Osama bin Laden is Dead

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Sun May 08, 2011 10:00 pm UTC

Again I find myself wishing Chomsky would've just stuck to linguistics where he was useful.

It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we apprehend several hijackers and planners, who were all Al Qaeda affiliated? Isn't the place that the plot was hatched utterly irrelevant, since we invaded on the grounds that the Taliban had offered Al Qaeda asylum? Also, note that he insists on us following the standards of both criminal law and international war crimes law- he wants Osama to be both a criminal AND a soldier so he can argue maximum legal protection for him and maximum criminality for any and all American decision-makers.

There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.

The lack of nuance and understanding in this paragraph gives me a headache. We buried him at sea (in as respectful a manner as any enemy could expect, which I believe shows considerable national character on our part) because choosing an appropriate site for his burial would have been damn near impossible. We've been conducting operations in other parts of Pakistan for years, so while this is controversial it's hardly anything new. It is also well-known that many in the Pakistani government and defense establishments have conflicting interests that lead them to favor Pashtun terrorists and militias over their American allies, for reasons that are perfectly understandable but still dangerous obstacles to us.

We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.

I may be unpopular for saying this, but- for any country, much less states like the UK, the USSR, the United States, and France- to condemn declarations of war as the "supreme international crime" was astonishingly hypocritical. I also find the attitude that warfare is innately criminal to be a complete fantasy. The Nazis should have been tried for their crimes against Jews and all other minorities they oppressed, brutalized and murdered, but I can't help but scoff at the idea of the Allied empires criminalizing expansionism. FUCKING INDIA, GUYS. SERIOUSLY.

Also, I'm sure Chomsky would find this hypocritical, but heads of state do get a little more leeway in my book than terrorist capos.

There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.

Regarding this... all I can say is that Bush is not a very smart man, and the Bush doctrine was hazy and oversimplistic.

Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders.

I actually could empathize with this sentiment (I think that, at worst, Geronimo was a tragic/quixotic figure, and I grew up near the Apache reservation, visiting their ruins and learning about what a badass warrior culture they produced), except I know that names for operations are not intended to carry very much symbolic depth. And also, even as someone who respects Geronimo and Native American culture in general, I realize that their struggle with the US was unavoidable and they were destined to lose it. I don't believe any race or nation should be made to feel guilt for coming out on the winning side.

It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”
1) I take offense to him characterizing all military hardware as "murder weapons."
2) The Apaches are still studied by the American military as an example of a strong warrior culture. MCMAP puts them up there with the fucking Spartans ferchrissakes. They're not some poor victims that we just rounded up and put in camps, they're a historically tough, resourceful adversary that still commands a lot of respect among the people who know their history. Tomahawks (which is to say Native-style axes) were already a common American weapon before Independence, so that's even less apt.
3) Godwin's Law.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 09, 2011 12:13 am UTC

IcedT wrote:

Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders.

I actually could empathize with this sentiment (I think that, at worst, Geronimo was a tragic/quixotic figure, and I grew up near the Apache reservation, visiting their ruins and learning about what a badass warrior culture they produced), except I know that names for operations are not intended to carry very much symbolic depth. And also, even as someone who respects Geronimo and Native American culture in general, I realize that their struggle with the US was unavoidable and they were destined to lose it. I don't believe any race or nation should be made to feel guilt for coming out on the winning side.

It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”
1) I take offense to him characterizing all military hardware as "murder weapons."
2) The Apaches are still studied by the American military as an example of a strong warrior culture. MCMAP puts them up there with the fucking Spartans ferchrissakes. They're not some poor victims that we just rounded up and put in camps, they're a historically tough, resourceful adversary that still commands a lot of respect among the people who know their history. Tomahawks (which is to say Native-style axes) were already a common American weapon before Independence, so that's even less apt.
3) Godwin's Law.

