xkcd

by **Anubis** » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:21 pm UTC

And of course there's always Eru Illuvatar from the Tolkien universe.

by **mosc** » Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:57 pm UTC

Yeah, god is a little too easy. Specifics on God are more defined by what it can't do, not what it can do. It's kind of starting from the opposite extreme. It is a very valid point though, especially as it puts some historical context on the subject. Greco-roman gods and demi-gods are examples from far earlier fiction (sorry if that offended anyone) of similarly powerful human-like beings.

by **Vash** » Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:20 pm UTC

If Dragonball Z had extended any longer, Goku would have killed every god in existence. Most likely, he would have defeated Shenlong and transcended the Dragon Balls. You know I am right. Goku wins.

by **Aikanaro** » Tue May 17, 2011 1:13 pm UTC

I've always been of the opinion that if magic isn't involved, and the fight goes on long enough, Juggernaut wins, pretty much period. From what I can tell, he effectively has a strength and durability rating of LITERALLY "infinity." If he got ahold of Goku and/or Superman, he could basically just squeeze and crush them, same as anyone else. Might take him a min, but he'd get'er'done.

Also, I always wanted to see a non-interrupted, straight-up fight between Silver Surfer and Superman.

by **IcedT** » Wed May 18, 2011 8:07 am UTC

mosc wrote:Can anybody name another example from any medium which has portrayed as much personal power as Goku? I was thinking about it and I can't come up with one (obviously ignoring DBZ villains with similar stuff). Superman is the only thing close, and he doesn't have near the output. Goku went beyond physical power, he even went beyond physics. Faster than light travel, resurrection, energy output far in excess of his mass's equivalence (e=mc^2), etc.

I respectfully submit Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, 10-lightyear-tall supermech that produces so much awesome it threatens to destroy the universe.

anubis wrote:And of course there's always Eru Illuvatar from the Tolkien universe.

Illuvatar was kindof a wimpy Deist creator god- I don't recall him doing much. The Valar are where it's at.

by **mosc** » Wed May 18, 2011 4:05 pm UTC

IcedT wrote:I respectfully submit Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, 10-lightyear-tall supermech that produces so much awesome it threatens to destroy the universe.

10-lightyear-tall ANYTHING is... weird. I mean, that would be comparable to the mass of the entire universe, wouldn't it? It would BE an entire universe more accurately.

by **IcedT** » Wed May 18, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
IcedT wrote:I respectfully submit Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, 10-lightyear-tall supermech that produces so much awesome it threatens to destroy the universe.

10-lightyear-tall ANYTHING is... weird. I mean, that would be comparable to the mass of the entire universe, wouldn't it? It would BE an entire universe more accurately.

Exactly.

by **Endless Mike** » Wed May 18, 2011 8:14 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
IcedT wrote:I respectfully submit Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, 10-lightyear-tall supermech that produces so much awesome it threatens to destroy the universe.

10-lightyear-tall ANYTHING is... weird. I mean, that would be comparable to the mass of the entire universe, wouldn't it? It would BE an entire universe more accurately.

It could be really thin.

by **WarDaft** » Thu May 19, 2011 2:21 am UTC

There's Oul. Oul would be far stronger than Goku. Oul's also a mindless killing machine so there would be no difficulty in arranging for them to fight.

by **Aikanaro** » Thu May 19, 2011 3:41 am UTC

What about old-school Doomsday vs Goku? Goku wins round 1, most likely....then round 2, Doomsday comes back, with power over TEN-THOUSAND!!!111

by **Vash** » Fri May 20, 2011 7:12 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:What about old-school Doomsday vs Goku? Goku wins round 1, most likely....then round 2, Doomsday comes back, with power over TEN-THOUSAND!!!111

Round 3, Goku's saiyan heritage allows him to come back from the brink of death with over SEVENTHEEEEN THOWWWWZZAAND! Whose plot armor is stronger?

