xkcd

by **pepsi** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:31 pm UTC

I've seen this debate on 4chan and I'm wondering what you guys think.

Who would win in a fight presuming both are at their peaks? Superman's peak was in the 1940s when kryptonite didn't exist and he could destroy entire galaxies by sneezing. Goku's peak was in the 1990s when he could channel all the energy in the universe. They both have virtually infinite strength, speed, and stamina.

I'm going to say Superman would win. Beyond his superior plot armor Superman is simply smarter than Goku and has a lot more tools at his disposal. Superman would find Goku's weakness (the inability to breathe in space, lack of intelligence, reliance on others, etc.) and use that to defeat him. Superman had no weakness at his peak so there's really no way for Goku to win.

Moved from RW for having nothing to do with computers -phlip

by **Vash** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

Superman would have no time to find a weakness. Goku has faced more intelligent opponents before. Even assuming equal power, Goku has immensely superior technique.

Do not underestimate Goku's plot armor. How many times has he come back from near death and death? Since the series virtually always has a team of fighters, can you also simply take Goku alone?

by **Amnesiasoft** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:39 pm UTC

Vash wrote:can you also simply take Goku alone?

Of course, because it always comes down to relying on Goku to show off and be the most powerful guy because everyone else has failed.

by **Joeldi** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:47 am UTC

I got an icy response the last time I tried to make a thread like this. The truth is, Batman would win.

by **Virtual_Aardvark** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:55 am UTC

I call heat death of the universe as winner.

by **SecondTalon** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:06 pm UTC

Joeldi wrote:I got an icy response the last time I tried to make a thread like this. The truth is, Batman would win.

Lies.

Lies lies lies.

Batman doesn't always win.

The real question is - how fast is Goku? Superman at peak ridiculous powers was faster than (non-freaking out) The Flash. The Flash (when not freaking out) ran at sublight speeds, sure, but still damn near Lightspeed. So we can assume that Superman can move at just a (relative) bit under Lightspeed. What's Goku's maximum displayed speed and reaction time?

by **ArgonV** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:25 pm UTC

SexyTalon wrote: What's Goku's maximum displayed speed and reaction time?

His maximum speed was instant teleportation. That trumps light speed, right?

by **broken_escalator** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:27 pm UTC

The only problem is that Goku comes back from the dead, and uses his balls of the dragon as a MacGuffin. So yeah, I think Supes would win the fight, but Goku would keep coming back and raising his power level until no one cared anymore. That's what happened to the anime, right?

Those batman vs superman comics were great.

by **SecondTalon** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

ArgonV wrote:
SexyTalon wrote: What's Goku's maximum displayed speed and reaction time?

His maximum speed was instant teleportation. That trumps light speed, right?

The actual teleportation, yes. The process of teleporting, perhaps not. What was the warmup sequence/cooldown sequence from teleportations? In other words, how quickly could he chose to teleport and actually do so, and how quickly does he acclimate to his new surroundings upon arrival?

When not teleporting, how quickly can Goku react to new stimuli?

by **Joeldi** » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:14 am UTC

Superman would never push the earth into the sun >.> Your argument is invalid.
Over the years, Superman has acquired way too much plot armour and ridiculously overpowered powers, so I'd have to concede he would win. And that is the main reason I haven't read any where near as much Superman as I have Bats. I just don't care about the most overpowered being in the universe.

by **big boss** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

yea superman needs a nerf, hes ruining the game...

by **Mahou** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 pm UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:Of course, because it always comes down to relying on Goku to show off and be the most powerful guy because everyone else has failed.

Except for one time when it was Gohan.

The teleportation takes about 2 seconds, but during that time he's phased into nothing but some blurry lines that apparently can't be hit, so whatever.

Also, it seems that Superman still thinks at normal speed, since he always needs to slow down before he can do anything. Then again, he could just spin the Earth backwards to before Goku was an adult and super-eat his heart out or something.

by **Aikanaro** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:27 am UTC

Regarding Superman vs. Batman:

Tower of Babel.

That is all.

