New Laptop Recommendations

[transient]

I'm going to be purchasing a new high-end laptop soon. I'm going to be doing some research on my own, but was wondering if you had any suggestions. It's going to be used for college (I will be an undergraduate next year) as a C.S. major. I've never really had a laptop (except for a refurbished one from a large business), so I might be making some critical flaws in what I want out of it. I only want one computer.

Here's what I'm currently going to use as my selection criteria:

• 14" - 15" screen (what is important in a laptop screen, e.g., resolution?)
• Excellent keyboard (I plan on programming on it, sometimes using emacs, with the caps lock as a control key). I don't expect to get a full keyboard with a 14" or a 15" screen and don't want to carry around an external one.
• Seamless or near seamless GNU/Linux experience (does ATI support still suck? What about switchable graphics?)
• Plays modern games well (but dual-boxing Crysis 2 @ max settings isn't my thing, but SC2 is)
• As light as possible; I plan on bringing it with me to the library or going outside with it. Are the "oversized" batteries worthwhile, or are they more annoying than their worth?
• Speaker quality is not that important to me. I'll have headphones and I'm not an audiophile, but it would be nice to show a friend some awesome new song out at the park or something.

I'd like to keep it under $2,000, but I can go pretty far over if necessary. (I got a really nice scholarship and this is what I'm splurging on). I'm not against Macs, but I'm not exactly a fan of Apple. If they make the best, then I might pick it (assuming price is not simply absurd). It would be awesome not to pay the Windows tax, as I already have a copy of Windows 7 when I need to run Windows.

I don't need to get the laptop until mid-August. If there is going to be a big hardware refresh / big sales promotions on high-end systems during the summer, I'll wait and buy it then.

I'm pretty technically competent, so I don't need to buy extra ram from the laptop vendor, as I can easily install it myself (same with things like the hdd). Anything else I can do myself that will cut costs? I could overclock, but I question how effective that is with laptops. Also, that's not something I really want to do.

I have a large external HDD (2tb -- gotta love Costco), so getting a SSD could be an option. I don't use very much storage (I have way under 400 gigs of data, which is everything, from the past 7 years).

Thanks for the assistance!

[GeorgeH]

With a $2000 budget, you want a Dell M4600, HP 8560W, or Lenovo W520. Thin and light they are not, but they're still portable.

14" - 15" screen (what is important in a laptop screen, e.g., resolution?)
1920x1080, full stop. If you're programing you can never have too much screen area.

Seamless or near seamless GNU/Linux experience (does ATI support still suck? What about switchable graphics?)
You want Nvidia, but no Optimus.

Are the "oversized" batteries worthwhile, or are they more annoying than their worth?
If you really need the extra juice, yes they're worthwhile.

I'm pretty technically competent, so I don't need to buy extra ram from the laptop vendor, as I can easily install it myself (same with things like the hdd). Anything else I can do myself that will cut costs?
Get the lowest amount of RAM, and upgrade it yourself (if applicable, try to get the "1 stick of 4GB" or similar so you can use what does come with the laptop.)
Get the cheapest HDD available and upgrade it yourself.
Get the slowest quad-core CPU available, then upgrade it yourself when it becomes too slow (Ebay for a faster CPU and resell the one the laptop comes with.) The reason you want the slowest quad core is because often the the dual-core and quad-core motherboards are not the same.

I have a large external HDD (2tb -- gotta love Costco), so getting a SSD could be an option. I don't use very much storage (I have way under 400 gigs of data, which is everything, from the past 7 years).
Get a laptop that supports two HDDs. Use one for a SSD, and the other for a big >=750GB HDD.

[Meem1029]

I would recommend a Sony Vaio of some sort. I currently have the EC which is a 17" so bigger than you are looking for, but I can speak from experience that it has been a great laptop. I have not really had problems with Linux on it (currently running Ubuntu 10.10) and any issues I have had are probably due to my lack of knowledge (I can't remember any issues except for Runes of Magic not working in WINE, which I think is just a problem with the graphics card). Also, I don't know if it is still running but when I got mine they had a promotion so it included photoshop elements and a couple of other Adobe programs for free. Overall, it has been of wonderful quality for me. I've heard great things about the Vaio C series which sounds like what you are looking for. The Z is also good, but more expensive and a smaller screen size. The C series has up to 1600x900 in 14" and 1080 in 15".

[Endless Mike]

Get the slowest quad-core CPU available, then upgrade it yourself when it becomes too slow (Ebay for a faster CPU and resell the one the laptop comes with.) The reason you want the slowest quad core is because often the the dual-core and quad-core motherboards are not the same.

