alternative mathematics

For the discussion of math. Duh.

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314man
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby 314man » Wed May 25, 2011 6:29 pm UTC

Dopefish wrote:(That said, a link to his full work in Serbian has been provided, so perhaps if there's any capable Serbian speaking mathematicians around they could look it over and let us know if there's anything to it.)


I might get around to it eventually.

kumarevo wrote:The current mathematics: know the line only in this form
Image

does not recognize these forms of

Image


I think his theorems are out to solve this problem (if you look back at his older post, the first image is of regular lines, while the second is of lines that diverges into 2 or more lines). Which I think isn't really a problem with the mathematics we know now. It just might not look nice, and they're not functions.

I don't know if it's proper to use union like this, but wouldn't something like (y = x^2) U (y = x, x < 1) be an example of diverging curves? Or y = +-x^.5 - x^2? Or we can just treat those curves as separate non-diverging curves and just use what we know on both of them.
Really we already do that in a lot of modern mathematics, e.g. finding the intersect of two lines, finding the area between curves.

Also my thoughts on the "Natural line": It seems rather shaky. Essentially you're saying a line only has 2 points, the starting point and the end point. Say you have 2 lines, AB and BC, then you can connect them to make AC. Now is AC a natural line? If yes, that means I can cut down a natural line into smaller natural lines (If AC can be cut down to AB, AB can be cut down into something smaller). Basically then I can keep cutting down on the natural line until I have only the point A. That means within any natural line, there are an infinte number of points, which describes a regular line, and also runs counter to your axiom. So if AC is not a natural line, is it not possible to produce the line AC without the existence of point B?

Anyways, I don't think I'm willing to try to understand your 'alternative math' until I see at least one application of it. Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?

EDIT: Just fixed up the quote to have the images
Last edited by 314man on Thu May 26, 2011 7:00 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gorcee » Wed May 25, 2011 6:31 pm UTC

314man wrote:Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?


Or, even one that current math can?

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Kurushimi » Wed May 25, 2011 7:07 pm UTC

I will speak with very basic English. Kumavero, you speak bad English. Learn English. Post again later.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby cphite » Wed May 25, 2011 8:24 pm UTC

So basically he's just adding a shape made of one or more lines to another shape made of one or more lines.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Ddanndt » Wed May 25, 2011 8:31 pm UTC

Kurushimi wrote:I will speak with very basic English. Kumavero, you speak bad English. Learn English. Post again later.
Seriously I would rep you if it was possible to :D
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby eSOANEM » Wed May 25, 2011 9:42 pm UTC

314man wrote:Anyways, I don't think I'm willing to try to understand your 'alternative math' until I see at least one application of it. Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?


I'm not sure that asking for an application is reasonable. If Kumarevo has discovered something new (which I currently think is unlikely although having a better translation would help) it's quite possible that he hasn't yet found an application. Quite a lot of mathematical discoveries didn't have uses when first discovered so it's probably unreasonable to expect this to have them (although a solution to the problem posed in his other, now locked, topic could be useful).
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Meem1029 » Wed May 25, 2011 11:06 pm UTC

I don't think 314man is asking for a real world application. I think he's asking for Kumarevo to fulfill his claim that his new math could solve things that current math can't, which is definitely has not been fulfilled by the information posted so far.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby achan1058 » Thu May 26, 2011 1:04 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
314man wrote:Anyways, I don't think I'm willing to try to understand your 'alternative math' until I see at least one application of it. Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?


I'm not sure that asking for an application is reasonable. If Kumarevo has discovered something new (which I currently think is unlikely although having a better translation would help) it's quite possible that he hasn't yet found an application. Quite a lot of mathematical discoveries didn't have uses when first discovered so it's probably unreasonable to expect this to have them (although a solution to the problem posed in his other, now locked, topic could be useful).
By application, it could be theoretical applications, or even just some elegant theorems. Truth is though, if there is beauty here, I fail to see it under this mess. Anyways, all this diagrams somehow reminds me of graph theory.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby skeptical scientist » Thu May 26, 2011 1:35 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
314man wrote:Anyways, I don't think I'm willing to try to understand your 'alternative math' until I see at least one application of it. Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?


