[M] Wizardry Mafia 2.5 - Game Over! Town Wins!

[Adacore]

Yeah - the reason I held off on my second casting after I got the first results was because I was hoping someone else would post some results so I could see if they were the same as mine or not. If everyone was just going to get identical echoes then there was no point using my feat to hear the same thing again.

It's worth bearing in mind that the scum knew this was going to happen (or, at least, that it could happen), so if they had any sense they've been disguising their posting style. Having said that, I think the realize/realise thing is unlikely to be conscious, and the style and creation of the code itself is similarly unlikely to be a diversion. It's actually pretty hard to consistently disguise your posting style. There are other players who make codes all the time, although the one that immediately springs to mind (Krong) isn't playing.

I would note, in this vein, that the speaker in my PMs does not capitalise his 'i's, and frequently begins sentences addressed to others with the format: "$name, ...." Does that fit anyone playing? I'm cautious about using this to confirm identity, because it would be pretty easy to fake, and stripping the capitalisation out of posts might help conceal your identity regardless.

[dotproduct]

I have no idea where my Alter Alignment has gotten to, anyway.

John Citizen didn't have any alter alignment spells.
Adacore, which of the earlier AEs was yours?

[Adacore]

My first was one of the two cast at 02:26 UTC immediately before the two arcane voices, the second was the one at 04:11 UTC, after Lataro's codebook post (although I sent it in before that).

Lataro's was at Day-start, one of the ones cast at the same time as my first was presumably from one of the arcane voice users. I would hazard a guess that the other arcane voice user cast theirs at Day-start using a silent spell feat (probably a Diviner, since they get silent spell for free). Arcane Voice makes sense for a diviner too - you can use it to give your divination (cop) results without revealing your role.

[mpolo]

I'm a little confused by the whole "order of actions" thing. Because there were two AV's reported cast at (approximately) the same time, and one of them is responding to the other. Or at least it seems that way because of when the effects hit. So there seems to have been some sort of cooperation involved in these things.


Am I correct in my understanding that "Disrupt Magic" doesn't affect active buffs/debuffs?

Because it occurs to me that at present, all the potions handed out would be beneficial/neutral to town, as long as the drinker waits until after he has cast his contingent of spells.

I might as well admit that I received one of those potions, and I'm kind of assuming that it's the Scry or Disrupt, since no one would have reason to trust me more than anybody else at the start.

[Adacore]

The order of actions only applies to spells which are queued for Day-start, or cast at Night. Spells cast during the Day (after the Day has started) are processed by the mods as soon as they get them, in the order submitted.

[ForAllOfThis]

That N0 post you made Adacore was really useful in helping me think about the choices so thanks for that.

I noticed that the spelling in the first AV set up to go out has an american spelling (neighborhood rather than neighbourhood). It's impossible to know if it was included for wine purposes as it seems like an unecessary word in the AV. Although it might contribute somewhat to Adacores theory.

The disrupt magic potion, if town, is only an ok idea IMO. Scum will be much less likely to drink any potions they get but scum could have done the same by sending out disrupt magic to unsuspecting town. Which would mean they have nothing to fear if they sent it. I think scrying is a much much better idea; can't harm town if given to them but should have scum really nervous. It is not a double edged sword unlike disrupt magic.

I'm going to trust Adacore and Lataro as town on their AE findings as it would be risky to fake AE only because real AEs would probably catch them out. Also, it would seem that scum attempted to do that through the strange AV that claimed to have part of the code. I do think it rules out the possibility that Adacore is a sorcerer because he cast AE twice which seems like unlikely behaviour for a sorcerer.

I have my last university exam on thursday and this threads moving fast. Sorry if I fall behind but I'll do my best to keep posted.

[John Citizen]

I second FAOT that Adacore's spell choices post was useful. I'd have to say that Adacore is looking relatively townie at the moment. I can also confirm that dotproduct attempted to drain magic from me, with no result.