Be careful with this. It's not uncommon for processors to be soldered to the board.

[GeorgeH]

^ Good point. In my experience soldered CPUs are generally restricted to low end, smaller form factors, or "super thin and light" segments (basically anywhere where you have extremely limited CPU options in the first place), so it probably won't be a problem here, but it's a very good thing to check. It'd also be wise to make sure that the CPU isn't artificially gimped (no VT support or similar); I don't think that'll be an issue in the ~$2000 segment, but it'd be foolish not to double check.

[Endless Mike]

I will admit that I've never much looked in that price segment since I have no need for something that would cost that much.

[transient]

Is replacing the processor half way through the life cycle of the laptop a good idea? At that point, wouldn't the monitor hinge, the keyboard, etc, all be starting to wear down?

Is there any reason to not buy the laptop in the next couple of weeks, instead of in the next couple months (excluding waiting for the laptop to be released)?

Additionally, are there any accessories I should make sure I have, other than carrying bag + headphones + mouse (+ perhaps a keyboard for my room)?

[Endless Mike]

Whatdo you the lifecycle? My MacBook is 2.5 years old and I have no issue with any of those. My only problem is that the battery cover doesn't sit quite flush since I dropped it on the corner and it bent the unibody a little.

[transient]

If no one thinks it will be an issue, then it's not an issue. Just raising a potential concern.

I try to be gentle, but I will be in college, so I imagine it's going to get banged up a bit more than, say, in a home / business environment.

I stumbled across a Lenovo ad for the W520 and they mentioned "surpassing" military grade certifications. Is this just marketing bs or actually worth paying attention to?

[GeorgeH]

The point of getting one of the three workstation laptops is that they won't wear out; performance aside, they're ~5 year or more laptops.

The slowest quad-core 2630QM is incredibly fast, and you really won't be able to tell the difference between it and the 2820QM without running benchmarks. It'll probably be at least a $300 upgrade, though, so it's just not worth it - put that money towards a docking station, a bigger/faster SSD, a nice multi-monitor setup for your desk, or whatever else looks good. In a few years if the 2630QM starts to hold you back you'll be able to pick up a 2820QM (or better) for a fraction of what it'll cost you to upgrade today (especially if you sell the 2630QM.)

What I'd really be hoping for, though, is Ivy Bridge (22nm shrink of Sandy Bridge.) Intel has already said that it'll be fully compatible with existing desktop solutions, so there's every reason to hope that somewhere down the line you'll be able to pop in a much faster CPU than anything you can buy today. That's not a guarantee, of course, because mobile is a whole different ballgame, but the worst thing I'd expect would be needing to find a BIOS that'll support Ivy Bridge. If Dell, HP, or Lenovo don't release one, all three of their workstation laptops have huge technically savvy customer bases, and I'd fully expect a custom BIOS to surface if it's at all possible to make one.


As an aside, military grade generally goes something like this:
Bureaucrat/General - We need more widgets!
Aide - I'll fill out form XYZ-22 describing a widget so we can get bids.
...
Marketing Department - Oooh, look! Our product is described by a this form XYZ-22! It's military grade!
Intern - But that's really jut a description of what a widget is...
Market Department - Quiet, you!

In terms of laptops, "military grade" can mean it meets very high dust, vibration, and shock tolerances (or just one subset of those tests) that most other laptops would fail (because not many people explode their laptop in a sandstorm), but the only thing I've ever seen used by the military in the field is a ToughBook - and the W520 is almost a delicate china doll by comparison.

[2.71828183]

If no one thinks it will be an issue, then it's not an issue. Just raising a potential concern.

I try to be gentle, but I will be in college, so I imagine it's going to get banged up a bit more than, say, in a home / business environment.

It depends how rough you are on your stuff. I have a semi-budget plastic laptop that's survived ~3 years of daily back-and-forth to classes just fine. It had one gremlin (an odd booting issue that eventually went away on its own) that might have been hardware related, but nothing other than that.

On the other hand, I've known people that damage a laptop hinge or whatever within the first six months. And sometimes accidents happen no matter how careful you are. That being said, durability of the kinds of machines you're looking at ought to be way better than the plastic stuff I'm familiar with.

---

On a separate note, I know (because my first year in college, I only had a laptop) that I couldn't stand doing desktop-type work without a separate keyboard, mouse, and screen. You may be able to live with your laptop's screen, as typically the high-end models actually have decent screens, whereas mine has a crappy one; but that's something I'd want to verify by seeing in person before purchase, if possible. You definitely will want a separate keyboard and mouse for ergonomics' sake.