I'm not sure that asking for an application is reasonable. If Kumarevo has discovered something new (which I currently think is unlikely although having a better translation would help) it's quite possible that he hasn't yet found an application. Quite a lot of mathematical discoveries didn't have uses when first discovered so it's probably unreasonable to expect this to have them (although a solution to the problem posed in his other, now locked, topic could be useful).

As others have said, application could be pure theory (e.g. prove that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180º, or find the slope of the tangent line to a curve), and doesn't have to be a real-world application. But yes, asking for an application of this sort is completely reasonable, as Kumarevo's stuff is completely useless if it doesn't have any application.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Sizik » Thu May 26, 2011 6:47 am UTC

I just noticed that he edited his original posts to update/include more pictures. (And i just noticed that 314man was quoting this post. So much for reading comprehension.)


kumarevo wrote:The current mathematics: know the line only in this form
Image

does not recognize these forms of

Image
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby 314man » Thu May 26, 2011 7:15 am UTC

Yeah, I actually noticed he edits his posts for new information quite a lot. It's really easy to miss. And it's especially annoying if it's rather important piece of information.
I figured what I quoted was pretty important since now we know what kind of problem he's trying to solve with his alternate math. And it gives a better discussion than trying to understand his half-gibberish (it's also half-gibberish in serbian which is why I'm rather reluctant to translate more)

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 26, 2011 7:39 am UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
314man wrote:Anyways, I don't think I'm willing to try to understand your 'alternative math' until I see at least one application of it. Can you provide a problem that your alternative math can solve that current math cannot?


I'm not sure that asking for an application is reasonable. If Kumarevo has discovered something new (which I currently think is unlikely although having a better translation would help) it's quite possible that he hasn't yet found an application. Quite a lot of mathematical discoveries didn't have uses when first discovered so it's probably unreasonable to expect this to have them (although a solution to the problem posed in his other, now locked, topic could be useful).

As others have said, application could be pure theory (e.g. prove that the sum of the angles of a triangle is 180º, or find the slope of the tangent line to a curve), and doesn't have to be a real-world application. But yes, asking for an application of this sort is completely reasonable, as Kumarevo's stuff is completely useless if it doesn't have any application.


Ok, I misunderstood. If you're including theorems (that we can understand), then I think it is perfectly reasonable.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby radams » Thu May 26, 2011 5:16 pm UTC

I think he's trying to do the geometry of a space where there's a smallest fundamental unit of distance: so there's a smallest possible line segment that cannot be split, and only a finite number of points on any line segment. Maybe he thinks physical space is like this.

He seems to think "the current mathematics" does not "recognise" complex curves, forked lines, etc., by which I assume he means we can't give a definition for the length of such a curve. He's going to show us how to do it, based on the fact that these curves must all be built out of a finite number of these unit line segments.

If I'm right, then kumarevo, I have a question for you. Let AB and BC be two natural alongs, at right angles to one another. Can I construct a line segment joining A to C? If so, what is its length?

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby kumarevo » Thu May 26, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

Ddanndt wrote:Or maybe if he showed us a simple application of his maths in everyday life ( or even how to solve the original problem he posted in his earlier closed thread) maybe people would understand.


when you get to a gap of numbers and addition, you will find a solution,

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gorcee » Thu May 26, 2011 6:34 pm UTC

kumarevo wrote:
Ddanndt wrote:Or maybe if he showed us a simple application of his maths in everyday life ( or even how to solve the original problem he posted in his earlier closed thread) maybe people would understand.


when you get to a gap of numbers and addition, you will find a solution,


No, screw that. You will show a solution.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 26, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

What gaps in addition?
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Kurushimi » Thu May 26, 2011 6:42 pm UTC

gorcee wrote:
kumarevo wrote:
Ddanndt wrote:Or maybe if he showed us a simple application of his maths in everyday life ( or even how to solve the original problem he posted in his earlier closed thread) maybe people would understand.


when you get to a gap of numbers and addition, you will find a solution,


No, screw that. You will show a solution.