With the use of the language in PMs, I think that it can be a useful tool, although it isn't necessarily definitive - I'm fairly sure that I'm not the only one that uses real English. I won't defend any further due to the possibility of wine.

I note that Lataro's list of codewords differs from those given by the second Arcane Voices claiming echoes. Obviously, only one is correct. I don't have much time at the moment, but comparing them to the first should identify which is correct. At the moment, I'm tending to trust Lataro as he has stated it openly, allowing it to be traced back to him.

[ElectricHaze]

Am I correct in my understanding that "Disrupt Magic" doesn't affect active buffs/debuffs?

Correct.

[mpolo]

The disrupt magic potion, if town, is only an ok idea IMO. Scum will be much less likely to drink any potions they get but scum could have done the same by sending out disrupt magic to unsuspecting town. Which would mean they have nothing to fear if they sent it. I think scrying is a much much better idea; can't harm town if given to them but should have scum really nervous. It is not a double edged sword unlike disrupt magic.

I think you misunderstand me. I have received a potion. We know that it is either Armor (40%), Disrupt Magic (20%), Scry (20%), Shield (20%). As I only posted a thank you to Adacore for the analysis of the spells during N0, I think it pretty unlikely that a town alchemist targeted me with a good potion (and so unlikely as to approach 0 that scum would have done so). Thus, the potion is most likely DisruptMagic (sent by scum, most likely) or Scry (sent by town, most likely).

If I were to use the magic I want to use today and then drink the potion, I end up unable to cast for the rest of the day (but keep any effects of already-cast spells), or I identify myself as town to the scrier. And neither is a particularly negative result, so I am inclined to see if I need/want to do something with my spells. Even if the one-phase block applies to the night, this is not a real limitation for me, I believe.

Or am I missing something that should be obvious?

[ForAllOfThis]

Or am I missing something that should be obvious?

That post was not specifically directed at you mpolo. Someone mentioned that it wouldn't be a bad idea for town to give disrupt magic. I was basically saying scrying potions are a more useful aggressive potion than disrupt magic for town alchemists to give. Scrying will have similar effects (scum won't cast scummy spells under it, a half role-block), will give town more information, lasts for an extra phase and has the added bonus of being harmless to other town. Disrupt magic on the other hand could harm town as equally as scum (especially late game). It could only be really useful if a single scum member was handed two potions at the same time and one was disrupt magic.

Looking back it was Weeks who made that argument with DBC following up with some agreement. Slight FoS towards those two for that.

[weiyaoli]

The Astral Echoes spell seems much more useful that I had thought; people seem to have gotten pretty long messages, I guess scum didn't split their messages up (or as much) as people speculated. I think people should probably use their Astral Echoes today (and perhaps not announce it if you do not get groundbreaking information until D2). It is likely that N1 the scum will try to change their codes and we would need to try and get lucky again and get the PM with the key (potentially they could send out many with an order to use one as well which would trip us up). I also see us getting less information as well from them.

[ElectricHaze]

“Zntvp zbhgu, fcrnx zl jbeqf!” - Someone has cast Arcane Voice.

A voice, seemingly from nowhere, speaks loudly and clearly:

I GOT THIS FROM ASTRAL ECHOES:
"Code Names to use:
1. Van - Wolverine
2. Dark Loink - Eaglestone
3. dotproduct - Barrel
4. cjdrum - Navigator
5. Adacore - Frosting
6. VectorZero - Mantis
7. Not A Raptor - Jolt
8. Misnomer - Aurora
9. PhoenixEnigma - Yamazuki
10. mpolo - Aspen
11. weiyaoli - Denali
12. DaBigCheez - Catapult
13. FAOT - Phoenix
14. llamanaru - Anvil
15. infina - Pepe
16. Weeks - Hermes
17. RoadieRich - Mojave
18. greenlover - Monaco
19. John Citizen - Opus
20. Lataro - Greenwich

Can someone else do the spells"

[DaBigCheez]

No Astral Echoes cast to go along with it, plus the dotproduct-as-Barrel thing combined with the wine-AV from earlier in the day...