[transient]

I noticed that most of the recommend laptops (Dell M4600, HP 8560W, Lenovo W520, Sony Vaio C series) are mobile workstations. Is there a reason laptops more oriented towards, say, gaming, were not recommended? Are there any other laptops I should look into? Any ideas on the release dates of the M4600 and 8560W (there doesn't seem to be anything specific except for "May!", etc).

I'm also not sure why I would need a Quadro over a "regular" graphics card, as I'm not expecting to be doing anything computationally intensive -- my fields of study are basically computer science and theoretical mathematics. It seems like a Quadro would be disadvantageous in that situation because it would not perform as well on games.

Is getting the warranty worthwhile?

If the laptop supports multiple hard-drives, will the vendor build the laptop differently if I do not purchase two hard-drives from them? As in, could they cripple it and prevent me from running an SSD and HDD setup if I only get a (SSD xor HDD) from them?

Furthermore, what is the best way to get the best deal when buying the laptop? Going through a salesperson instead of the web? I imagine I won't be able to cash in on back-to-school promotions due to the nature of the laptops I'm looking into (am I wrong?).

Sorry for so many questions. Thanks for the help thus far.

[SmoothBlade]

Well as far as gaming goes, Alienware is the first name that comes to mind. They even have a 3D model out now, M17x, although I don't see that as necessary at all. Then again so much about alienware is its pure excessive, unnecessary bonuses like changing the color lights on the keyboard. The M11x is specifically designed for mobile games if thats what you want. Essentially your getting a beefy, video game oriented Dell, I hope to get one after this Dell Inspiron 1521 finally decides to kill itself... it already has tried several times.

[GeorgeH]

The logic goes something like this:
1) You have a large budget, so get the best
2) High-end business-class laptops are the quality gold standard
3) Workstation laptops are the high-end business-class laptops that come with GPUs suitable for gaming

Gaming laptops sell on specs, not build quality. If you read the reviews closely, you'll see lots of flimsy keyboards, comments about cheap plastics, mediocre screens, loud fans, and similar tidbits that tell you they're basically tupperware with some expensive silicon shoved inside. Having owned a gaming laptop and used and worked with more than a few others, I can say that I'm not aware of a single one on the market that I would buy for myself.

A large part of that is I just don't see any value in an expensive "high-end" mobile GPU that's going to suck wattage and spew heat like it's going out of style. The 485m, essentially the fastest mobile GPU made, is still only somewhere between a desktop GTX460 and a GTX 560; no slouch, but it's also typically a ~$500 upgrade option and around $800-900 all by itself. You could build a complete tower for that kind of money, and you're not going to be gaming for very long on a battery - so what's the point? Other mobile gaming GPUs have better value coefficients, but not by much; the rate at which they become more affordable is pretty close to the rate at which they lose performance.

A Quadro 1000/2000 isn't going to be playing Crysis maxed out, but it will let you game. I've found that the gaming performance difference between Quadro and Geforce is often hugely overstated. They're essentially the exact same thing with different drivers, and although the GeForce drivers do get performance tweaks more quickly than the Quadro drivers, the Quadro drivers are never very far behind. Anecdotally I've also found that Quadros have ridiculous amounts of overclocking headroom (30%+ increase over stock), to the point where they were still stable when Afterburner maxed itself out.

You should run into zero problems buying a hard drive caddy separately and installing it yourself.

Warranty - Anything over the standard one isn't worth it to me.

Deals - The few sales staff that I've dealt with did have the ability to offer discounts, so it wouldn't hurt to call and ask; the worst they can do is offer you the web price. The laptops do go on sale, but not in any pattern that I've noticed, although I want to say that I've seen some during the back to school season (but I really don't recall.)

No idea on release dates.

[zmatt]

Lenovo is a great option. Very high quality, great keyboard. They will last for years.


I would either get an X or W series depending on what size you want. The X220 is a great laptop. It has intel integrated, but form what i understand the newest generation is a lot better than before. Still no dedicated card, but it's a 3lb laptop.

[theorigamist]

I can't speak towards build quality (since I don't own one), but on specs and price, you should probably consider the System 76 Gazelle.

[GeorgeH]

That's a Sager NP8130/NP8150 Clevo P150HM/P151HM with some minor custom work. Dozens of places sell them under different names, here's a review of one with a relevant quote:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4223/euro ... 970m-rocks

My bigger issue with this as a mobile workstation is that the build quality is nowhere near that of notebooks like the Dell Precision, HP EliteBook, or Lenovo ThinkPad W-series. There’s no magnesium-alloy frame, metal surfaces, or spill resistant keyboard here; instead, you get a Clevo notebook with a few extras courtesy of Eurocom.

