Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:43 pm UTC

I actually won a TvZ game. Yay me!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:54 pm UTC

I've been practicing against computers, trying to get the feel for micro and everything. I've decided to try playing terran, but I kinda suck at micro because I'm too lazy to do it. So far my games seem to be put up a small group of marines + bunkers for initial defense. Then get hellions or reapers to harass their workers while I build up a few tanks. I try to make my army composed of MMM and tanks, maybe throw some thor in there... but I almost always end up just massing BC mixed with banshees.

Is protoss less micro oriented? I think I could play them, but I've always had trouble playing zerg. I get how the queen works and all that, but I never know what units to create other than lots of roaches.
Mutas and Infestors are fun.

You have to be very aggressive with Mutas - it's hard to be too aggressive with them, but you do have to know the difference between being aggressive and reckless. Infestors require good micro and visual range estimation - you want the Infestors in place when you cast fungal, if they have to run to be in range, then the target may have moved. Likewise, you want to cast it before the opposing troops get in range to hurt your Infestors.

But worry about macro first. If you can keep new expansions rolling and maintain production and maintain a good army composition compared to your opponent, then until you get pretty high on the ladder you can just throw armies at your opponents until they crumble. It takes 1 CC 8 minutes and 30 seconds to fully saturate a mineral and gas area - you should never go any longer than that for any race without expanding unless you're totally pinned, in which case get unpinned before you're out-macroed and stomped.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

So far I'm pretty good about getting multiple expansions. I think the only big mistake is that I always put 2 workers to a gas; I didn't know it was 3. :oops: That and I don't really know what I want to make for my army, so sometimes I can get 800 minerals and then I either expand or sink it into just a various amount of units.

I also don't scout against the computers, because I don't know what counters what, and I don't think they're going to cheese me.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:28 pm UTC

Scout anyway. Make a note of what you're countering with what and how well it went. There are no useless units (though it very hard to justify making reapers late game.)
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:35 pm UTC

broken_escalator wrote:I also don't scout against the computers, because I don't know what counters what, and I don't think they're going to cheese me.
Yeah, at least make a token effort at scouting. Get into the habit of doing it
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby broken_escalator » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:58 pm UTC

I usually make the reapers or hellions early, if its convenient to harass. The reapers mostly if its an easy game because I think they look cool. I've been trying to do banshee harassment more, but I prefer hellion or reaper because then I'm less worried about losing the units.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:01 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Long post about a 100 supply army against 150 supply army.

Given that Player A has twice the income, there is this other thing called upgrades. if Player B maxes off 50 workers, he will struggle to have more than 1/1 on his key workers. With 100 workers at the same time, Player A should be at least at 2/2, probably with 3/3 on the way by the time they are both maxing.

When you also consider that in a lot of battles (at lower leagues especially) not every unit is going to be attacking/firing at once, having a smaller army with better tech and upgrades and the ability to remax faster is probably going to be stronger in the long run.

WarDaft wrote:Scout anyway. Make a note of what you're countering with what and how well it went. There are no useless units (though it very hard to justify making reapers late game.)

Did you watch the TSL match between QXC and Genius? Some interesting late game reapers there.

Reapers are an amazing scouting unit. I love to make one early in TvP (since I almost always get a fast tech lab for marauders with concussive anyway) for scouting. If they go 4-gate and you scout it, just sneak 1-2 reapers into their mineral line while they are hitting your ramp and punish them hard.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:03 am UTC

If you're Terran and worried about army size vs economy, then when you max dump minerals into mass orbital commands and sacrifice 4 SCVs for every mule you get. They will pay for themselves very fast and you can have up to a 200 supply army as mules don't cost supply. See Boxer vs Hyperdub GSL January, he had so much income he couldn't actually spend it.

Having an extra in-base orbital command early on is something I've seen from a few pros recently, notably TOP in the GSTL and Strelok in the TSL.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:17 am UTC

How do you attack a turtled up Terran? I just had a game where the guy tried to go two-base Thor/tank. When he left his base I had no trouble destroying his army, but I didn't feel confident actually going into his base. All the tanks well positioned on the high ground would make things very hard on my ground units and Thors completely ruled out mutas. I had him completely contained and was just letting him starve and I'm confident that even if he'd been able to push out with a 200/200 Thor army I could surround and destroy with Roach/Hydra/Ling (also 200/200 almost fully upgraded to his 1-0 with about 8 hatcheries full of larvae to immediately replace any losses) but I feel like that shouldn't be my only option. Should I go broodlords? Massive Overlord drop? Just trust my larger force and A-move up the ramp?