I don't think he meant for us to find an application.I think he meant that the application is finding a solution in a gap of numbers and addition.

Still completely incomprehensible though.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby kumarevo » Thu May 26, 2011 7:06 pm UTC

to see how much you know the current math
shall demonstrate (pictured) to be: triangle, quadrilateral,..... or to have 180 °, 360 °,....
mmm1.png
mmm1.png (4.3 KiB) Viewed 3783 times



THEOREM: the basic set of natural numbers is copied to another set of

q8.png
q8.png (15.36 KiB) Viewed 3461 times

Ca N;;A=3,4,6,3 - A={3,3,4,6}
Cb N;;A=5,8,0 - A={0,5,8}
Cc N;;45-45
Cd ...
MS.5-copy numbers
Last edited by kumarevo on Sat May 28, 2011 10:39 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby themandotcom » Thu May 26, 2011 7:18 pm UTC

kumarevo wrote:33(0,1,2,3,+33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=x(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
I see that you do not think mathematically and I will solve the task I have given you.here are given the numbers of different scales of natural numbers, converting them to the
33(0,1,2,3)=17(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=25(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
17(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)+25(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)=44(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)


What does that even MEAN? Explain in English, not in broken English or Croatian.
e^pi*i=WHAT??

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Sizik » Thu May 26, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

themandotcom wrote:
kumarevo wrote:33(0,1,2,3,+33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=x(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
I see that you do not think mathematically and I will solve the task I have given you.here are given the numbers of different scales of natural numbers, converting them to the
33(0,1,2,3)=17(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=25(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
17(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)+25(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)=44(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)


What does that even MEAN? Explain in English, not in broken English or Croatian.


In regular math notation:
334 + 336 = x8
334 = 178
336 = 258
178 + 258 = 448

Edit: I know this because of his previous post, where he introduces the notation:
Spoiler:
kumarevo wrote:[/size]
Theorem- points along (infinite) ABCD .... replace the signs (0), (0.1), (0,1,2), (0,1,2,3 ),...

m7.png


Ca N(0)={0,00,000,0000,...}
Cb N(0,1)={0,1,10,11,100,101,...}
Cc N(0,1,2)={0,1,2,10,11,12,100,...}
....
Cj N(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9)={0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,...}
....
MS.E-number along

MS.F-basic set natural number-N

task for thought- 33(0,1,2,3)+33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=x(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
original text (Serbian)-http://hotfile.com/dl/118801130/38bae55/MS.math.pdf.html
Last edited by Sizik on Thu May 26, 2011 7:54 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Xanthir » Thu May 26, 2011 7:53 pm UTC

Ah, thank god. *That* actually makes some sense. Now I just wonder what's so important about base conversions that we need confusing new notation.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 26, 2011 8:07 pm UTC

Okay, so
33(0,1,2,3)+33(0,1,2,3,4,5)=44(0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7)
?

That's nothing new. I fiddled around with different bases in middle school, using regular old standard math.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gorcee » Thu May 26, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

kumarevo wrote:I see that you do not think mathematically and I will solve the task I have given you.


Sweet, not only is he incomprehensible, but he's also a jerk!

Xanthir wrote:Ah, thank god. *That* actually makes some sense. Now I just wonder what's so important about base conversions that we need confusing new notation.


I think what he's trying to get at is that you can write a number in a non-consistent base? I don't know.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby lightvector » Fri May 27, 2011 12:25 am UTC

This is purely speculation, so please correct me if I'm wrong. It is only my best guess in interpreting what you mean.