Just because somebody is studied as a warrior culture doesn't mean that we aren't naming our weapons after people who suffered at the hands of U.S. Imperialism. And having the people who destroyed your culture name their weapons after you in honor of the culture they destroyed is a little dickish. Saying, "look, we revere you," as a way to ignore the fact that we were also responsible for your destruction is a dickish move. I actually find that to be one of the stronger points in what is overall a not very well constructed piece. It doesn't matter whether they offered strong resistance or not, it's cultural appropriation by their enemy.
3. It's not Godwin's law for Christsake. He uses the Nuremberg trials because they set forth the international law he's referring to. He's not saying that Bush was a NAZI, he's saying that Bush is guilty of violating the laws we used to prosecute others with. Not every reference to Hitler is a Godwin's law automatically.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 09, 2011 12:39 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Just because somebody is studied as a warrior culture doesn't mean that we aren't naming our weapons after people who suffered at the hands of U.S. Imperialism. And having the people who destroyed your culture name their weapons after you in honor of the culture they destroyed is a little dickish. Saying, "look, we revere you," as a way to ignore the fact that we were also responsible for your destruction is a dickish move. I actually find that to be one of the stronger points in what is overall a not very well constructed piece. It doesn't matter whether they offered strong resistance or not, it's cultural appropriation by their enemy.

I would argue that military appropriations of Native culture are pretty benign compared to, say, sports mascot Indians. I hardly think it's used as a way to ignore the fact that America is responsible for their defeat and decline- who the hell is ignorant enough to think that they just shuffled into reservations on their own? Particularly in the case of the Apache, almost their whole known military history consists of anti-American resistance. Same can be said of the Sioux-Lakota and others.

Suffice it to say I think the military's handling of Indians as powerful and respected adversaries is one of the few ways people learn about them at all, and one of even fewer that spread generally-positive messages and connotations about them. I don't like this situation any better than you do, as a guy who's spent most of his life just a few miles from a reservation, but it doesn't make sense to go after the Army instead of the Redskins.

Jahoclave wrote:3. It's not Godwin's law for Christsake. He uses the Nuremberg trials because they set forth the international law he's referring to. He's not saying that Bush was a NAZI, he's saying that Bush is guilty of violating the laws we used to prosecute others with. Not every reference to Hitler is a Godwin's law automatically.
His Nuremburg references were perfectly legitimate legal arguments and I treated them as such- I totally did not call Godwin on any of that. My complaint about that argument was basically that the legal principles used at Nuremburg weren't really produced in good faith (i.e., the Allies were all in direct possession of colonial holdings taken through force, but sanctimoniously and hypocritically decided to criminalize Germany's expansionism instead of treating it like normal warfare). Comparing an American aircraft called "Apache" to a Nazi aircraft called "Jew" is simply a false equivalency, designed to make us look bad by comparing us to Nazis (hence, Godwin). The Apaches were mistreated of course, and continue to be mistreated because of hypocritical reservation policies, but they were an enemy and not a victim in the way that Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and others were victims of the Nazis.

Anyway, to clarify why I'm so critical of Chomsky, it's because he consistently expresses an attitude that to be strong/victorious is to be evil and to be weak/defeated is to be noble. Everything I've read of his equates morality directly to power, and makes the assumption that goodness is perfectly, inversely proportional to power, prestige and success. Besides his attitudes being completely and utterly suicidal for anyone in leadership, I think it's shallow and patronizing towards the 'losers' of history, because he can only see them as victims. Their individual characters, histories and achievements are secondary to his desire to demonize Anglo-American power at all turns.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark Avorian » Mon May 09, 2011 12:50 am UTC

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 09, 2011 12:57 am UTC

Except that the Apaches had a choice, be an enemy and chance not being a victim of U.S. Imperialism, or just be victim. Just because somebody chooses resistance doesn't mean appropriation of their lands and destruction of their culture is right. That would be like saying it was okay to kill the Jews if they massively fought back against extermination. The aggression placed them in that position.

And yes, the naming really does work to conceal the history. It says, they are part of us, rather than they fought against us and our goals. It helps to legitimize their destruction through our appropriation. And, just because sports mascots are worse doesn't mean we can't also go after the military, especially since the military is part of the state, unlike sports teams.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 09, 2011 1:14 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Except that the Apaches had a choice, be an enemy and chance not being a victim of U.S. Imperialism, or just be victim. Just because somebody chooses resistance doesn't mean appropriation of their lands and destruction of their culture is right. That would be like saying it was okay to kill the Jews if they massively fought back against extermination. The aggression placed them in that position.

I don't believe that the conquest and annexation of the American West was "right" but I'm not prepared to call it wrong either. I believe wars over land and resources are essentially neutral ground- just because two or more powers are in competition doesn't mean any kind of moral hierarchy applies. The morality is all in the conduct- American military actions during the Indian wars were frequently immoral, targeting women, children and the unarmed, or destroying the natural resources tribes depended on, or treating the natives as squatters. Various tribes also raided peaceful settlements, took slaves or hostages, mutilated corpses, and tortured prisoners. It was war, and though they were tough they lost.