For the record the game ended with him claiming that his 200/200 Thor army would obliterate whatever I had then lagging out.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:37 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:How do you attack a turtled up Terran? I just had a game where the guy tried to go two-base Thor/tank. When he left his base I had no trouble destroying his army, but I didn't feel confident actually going into his base. All the tanks well positioned on the high ground would make things very hard on my ground units and Thors completely ruled out mutas. I had him completely contained and was just letting him starve and I'm confident that even if he'd been able to push out with a 200/200 Thor army I could surround and destroy with Roach/Hydra/Ling (also 200/200 almost fully upgraded to his 1-0 with about 8 hatcheries full of larvae to immediately replace any losses) but I feel like that shouldn't be my only option. Should I go broodlords? Massive Overlord drop? Just trust my larger force and A-move up the ramp?

For the record the game ended with him claiming that his 200/200 Thor army would obliterate whatever I had then lagging out.

Definitely Brood Lorrds, imo. You should completely roll him if you attack when he's unsieged. Broodlords force that because the splash from tanks hitting stuff is just stupid. Also taking lots of expansions that are really spread out is good too. A 200/200 mech army -is- hard to destroy, so give yourself plenty of time to remax after you attack it once just in case.

Game_boy wrote:Having an extra in-base orbital command early on is something I've seen from a few pros recently, notably TOP in the GSTL and Strelok in the TSL.

I think the only time you do this early is because Terran can build the orbital in-base and float it to the natural when it's safe enough. It's still not a bad investment because of the extra scvs/mules but you mine out your main so fast I don't think it's worth it if you aren't fully intending to expand with it.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Mo0man » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:46 am UTC

Take however many bases he's got +2, then tech to brood lords.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:48 am UTC

And depending on the map, constant overlord drops or nydus worms.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Toeofdoom » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:06 am UTC

To elaborate on "depending on the map" - if there's actually a spot far enough away from his army that he can't react quickly to an attack there, go ahead and drop/nydus there. If all their bases are close together you'll probably be donating units. Broodlords are probably the safer option anyway, if you have time?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:10 am UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:To elaborate on "depending on the map" - if there's actually a spot far enough away from his army that he can't react quickly to an attack there, go ahead and drop/nydus there. If all their bases are close together you'll probably be donating units. Broodlords are probably the safer option anyway, if you have time?

You can always just nydus in the back of his base with no units in it just to split up his army (so he sends some group of units to deal with it) and attack. Same thing with overlords (assuming the opponent knows you have drops, obv).

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:10 am UTC

Either broodlords, or, if he doesn't have detection, infestors.

Terrans are turtling gods anyway.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Game_boy » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:33 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:Having an extra in-base orbital command early on is something I've seen from a few pros recently, notably TOP in the GSTL and Strelok in the TSL.

I think the only time you do this early is because Terran can build the orbital in-base and float it to the natural when it's safe enough. It's still not a bad investment because of the extra scvs/mules but you mine out your main so fast I don't think it's worth it if you aren't fully intending to expand with it.


TOP looked pretty invincible with it. His opponent was winning every engagement but TOP was mining so fast (with no intention of expanding past two bases until very late on) it negated it. It's taking advantage of the fact that 2 base Terran can survive incredibly long against 3-4 base Zerg. Then he floated to the Gold later and still had 3 orbitals to mine THAT out fast.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 am UTC

Game_boy wrote:If you're Terran and worried about army size vs economy, then when you max dump minerals into mass orbital commands and sacrifice 4 SCVs for every mule you get. They will pay for themselves very fast and you can have up to a 200 supply army as mules don't cost supply. See Boxer vs Hyperdub GSL January, he had so much income he couldn't actually spend it.

Having an extra in-base orbital command early on is something I've seen from a few pros recently, notably TOP in the GSTL and Strelok in the TSL.


I'm doing it (in base OC) fairly often in TvT. I don't think it gives that significant of an economy bonus (saw figures ages ago that suggested it didn't really pay off, but hell if I can find them now), but it makes harvester sniping less cost effective (as you can recover your harvester count twice as fast, meaning the gain from killing SCVs basically cooks down to little more than their monetary value, rather than cost+lost income), and you can set up expansions hella fast.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby psion » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:07 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Should I go broodlords? Massive Overlord drop? Just trust my larger force and A-move up the ramp?

Yes, yes, and sometimes. You should mainly focus more on larva management and on getting bases faster, primarily for gas. More larva is more drones is more units; no larva and everything breaks down. There's nothing wrong with incorporating macro hatches if you have trouble with spawn larva.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby SirBryghtside » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:29 pm UTC

OK. Here's the deal.

I've looked at myself as a player. I've looked at my new strategies. And I've looked at my replays.

I've decided that all this time... I've been begging myself to play Zerg.

Any tips?
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby |Erasmus| » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:39 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:
Game_boy wrote:Having an extra in-base orbital command early on is something I've seen from a few pros recently, notably TOP in the GSTL and Strelok in the TSL.

