Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Aaeriele » Thu May 12, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Marry, perhaps not. But I have had guys tell me they're in love with me out of the blue. It's kinda creepy.

Social awkwardness isn't limited to males.


The people I was referring to were most definitely not socially awkward. Socially aggressive would be more like it.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Outchanter » Thu May 12, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Marry, perhaps not. But I have had guys tell me they're in love with me out of the blue. It's kinda creepy.

Social awkwardness isn't limited to males.

The people I was referring to were most definitely not socially awkward. Socially aggressive would be more like it.

Call it what you like, but you'd be creeped out too if a guy you barely knew pretty much said "you're the perfect girl for me" and then invited you alone to his apartment on some pretext.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu May 12, 2011 10:27 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:
Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Marry, perhaps not. But I have had guys tell me they're in love with me out of the blue. It's kinda creepy.

Social awkwardness isn't limited to males.

The people I was referring to were most definitely not socially awkward. Socially aggressive would be more like it.

Call it what you like, but you'd be creeped out too if a guy you barely knew pretty much said "you're the perfect girl for me" and then invited you alone to his apartment on some pretext.


...I'm confused. I'm fairly certain that's *exactly* what Aaeriele was saying - that she was creeped out when "a guy [she] barely knew" was overly forward.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Outchanter » Thu May 12, 2011 10:33 pm UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:
Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:
Outchanter wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Marry, perhaps not. But I have had guys tell me they're in love with me out of the blue. It's kinda creepy.

Social awkwardness isn't limited to males.

The people I was referring to were most definitely not socially awkward. Socially aggressive would be more like it.

Call it what you like, but you'd be creeped out too if a guy you barely knew pretty much said "you're the perfect girl for me" and then invited you alone to his apartment on some pretext.


...I'm confused. I'm fairly certain that's *exactly* what Aaeriele was saying - that she was creeped out when "a guy [she] barely knew" was overly forward.

I'm confused too - I'm just pointing out that such behavior isn't limited to men. Maybe I erred in labeling this awkwardness instead of aggressiveness?
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu May 12, 2011 11:49 pm UTC

Okay, let's back up and re-clarify.

What are you labelling as socially awkward in this scenario? Is it the approacher, or the approachee?
Is your point that an equivalent scenario could occur in which a girl who a guy barely knows comes up to him and does the same thing? That's my best guess, but if so, why'd you immediately follow it with the "guy you barely knew says..." scenario?

If you're saying that one who would approach another out of the blue and declare love/ask them to come back to their apartment is socially awkward, then it's a definitional issue. I tend to associate social awkwardness with lack of assertiveness, low confidence, shyness, etc.; a loudmouthed drunk/crass boor/overly forward approacher I would not define as socially awkward, because overconfidence is the reverse of that in my mind. I didn't have a term for it, but "socially aggressive" sounds like a good one to me.

Preview-edit: Aha, I missed some of the context from the original post - you were talking about a girl being overly forward, yes. My bad, I should have read the whole post it came from and not just the quote-pyramid. I think the issue is the definitional one, then, of whether social awkwardness = shyness/being uncomfortable in social situations or social awkwardness = making others uncomfortable in social situations.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby collegestudent22 » Fri May 13, 2011 9:35 am UTC

Monika wrote:Jewish Orthodox and Arabic Israelis are exempted ... or discriminated against, how ever you want to see it.


I don't think you can be discriminated against by NOT being forced to do something your religion disapproves of.

collegestudent22 wrote:
Monika wrote:This was a study in Germany.

That explains the discrepancy.

There is no discrepancy. It's hard, but stop deluding yourself.


Cultural differences would require me to look for a study in US classrooms.

This "proven fact" is unlikely in US public schools, where there is generally no differentiation between subjects in class until 6th grade.

There may be no formal class periods, but teachers still say "it's time for math now, children". Even if they don't it's no problem to measure whether the teacher interacts more with the boys or more with the girls during class time devoted to math concepts or to let's say language study, music or art. Your statement is completely irrelevant.


I have seen no teachers interact differently during certain subjects than others in the five elementary schools I went to. It is a small sample, and anecdotal, but, again, given the cultural differences between European nations and the US, I am less likely to believe a study from Germany than one from the US.