Yeah, I totally believe that list

If you *actually* got that result from (silenced, for some reason?) Astral Echoes, and *actually* cast that Arcane Voice, come forward and say it publicly. Considering that list would bust the game wide open if it's accurate, you should have no problems sacrificing your anonymity to give town a near-guaranteed win, right?

For that matter, I would propose that whoever sent that should come forward and *volunteer to be lynched*. If you flip town, we'll know the list can be trusted, and you'll have essentially won the game for us, just needing us to hunt down sorcerors for the win.

So. Who's Spartacus?

[DaBigCheez]

EBWOP: Just to make it clear who's claimed what:

ASTRAL ECHOES CASTS: (And When/Who Claimed)
Time zones are Pacific because I fail at UTC.
Day Start: Lataro, 9:04pm
7:26pm, #1: Adacore through AV, 8:02pm
7:26pm, #2: AV, 8:29pm
9:11pm: Adacore, 9:33pm

ARCANE VOICE CASTS:
8:02pm: Claims one 7:26pm Echoes cast; AV claimed by Adacore
8:29pm: Claims other 7:26pm Echoes cast; AV unclaimed
JUST NOW: AV which has NO association with a prior Echoes cast, all prior Echoes casts having been accounted for

Not seeing much reason to believe it when all visible Echoes casts have been claimed already.

[DaBigCheez]

Further EBWOP: Obviously it could be a counterclaim to an earlier Echoes-claim, such as the one with the contradictory code to Lataro's, or to Lataro's itself, or to one of Adacore's. However, that would require an actual *counterclaim*, not just a "oh by the way I got this, which I only came out with after we'd been discussing Echoes results for a while and saying what we'd like to see and letting falseclaims go unchallenged".

[DaBigCheez]

Further further EBWOP (I *really* need to learn to actually read before I do these): My earlier post was wrong; Adacore did *not* claim one of the AVs. That leaves us with 5 (now 6) claims for 4 visible casts, 3 of the claims being through AVs.

[_infina_]

Spoiler:

i'll be damned for being so indecisive, but

dotproduct, if you're too worried about getting targeted, use preparedness + misdirect/spell armor, or ask for a dispel magic. Or, if someone carries panacea + warp spell we can help you, also, the alchemists can help if they have potions left

speaking of which, we should come up with codewords to use in thread for certain situations. not sure what to use, i suggest

disrupted=mana

...currently at a loss for other situations but this is important.

i might of been a bit rash to suggest going for evocation yesterday, plenty of strategy to work with protection and Re-Raise is just happiness

in case you want to go back to your protection set, i suggest

Shield
Bolster
Panacea
Alter Alignment/Spell Armor (because i think another shield is redundant)

Re-Raise
Re-Raise/Trap Card

Warp Spell/Preparedness - Misdirect

or something to that effect. you'd be our cleric.

if you decide to go Evocation anyway, your earlier set looks reasonable, although i'm not a fan of Drain Magic. i suggest:

Disrupt Magic
Magic Missile
Bolster
Alter Alignment/Dispel Magic

Consume Aura
Fireball

Extra Spell Slots/Disguise Spell/Preparedness - Alter Alignment

yeah, most of it is up in the air but i feel i should show some support your choice, anyway.

i believe we still have a day?

a few things

why PhoenixEnigma anyway? not saying it's a bad pick, just wondering about the choice

dotproduct, i believe you haven't sent anything yet? u should probably go evocation. more dependable. the best defense is offense, and John Citizen seems lacking in offense. then i go for the more defensive set to be more well-rounded. i think we should complement each other anyway, so tell me when you choose and what

i was considering Spectral Horror due to the priority. i like fitting Disrupt Magic in there somewhere too, insanely useful if scummy but that's what free Disguise Spell is for!

