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:37 am UTC

Doesn't matter who said it. I just didn't want to write the exact same thing that is said in my signature.
"Give up here?"
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"Is it all pointless?"
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Re: Ex-worker mob burn executive to death in vehicle

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:49 am UTC

You don't like Paine? He was one of the first to support the abolishment of slavery in America and supported a pension/guaranteed income for the poor coming from a progressive tax system on account of how he felt property ownership & inheritance couldn't be considered a proper right of man; I don't really see where your criticism is coming from.


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