Additionally, not being asked to answer a question never really bothered me, and doesn't really explain a (seemingly total) lack of interest

Which total lack of interest? Kindergarten boys and girls show similar interest and skill with numbers, comparisons and shapes. 10-year old children will readily tell you that math is more of a boy subject than a girl subject. How did they get this impression?


The almost total lack of interest in STEM majors from females - and the associated lack of interest in males in STEM fields from many of them. Socializing can vary factors, but I don't think it would dampen a high interest into nothing.

Also, all of my 10-year-old (or so) cousins would not say that math is "more of a boy subject", male or female. They might say that they prefer other subjects, but not that this is because of a "boy-girl" thing. My closest (in terms of distance away) female cousin says "wood shop" is her favorite subject, and her brother says his favorite subject is "English".

I don't think socializing is the sole factor in interests between the sexes. (Note: I am not saying it is not a factor at all) Otherwise, the interests of men and women would be the same in quite a few areas - watching sports, playing videogames (no one would do that, that's so nerdy), etc. And yet, millions of people ignore the social pressures to act in certain ways, and choose alternative hobbies and interests - usually resulting in them being labeled social outcasts. However, it appears that those labeled as such tend to be nerdy males, but not so for women. The unpopular girls in school are not typically nerds. Men and women are different, and socialization can accentuate those differences.

If you think hitting on someone in an inappropriate way is only when it's sexual assault, I am not surprised if your female classmates think of you as a sexist asshole.


My female classmates actually consider me a gentleman. And I would never consider asking a lady out randomly on the street, or doing something as ridiculous as "will you marry me?". I have never seen that from, well, anyone. Even the pigs I knew - the male pig does not typically do that in America. They know that won't get the girl back to their apartment for the one-night-stand they are trying to get.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Monika » Fri May 13, 2011 11:19 am UTC

HungryHobo wrote:
On the street to a random stranger: "You are so pretty. Will you marry me?" = not okay
On the street to a random stranger: "Will you go drink something / eat something with me?" = not okay


that's actually pretty close to how I got a girlfriend when I was in my teens.

though it's best to start with "hi" if it's a random stranger you meet in public rather than just starting with "marry me" cause that would freak anyone out.
believe it or not, hard as this may be for you to believe interactions along the lines of

"hi"
"hi"
"I'm <name>"
"<name>"

*chatting for a little while*

"could I get your number"
"sure, it's <number>"
"nice meeting you, cya"


can actually be part of normal, enjoyable, healthy social interaction for strangers who meet in public places like on the street or many other places.

And that's why I did not give this (hi ... chat ... phone number) as an example for being hit on inappropriately.

or were you just attacking a strawman of people who actually walk up to random strangers on the street and ask to marry them?

These were verbatim quotes, just translated from German to English.
To make it really really clear so that you cannot again make up stuff, the conversations went like this:
Male stranger: Hi.
Female: Uh, hi.
Male stranger: You are so pretty. Will you marry me?

becaue if that was the only thing you were attacking then I totally agree, walking up to someone on the street and asking for their hand in marriage without even asking their name first is a huge social faux pas.
even asking someone if they want to go for lunch some time is generally better left until after some initial introductions and pleasentries rather than just blurting it out.

Exactly. You got it. So why do you keep on talking about appropriate situations when I list inappropriate ones?

Outchanter wrote:So ultimately, the problem is not so much the hitting on as the way the hitting on is done?

SURPRISE! Did you just read only the last post or what? Let me summarize the conversation we had before you came in.
... maybe women being hit on is a reason some quit stem ...
Some dude: Men hit on women, big deal.
Me: a) I don't think women quit stem b/c of being hit on.
b) Being hit on inappropriately *is* a big deal.
That dude: What does being hit on inappropriately even mean? Sexual assault?
Me: Examples for okay approaches, examples for inappropriate ones.

collegestudent22 wrote:
Monika wrote:Jewish Orthodox and Arabic Israelis are exempted ... or discriminated against, how ever you want to see it.

I don't think you can be discriminated against by NOT being forced to do something your religion disapproves of.

