Avatar: The Last Hairbender & Legend of Korra

[Izawwlgood]

I think you're underestimating how unhinged she became. And how bad ass Katara is. Oh, and how hard it messed her up that Zuko wasn't just putting up a fight, but was pretty soundly kicking her ass.

[Xeio]

That's my contention: Sudden episodes of mental illness don't make you incapable of recognizing landmarks that are common knowledge. Plus, it's Sozin's Comet Spectacular. She breathed fire out her ears. Zuko melted ice from beneath the water didn't he? If so then Azula could've melted the ice block even if Katara did get her.

What makes you think she could make the rational and logical strategic choices at all, let alone split second in a fight? She dismissed all her servants because she though they were out to get her!

This wasn't exactly sudden either, it was a long buildup since The Boiling Rock.

[Jesse]

The Fire Nation was all about strength, and power, right? Ozai had lost his firebending, and therefore his power. You really think the people would ever respect him as a ruler again?

[Ginger]

I think you're underestimating how unhinged she became. And how bad ass Katara is. Oh, and how hard it messed her up that Zuko wasn't just putting up a fight, but was pretty soundly kicking her ass.

Yeah, probably. I like the character. I'm not saying Katara sucked either, mind you. I just think the ice block-plus-chains combo was kind of stupid given that her Firebending skills were still awesome, unhinged or not. All that uncontrolled rage probably would've helped at least a little.

What makes you think she could make the rational and logical strategic choices at all, let alone split second in a fight? She dismissed all her servants because she though they were out to get her!

This wasn't exactly sudden either, it was a long buildup since The Boiling Rock.

She made a rational, calculating decision to lightning Katara. I think she could manage to realize that she's walking over a river or if not then compensate. I agree that her issues were severely hindering her but not quite that much. It seemed like lazy writing.

[Box Boy]

The Fire Nation was all about strength, and power, right? Ozai had lost his firebending, and therefore his power. You really think the people would ever respect him as a ruler again?

I think that his soldiers would be outraged beyond all belief at what Aang did to him, effectively crippling him for life and giving him a faith worse than death in their eyes, and would fight even harder against what they would perceive as a massive insult to both their nation and honour. That's assuming that, as I believe, the vast majority would be loyal to him instead of the new, disgraced traitor prince who is trying to tear apart their empire to make it smaller and weaker.
If what I've seen of them is true, the nobles wouldn't really care about him being weak since he had the common man, or most of them, anyway, behind him and his actions. They'd probably use him as a puppet-leader of a rebellion to get back in power, then try to betray him. It's up to you who'd win that power struggle, however.

[Nath]

You, uhh...remember that she killed aang, right?

Uh, no? She knocked him out and fucked him up, but evidently a shot of lightening to the back only causes a nasty burn and a few days of bed rest.

More than a few days:

Katara: (Smiles) I like your hair.
Aang (Alarmed): I have hair?! (touching his newly grown hair) How long was I out?!
Katara: A few weeks.

I dunno, as with most examples of healing in the series, I got the impression it was simply potently expediting his recovery.

I'm also pretty sure it wasn't implied that Aang was going to die. He was unconcious, kind of injured, but he was breathing.

It's been a while since I saw that episode, but according to this summary, Aang disagrees:

While she is healing his back, Aang begins to recall the battle in Ba Sing Se and feels that he has failed everyone as the Avatar, that he was more than hurt by Azula's lightning attack but that his spirit had actually separated from his body, and that if Katara hadn't healed him he would be dead. Katara says that she used the spirit water on him, not knowing what exactly she did; Aang says she saved him.

[Izawwlgood]

Yeah, I remember him saying "I went down", but not saying anything to the effect of "I was dead". The 'you saved me' bit may have had something to do with the fact that she fought off the Dai'li and pulled Aang out, then healed him, instead of 'saved = resurrected me'.

And as for the spiritual separation,

Spoiler:

they said it had something to do with him being in the Avatar state when he was hurt, and for quite some time, he cannot go into the Avatar state again... Until, lo and behold, he tweaks his back and either snaps out of his fear of aggression with the realization that Ozai is not fucking around, or some yaddayadda about aligning his chakra's rather forcefully.

[Nath]

Yeah, I remember him saying "I went down", but not saying anything to the effect of "I was dead". The 'you saved me' bit may have had something to do with the fact that she fought off the Dai'li and pulled Aang out, then healed him, instead of 'saved = resurrected me'.