Not A Raptor, i advice against Spell Ward, it sucks. Shield is much much better. i see wut you did there with Transmute Spell, i guess it could work. the spells are great.

also we should share our spell choices/feats/queued spells for the day so we know what we're doing. we still have some hours left.

If this list is true, then Yamazuki (PE) was to throw people off because someone apparently was targeting Phoenix (FOAT) with a potion. In which case, FOAT should not drink a potion if they so received it.

DBC: Why wouldn't someone cast a silenced AE? Claiming it makes you a prime scum target, be it for wine or Smite Evil. Especially having AE and AV as cantrips, someone could theoretically hide themselves from scum while giving anonymous listener results.

[DaBigCheez]

_infina_: One wouldn't cast a silenced AE because we've already had four of them cast publicly, and we're fishing for more information. The cast being announced gives us some verification that a real Echoes result is being reported, whether anonymously or with one's vocal cords - as opposed to the current situation, wherein there's no proof that the Arcane Voice claiming player codenames is generated by anything other than the player list and random.org.

I mean heck, at least a cast Disguised as an Echoes by scum would make them use up a spell and a feat.

[mpolo]

What is the strategy on these magic missiles? Do we just ignore them? Wait until close to the end of day to try to get someone to do something about them (presuming that the people being pursued are worth saving)?

[_infina_]

DBC: While that could be true (it being made up with random.org), we need to check it for flaws. It may be as I have said, it could be a trick by sorcerers, or a deliberate red herring by scum. We need to test it, because if it is true, then we may have taken a major chunk of information away from the scum.

Another thing to think about: If you had seen an AE cast without results returned, would you have started to hunt down the person responsible for the cast to get results? What If they got something that was only a line or two long back that had nothing useful? Why would they give such info to town when they could lose the ability to get more?

I thought about this when I was picking my own spells, but decided against silent spell. It was interesting to me.

[DaBigCheez]

_infina_: If I'd seen an Echoes cast without any results claimed, I'd have assumed one of the following:
a) It didn't return a useful enough result for the player to feel it worth either exposing themself publicly or using a spellcast on AV.
b) It was a Disguised Spell, though I'd expect this to be followed by a falseclaimed message later.

So, no, I don't expect every Echoes cast to be claimed. I do, however, expect every claim to be linked to an Echoes cast. (Numerically, claims <= Echoes casts)

And, yes, of course it could be a sorc trick/scumherring (mmm, tasty), that was...exactly my point. If we received incontrovertible evidence that whoever posted the list was town, then we've got some delicious intel on our hands; the easiest way to prove beyond any doubt that the list was posted by town is to have someone come forward, claim the post, get lynched, and flip town. Even Revelation isn't as sure as that (in addition to using spellcasts/waiting through the night/having to have the caster claim the Rev the next day), Detect Good's not at all reliable, and 1 townie is a small price to pay for this kind of info - *especially* on a D1 lynch where the odds of getting anything useful done in terms of lynching an actual scum are terrible.

Yes, we *could* lynch one of the proposed scum on the list. This would give the following results:
a) Hits town: We know list is false, at the cost of a townie.
b) Hits scum: The rest of list is unconfirmed, as it may have been generated by a sorc and randomly gotten a scum for that result. (Especially leaning towards the possibility of a scumgen list due to the consistency on dotproduct's results.) We have lynched a scum, but gained no reliable info on the rest of scum.

If the list-poster instead steps forward and is lynched, the following results are possible:
a) Lynched player is town: We know the list is true, at the cost of a townie.
b) Lynched player is scum: Uhhhhhhh...wth? More realistically:
b1) Nobody steps forward to claim the list: We know the list is untrustworthy, and can abandon following the list in favor of a randomlynch.