That applies to the Orthodox, but not to the Arabs. Sure, [some|many] are not interested in joining the Israeli army. But having been in the army is extremely important in Israel, it's the basis for the essentially all future careers. And they are not only not forced to join, they are not allowed. Some Israeli politicians have suggested also drafting Arabic Israelis ... but it's not really likely this will happen any time soon. What might happen soon: civil substitute services. So finally (non-Orthodox) Jewish Israelis will have the option for serving in a non-military way. Also this will allow the Orthodox to be drafted, as they can then pick the civil option.

Cultural differences would require me to look for a study in US classrooms.

Then look for one. Start by clicking on the links in Jessica's posting.
Regarding gender, the differences between the US and Germany are rather small.

I have seen no teachers interact differently during certain subjects than others in the five elementary schools I went to.

I didn't ever notice it either. The teachers in those classes believed it didn't happen. The student in the classes did not believe it. When the teachers aimed for 50:50, reached 40:60 the boys believed they were disadvantaged. I.e.: That you did not notice means nothing.

I don't think socializing is the sole factor in interests between the sexes.

How come Chinese male and female students do not get different results on US SAT math questions?
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby collegestudent22 » Fri May 13, 2011 11:59 am UTC

Monika wrote:
I don't think socializing is the sole factor in interests between the sexes.

How come Chinese male and female students do not get different results on US SAT math questions?


Chinese-Americans or actual Chinese students? Also, this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor, as Chinese children are socialized VERY differently from Americans and other Westerners, and are driven towards success at everything. (This also indicates socialization is a large factor as well, with one IEEE publication I read indicating that 35% of Chinese jobs in science and tech are filled by women.)
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby podbaydoor » Fri May 13, 2011 12:51 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:
Monika wrote:
I don't think socializing is the sole factor in interests between the sexes.

How come Chinese male and female students do not get different results on US SAT math questions?


Chinese-Americans or actual Chinese students? Also, this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor, as Chinese children are socialized VERY differently from Americans and other Westerners, and are driven towards success at everything. (This also indicates socialization is a large factor as well, with one IEEE publication I read indicating that 35% of Chinese jobs in science and tech are filled by women.)

The highly-driven American women in my student class (including me) behaved very, very differently from the highly-driven Chinese women in the college we stayed at - while the American and Chinese women were both academically successful and all seeking white-collar careers, we dealt with men and crowds in very different ways. So according to your argument, American-raised and Chinese-raised women have giant differences in biology to account for this.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 13, 2011 1:47 pm UTC

They're communists, of course they are socialized.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 13, 2011 2:09 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor, as Chinese children are socialized VERY differently
Your self-contradiction is showing.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Jessica » Fri May 13, 2011 2:34 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor, as Chinese children are socialized VERY differently
Your self-contradiction is showing.
For a supposed college student, you'd think he could do some precursory research, investigation or even basic fact checking before posting. Oh well.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby HungryHobo » Fri May 13, 2011 2:49 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:Chinese-Americans or actual Chinese students? Also, this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor


actually that's more of an indicator of the opposite, that socialisation is making the big difference in this scenario.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 13, 2011 3:03 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
collegestudent22 wrote:this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor, as Chinese children are socialized VERY differently
Your self-contradiction is showing.
For a supposed college student, you'd think he could do some precursory research, investigation or even basic fact checking before posting. Oh well.
Hell, forget research. He could just bother reading the sentences he wrote and see that they contradict themselves, completely independent of any outside facts he might bother researching.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Monika » Fri May 13, 2011 3:16 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:Chinese-Americans or actual Chinese students?

Actual Chinese students. You have still not even clicked on the links Jessica posted, have you? It was in there.

Also, this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor

This makes no sense whatsoever. Or are you trying to tell us American men are biologically very different from American women in ways that are important for doing math and science while Chinese men and Chinese women are very similar in this aspect?
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby jules.LT » Fri May 13, 2011 3:42 pm UTC

Monika wrote:This makes no sense whatsoever. Or are you trying to tell us American men are biologically very different from American women in ways that are important for doing math and science while Chinese men and Chinese women are very similar in this aspect?