[transient]

So I just noticed that the Dell M4600 and HP 8560W have numeric keypads and that their trackpads are to the left of center. The Lenovo W520 does not have a keypad and the trackpad is in the center.

I rarely use the numeric keypad and do not see a reason to have one if it detracts from the type experience. Does including the keypad cramp the keyboard?

Left of center trackpads always annoyed me when playing around with laptops. Are they difficult to adjust to? Do they work as well, or better?

Are these design choices enough to discredit the M4600 and 8560W over the W520?

Thanks.

[GeorgeH]

<Jedi> The trackpads are centered. Move along. </Jedi>

The trackpads may not be centered on the screen, but they are centered on the keyboard (and the W520's trackpad actually isn't centered on the screen either, it just isn't offset as much as the others.) I don't find typing and trackpad-ing slightly off-center to be a problem at all, but I'm me and you're probably not. I've very occasionally wished for a number pad (mostly for old programs that assume I have one), but it's never occurred to me to wish for a screen-centered keyboard and trackpad. When you sit down to a desktop PC, do you center the keyboard on the screen, do you center the space bar on the screen, or do you even notice?

The sizes of the keys should be comparable, if not identical without breaking out a micrometer; I've never broken out a ruler to see if a number pad keyboard is more cramped, but I'd bet it's just as roomy as one without a number pad. If you look at the M4600, you'll notice that its keyboard goes tight to the edge of the laptop, while the W520 has a large border on either side.


EDIT - I just realized why I might not be bothered by offset keyboards. I typically work with two windows open at the same time, one on the left side of the screen and one on the right (I couldn't give up Windows 7's snap feature if I wanted to, I'm completely addicted at this point.) My "primary" window is almost always the one on the left, so a shifted keyboard is actually probably better than a centered one for me.

[Parsifal]

I would also mention System 76 - one of the most prominent vendors that ships with Linux installed. I would caution against 'ibuypower' - I almost bought a system from them recently and had a bad experience where I paid a premium for next day shipping then got the runaround before I asked them to cancel the order.

[transient]

So, as of now, I'm going to go with the Lenovo w520. I have a few questions about configuration though:

Looks like you can't have two hdds + a dvd drive. Shucks. I'll probably upgrade to a SSD in the future when 300+ gigs isn't absurdly expensive.

The system is currently configured for 4 gigs of memory; is there a need for more?

Here are the integrated WiFi wireless LAN adapters options. Is it worth upgrading, for say better reception or better Linux compatibility?

• [selected] ThinkPad b/g/n
  
• [add $17.00] Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6205 (2x2 AGN)
  
• [add $34.00] Intel Centrino Ultimate-N 6300 (3x3 AGN)
  
• [add $46.75] Intel Centrino Advanced-N + WiMAX 6250

Here is the system:

• Intel Core i7-2720QM Processor (2.20GHz, 6MB L3)
• Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64 English
• 15.6" FHD (1920 x 1080) LED Backlit Anti-Glare Display, Mobile Broadband Ready
• NVIDIA Quadro 2000M Graphics with 2GB DDR3 Memory
• No Color Sensor
• 4 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM) (note: 4 slots available and 1 DIMM was more expensive)
• Internal RAID - Not Enabled
• Express Card Slot & 4 in 1 Card Reader & Smart Card Reader
• Bluetooth 3.0 (free)
• 500 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm (free upgrade from 320 GB @ 7200 RPM)
• 720p Camera
• ThinkPad b/g/n

It comes in at ~1509.22 ($2900 without coupons / "discount"). I'm going to try and call and see if it's possible to get it lower, but I have a feeling my current discounts will prevent this. See any problems?

Also, as for accessories I have headphones, mouse, keyboard, a messenger / backpack, and probably a printer. Think I need anything else?

[GeorgeH]

RAM - 4GB is just fine for now, but you'll probably want to upgrade sometime down the line. Depending on the price difference, I'd go for a single 4GB stick, buy another 4GB stick from Newegg or similar, and then buy another 8GB in the future if I ever felt the need for more.

WiFi - I'd actually prefer "ThinkPad" wireless to Centrino wireless, for no other reasons than I've had bad experiences with Intel's Windows drivers in the past, and the "ThinkPad" wireless might be a chipset that'll work with a hackintosh. Obviously neither of those really apply to Linux, though. The only potential "gotcha" I can think of is that the 6300 version might be the only one that comes with 3 antennas, which could make upgrading to a 3x3 WiFi card more difficult in the future if you ever decide that you want to.