I just rewatched that scene. He says "I went down; I didn't just get hurt". The "you saved me" was very unambiguously about her use of the spirit water.

There's also all the Christ imagery I didn't notice the first time: when he's lying apparently dead on Appa, there's a shadow or something across Appa's stripe, and the framing makes it look like Aang is on a cross. And then there's this:


So it seems fairly likely that they meant to suggest that Aang was, in fact, dead for a bit.

[Zohar]

What are you talking about? There's no resemblance at all! Aang is facing in the completely wrong direction.

[Izawwlgood]

Huh. Intense. So, all of book 3, Aang is a zombie?

[Ginger]

The Avatar will restore balance to the world... but first: Could you lean your scrumptious human head closer so that he may gnaw at your skull?

[Thadlerian]

If what I've seen of them is true, the nobles wouldn't really care about him being weak since he had the common man, or most of them, anyway, behind him and his actions. They'd probably use him as a puppet-leader of a rebellion to get back in power, then try to betray him. It's up to you who'd win that power struggle, however.

I don't think he had. Most Fire Nation characters (excluding the leads and the villains) we see appear very ordinary and human - including the soldiers, as soon as they've got their armour off. Specifically, The Headband indicates that the personal cult around Ozai was something the government tried to enforce from the top, without much enthusiasm to see amongst the subjects. I think part of that episode's purpose was to show off the Fire Nation as ripe for reform, like with that dance party - there's a certain "behind the Iron Curtain" feel to it.

That's my contention: Sudden episodes of mental illness don't make you incapable of recognizing landmarks that are common knowledge. Plus, it's Sozin's Comet Spectacular. She breathed fire out her ears. Zuko melted ice from beneath the water didn't he? If so then Azula could've melted the ice block even if Katara did get her.

I think this can be explained with bending technicalities. Firebending is all about breathing - maybe Zuko could melt ice under water because he had drawn a deep breath and held it? If you watch the scene, you see there's at least something going on with his breathing that seems essential. Azula, on the other hand, was caught in the ice completely unaware.

Consider this in combination with the fact that characters need their hands free to bend effectively - that's the purpose of the earthbender handcuffs. Zuko had his hands free, Azula's were frozen in place.

And as for the spiritual separation,

Spoiler:

they said it had something to do with him being in the Avatar state when he was hurt, and for quite some time, he cannot go into the Avatar state again... Until, lo and behold, he tweaks his back and either snaps out of his fear of aggression with the realization that Ozai is not fucking around, or some yaddayadda about aligning his chakra's rather forcefully.

I think this was the worst part of Avatar. One of the few bad things, that is. The way they essentially undid the highly emotional gamble of the ending of season 2 by introducing an alternative way of opening the chakra right out of the blue. The idea of having to give up Katara could have made for some pretty strong drama in Aang's romance subplot in season 3.

I generally felt that whole subplot got seriously short-changed in the third season. Not least given The Ember Island Players developments, which are suddenly reversed (again out of the blue, with nothing leading towards it) in the final scene.

[Box Boy]

I don't think he had. Most Fire Nation characters (excluding the leads and the villains) we see appear very ordinary and human - including the soldiers, as soon as they've got their armour off.

The problem to me is that is that they were EVER capable of acting like they did with their masks, regardless of who they are without them, and that they're still the person who did the things their soldier persona has done inside.

Specifically, The Headband indicates that the personal cult around Ozai was something the government tried to enforce from the top, without much enthusiasm to see amongst the subjects. I think part of that episode's purpose was to show off the Fire Nation as ripe for reform, like with that dance party - there's a certain "behind the Iron Curtain" feel to it.

I always assumed that since the kids were teenagers they'd yet to be put through the whole process of being made entirely loyal through their formative years, and the becoming more mature as life went on, and as a result were a lot more open towards reform - essentially, the younger generations would be the ones to support Zuko and Aang, while the older ones were too far gone to be swayed from their beliefs.
I'll have to re-watch the Headband to see what you mean, as I can't seem to re-call what you're talking about. (but then again, I've forgotten large parts of the earlier episodes as well, and only really remember the most important things because of how long it's been since I've seen them)

[Izawwlgood]

Actually, I'm inclined to believe that most of the Fire Nation citizenry had no idea how wide reaching their wars were. Not to say that they were as oblivious as the Earth King was, but doubt they knew Ozai planned to reduce all the other kingdoms to ash. There were a handful of episodes dedicated to showing that most Fire Nation citizens were just normal citizens living in what were odd times. Whether or not they'd follow Ozai or Zuko probably has less to do with who they swore allegience to, and more to do with who generally lowered taxes and improved the quality of Fire Nation day to days.