In other words, lynching based on the list to try and confirm it would either 1) kill a townie because the list is fake, or 2) be effectively a random lynch. Whereas having someone step forward and be confirmed would either 1) kill a townie and confirm the list, blowing the game wide open, or 2) let us lynch randomly instead, because there's no way scum is going to falseclaim that and voluntarily get lynched.

Whether the list is false or true, I prefer the options with it is accepted that someone should step forward and claim it - if nobody claims, I'll take that as confirmation the list is a load of crap, and ignore it.

Make sense?

[_infina_]

Test the list using other AE results. Get them as decoded as we can, and then look to see if stuff makes sense. Testing via lynching is not the idea I was working towards. You seem to be pushing really hard for someone to step forward an make themselves a target for scum.

[DaBigCheez]

...how would voluntarily getting lynched make someone a target for scum? They'd be *dead*. :/

And I was not advocating "Hey, c'mon, step right up, let's lynch someone RIGHT THE HELL NOW!" Obviously we'd want to get as many AE casts out there as possible to try and scoop up all the N0 PMs, but *any* echoes casts or claims can potentially be faked - especially since scum *by definition* knows what PMs were sent, and could almost certainly lie by telling a partial truth, or just muddying the waters around which set of results is true (as with the Feats results). And if people are claiming to have results from silent-cast AE, well, results from a spell we *can't even prove was cast* aren't exactly confirmation carved into stone tablets by the mighty hand of our dark master ElectricHaze.

A townie stepping forward, claiming that player list, and then being lynched to uncontestably prove themselves as townie is the only way I can think of to 100% verify that list as non-wine. Detect Good can be fooled, Revelation can be fooled (unless they flip non-Apprentice, but honestly, odds are pretty good scum would just NK them and we'd have wasted a spell for no gain), lynch results can't - and this is the kind of thing where, if we're sure it's right, it practically wins the game for us. I'm advocating testing via lynch because it's the only way to be sure, and *being* sure about this list is much, MUCH more valuable than the life of one townie. I think this is true even if that townie is the damn High Wizard.

The other reason I'm pushing so hard for someone to come forward? I'm about 85% sure that the list is total bull, and so when nobody steps forward to claim it, we can accept that it was just a fakeout, then move on with normal D1 tactics and other AE reports that I might actually believe, and stand at least some chance of getting scum.

DISCLAIMER: I do not think that players being associated with scum codenames on that list means those players are verified town if the list is crap, for the same reason I don't think lynching based on the list and hitting scum would verify the list as true: it could have been generated randomly, either for exactly that reason by scum, or by a sorc who has no idea what anyone else is anyway.

[DaBigCheez]

EBWOP with some further thoughts:

An Arcane Echoes cast which revealed a reference to another player that did not use any of the codewords in the list would disprove the list.
An Arcane Echoes cast which somehow revealed every other player being referenced, and using only those codewords, would still not confirm the list: it could have been put forth by a scum who randomly shuffled the names.

We can disconfirm the list easily enough, but unless someone's got a cunning plan I haven't thought of, we can't confirm it without someone claiming that AV, and I don't see a way to confirm it *for sure* aside from lynching that player.

Considering that the status quo is "consider the list to be false", and someone coming forward would confirm it, I don't see how the "if you posted that, step forward" is harmful.

All someone coming forward could do is confirm the list - obviously a townie won't step forward and claim it if scum posted the list. Nobody would be in danger of a lynch from this unless they're doing it to confirm 4 scum on D1 - the danger of mislynching on D1 to try and confirm the list, and the list remaining unconfirmed, simply is not there.

Someone stepping forward and claiming that list as true would help town massively. The need to then lynch that person is in order to prevent the evil-twin "Only the real one would say to shoot us both, so I can let you live!" which would lead to gallons of wine everywhere. It would prove, without question, that it wasn't a scum falseclaim.