I don't know what Oul is, but as for Juggernaut and Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, both sound pretty plausible as victors to me.

by **Endless Mike** » Mon May 23, 2011 2:27 pm UTC

Goku's plot armor is ultimately stronger since he's the protagonist here.

by **SecondTalon** » Mon May 23, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

And now?

by **grythyttan** » Mon May 23, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

Didn't Mr. Rogers win that fight already?

by **Diadem** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:37 am UTC

If we're expanding the scope of the original question... The doctor would win. Neither Goku nor Superman stand a chance. The doctor single-handedly eradicated the two most advanced races ever, he made every star in the universe go nova at every point in time, and then fixed this by generating a second big bang. Neither goku nor superman would come close to those kind of power levels.

Of course he wouldn't even fight them. He'd just change their past so they'd no longer want to fight.

by **Aikanaro** » Tue May 24, 2011 3:58 am UTC

Diadem wrote:If we're expanding the scope of the original question... The doctor would win. Neither Goku nor Superman stand a chance. The doctor single-handedly eradicated the two most advanced races ever, he made every star in the universe go nova at every point in time, and then fixed this by generating a second big bang. Neither goku nor superman would come close to those kind of power levels.

Of course he wouldn't even fight them. He'd just change their past so they'd no longer want to fight.

Or trap them at the event horizon of a collapsing galaxy, or somesuch. Or possibly just trap them in every mirror in existence, ever. Unless he forgives them someday.

by **mosc** » Tue May 24, 2011 2:52 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:What about old-school Doomsday vs Goku? Goku wins round 1, most likely....then round 2, Doomsday comes back, with power over TEN-THOUSAND!!!111

The show already had him eclipsing the 100,000,000 point barrier... you're not keeping up with the times.

by **Amnesiasoft** » Wed May 25, 2011 7:43 pm UTC

grythyttan wrote:Didn't Mr. Rogers win that fight already?

This is true. I'm also glad Bruce Schneier never stood a chance.

by **Aikanaro** » Thu May 26, 2011 2:35 am UTC

mosc wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:What about old-school Doomsday vs Goku? Goku wins round 1, most likely....then round 2, Doomsday comes back, with power over TEN-THOUSAND!!!111

The show already had him eclipsing the 100,000,000 point barrier... you're not keeping up with the times.

Well, my point being, BEATING Doomsday is feasible, but doing so permanently and/or repeatedly, not so much. Whatever you use to beat him, he'll still come back eventually, and it won't work next time. Whatever Goku's displayed power levels are in Round X, Doomsdays are some value above that in Round X+.

by **LE4dGOLEM** » Thu May 26, 2011 6:44 am UTC

Captain Marvel absolutely wipes the floor with Superman, as far as I'm aware, so I assume he'd be able to do the same to Goku.
As for actually having one fare better than the other, I think Superman would end up better off if both he and Goku were to fight Lucius the Eternal.

WarDaft wrote:There's Oul. Oul would be far stronger than Goku. Oul's also a mindless killing machine so there would be no difficulty in arranging for them to fight.

Fine Structure Oul? Wasn't Oul just a kind of malignantly omnicidal inevitability murderniverse? Hardly a fair fight... hardly a fight at all :P

by **Sarr** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:40 am UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:Lucius the Eternal.

The first 40k reference in this thread isn't to The God-Emperor Of Mankind? Heretic!

That aside, a good bit of 40k could probably kick Goku in the pants, simply because that setting is stupidly overblown. HH-Era God Emperor? Yeah. Any of the chaos gods, or hell, even greater daemons? Sure. Eldrad? What a dick. He'd find some stupidly contrived way that did it without even any effort on his part. Goku may be able to pick up a Baneblade and toss it around like it's nothing, but in a setting where the laws of reality are warped by Psykers on a daily basis, and literal gods exist, Goku's just not that special any more.

by **SecondTalon** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:20 pm UTC

LE4dGOLEM wrote:Captain Marvel absolutely wipes the floor with Superman, as far as I'm aware, so I assume he'd be able to do the same to Goku.

captain Marvel is magic, and Superman has trouble with magic.

by **Vash** » Thu May 26, 2011 4:21 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:If we're expanding the scope of ... no longer want to fight.