Firebending is all about breathing

Actually, that's an interesting point; recall just as Zuko leaves Iroh to go kidnap Aang, and Iroh is worrying for his nephew, he says "Remember your breathing!", a trick Zuko later uses to warm his hands after breaking through the ice?

Still, for whatever specifics you want to criticize, I think the point is Azula was unhinged and losing it, Zuko was fucking boss, and Katara got the drop on Azula. You can decry the improper use of Lotus Blossom Style when faced with the Pouncing Crackhead move, but for the purpose of the story, it worked and it seemed not only in character, but in the theme of the tale.

[Ginger]

I'm not displeased with the way the story went or even Azula's arc in particular--Actually, the moment where she finally let her insecurities show and the resulting downward spiral was interesting to me. My problems are that she's my favorite villain so I kind of wanted her to win regardless of how unlikely it was to happen and that there was some lazy writing. I also disagree that Zuko was "boss," as the lightning bolt to the chest was a loss as far as I'm concerned. Katara was the real star of that scene. The point about breathing renders my objections to the writing on her Firebending prowess moot but not how her illness was portrayed, as I still found it out of character to a degree that she'd forget everything she probably knew about the palace to hunt down a single dirty peasant. But that's all I can offer and I've said it before so I suppose I'm done defending my favorite character now. :P

[Thadlerian]

The lightning bolt defeat wasn't about fighting prowess - it was because he sacrificed himself. He took the lightning bolt without planning for how/where to deflect it - as he demonstrated against Ozai, he's technically capable of doing it right, but this time he never planned anything beyond "don't hit Katara".

The battle was essentially over when he knocked Azula down with his "fire-from-feet" technique - which is highly fitting, story-wise, as this technique is reminiscent to the one he used to defeat Admiral Zhao - also in Agni Kai - in season 1. He and Azula would probably have battled on for ages, until exhaustion, but that move demonstrated that Zuko had the upper hand. The whole knock-off-feet seems very significant in Agni Kai.

[Izawwlgood]

I thought Azula's progression was pretty sensible. We saw her making failed power plays and over estimating 'love for Zuko over fear for Azula'. It's perhaps an accelerated progression, but basically from the point she throws a mild temper tantrum when Ozai crowns himself the Phoenix King, we know that Azula's in trouble.

And yes, Zuko was abso-fucking-lutely kicking her ass in that fight. Everything she threw at him he shrugged off, and he was maintaining his cool the entire fight. Had Katara not been in the arena, Zuko would have wiped the floor with Azula, which again, enforces the notion that Aang and his cohorts have the strength of friendship on their side, and Azula, alone and sneaky, is still failboat.

Azula's cold calculating control simply came to it's limits, and witnessing it's shortcomings in the face of friends who don't side with her anymore, and a weaker sibling who suddenly isn't so weak, was more than she could handle. The hallucination of her mother was really icing on the cake; face to face with her weaknesses, and no where to turn, Azula can only lash out, no matter how ineffectual it may be.

Zam. Zuko totally kicked ass.

[Nath]

I think this was the worst part of Avatar. One of the few bad things, that is. The way they essentially undid the highly emotional gamble of the ending of season 2 by introducing an alternative way of opening the chakra right out of the blue. The idea of having to give up Katara could have made for some pretty strong drama in Aang's romance subplot in season 3.

I agree. The choice between duty and love could have been a very interesting plot thread, but it didn't go anywhere. Everything wrapped up a little too neatly. I'd have liked to see the protagonists sacrifice something to win.

[Sockmonkey]

IIRC Katara was only able to move in the ice after she waterbent it using her breathing, giving herself enough wiggle room to do the rest by hand. Azula might have been able to melt free with fire-breath, except that she had already exhaled before being frozen to do her lightning strike. She could mover her eyeballs, but even though she's a prodigy, and Bumi could bend with just his face, I think eyeball-fire-bending is probably not possible.