Fighting a people for control of land or resources, and exterminating them just because they're different and you don't like them, are nowhere near the same thing.

Jahoclave wrote:And yes, the naming really does work to conceal the history. It says, they are part of us, rather than they fought against us and our goals. It helps to legitimize their destruction through our appropriation. And, just because sports mascots are worse doesn't mean we can't also go after the military, especially since the military is part of the state, unlike sports teams.
So, what do you suggest we do? Remove references to Indians from military instruction and manual because it's insensitive and give the Apache a regular innocuous military name like Stryker or Warthog? I really don't see how this produces any benefit for Indians anywhere. I'm a lot more interested in reforming the reservation system and helping them cope with poverty and social disintegration than dealing with pointless PC that affects nothing but our own self-image.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Jahoclave » Mon May 09, 2011 2:59 am UTC

IcedT wrote:
Jahoclave wrote:Except that the Apaches had a choice, be an enemy and chance not being a victim of U.S. Imperialism, or just be victim. Just because somebody chooses resistance doesn't mean appropriation of their lands and destruction of their culture is right. That would be like saying it was okay to kill the Jews if they massively fought back against extermination. The aggression placed them in that position.

I don't believe that the conquest and annexation of the American West was "right" but I'm not prepared to call it wrong either. I believe wars over land and resources are essentially neutral ground- just because two or more powers are in competition doesn't mean any kind of moral hierarchy applies. The morality is all in the conduct- American military actions during the Indian wars were frequently immoral, targeting women, children and the unarmed, or destroying the natural resources tribes depended on, or treating the natives as squatters. Various tribes also raided peaceful settlements, took slaves or hostages, mutilated corpses, and tortured prisoners. It was war, and though they were tough they lost.

Fighting a people for control of land or resources, and exterminating them just because they're different and you don't like them, are nowhere near the same thing.

Yeah, because the natives were everything like us and we just loved them. Your neutrality on conquest policy: kind of laughable if it weren't so sad. It's nice to see that you're such a staunch supporter of imperialism.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Mon May 09, 2011 3:07 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote: It's nice to see that you're such a staunch supporter of imperialism.


This is a total misrepresentation of his stance. I'm pretty sure he's saying that the American conflict with the Apache was to take their land, not to kill them all.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 09, 2011 3:20 am UTC

Jahoclave wrote:Yeah, because the natives were everything like us and we just loved them.
Where did I say that? They had a resource we wanted, we declared war and defeated them, then we made treaties. This is how states in conflict interact. How the fuck is that like making a list of 'undesirables' and murdering them all basically for shits and giggles?

Jahoclave wrote: Your neutrality on conquest policy: kind of laughable if it weren't so sad. It's nice to see that you're such a staunch supporter of imperialism.
I'm not a supporter of it, I just recognize that at bottom, most international questions come down to "who's stronger?" Power conflicts are inevitable and I think we do more good in the world by trying to see that power struggles are handled in as decent and honorable a way as possible instead of chasing delusions of everybody getting along forever.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby gmalivuk » Mon May 09, 2011 3:31 am UTC

IcedT wrote:then we made treaties.
Which we mostly broke whenever it was convenient. Yeah, really statesman-like, that...
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 09, 2011 3:37 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
IcedT wrote:then we made treaties.
Which we mostly broke whenever it was convenient. Yeah, really statesman-like, that...

I agree. We shouldn't have broken the treaties we made and we shouldn't have made treaties we didn't intend to keep. THAT was immoral.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Eowiel » Mon May 09, 2011 7:41 am UTC

IcedT wrote:I don't believe that the conquest and annexation of the American West was "right" but I'm not prepared to call it wrong either. I believe wars over land and resources are essentially neutral ground- just because two or more powers are in competition doesn't mean any kind of moral hierarchy applies. The morality is all in the conduct- American military actions during the Indian wars were frequently immoral, targeting women, children and the unarmed, or destroying the natural resources tribes depended on, or treating the natives as squatters. Various tribes also raided peaceful settlements, took slaves or hostages, mutilated corpses, and tortured prisoners. It was war, and though they were tough they lost.

Fighting a people for control of land or resources, and exterminating them just because they're different and you don't like them, are nowhere near the same thing.