[Adacore]

While it would be great if that list is genuine, I really don't think it is. This strikes me as the scum HW's use of arcane voice for the day - probably those are the real codenames, but shuffled randomly. Or, more likely, semi-randomly - I find it suspicious that the players listed as scum are: JC, who was under suspicion; dotproduct, who had that whole thing earlier; NaR, who is being followed by two (apparent) magic missiles*; and greenlover. Two people under suspicion and one being followed by a MM so they'll die purely through inaction? That just seems too convenient for me - especially since if the list is fake, they'll want as many people on it as possible killed today, since it'll be proven fake when the death results are in tomorrow. And my meta-sense is telling me the mods would never actually let us have the player name codebook from Astral Echoes.

I don't really see the sorcs using a spell-cast on this - they want the scum dead almost as much as townies do, there's no upside for a sorc in posting red herrings when we're scum-hunting (as opposed to sorc-hunting), plus any Astral Echoes with other codenames would show that list to be wrong.

DBC's plan is pretty sensible - if someone comes forward and claims the list, then we can lynch them - if they're town, that's almost a full list of scum confirmed, and we've only got to find the sorcs. That's a trade any town player should be not only willing, but positively eager to make. It wouldn't have worked in Wizardry 2.0, because of Geas, but I don't think there are any post-controlling powers in this one, right?

[Adacore]

EBWOP: That asterisk after NaR's line was going to link in to a highly paranoid discussion of possible WIFOM in the list (listing NaR in an obviously fake list, so that town would protect him from the magic missiles), but I realised it didn't make much sense and deleted it.

[DaBigCheez]

While it would be great if that list is genuine, I really don't think it is. This strikes me as the scum HW's use of arcane voice for the day - probably those are the real codenames, but shuffled randomly...And my meta-sense is telling me the mods would never actually let us have the player name codebook from Astral Echoes.
...
DBC's plan is pretty sensible - if someone comes forward and claims the list, then we can lynch them - if they're town, that's almost a full list of scum confirmed, and we've only got to find the sorcs. That's a trade any town player should be not only willing, but positively eager to make. It wouldn't have worked in Wizardry 2.0, because of Geas, but I don't think there are any post-controlling powers in this one, right?

^

No post-controlling powers in this one, and this pretty much sums up what I was saying more succinctly. I am bad at TL;DR.
Honestly, asking for someone to step forward is just "calling scum's bluff" as much as anything else. If someone does step forward, I will be *ecstatic* that we'll turn out to have a confirmed list of scum, but I'm pretty much expecting to say "Nobody? Nobody at all? Bueller?" and move on.

[Misnomer]

Right, rushed for time (as always these days...) but should be able to post more in the morning. For now, some quick contributions.

1) I'd be stunned if that list was accurate - it seems almost too good to be true, especially given the lack of spellcats with it (as infina said, silencing it wouldn't make sense).
2) Re: UK english - I know FAOT is also a British-English speaker (for the record, so am I, but obviously I deny sending that message).
3) That said, we should bear in mind that scum may alter their language style in their private PMs, seeing as listening abilities exist. I know that's what I did with my alt-account in Assassins' Creed.

Sorry for briefness, but I need to sleep. More to come later...

[DaBigCheez]

1) I'd be stunned if that list was accurate - it seems almost too good to be true, especially given the lack of spellcats with it (as infina said, silencing it wouldn't make sense).

Just to set the record straight for later: that was me, not _infina_

DBC: Why wouldn't someone cast a silenced AE? Claiming it makes you a prime scum target, be it for wine or Smite Evil. Especially having AE and AV as cantrips, someone could theoretically hide themselves from scum while giving anonymous listener results.

[Misnomer]

1) I'd be stunned if that list was accurate - it seems almost too good to be true, especially given the lack of spellcats with it (as infina said, silencing it wouldn't make sense).

Just to set the record straight for later: that was me, not _infina_

DBC: Why wouldn't someone cast a silenced AE? Claiming it makes you a prime scum target, be it for wine or Smite Evil. Especially having AE and AV as cantrips, someone could theoretically hide themselves from scum while giving anonymous listener results.