If you are using an automatic translation tool, you seriously should stop. Find an actual person who knows both languages to translate for you, it will help a lot.

kumarevo wrote:The current mathematics: know the line only in this form
Image

does not recognize these forms of

Image


I'm guessing you've been taught that the things in the second picture are not functions, so you think that mathematics doesn't handle them? But these sorts of things are handled by current mathematics, just not as functions. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivalued_function
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_graph_theory

kumarevo wrote:
theorem:number has the opposite point

Image


Ca Number 4=(s.0,1,2,3,4) , 0-opposite starting number , 4-opposite last number

MS.4 - opposite points number

MS.5 - opposite starting point number

MS.6 -opposite last point number


The current mathematics: does not know the opposite points number, opposite starting point number,opposite last point number


Yes the current mathematics does. In this specific case, define f(x) = 4-x. Then if x is the number, then f(x) is the opposite number. In general, for a sequence of consecutive natural numbers (a, a+1, a+2, ... a+n), define f(x) = 2a + n - x. Then f(x) is the opposite number to x with respect to this sequence.

kumarevo wrote:THEOREM: the basic set of natural numbers is copied to another set of

Ca N;;A=3,4,6,3 - A={3,3,4,6}
Cb N;;A=5,8,0, - A={0,5,8}
Cx ....
MS.copy numbers

The current mathematics: does not know the points copy number


I assume that by "copy number" what you are saying is that when you put the numbers into a set, you can no longer tell how they were originally ordered. Of course, that's how a set works. But current mathematics does provide a solution. Use a sequence or a function instead. For instance, the sequence [imath]a_0 = 5, a_1 = 8, a_2 = 0[/imath]. Or you can use a function, [imath]f: \{0,1,2\} \rightarrow Z[/imath] defined by [imath]f(0) = 5, \; f(1) = 8, \; f(2) = 0[/imath]. Or a set of ordered pairs [imath]\{(0,5),(1,8),(2,0)\}[/imath]. These all express the same concept within current mathematics, and in some formalizations, are actually all the same thing.

My overall impression is that you don't know what current mathematics is capable of. The solution is easy. Learn more basic math (a lot more) before you claim that you've invented something new.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Ddanndt » Fri May 27, 2011 3:41 pm UTC

kumarevo wrote:
Two axiom of mathematics - M.S. mathematics


MS.A-Natural along

MS.B-point


By the way what does "MS" mean?
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Thirty-one » Fri May 27, 2011 4:18 pm UTC

This thread is like waking up on the island.
Annoyed, getting worked up or bored by the post above? Help is here.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Thalagor » Fri May 27, 2011 9:20 pm UTC

Posting in epic thread.
*Popcorn*

And to add to the discussion: I don't understand anything either. :mrgreen:

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gmalivuk » Fri May 27, 2011 9:41 pm UTC

Well done. You've managed to contribute even less to this thread than any of the people actually trying to talk about math, including the OP.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Thalagor » Fri May 27, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Well done. You've managed to contribute even less to this thread than any of the people actually trying to talk about math, including the OP.


Now don't be harsh. :(
Everything I understand has already been said - I also think that OP want to create an elementary distance and build up lines from that. And from the lines he wants to create numbers. I fail to understand how this connects with his lines with separate branches though.

I have not really understood whether OP is reading the replies or not since his posts are incomprehensible and don't really answer our questions.

Edit: Can't someone tell him in serbian to ask someone fluent in english to translate?

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby B.Good » Fri May 27, 2011 11:58 pm UTC

Thalagor wrote:Edit: Can't someone tell him in serbian to ask someone fluent in english to translate?