Regarding Superman vs. Goku, are we going by a theoretical, common-sense Superman, or what-we-get-in-media Superman? Superman-in-media is generally a tactical idiot (hence, why all those Bats-vs-Supes arguments fall flat), but Supes-in-theory CAN react incredibly quickly, think at super speed, etc., etc.. It just never seems to OCCUR to him (kinda like how he doesn't just blast Metallo from low orbit with a nice burst of heat vision, or just use his speed against Darkseid, or just throw Doomsday into the sun the second the fight starts.)

by **SecondTalon** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:08 pm UTC

Mahou wrote:Also, it seems that Superman still thinks at normal speed, since he always needs to slow down before he can do anything. Then again, he could just spin the Earth backwards to before Goku was an adult and super-eat his heart out or something.

In that case : Impulse > All

by **mosc** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:34 pm UTC

Superman is hard to describe in absolute terms since he's been written about too many times. In some sense, he has no restrictions whatsoever. Red Mage liked to call him Jesus and his power was whatever was necessary at the time. As such, he can't be beaten period. End of story. If you take the perspective of superman being somewhat limited in scope to the powers he demonstrates in more recent writings, even without kryptonite, he is somewhat limited compared to the over the top powers in the Dragonball world. "Instant Telelportation" is one such example, where superman seems to be limited to sub-light speeds. In energy output, superman has never been depicted of shooting something AT RANGE with anywhere near the firepower. Supes has pushed and punched things at force levels which are equally as astronomical I would point out (say, throwing an ISLAND into space, for example). However, supes seems to accelerate at more reasonable levels. His power is more based on the strength of the force he can excerpt, goku is more about the spiritual energy (pressure if you prefer) he can excerpt. Spiritual energy would seem less limited to the bounds of the mortal world.

By DBZ power levels, Goku could destroy the sun at a whim. Since that's ultimately the source of supe's strength, I'm giving this one to Goku, or Jesus. Mattering on your definition of Supes.

by **cephalopod9** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:34 am UTC

I think

mosc wrote:Superman is hard to describe in absolute terms since he's been written about too many times. In some sense, he has no restrictions whatsoever. Red Mage liked to call him Jesus and his power was whatever was necessary at the time

I think that's why the OP suggested sticking to 1940's SuperMan, but that's fairly arbitrary and even then the scope and magnitude of his abilities was fairly arbitrary.
Speaking from general canon:
Superman can shoot lasers from his eyes, has reversed time (without a magical artifact), and is very nearly invulnerable.
Goku can punch really really hard, gradual takes damage and is worn down, and spends around 3 minutes* powering up and transforming for every 15 seconds of attack.

Laser. Eye. Beams.
*show time, in universe time is probably several times that.

by **Kag** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:58 am UTC

Superman can breathe in space.

by **Amnesiasoft** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:56 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Superman can breathe in space.

Yeah? So? Batman can too.

by **Kag** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:16 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:Yeah? So? Batman can too.

Well, for one, Goku can't.

by **SecondTalon** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:15 pm UTC

Martian Manhunter vs Goku. Telepathy makes Goku think he won, lives out rest of existence in fantasy world. Manhunter wins.

Plastic Man vs Goku. Does Goku use bladed instruments ever? If not, Plastic man wins by default when Goku finally gets fed up with the constant comedic jabbering and goes home.

Spiderman vs Goku. See Plastic Man.

Darkseid vs Goku. What's stronger, Anti-life equation or Dragonballs?

Squirrel Girl vs. Goku. If the answer isn't completely obvious, lurk more.

Goku vs Goku. Superman wins.

by **zmatt** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:29 pm UTC

spirit bomb. boom.

by **Vash** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:43 pm UTC

It would be more interesting to pit Goku against every version of Superman. Then, maybe we could create an aggregate, and whoever wins the most wins. Anyone with some serious comic knowledge?

It could also help to list out the abilities of Goku. List out the abilities of each in different incarnations, even.