I think the only time you do this early is because Terran can build the orbital in-base and float it to the natural when it's safe enough. It's still not a bad investment because of the extra scvs/mules but you mine out your main so fast I don't think it's worth it if you aren't fully intending to expand with it.


TOP looked pretty invincible with it. His opponent was winning every engagement but TOP was mining so fast (with no intention of expanding past two bases until very late on) it negated it. It's taking advantage of the fact that 2 base Terran can survive incredibly long against 3-4 base Zerg. Then he floated to the Gold later and still had 3 orbitals to mine THAT out fast.

I will have to make a point of going back and watching that game, then. I have seen plenty of Ts use their natural inbase for a bit to just get more workers before it's actually safe to float out, but I haven't seen any pros doing an actual inbase orbital before...

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:47 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:OK. Here's the deal.

I've looked at myself as a player. I've looked at my new strategies. And I've looked at my replays.

I've decided that all this time... I've been begging myself to play Zerg.

Any tips?


From my limited experience:
Don't drone too much.
You can inject larva on the minimap, use control groups.
Roam the map with lings, use them to scout and pick off lightly defended expos.
Hide a few banelings along chokes if you face marines.
Mutas are fucking awesome, but you should rarely face his army directly (unless, say, protoss with no sentries, terran light on marines...).
Infestors own MMM, hard.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:02 pm UTC

If you're below the supply cap, an OC will pay for itself completely in about 5 minutes without making any SCVs at all and you'll have a CC ready as soon as you want to take an expansion. Building SCVs does not actually hasten it much - 135 of the ~300 seconds are just for getting the OC, and the SCV will take another ~90 seconds to pay for itself. If you chain build SCVs, it will actually take more than 5 minutes to break even, because an OC chain building SCVs will consume almost all of the MULE's income, and only the first 5 SCVs will pay for themselves in the 5 minute window.

So any time you can get away with building one, you should. The trick is obviously knowing when you can get away with it, as 5 minutes is a pretty long window in SC2.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby phlip » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:22 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:Any tips?

If you mine without rhythm, it won't attract the Nydus worm.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:37 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:From my limited experience:
Don't drone too much.
You can inject larva on the minimap, use control groups.
Roam the map with lings, use them to scout and pick off lightly defended expos.
Hide a few banelings along chokes if you face marines.
Mutas are fucking awesome, but you should rarely face his army directly (unless, say, protoss with no sentries, terran light on marines...).
Infestors own MMM, hard.


Emphasis on the "Don't drone too much". I played a game yesterday against a toss where my max army and his maxed army clashed and he only lost about 40 supply while I dropped almost 100, despite having muuuuch better upgrades (2,2 ground 2,0 for air while he had 1 attack for ground and none for air) and a great unit composition to counter his stalker, void ray, colossus combo. I was incensed to say the least and was ready to start whining about how imbalanced PvZ is and what not and then I watched the replay and realized that I had somewhere around 110 drones while he had maybe 70 probes so his army was at least 40 supply greater than mine.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:48 pm UTC

If you mine without rhythm, it won't attract the Nydus worm.
If you mine without rhythm, you never learn!

Emphasis on the "Don't drone too much". I played a game yesterday against a toss where my max army and his maxed army clashed and he only lost about 40 supply while I dropped almost 100, despite having muuuuch better upgrades (2,2 ground 2,0 for air while he had 1 attack for ground and none for air) and a great unit composition to counter his stalker, void ray, colossus combo. I was incensed to say the least and was ready to start whining about how imbalanced PvZ is and what not and then I watched the replay and realized that I had somewhere around 110 drones while he had maybe 70 probes so his army was at least 40 supply greater than mine.
This is the exact situation I was talking about in my longer post last page.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:17 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:
Emphasis on the "Don't drone too much". I played a game yesterday against a toss where my max army and his maxed army clashed and he only lost about 40 supply while I dropped almost 100, despite having muuuuch better upgrades (2,2 ground 2,0 for air while he had 1 attack for ground and none for air) and a great unit composition to counter his stalker, void ray, colossus combo. I was incensed to say the least and was ready to start whining about how imbalanced PvZ is and what not and then I watched the replay and realized that I had somewhere around 110 drones while he had maybe 70 probes so his army was at least 40 supply greater than mine.
This is the exact situation I was talking about in my longer post last page.
Now, why would you wait til they are max before moving out? And if you do, why not sacrifice drones for spines? Maybe it's because I am a bad player, but I have trouble seeing why you would max just as late as he would if you have 110 drones. Anyways, I would think "don't drone too much" would not apply to most people, since most people's instinct is to make units.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby You, sir, name? » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:04 pm UTC

SC2 has a really low regard of me now. It's pitting me against bronze players. Fortunately (for me, unfortunately for them), they suck.