Someone attempted that earlier in the thread (namely 314man and some of his friends/colleagues) and 314man said that Kumarevo's posts were only slightly less non-sensical in Serbian so that approach has not exactly been successful.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby 314man » Sat May 28, 2011 1:08 am UTC

Yup. His grammar in serbian is actually just as bad as you see it here in english. When my friend and I translated it, I got the words right (natural line instead of natural along), and I filled in some grammar holes. I'm actually still confused with "Capital letters for points, the small letters and symbols ()". Anyways he seems to understand english since he personal messaged me one of his axioms in serbian before anyone asked him in serbian.

Also, he's edited his original posts again...

themandotcom wrote:What does that even MEAN? Explain in English, not in broken English or Croatian.


You don't want to mix up croatian and serbian. Even though it's basically the same language, there's still a lot of hatred between the two countries and using them interchangeably will tick a lot of people off (I personally don't really mind though).

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Dason » Sat May 28, 2011 1:28 am UTC

Is it possible to take away his editing privileges? It's not like his posts make much sense anyways but with him editing every one of his posts every other day it's like he doesn't want anybody to understand...
double epsilon = -.0000001;

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby achan1058 » Sat May 28, 2011 2:46 am UTC

lightvector wrote:
kumarevo wrote:The current mathematics: know the line only in this form
Spoiler:
Image

does not recognize these forms of

Image


I'm guessing you've been taught that the things in the second picture are not functions, so you think that mathematics doesn't handle them? But these sorts of things are handled by current mathematics, just not as functions. For example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multivalued_function
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_graph_theory
Why be so complicated with all these advanced topics? Just write it as a function from R^2 --> {0,1}, or even a relation on R^2, or a set in C.

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby kumarevo » Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 am UTC

I've made the edit, whether it is good -gmalivuk ,skeptical scientist and other

theorem - in the set with two or more of the same numbers to make a different set of record numbers

Ca A={7,7,7} - 7f3 , 7 number , f-tag frequency ,3-as the number of times 7
Cb ...

MS.6 - re-set (frequency )

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby themandotcom » Sat May 28, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

Can a mod please lock this thread/ban the OP? I think its time.
e^pi*i=WHAT??

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby OverBored » Sat May 28, 2011 1:38 pm UTC

kumarevo wrote:
theorem - in the set with two or more of the same numbers to make a different set of record numbers

Ca A={7,7,7} - 7f3 , 7 number , f-tag frequency ,3-as the number of times 7
Cb ...

MS.6 - re-set (frequency )


So this would be a multiset then, with a way of writing down the number of times an element is repeated. It'd be a stretch to even call this a definition, let alone a theorem...
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby Dopefish » Sat May 28, 2011 2:03 pm UTC

themandotcom wrote:Can a mod please lock this thread/ban the OP? I think its time.


I don't think this is actually that bad. It's not like he's one of those people who claim to have found a simple proof of the riemann hypothesis that show up every now and then*, and after the mistake is pointed out he refuses to listen to reason. So far, apart from the terrible grammar English, I don't think he's done anything blatently wrong.

It seems like people have even been able to decipher his last few posts into normal math too, so perhaps we'll get to the point where something explicitly wrong is found, upon which we can gauge his response and mods can act appropriately, but for now imo it's probably easier to give him the benefit of the doubt and either ignore him or attempt to decipher his posts.


*= Unless he decides to claim that such a proof is possible in his 'alternative math', upon which he'd need to back it up awfully quick before smiting is due.

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gmalivuk
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby gmalivuk » Sat May 28, 2011 3:08 pm UTC

themandotcom wrote:Can a mod please lock this thread/ban the OP? I think its time.
You can feel free to stop reading it any time.
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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby achan1058 » Sat May 28, 2011 9:15 pm UTC

I thought it is not allowed to edit posts or use red the way he's doing though, or am I misinterpreting the forum rules?

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Re: alternative mathematics

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat May 28, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

achan1058 wrote:I thought it is not allowed to edit posts or use red the way he's doing though, or am I misinterpreting the forum rules?


I think he's being given a fair amount of leeway because of his difficulty expressing himself.
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