He wouldn't change their past, but while they were threatening to fight him he would find some way to outwit them.

by **WarDaft** » Mon May 30, 2011 4:38 am UTC

Fine Structure Oul? Wasn't Oul just a kind of malignantly omnicidal inevitability murderniverse? Hardly a fair fight... hardly a fight at all

He was a weapon created at a layer of reality no one in the story really knew anything about, and (IIRC) pointed at a target they don't know, and they were in the way. The people of Earth discovered he was coming by the line of supernovas pointing right at them. Thought it's hard to say how much his power is limited by his imprisonment in 3+1, Goku's universe also doesn't have Aleph to stop Oul from doing anything really insane.

by **Vellup** » Mon May 30, 2011 5:12 am UTC

From what I understand, power in DB basically come in short bursts that expire once the individual has taken enough damage, Goku included, which basically puts him on a time limit in battle. Once his time limit is up, his strength should degrade to the point where Superman could probably waste him with his heat vision. Superman's power however, comes directly from the sun and doesn't expire from anything short of kryptonite. Assuming that their "power levels" are relatively equal at their highest form, the battle more or less comes down to whether Goku is willing to destroy the sun (maybe hoping he can wish it back later) before his time limit is up--otherwise, if he hesitates for too long, his power level will plummet down to base level, making him pretty much helpless.

And for those that say either fighter already vastly outstrips the other in power, you could always have Goku and/or Superman vs Galactus.

by **Kag** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:34 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Well, my point being, BEATING Doomsday is feasible, but doing so permanently and/or repeatedly, not so much. Whatever you use to beat him, he'll still come back eventually, and it won't work next time. Whatever Goku's displayed power levels are in Round X, Doomsdays are some value above that in Round X+.

All Saiyans have literally the exact same ability. So, Doomsday wins round two, and then Goku is ten times as strong and crushes him the next time. And so on.

by **Aikanaro** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:24 am UTC

Kag wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Well, my point being, BEATING Doomsday is feasible, but doing so permanently and/or repeatedly, not so much. Whatever you use to beat him, he'll still come back eventually, and it won't work next time. Whatever Goku's displayed power levels are in Round X, Doomsdays are some value above that in Round X+.

All Saiyans have literally the exact same ability. So, Doomsday wins round two, and then Goku is ten times as strong and crushes him the next time. And so on.

Eh, unless eventually Doomsday develops a new power (not power LEVEL, but new ability altogether) to let him deal with Goku. Maybe intangibility or somesuch (though I've never been clear on why he hasn't gotten something like this yet). Apparently he once fought an energy being and lost....then came back later on, with the ability to manifest an aura that let him smack the hell out of said being. He's also gotten new abilities in the middle of a fight when needed/useful, such as launching his claws out to drag Superman down to him.

by **mosc** » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:37 pm UTC

Doomsday is the laziest written villain ever. He's just a piece of walking plot direction too dumb to even understand it's own existence at the most fundamental of levels. Blindly capable of fulfilling whatever destruction is required with literally limitless capabilities checked only by the creature's own naivete. Even his name is a simple reflection of a characterless event rather than an entity...

...which after writing that does seem kinda badass.

by **Aikanaro** » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:22 am UTC

Yeah, he's less a character so much as a plot device/macguffin, really. Kinda like the Destroyer armor in Marvel. Side note, it'd be interesting to see a fight between him and Darwin in X-Men, who basically has the same power (rapid evolution), but much FASTER (and less brute-force-ey). Might be dull though, because in a fight vs. Hulk, Darwin's body basically decided the optimum way to survive the encounter.....was to not be there, and his body promptly teleported him away without him knowing it was about to happen.

by **Vash** » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:09 pm UTC

A character that is an incomprehensible, supernatural depiction of destruction itself? Sounds good to me.

by **more_people** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:47 am UTC