Whoops, my apologies - I definitely need sleep.

[ForAllOfThis]

There seems to be a lot of attention towards a fake list. I think we can take some extremely simple assumptions to prove it was fake:

1) Astral Echoes was not cast.
2) Astral Voice was used to share it.

As far as I am concerned case closed.

I believe that was the argument you were trying to make DBC. I don't know why that took three pages worth of writing to say? Or why you think testing it under any circumstances is going ot be particularly beneficial for town? The latter argument also applies to you infina. I don't think that we should go near it with a hundred foot stick, because it will only cause trouble.

I'd like to point out that I think even considering testing it is scummy, but there were some points that particularly pinged me in the argument about it. Quick analysis on this back and forth before I head to bed I think:

@DBC: I think you were making the case that if town steps forward and claims then it would be ok to lynch that townie (to confirm them). You seem to neglect the fact that we are dealing with wine. Lynching the claimer confirms nothing at all because scum could have faked the list in the PMs or had multiple lists. So actually your advocating lynching whoever claims to have posted it, could result in a fake-confirming which would really screw us up. There are subtle spillages of wine in your posts (for example):

I'm about 85% sure that the list is total bull, and so when nobody steps forward to claim it, we can accept that it was just a fakeout, then move on with normal D1 tactics and other AE reports that I might actually believe, and stand at least some chance of getting scum.

Like the 85% sure that the list is bull? I find myself wondering why you would say that. Overall though I think your intentions were good but severely misguided by bad logic. Although your faulty logic (with regards to the disrupt magic potion & weeks at the start) and now this is starting to concern me.

@_infina_: See my above assumuptions as proof it is fake. Testing this in any capacity will only result in wasting of attention, spells and lynches. Advocating to use spells or lynches to test is particularly bad. There is no true way to confirm it, and attempting to encourage people to test it is the scummiest thing so far so FoS: _infina_.

Ninja-ed: 1) I do use British spellings, it is no secret and 2) although adacore has agreed with DBC's idea, I still think it is a bad one.

[Lataro]

I'm pretty much agreeing here that that list isn't useful really. Something that *MASSIVELY* useful if true is not something that should be claimed in an AV, the person presenting it should reveal themselves openly, IMO.

I believe it is almost without a doubt pure wine.

I purpose we completely ignore it, and don't consider anyone's position on it as more or less likely to be town or scum.

I don't suppose there are any more AE's out there that people could cast? I really don't see AE being all that useful D2, since if the scum have any sense they'll enact better countermeasures. I personally took and used AE since the general opinion was, "If the scum know about it, it'll be useless" and decided to trade on the double bluff there.

[DaBigCheez]

Response to FAOT (spoilered for length):

Spoiler:

There seems to be a lot of attention towards a fake list. I think we can take some extremely simple assumptions to prove it was fake:

1) Astral Echoes was not cast.
2) Astral Voice was used to share it.

As far as I am concerned case closed.

I believe that was the argument you were trying to make DBC.

More or less, yeah - if someone were to step forward and claim it, that would confirm it (with a silent-cast Echoes for some reason, or somesuch). When that doesn't happen, we can discard the list.

I don't know why that took three pages worth of writing to say? Or why you think testing it under any circumstances is going ot be particularly beneficial for town?

I'm verbose, especially when I get excitable, and the start of the game and having *actual information* to work with D1 has me revved up, even if half of it's wine.

As for testing it, I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The only "test" I've proposed would be a townie flat-out confirming they posted it; when I was talking about "trying a lynch according to it and seeing how it goes", that was to pre-emptively rebut any arguments that that would be a good method of trying to confirm/disconfirm it.

@DBC: I think you were making the case that if town steps forward and claims then it would be ok to lynch that townie (to confirm them). You seem to neglect the fact that we are dealing with wine. Lynching the claimer confirms nothing at all because scum could have faked the list in the PMs or had multiple lists. So actually your advocating lynching whoever claims to have posted it, could result in a fake-confirming which would really screw us up.