Well, they all look the same, don't they? :roll:
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 13, 2011 7:32 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
or were you just attacking a strawman of people who actually walk up to random strangers on the street and ask to marry them?
These were verbatim quotes, just translated from German to English.
To make it really really clear so that you cannot again make up stuff, the conversations went like this:
Male stranger: Hi.
Female: Uh, hi.
Male stranger: You are so pretty. Will you marry me?
And to head off any stupid claim that it's somehow unique to Germans or something, just today, in the single block I walk from work to the subway station, I heard this exchange behind me:

Man: Hey beautiful!
Woman (quietly): Uh, hi.
Man: Do you believe in love at first sight?
Woman: *noncommittal response*
Man: My name's ...
Treatid basically wrote:widdout elephants deh be no starting points. deh be no ZFC.


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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby collegestudent22 » Sat May 14, 2011 7:33 am UTC

Monika wrote:
Also, this would seem to indicate biology is a big factor

This makes no sense whatsoever. Or are you trying to tell us American men are biologically very different from American women in ways that are important for doing math and science while Chinese men and Chinese women are very similar in this aspect?


It was a rushed statement. Sorry. What I was trying to say was that the biology still factors in, as Chinese women are still less likely to choose a career in STEM then Chinese men, despite getting the same scores on the math portion of the SAT. I never claimed that it was the math or science involved, but that men and women have different innate interest levels in things - with men being more likely to want to know how things work and make new, better things, and women tending to be more creative in their thinking. Not by much, and not universally, but the difference still exists.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 14, 2011 7:37 am UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:biology still factors in, as Chinese women are still less likely to choose a career in STEM then Chinese men
How is that evidence that biology is what causes the difference?
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby collegestudent22 » Sat May 14, 2011 8:36 am UTC

Because the socialization factor is heavily reduced, a larger percentage of women work in China (43% of the working population), and yet they are not choosing STEM fields.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby HungryHobo » Sat May 14, 2011 3:09 pm UTC

the socialization factor is different.
there's a whole other set of sexism over there.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Aaeriele » Sat May 14, 2011 5:55 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:the socialization factor is different.
there's a whole other set of sexism over there.


^ this, this this this.

"socialization factor" is not some constant in a mathematical equation that just goes up or down. It's a very complex set of circumstances, factors, and attitudes that interact with each other.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby KingofMadCows » Sun May 15, 2011 10:17 am UTC

Women still serve a much more subservient role in Chinese culture. The government has tried to promote equality between the genders but women have been second class citizens for thousands of years and it is very hard for people to let go of their old traditions.

For middle and upper class Chinese families, women have much more freedom but for rural and lower class families, gender roles are more sharply divided. Boys are pushed to an education and a good job to support the family while girls still have to help more around the family and focus on marrying a husband to help support the family financially.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Whimsical Eloquence » Sun May 15, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

collegestudent22 wrote:as Chinese women are still less likely to choose a career in STEM then Chinese men, despite getting the same scores on the math portion of the SAT.


Hmm, maybe because they might be socialised away from it? Or, y'know, one of the fifty million other factors at play. Where's your evidence that biology is causing this?
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Headshrinker » Sun May 15, 2011 2:07 pm UTC

I had trouble finding a record of this. But a boy was accidently castrated, His parents decided to accept gender reassingnment. The Subject did not know that he was a boy but he showed typical male behaviour. Wanted a mustache, race car driver, prefered blue.
This would imply that much of the psychological differences were controlled by biology.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby PAstrychef » Sun May 15, 2011 3:30 pm UTC

Thee are several well known cases of reassignment surgery being done on infants/young children, who later learned of it and worked to reclaim their original sex. The person you're probably thinking of is David Reimer. Here is a link about him.
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Re: Looking for evidence - Male/female differences

Postby Monika » Sun May 15, 2011 11:31 pm UTC

Headshrinker wrote:I had trouble finding a record of this. But a boy was accidently castrated, His parents decided to accept gender reassingnment. The Subject did not know that he was a boy but he showed typical male behaviour. Wanted a mustache, race car driver, prefered blue.
This would imply that much of the psychological differences were controlled by biology.

Actually it just shows that gender identity is most likely biological (*) . He identified as male in spite of what his surroundings told him. Other boys wore blue, played with toy cars etc. He wanted the same.

((*) Biological is not necessarily genetic. Hormons during pregnancy are probably responsible. These are typically aligned with the chromosomes, but not always. Intersexuality is definitely one possible outcome of incongruence. Transsexuality likely is, too. Non-heterosexuality probably also is.)
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