A friend of mine and I are having a debate about who would win between Superman and Dr Manhattan, and the internet isn't helping either of us, so I thought I would post it here and see what everyone had to say about the topic.

by **Endless Mike** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:48 pm UTC

Dr. Manhattan can basically make Superman unexist if he so desires. Superman can punch him hard and maybe zap him with lasers.

by **SecondTalon** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:47 pm UTC

Yeah, but Doc Manhattan has to give a fuck first. And he's the poster boy for "Not a single fuck was given"

Buuutt... what the hell is Superman going to do to him to stop him? Jack shit. Like asking if a rottweiler could take out a tank controlled by an AI - will the tank even notice? Will the dog break it's teeth on the tank? Hard to say if there's going to be a winner at all, but if there is the choice is pretty much assured, outside of some random fuckery (Superman/Ozzy teamup, someone opens the tank hatch and throws the dog in there and it somehow unplugs the AI)

by **Endless Mike** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:34 pm UTC

Yeah, but then you have to question what Dr. Manhattan would do to get Superman to attack him, at which point, he probably wouldn't, and at worst would give him a finger-wagging for helping the US kill soldiers or whatever. It's a fight that would probably never happen, but if it did, the outcome is pretty easy to figure out.

by **more_people** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:14 am UTC

The only thing that can harm Superman is Kryptonite which means that Dr Manhattan can't use his powers on Superman. And if Dr Manhattan were to kill Superman, he would come back to life due to the energy provide by the yellow sun. If Dr Manhattan decided to transform the yellow sun into something else then he will be killing thousands of living things that need the sun to survive including humans. Dr Manhattan can't beat Superman without performing genocide while Superman Can beat Dr Manhattan without harming another living soul. That was the point I was trying to make with my friend but he wouldn't consede. That was why I brought this topic here.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:19 am UTC

more_people wrote:The only thing that can harm Superman is Kryptonite

and magic. And being punched really hard. And having his anatomy disassembled atom by atom.

So.. uh.. yeah. Manhattan could literally take him apart in seconds and there's isn't a damned thing the Big Blue Boyscout could do.

You are.. completely wrong in your premise and thus your conclusions. It's not even a contest.

by **Belial** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:20 am UTC

Nevermind that, with control of the subatomic structure of his surroundings, manhattan can just make kryptonite out of whatever's nearby. By wanting it. Note: supes' bloodstream counts as "whatever's nearby". And then, once dead, teleport him to the nearest binary red giant system and leave him in orbit.

If he wanted to. Which he probably wouldn't. Because why, really.

Meanwhile, superman can do...nothing of consequence to manhattan.

Moore wrote manhattan as a study in what near-omnipotence does to the human mind. It's really not surprising that he pretty much wins every hypothetical battle against everyone except maybe one of the Endless.

by **Diadem** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:48 pm UTC

I think Dr. Manhattan is limited by having a human mind. That is perhaps his only limit, but it is still a big one. He can't do things faster than he can think, nor can he do things he can't think of. Characters with superhuman speed might be able to stay out of his clutches, simply by moving faster than he can keep up. Or being in more places at once, pick your desired power. Though destroying him seems to be another matter.

He also does not seem to have control over time itself, he can only see it. So a timetravelling character could conceivably take him out.

by **SecondTalon** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:35 pm UTC

A time manipulator could get the drop on him, yes. Take him out?

How? He's already proven that he can reassemble himself from a complete disintegration, and can now do it who knows how quickly as he seemed to just wait for a dramatic moment to reveal that he'd survived the second one.

Short of Clockstoppper shenanigans, I'm not certain there's a way to stop Manhattan. Not physically at least, and not via a telepathic attack either. Psychology, though... that'd be how you'd have to do it, and it'd be trickier to do post Watchmen.

by **Belial** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:24 pm UTC

How? He's already proven that he can reassemble himself from a complete disintegration, and can now do it who knows how quickly as he seemed to just wait for a dramatic moment to reveal that he'd survived the second one.

Ace him before he develops all the nifty powers.

Presumably using a brick.

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