Yeah...and how would they have determined which list to *actually* use? Through PMs. It's not turtles all the way down, you know - if they were going to have multiple fake lists, they'd still have to have one PM which told them which list to use. It's true that the claimer flipping town wouldn't 100% confirm the list as true, since they *could* have set up a false-list PM, but I feel based on the facts that: (a) they can't avoid PM-detection by spamming false lists, since the master PM could still be intercepted; (b) the Echoes already posted seem to use relatively consistent codewords, and not be pure spam; and (c) simplicity, I'd be willing to at least act on it if it was confirmed.

There are subtle spillages of wine in your posts...[like] the 85% sure that the list is bull? I find myself wondering why you would say that. Overall though I think your intentions were good but severely misguided by bad logic. Although your faulty logic (with regards to the disrupt magic potion & weeks at the start) and now this is starting to concern me.

"85% sure the list is bull" was to clarify that I wasn't expecting the list to be proven (proven as a message that was intercepted by a townie's Echoes, that is, not proven as true and accurate); I was mostly saying that, since it is verifiable, the fact that it is *not* being verified can be taken as proof that it's false, since any townie would be happy to make that trade. I know I would, even with the possibility of repeated lists as a red herring.

As far as faulty logic...as mentioned before, I got overexcited, and didn't check my info carefully before posting (casts being announced at night, what's told to players who receive potions). Will try to avoid this in the future, just feeling pumped about the game right now and thinking-out-loud somewhat as a result.

Aside from that...

Something that *MASSIVELY* useful if true is not something that should be claimed in an AV, the person presenting it should reveal themselves openly, IMO.

I believe it is almost without a doubt pure wine.

I purpose we completely ignore it

Yep, that was pretty much my thought too, just got sidetracked musing about hypotheticals if it wasn't wine. I'll drop it now, since it sounds like we're all agreeing it's useless anyway and I seem to have just started up a sideshow from it. Don't think doing so was playing *right* into their hands, but it shouldn't distract us any longer.

[ForAllOfThis]

I almost cringed at "spoilered for length", I'll be honest. The only point worth mentioning in response is that there are several ways I could think of getting around the PM situation. I won't mention them as they can only benefit scum. Looking at peoples positions on wine, as Lataro mentioned, is the only good thing we can extract from it.

[Aardvarki]

"Syvpx n fjvgpu naq bcra zl guveq rlr!" - Someone has cast Detect Magic.

[Aardvarki]

”Rirel oerngu lbh gnxr, rirel zbir lbh znxr!” - Someone has cast Scrying.

[_infina_]

”Rirel oerngu lbh gnxr, rirel zbir lbh znxr!” - Someone has cast Scrying.

The Police, really? You had to remind me of this.

[Not A Raptor]

You don't need to confirm or deny the codelist of people. Because I'm coming forward and telling you that it's complete garbage. Scum's just muddying the waters right now.

However, we do know this: The codenames that we know relate to scum in that code list are most likely given to either townies or sorcerers. Search elsewhere for the scum. Now, who other than those given scum codewords in the false list, is under suspicion?

Also, I'm getting rather nervous about the magic missile(s?) following me.

[dotproduct]

Wait, you're a non-raptor that gets nervous?



As far an I can find, there have been zero votes cast.
Are you worried someone will get to 11 before a player who would help you does help you?


Since I can't think of anything else to do right now, rolespec:

5 good guys, 2 sorcs
scum have 1 of each role

[Adacore]

Since I can't think of anything else to do right now, rolespec:

5 good guys, 2 sorcs
scum have 1 of each role

Err... I think you're a little behind the times. We know for sure (well, I'm 99% certain) that scum have two alchemists and according to DBC they have two specialists (I'm still not sure where that information was, though). So there are no good apprentices or novices, if that's correct.