I wonder if that means you would be ok with robbing someone, as long as you don't use excessive violence or target minorities and all that. Or does your ethical framework only apply when it exculpates the nation you live in?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Zamfir » Mon May 09, 2011 8:06 am UTC

IceT, it might work to have a moral framework where wars of aggression are just fair power struggles, if everyone involved agreed on that. But that's hardly ever the case. The people under attack see a war against them as a crime, never as a fair round in a power game. It's only the aggressor or the eventual victor who describes the war as fair power struggle with the spoils justly going to the strongest.

You can see this clearly at work in the attitude of European settlers (in the Americas or elsewhere) when they were under attack by natives who tried to take, even retake land from the settlers. The reaction was rarely if ever "oh, fair game, we did the same to them last year". The usual response was moral outcry and a viscious retalliation against the injustice of taking land from the rightful owners.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby LtNOWIS » Mon May 09, 2011 12:01 pm UTC

IcedT wrote:I actually could empathize with this sentiment (I think that, at worst, Geronimo was a tragic/quixotic figure, and I grew up near the Apache reservation, visiting their ruins and learning about what a badass warrior culture they produced), except I know that names for operations are not intended to carry very much symbolic depth. And also, even as someone who respects Geronimo and Native American culture in general, I realize that their struggle with the US was unavoidable and they were destined to lose it. I don't believe any race or nation should be made to feel guilt for coming out on the winning side.

Indeed, a lot of more warlike Native American tribes continue their warrior traditions in the Armed Forces. You'll see a lot of "Support the Troops" type stuff on the reservations.

Jahoclave wrote:Yeah, because the natives were everything like us and we just loved them. Your neutrality on conquest policy: kind of laughable if it weren't so sad. It's nice to see that you're such a staunch supporter of imperialism.

Essentially civilization history got their land by beating up someone weaker. The US is no different in that regard than the Canada, Latin America, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, or any other country. Siberia and Patagonia didn't become mostly white by accident. And the Southwest wasn't empty when the Apache moved in either. They had a lot of conflicts with the Pueblo peoples.

Indeed, I celebrate our military's glorious yet difficult victory over the Native Americans is vastly under-appreciated. It would be hypocritical of me to enjoy the fruits of American expansion while simultaneously condemning it. I could say that as someone who's currently west of the Mississippi, who's spent a lot of time on I-80 and I-40. But even in the 1600s, when the colonies in Massachusetts and Virginia were in their infancy, they had to fight for survival against the Natives. Fighting Native Americans is therefore the foundation of this country. And I will not apologize for existing.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Hawknc » Mon May 09, 2011 12:17 pm UTC

I'm just going to head this one off at the pass - please don't turn this thread into a flamewar about US history. Keep your discussions at least tangentially related to the topic of bin Laden.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Heisenberg » Mon May 09, 2011 1:35 pm UTC

Whether it was intended only to name the military operation to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden or to give Osama Bin Laden himself the code name Geronimo, either was an outrageous insult and mistake. And it is clear from the military records released that the name Geronimo was used at times by military personnel involved for both the military operation and for Osama Bin Laden himself.

Obviously to equate Geronimo with Osama Bin Laden is an unpardonable slander of Native America and its most famous leader in history.

And to call the operation to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden by the name Geronimo is such a subversion of history that it also defames a great human spirit and Native American leader. For Geronimo himself was the focus of precisely such an operation by the U.S. military, an operation that assured Geronimo a lasting place in American and human history.

-Harlyn Geronimo, Geronimo’s great-grandson, Senate Commission on Indian Affairs for a hearing on racist stereotypes of Native Americans, May 5, 2011
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Eowiel » Mon May 09, 2011 2:29 pm UTC

Who knows, maybe the name Geronimo is chosen as some sort of acknowledgement that the US was partially to blame for the crimes of these two men, that the US military in both cases had to clean up a mess the US itself was responsible for. Both intentionally targeted civilians and both men their behaviour can be (at least partially) explained by the fact that they saw themselves as victims of US policies.

I doubt however that this is true.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Mon May 09, 2011 2:34 pm UTC

The (then captain) that "captured" Geronimo did so by threatening the lives of every single man, woman, and child in the colony he was in at the time. The options were, come with us, or watch everyone here die. Geronimo chose to go with the military.

His evasion of the US military is studied by people in my profession. His tactics were legendary, beautiful in their efficiency.

UBL's tactics were much simpler to accomplish, because unlike Geronimo, he could hide amongst the population of countries where the US did not dare go into on a whim.