I banshee harass a guy. He builds 500 turrets. I drop tanks next to the plateau his main is on, and use them to clear a hole in the turrets, and keep whaling at him with the banshees. He sends in marines to kill the banshees (that are pretty much on top of the tanks). The marines die. So he sends in SCVs to build more turrets, that barely get started the moment the tanks blow them up. So he builds vikings AND LANDS THEM NEXT TO THE TANKS. I don't even
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Garm » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
SirBryghtside wrote:Any tips?

If you mine without rhythm, it won't attract the Nydus worm.


But if you mine with rhythm, you'll never learn.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:14 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:You can inject larva on the minimap, use control groups.

You can what!? How do you do that? That would save me SO MANY CLICKS!
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:31 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:Now, why would you wait til they are max before moving out? And if you do, why not sacrifice drones for spines? Maybe it's because I am a bad player, but I have trouble seeing why you would max just as late as he would if you have 110 drones. Anyways, I would think "don't drone too much" would not apply to most people, since most people's instinct is to make units.


It was a pretty tense game throughout, it wasn't as if I was just sitting on 5 bases and droning. Fact is, is that there was a lot of air harass and earlier pushes coming from the toss that caused me to lose one of my expansions twice and what I didn't realize is that I actually saved almost every drone each time I lost the expansion but I instinctively replaced em without thinking about it immediately after replacing the hatch. I didn't mention before but we ended up having 3 maxed battles (and one where I was out 175 or so) because my resources and larvae were so high but he won each one easily because I didn't realize that my army max was like 40 supply lower than his max.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:You can inject larva on the minimap, use control groups.

You can what!? How do you do that? That would save me SO MANY CLICKS!


Select queens.

CTRL-6.

Later on, press 6, v, shift-click more or less on all your lairs on the minimap.

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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:40 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:You can inject larva on the minimap, use control groups.

You can what!? How do you do that? That would save me SO MANY CLICKS!


If you have your queens selected you can just click the larva inject button then click the hatch on the mini map. You have to be fairly accurate about where you click though so it takes a little practice. I still prefer to jump to each of my hatches to do this unless I'm trying to simultaneously harass or attack my opponent.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby SirBryghtside » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

Well, I got the Solo Terran 100 achievement - I guess it's time to go Zerg...
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:54 pm UTC

Not only can you Inject on the minimap it will actually light your hatches up slightly when you have the Inject cast active so you can distinguish them from other buildings easier.

I believe you can Chrono through the minimap as well, but I don't remember just at the moment.
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

I have trouble understanding the "must get perfect people not in high masters are a waste of organic matter" mentality on TeamLiquid and the official forums.

My play is flawed. Like, about a dozen, giant, gaping, blaring flaws, things I could do better, improve if I strictly trained or simply bothered. Things like larva timing, splitting units into several groups to avoid overkill focus fire, scouting all the time, spending ressources all the time, etc.
And I'm having fun anyway? To these people it seems to be more like work than a game. Why?

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WarDaft
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby WarDaft » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

Sometimes, when you're really good at something, you have to take it quite seriously to really enjoy it. This happens in just about every area that humans are capable of being good at.
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Goldstein
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby Goldstein » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:12 pm UTC

That's why I haven't played more than my first placement game. I won it and everything, but I want to enjoy the game, and hammering out "9Pylon12Gateway14Assimilator16Pylon..." just doesn't grab me.
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TheBanana
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby TheBanana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Sometimes, when you're really good at something, you have to take it quite seriously to really enjoy it. This happens in just about every area that humans are capable of being good at.


Exactly, there are elitists in every facet of life.
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BlackSails
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby BlackSails » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:29 pm UTC

Teamliquid is a pro gaming team, im not sure why you would expect them to treat it like anything but a job. Im sure they have fun too, and they even do silly builds, but its a forum based on a professional team's website.

achan1058
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Re: Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

Postby achan1058 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:42 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:I have trouble understanding the "must get perfect people not in high masters are a waste of organic matter" mentality on TeamLiquid and the official forums.

My play is flawed. Like, about a dozen, giant, gaping, blaring flaws, things I could do better, improve if I strictly trained or simply bothered. Things like larva timing, splitting units into several groups to avoid overkill focus fire, scouting all the time, spending ressources all the time, etc.
And I'm having fun anyway? To these people it seems to be more like work than a game. Why?
I think they are just annoyed at people asking them about how to improve (or worse, claiming imbalance) when those said people have big glaring flaws that they are not willing to fix. While some of the other things may or may not be splitting hairs, spending resources is actually pretty big. I have asked myself before, if I have a dozen or 2 more stalkers, would I have won the battle, and the answer is a definite yes.


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