Otherwise, it looks like exactly what I would order. As far as accessories go, you might want to consider a docking station and an external hard drive.

[transient]

RAM - 4GB is just fine for now, but you'll probably want to upgrade sometime down the line. Depending on the price difference, I'd go for a single 4GB stick, buy another 4GB stick from Newegg or similar, and then buy another 8GB in the future if I ever felt the need for more.

Otherwise, it looks like exactly what I would order. As far as accessories go, you might want to consider a docking station and an external hard drive.

With one of the discounts, switching to 1 DIMM causes an ~ $80 price jump, which is just not worth it imho. I would be shocked if I needed more than 8-12 gigs of ram in the next 5-6 years with the laptop's hardware. If I need that much computation power (assuming that it would scale with memory footprint), I imagine I would just get a new computer.

Is it bad to get memory of different sizes (ie 2, 2, and 4 gigs)?

Also, I don't understand the need for a docking station. If you need more USB ports, it seems like a USB hub would be better and would take up less space. It might be convenient to not have to take the cord out of the bag and plug it in whenever I return, though (but will I travel with the cord all that often with a 4-7 hour battery life?).

[EvanED]

Depends on what you have sitting around you'd need to plug in. If I used a laptop at home instead of a desktop, I'd have at least a keyboard, mouse, monitor, sound, and power that would need to be plugged in, and probably either a network cable or external USB hard drive. (Incidentally the fact that this list is so large is not unrelated to the fact that I have a desktop. ) Going in and setting the computer down in a docking station is rather more convenient. How much more convenient? That's up to you.

[transient]

As a note, a sales rep told me that the processor was soldered onto the motherboard for the w520. So I guess no upgrading that in a couple of years.

Does this look fine for additional memory? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145283

I'm also looking for a mSATA SSD drive (turns out the w520 supports it). I noticed the Intel mSATA SSD 310 and it seems to get good reviews. Any other good options to consider? I saw the MDMS-50128 but couldn't find any reviews.

[GeorgeH]

According to Lenovo's service manual the W520's CPU is socketed, not soldered - I'd wager that sales rep doesn't know they're talking about.

If you were running Windows I'd suggest considering a <64GB SSD and SRT (which the W520 *should* eventually support.) With Linux, I'd suggest going with Intel for no other reason than they have far and away the best SSD reliability record and reasonably competitive performance. I really have no experience with mSATA SSDs, though, so I can't say much more than that.

That RAM looks just fine. I'd probably wait and get a stick that exactly matches the timings of whatever the W520 comes with, but that's really not even remotely necessary unless you have OCD about stuff like that.

[a123]

HP 8560w does not run Linux. I have tried installing Linuxmint, Ubuntu, etc. There are other posts about this. If you want just a windows machine, that can run CAD really well, the 8560w is good. However, the machine is a tank at 6.8 pounds.

HP lied through their teeth about the 8560w running Linux.

[GeorgeH]

PEBKAC

HP supplies Linux drivers for the 8560W and it's certified by Novell for SuSE. It sucks that you're having problems with your preferred flavor, but that's part of the "fun" of Linux - you get to spend endless hours figuring out how to make it work properly.

[a123]

Certifying a machine that doesn't work is fraud. Read these:

1) http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=91276
2) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/870071
3) http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?65670-HP-8560w-NVidia-Qadro-2000M-flashing-%28Ubuntu-OpenSuse-Mint%29

As you can see, I am not the only person who has problems with this machine. I have spoken at length with HP, and they do not support Linux, and have no intention of updating the bios, so that it works with Linux. I have asked Cost Central for a full refund, and will be shipping it back to them.

Great machine if you want to run games, CAD. But this is an awful machine with a clunky poorly constructed bios, that almost requires microsurgery and ambidextrous capability, to adjust the bios settings.

Furthermore the only type of support HP will offer you is to teach you how to use their windows system. They offer no hardware, no software, or anything else. They probably don't even know what is underneath the lid, since this machinery is shipped here from Asia. At this point HP acts more like a reseller of someone else's hardware, than a manufacturer or designer of technology.

[GeorgeH]

My very first Google search for "8560w Ubuntu" gives me this, wherein multiple people have installed Linux just fine on their 8560w. Sure it didn't "just work", but we're not talking about OSX on an iMac.

It sucks that things aren't working for you, and I don't intend to be harsh, but that's really your malfunction. This is clearly a Linux software issue and as you have paid exactly nothing for Linux it's on you to figure out what the problem is. No OEM is ever going to offer tech support for an OS that they don't ship their laptop with, that's a ridiculous expectation (especially with millions of "Linux" options out there.)