I'll start with Goku (incomplete):
1. Kaio-ken.
2. Kamehameha.
3. Other energy balls, beams, etc.
4. Powering up.
5. SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, and maybe you can count SSJ4 (though why you would ever want to remember that is beyond me).
6. Instant transmission (teleportation).
7. Massive power gains after coming close to death (again, Goku fighting with his friends actually does factor in for this reason).
8. Dragonball resurrection and other wishes.
9. Fusion.
10. RAGE.
11. Spirit bomb.

Perhaps some relevant flaws would also be in order:
1. Honorable fighting style. How many times do Superman do terrible things?
2. Energy runs out.
3. Power time.
4. Has to almost die and regenerate for some of his massive power gains.
5. RAGE.
6. Spirit bomb forming time (though, with distraction it is not that bad).

Number 1 in the weaknesses brings up another issue, actually. There needs to be a reason for their fight. If you think about it, they are both crusaders for good. At least, Goku defends the Earth, his friends, and tries to defend Namek. Some kind of setup is necessary and may effect the battle i.e. Goku or Superman goes evil, loses control of their mind (or is controlled by someone else), Goku fuses with Broly, Superman decides the Earth needs to be destroyed in order to save humanity, or something else.

We also can't get too terribly silly (lol, except for this whole exercise to begin with). Goku has been shot with laser eyes before.

Could also set up fights pitting ability against ability.

by **Endless Mike** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:52 pm UTC

I feel like we have to use Superman being published at the same time as Goku. A quick Wiki search doesn't give me an exact time when the Dragonball manga became what was turned into Dragonball Z for TV, just that the former was the first 16 of the 42 volumes of the manga that ran from December 1984 to no later than August 1995. As such, some assumptions lead use to DBZ starting in August 1987, meaning that Crisis had occurred, so we should really be comparing post-Crisis 1, pre-Zero Hour (although we could go till post-Zero Hour, but it makes no difference in his powerset) Superman (god I hate DC continuity). With this in mind, Goku wins without really trying. Superman's actual peak was in the 60s and 70s when Silver Age goofiness reigned supreme and he literally threw around ice moons to solve problems. He was fast and strong in the 40s, but nowhere near where he would be in the Silver Age.

by **Aikanaro** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

One other things occurs to me: Do the dragonballs and/or Goku's abilities count as magic? If so, Superman loses hands down.

by **Endless Mike** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:33 pm UTC

They're all chi-based or genetic abilities or techniques with the exception of dragon ball wishes (which he can only do one of in a battle, if that).

by **mosc** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:12 pm UTC

I think most people in this thread have limited exposure to DBZ. As it dragged on, especially into the later GT series, his powers became more and more ridiculous. Could he breathe in space? No, but he could travel through space across great distances easily simply by holding his breath for a very very long time and teleporting faster than the speed of light. So basically, yes+. And did supes ever really breathe in space? I think he was holding his breath too.

Beyond that, he could kick out enough energy to blow up a star in a beam (not some slow gathering spirit bomb, that was much earlier on in his development).

Either you're talking about the Superman from the era where his superpowers included "Super Knitting" (not a joke) and whatever else the writer could think up and was completely impervious to anything, the answer is Goku.

by **Vash** » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:29 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I think most people in this thread have limited ... breath too.

I did not watch GT, lol. I thought it was terrible.

Beyond that, he could kick out enough energy to blow up a star in a beam (not some slow gathering spirit bomb, that was much earlier on in his development).

That's a good point. I forgot to mention that.

I agree that Goku is ridiculously powerful. The energy beams are a good point.

They are perhaps an especially good point. Doesn't Superman get his ass kicked just by Darkseid's omega beams? (I think I saw that in a Justice League cartoon. Not sure of the comic context)

Further, "He also, despite his great size, possesses great speed, agility, and reflexes as he has been able to startle Superman with his speed[10] and it has been stated he can react in microseconds." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkseid) Goku is faster than microseconds.

by **Endless Mike** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

DCAU Superman was depowered pretty heavily for his own show even compared to modern Superman (never mind Silver Age), but got a bit of a power bump for JLA (but not too much since between him and Martian Manhunter, the rest of the team was basically redundant). That said, I'm no really sure how he reacts to Omega Beams.

by **SecondTalon** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:51 am UTC

Having just looked up a couple incidents of people getting vaporized and lesser powered people surviving a hit, the Omega Beams fire with the power of Plot.

by **Aikanaro** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:02 am UTC

The DC wiki specifically mentions that Darkseid isn't as fast as "speedsters like the Flash or Superman," though technically, Superman isn't a true Speedster, since he doesn't tap into the Speed Force.