Geronimo was only captured once he allowed himself to settle in somewhere. He intentionally did not put his people at risk.

UBL didn't give two shits about anyone but himself.

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Malice » Mon May 09, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
For Geronimo himself was the focus of precisely such an operation by the U.S. military, an operation that assured Geronimo a lasting place in American and human history.


In a weird way, this actually makes it okay for me.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dark567 » Mon May 09, 2011 6:50 pm UTC

Somehow I knew this in was coming in response to Chomsky.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby IcedT » Mon May 09, 2011 8:01 pm UTC

@Eowiel, Zamfir: I'm fine with continuing this, but like the mod said this is getting pretty OT. Should we just start a thread about the Chomsky article and pick it up from there?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby samusaran253 » Tue May 10, 2011 4:12 pm UTC

Looks like Osama shouldn't have used his real address on the PlayStation Network.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby LtNOWIS » Tue May 10, 2011 5:01 pm UTC

Sorry to go off topic like that...

Anyways, Cindy Sheehan thinks that you're stupid for thinking the president is telling the truth about Bin Laden's death.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dauric » Tue May 10, 2011 5:26 pm UTC

LtNOWIS wrote:Sorry to go off topic like that...

Anyways, Cindy Sheehan thinks that you're stupid for thinking the president is telling the truth about Bin Laden's death.


Conspiracy theorists will be conspiracy theorists.

That article is a bit dated given that Al Quida has publicly confirmed the death of Osama. I'm not sure how that has affected some of those theories. Note I say "affected" not "disproved".

Of course that won't stop the theorists that believe Al Quida is an American construct to justify imperial oil interests, and Osama is securely tucked away in an undisclosed facility keeping busy forging birth certificates for the next wave of Islamo-fascist presidential candidates who will take their marching orders from the Shadow Congress, masonic glarbe, moon landing fargle, men in black Chinese stealth suits gorming the plunergabiz.....
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby zmatt » Tue May 10, 2011 8:23 pm UTC

you forgot the part about aliens.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Angua » Wed May 11, 2011 8:23 am UTC

So, OBL's sons aren't happy about the way things went down, and are demanding an inquiry into whether or not their was ever the possibility of capture. They also found the sea burial offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13354995
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 pm UTC

Angua wrote:So, OBL's sons aren't happy about the way things went down, and are demanding an inquiry into whether or not their was ever the possibility of capture. They also found the sea burial offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13354995


To the burial-at-sea thing I can only say: how else were we supposed to do it? Burying him on land would just turn the burial site into a shrine for extremists, and that's the last thing you want.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Heisenberg » Wed May 11, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby sourmìlk » Wed May 11, 2011 8:11 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.


And somehow I'd imagine that burying him in the middle of a Saudi stretch of desert might not go over well with them either. They probably want a site where they can visit their father, and I can't say I blame them.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Radical_Initiator » Wed May 11, 2011 8:17 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.


Plus, where is "somewhere extremists couldn't get to"? Some of these extremists have a fair amount of money, and pretty much most places on land are accessible, with the possible exception of dropping him in the middle of the Himalayas (maybe not a bad idea) or sticking him under the floorboards of Longwood House. If it can be reached, it's possible someone will try to bring him back. Then, you have to think about whether it's worth guarding the site. Or, on the opposite side of the coin, as you mentioned, if you leave him on land, it's just as possible that someone will try to find his remains and do something to them (I might suggest you can't really "desecrate" such a man's remains more than his soul did while he was alive). Deep ocean fixes both problems.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Wed May 11, 2011 8:19 pm UTC

Radical_Initiator wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.


Plus, where is "somewhere extremists couldn't get to"? Some of these extremists have a fair amount of money, and pretty much most places on land are accessible, with the possible exception of dropping him in the middle of the Himalayas (maybe not a bad idea) or sticking him under the floorboards of Longwood House. If it can be reached, it's possible someone will try to bring him back. Then, you have to think about whether it's worth guarding the site. Or, on the opposite side of the coin, as you mentioned, if you leave him on land, it's just as possible that someone will try to find his remains and do something to them (I might suggest you can't really "desecrate" such a man's remains more than his soul did while he was alive). Deep ocean fixes both problems.

Not just "Deep ocean" but Point Wedunno. Try and find that needle. Just try.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dauric » Wed May 11, 2011 8:21 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.