[cephalopod9]

New Picture: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/03/06/the-last-airbender-legend-of-korra-exclusive-first-look/?mod=WSJBlog !!!

[Mavketl]

Awesome picture. Stupid comments.

[Sockmonkey]

I'd hit it.

[Ryom]

I hope that the changes in title to this and the House M.D. thread aren't preventing people from finding them in forum topic searches...

[Box Boy]

I hope that the changes in title to this and the House M.D. thread aren't preventing people from finding them in forum topic searches...

They really should be able to find this one by avatar, although i'm not certain about House.

[headprogrammingczar]

The change is only to the OP. You can still find the replies.

[Ryom]

Yea, the House thread would be a problem.

[SecondTalon]

It's not a problem

[Izawwlgood]

Hey, thought:

Spoiler:

When describing the avatar state, Aang is told that it was designed as a defense mechanism. Later, when Aang is speaking with the Lionturtle, the thing says "In the beginning, we bent not the elements, but eachother" or something. So... Who designed the Avatar state? The spirits that preceded the human world?

Oh man, also, in the library, Aang pulls a scroll and goes "Hey, look at these weird Lionturtle things!" Awesome.

[bigglesworth]

Spoiler:

Maybe the avatar state was the original state of the avatar, and was given up in return for reincarnation?

[Belial]

New Picture: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/03/06/the-last-airbender-legend-of-korra-exclusive-first-look/?mod=WSJBlog !!!

Reading the casting, three things jump out at me:

A) Woo, they got Daniel Dae Kim!

Theta) I am irritated by Seychelle Gabriel's presence, but only because I think anyone involved in the movie should've been blacklisted on principle

Muffin) I like that that, in naming the new characters, they turned the "asian" knob all the way to "so goddamn asian" as if to say "seriously, we didn't make this fucking obvious enough in the last series? Deny it now, I dare you."

[Mavketl]

There's an ongoing Avatar review (episode by episode) at Mark Watches which I really enjoy reading. It's basically reliving the whole thing without taking the time to re-watch everything, plus interesting comments!

[Mo0man]

New Picture: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/03/06/the-last-airbender-legend-of-korra-exclusive-first-look/?mod=WSJBlog !!!

Reading the casting, three things jump out at me:

A) Woo, they got Daniel Dae Kim!

Theta) I am irritated by Seychelle Gabriel's presence, but only because I think anyone involved in the movie should've been blacklisted on principle

Muffin) I like that that, in naming the new characters, they turned the "asian" knob all the way to "so goddamn asian" as if to say "seriously, we didn't make this fucking obvious enough in the last series? Deny it now, I dare you."

They made Goku a white guy. I'm pretty sure hollywood can just do whatever the fuck they want

[Jesse]

There's an ongoing Avatar review (episode by episode) at Mark Watches which I really enjoy reading. It's basically reliving the whole thing without taking the time to re-watch everything, plus interesting comments!

RSS'd

[Izawwlgood]

Can I just grow up to be Iroh? I’d like that. That’s what I’d like to be when I grow up.

Yup, he gets it.

[animeHrmIne]

I am in love with Mark Watches Avatar. I read it ever day and it makes me so happy.

[Joeldi]

I read EVERY SINGLE ONE. So I guess I've come to really like his style. I would rather not hear about his depressing childhood but if that helps him heal, then so be it. BUT UNPREPARED! OH GOD WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN SFHK;KJGSADG ASDFG;LKJH Yeah, wish he'd stop saying that.

[phlip]

Eh, it's enthusiasm, I can get behind that.

Maybe the fact that I only just watched the whole series a few weeks ago, and felt roughly the same way, has something to do with that.

[Joeldi]

OIh don't mind the excitement, I just mean the way he keeps saying unprepared.

[Mavketl]

BUT UNPREPARED! OH GOD WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN

I'm guessing it could be read as "I did not expect this [plot/character development/theme/issue/realism/whatever] in a show made for such a young audience and I am pleasantly surprised". It's just a little long to use as a frequent interjection, hence, SO UNPREPARED.

[phlip]

Oh, see I took all of that as being the stuff that Joeldi was complaining about... "unprepared", sentiments along the lines of "what does that even mean", random keyboard bashing and allcaps, all being things that are not unseen in these reviews...