Also, if memory serves, the last episode of the animated series (Superman, not JLA), had him fight Darkseid, and win the fight by grabbing hold over Darkseid's eyes right when the omega beams were powering up. Big explosion, both got hurt bad, but only Supes was left standing.

Again, this is an example of why a theoretical Supes is far scarier than the ACTUAL one we get in media. Picture, if you will, Superman fighting like, say, Spider-Man.....wait for the attack, dodge, counter at lightning speed. Or, hell, if he'd fight like Flash. In either case, you'd expect him to take out Darkseid hands-down.

Spoiler to cover my own secret shame:

Spoiler:

by **Endless Mike** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:41 pm UTC

If you want to read "theoretical" Superman (all Superman is theoretical), pick up any of the multitude of comics with the description "What if Superman was/became evil?" Irredeemable is running right now, though I haven't read much of it.

by **SecondTalon** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:43 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:The DC wiki specifically mentions that Darkseid isn't as fast as "speedsters like the Flash or Superman," though technically, Superman isn't a true Speedster, since he doesn't tap into the Speed Force.

He doesn't have to be. Omega Beams are written like D&D Magic Missiles, if Magic Missiles could be fired at shit you can't see and hit like nukes - Omega Beams hit what Darkseid wanted them to hit. They turn corners, stop and ask for directions, travel great distances, I think even travel through parallel dimensions*.

They just seem a little inconsistent in their hitting strength, and are swiss army knives (They kill! They teleport! They swap minds! They slice! They dice! And all for a low low payment not of $199.99, not $149.99, not $99.99, not even $49.99 NO! All yours for two easy payments of $19.99! Call now!)

*SCI-FI Dimensions, naturally.

by **mosc** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:56 pm UTC

Can anybody name another example from any medium which has portrayed as much personal power as Goku? I was thinking about it and I can't come up with one (obviously ignoring DBZ villains with similar stuff). Superman is the only thing close, and he doesn't have near the output. Goku went beyond physical power, he even went beyond physics. Faster than light travel, resurrection, energy output far in excess of his mass's equivalence (e=mc^2), etc.

by **broken_escalator** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:05 pm UTC

I haven't kept up with bleach since they started to turn into DBZ 2: now with swords, but I'm sure there's at least one overpowered character in it.

by **Zohar** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:34 pm UTC

Nah. At least according to the anime, no one is close to that strong.

God from the bible was pretty strong.

by **podbaydoor** » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:36 pm UTC

I think you'd have to get into the realm of deities, yeah. Q or the like.

by **Joeldi** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:51 am UTC

This thread is now Q vs. The Elimist vs. Discworld Azrael.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:06 am UTC

mosc wrote:Can anybody name another example from any medium which has portrayed as much personal power as Goku? I was thinking about it and I can't come up with one (obviously ignoring DBZ villains with similar stuff). Superman is the only thing close, and he doesn't have near the output. Goku went beyond physical power, he even went beyond physics. Faster than light travel, resurrection, energy output far in excess of his mass's equivalence (e=mc^2), etc.

Parallax from Zero Hour did destroy the universe then create a near-exact duplicate, and there's Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet instantly killing half the sentient life in the universe because he could....so there's that.

by **Endless Mike** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

Hey, it wasn't because he could, it was to impress Death.

Phoenix was pretty damned powerful. She went and ate a sun because she was hungry.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:06 pm UTC

Yeah, but that starts to get into odd backstory, which is why I just handwaved it as "Because he could"

There's Galactus, who survived the Big Crunch death of the last universe. Of course, we could mention the various times God has been played by various people (George Burns, Morgan Freeman, Alanis Morissette, etc) in various works of fiction but that may be cheating a bit.

And then there's Deus Ex Machina Godmode Mary Sue Eliminster.

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