Uhm... Where exactly on land do you think you could bury his body that people willing to live in the mountainous outback of Afghanistan because of a religiously fanatical belief in their cause -couldn't- get to? I mean really, humans have built cities in the sides of cliffs and atop the highest mountain ranges, what terrain feature in your mind would stop lifetime mountaineers from getting to it?

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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Radical_Initiator » Wed May 11, 2011 8:25 pm UTC

Oregonaut wrote:
Radical_Initiator wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:I don't understand the "shrine for extremists" line, since it wouldn't be difficult to bury him somewhere extremists couldn't get to. I figured it had more to do with preventing the tradition of desecrating the remains of one's enemies.


Plus, where is "somewhere extremists couldn't get to"? Some of these extremists have a fair amount of money, and pretty much most places on land are accessible, with the possible exception of dropping him in the middle of the Himalayas (maybe not a bad idea) or sticking him under the floorboards of Longwood House. If it can be reached, it's possible someone will try to bring him back. Then, you have to think about whether it's worth guarding the site. Or, on the opposite side of the coin, as you mentioned, if you leave him on land, it's just as possible that someone will try to find his remains and do something to them (I might suggest you can't really "desecrate" such a man's remains more than his soul did while he was alive). Deep ocean fixes both problems.

Not just "Deep ocean" but Point Wedunno. Try and find that needle. Just try.


*prepares big fucking magnet*
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Wed May 11, 2011 8:36 pm UTC

To find a needle in the ocean, I'm pretty sure that a magnet big enough would damage the earth.

Thing is, there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers buried in foreign lands. Sometimes the best thing to do is to create a memorial where you are. His sons should feel lucky they didn't REALLY desecrate the corpse. Imagine if the same kinds of mobs that attacked the chopper pilot near Bakarra had gotten ahold of the remains.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Aikanaro » Wed May 11, 2011 9:21 pm UTC

Idea: Bury him in one of the most dangerous-to-get-to places on earth. Three places that come to mind right off the bat are the top of Everest, somewhere in the Antarctic, and somewhere in Australia. Let them build their shrine, and let's see how many die in attempting a pilgrimage.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Wed May 11, 2011 9:23 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Idea: Bury him in one of the most dangerous-to-get-to places on earth. Three places that come to mind right off the bat are the top of Everest, somewhere in the Antarctic, and somewhere in Australia. Let them build their shrine, and let's see how many die in attempting a pilgrimage.

Or, they'd just recover his corpse and bury him elsewhere.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby podbaydoor » Wed May 11, 2011 9:27 pm UTC

Angua wrote:So, OBL's sons aren't happy about the way things went down, and are demanding an inquiry into whether or not their was ever the possibility of capture. They also found the sea burial offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13354995

This made me laugh, because I can't think of anything in the scenario of their father's death that WOULDN'T offend them.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Heisenberg » Wed May 11, 2011 9:31 pm UTC

Bury him at Gitmo, see if Al-Qaeda will invest in a Navy.

I imagine they decided to bury him at sea when they dusted of the "What to do when you kill Bin Laden, by Colin Powell" manual and skipped to the end. It just seems like the kind of thing someone thought up a while ago as the least-bad solution.
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Oregonaut » Wed May 11, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:
Angua wrote:So, OBL's sons aren't happy about the way things went down, and are demanding an inquiry into whether or not their was ever the possibility of capture. They also found the sea burial offensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13354995

This made me laugh, because I can't think of anything in the scenario of their father's death that WOULDN'T offend them.

Maybe the curtains?
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Re: Osama bin Laden is Dead

Postby Dauric » Wed May 11, 2011 9:44 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Bury him at Gitmo, see if Al-Qaeda will invest in a Navy.

I imagine they decided to bury him at sea when they dusted of the "What to do when you kill Bin Laden, by Colin Powell" manual and skipped to the end. It just seems like the kind of thing someone thought up a while ago as the least-bad solution.


And what better solution for his body? Everest and Antarctica are fun mental images, but hauling his corpse up everest or across the arctic ice shelves would be time consuming and expensive, not to mention internationally controversial (I'm sure the Nepalese and Chinese governments would have a few choice words about interring the world's most wanted terrorist in their territory).

... And Gitmo? Are you -trying- to piss off the large portions of the middle east, Africa and Indonesia that saw him as a freedom fighter?

The body was baggage, and nobody wanted to have to put it on ice to ferry it somewhere around the world. I see no problem with his body being Cthulhu-treats.
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