## alternative mathematics

For the discussion of math. Duh.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

achan1058
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:50 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

I thought it is not allowed to edit posts or use red the way he's doing though, or am I misinterpreting the forum rules?

jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

### Re: alternative mathematics

achan1058 wrote:I thought it is not allowed to edit posts or use red the way he's doing though, or am I misinterpreting the forum rules?

I think he's being given a fair amount of leeway because of his difficulty expressing himself.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure no one is going to mistake his posts for mod posts.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

### Re: alternative mathematics

gmalivuk wrote:Yeah, and I'm pretty sure no one is going to mistake his posts for mod posts.

Oh, I just assumed all the red text in his posts was you editing them to make sure the important bits didn't get missed.
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

WarDaft
Posts: 1583
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:16 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

When he posted the other thread, I had thought he was using a concept of a basic distance as an analogue to induction (There is a point, for every point, there can be another point) but the branching nature is not particularly similar (though if restricted to finite length trees, it should be at least similar in power to induction, depending on equality relations)
All Shadow priest spells that deal Fire damage now appear green.
Big freaky cereal boxes of death.

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

The existing angles of 180 degrees, if you specify items may be quadrilateral, pentagon...

task. prove to be a real number result of division of two integers (a fraction)

Theorem- re-set set with two or more numbers that are equally apart

q10.png (13.09 KiB) Viewed 3657 times

Ca A={1,2,3,4}-1s14 , 1-starting number ,s-tag srcko, 1-distance,4- last number, closed srcko
Cb A={3,6,9,12,...33}-3s333
Cc A={4,8,12,16,20,...}-4s4 open srcko
Cd ...
MS.7-re-set ( srcko)

skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

### Re: alternative mathematics

Are you claiming that every real number is a ratio of two integers?
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

skeptical scientist wrote:Are you claiming that every real number is a ratio of two integers?

yes

phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7572
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

OK. Can you give us an example?

What ratio of two numbers, when multiplied by itself, equals 2?

If you are using your line diagrams to give the answer, please also provide the detailed working of you multiplying them together, and the result equalling 2.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

Kurushimi
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:06 am UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

phlip wrote:OK. Can you give us an example?

What ratio of two numbers, when multiplied by itself, equals 2?

If you are using your line diagrams to give the answer, please also provide the detailed working of you multiplying them together, and the result equalling 2.

Don't be cruel man. He'll be up all night. And the night after that. And pretty much every night thereafter.

@kumavero: I'm sorry to say that it is not true that every real number can be written as the ratio of two numbers. This has been proven.

phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7572
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

Kurushimi wrote:Don't be cruel man. He'll be up all night. And the night after that. And pretty much every night thereafter.

I'm not trying to be cruel, the whole point of this thread (if we give the OP a huge benefit-of-the-doubt) is that they have some new system of maths that's more expressive than the standard one, or more general, or in some other way can do things the standard system can't. But is having trouble explaining it due to a language barrier.

If it turns out that, somehow, they're right, then maybe in their system square root of 2 is a ratio of two values... though those values wouldn't be integers, or likely even numbers, in the standard system.
If it turns out that, as most in the thread expect, they're wrong, then maybe, just maybe, they'll learn something in the attempt. It's at least theoretically possible.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

Kurushimi
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:06 am UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

phlip wrote:
Kurushimi wrote:Don't be cruel man. He'll be up all night. And the night after that. And pretty much every night thereafter.

I'm not trying to be cruel, the whole point of this thread (if we give the OP a huge benefit-of-the-doubt) is that they have some new system of maths that's more expressive than the standard one, or more general, or in some other way can do things the standard system can't. But is having trouble explaining it due to a language barrier.
.

Yeah, I know. I was really just kidding.

But even if he did invent such a system, they wouldn't be what we're used to calling numbers at all. For one thing, they wouldn't have prime factors, and hence no prime numbers. (As a proof for the irrationality of the sqrt(2) can be done with the fact that every number has a unique prime factorization)

Ddanndt
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:18 pm UTC
Location: Paris

### Re: alternative mathematics

kumarevo wrote:The existing angles of 180 degrees, if you specify items may be quadrilateral, pentagon...

task. prove to be a real number result of division of two integers (a fraction)

BTW I have the impression that your posts are always incomplete...
God does not care about our mathematical difficulties — He integrates empirically.
—Albert Einstein

Tirian
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:03 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

I don't even see that he has defined addition yet in terms of his cycles, much less multiplication, so I can't understand how we could be expected to say anything about the ratio of two numbers. It's hard to tell, though. The record indicates that he definitely challenged us to do addition in different bases but then edited out the question, so I don't know if some people are using a deprecated definition of addition. But I'm pretty sure that even in that case he wouldn't have defined something more complicated than addition of the natural numbers.

nehpest
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

Maybe it's just how I'm parsing his English, but it seems to me that
kumarevo wrote:task. prove to be a real number result of division of two integers (a fraction)

means "all rationals are real" rather than "all reals are rational".

Of course, it seems likely that this distinction, if present in Serbian, would not have been preserved in translation.
Kewangji wrote:Someone told me I need to stop being so arrogant. Like I'd care about their plebeian opinions.

blag

skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

### Re: alternative mathematics

nehpest wrote:Maybe it's just how I'm parsing his English, but it seems to me that
kumarevo wrote:task. prove to be a real number result of division of two integers (a fraction)

means "all rationals are real" rather than "all reals are rational".

I'm assuming his response to my question clarifies that yes, he believes every real number is rational. But I suppose it's possible that he misunderstood my question.
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

Dason
Posts: 1311
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:06 am UTC
Location: ~/

### Re: alternative mathematics

I find it impossible to believe that kumarevo with his near perfect grasp of the english language could misunderstand your question.

On a plus side it looks like he took to annotating with green instead of red.
double epsilon = -.0000001;

Darrell88
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:49 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

kumarevo wrote:The existing angles of 180 degrees, if you specify items may be quadrilateral, pentagon...

task. prove ,to be a real number , result of division of two integers (a fraction)

With the commas it's clearer.
This is becoming more linguist and hieroglyphical than a mathematical

OverBored
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:39 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

I'm pretty sure he is claiming that all reals are rational. Not that it matters though. One of the claims is false, the other trivial. Neither make any sense in the framework that has been laid out (I think he has defined integers, but not multiplication/division, nor rationals, nor reals...)

Just to reiterate the important thing though:
phlip wrote:What ratio of two numbers, when multiplied by itself, equals 2?
G4!!

Grob FTW,

Hello. Smithers. You're. Quite good. At. Turning. Me. On.

gorcee
Posts: 1501
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:14 am UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

But guys, he has found an alternate mathematics.

undecim
Posts: 289
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:09 pm UTC
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

kumarevo wrote:
skeptical scientist wrote:Are you claiming that every real number is a ratio of two integers?

yes

[imath]\sqrt{2}[/imath] is a real number. What two integers make the ratio?
Blue, blue, blue

saus
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:19 am UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

So 314man is or has access to someone fluent in Serbian? Was the half-gibberish 314man mentioned from the paper or plain conversation? If it was the paper, this process will become a lot easier if someone communicates with him one on one in Serbian. If his normal writing is gibberish, and he cannot communicate in his presumably native language, it will be safe to say that he is just mad.

314man
Posts: 119
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:03 pm UTC
Location: Ontario

### Re: alternative mathematics

saus wrote:So 314man is or has access to someone fluent in Serbian? Was the half-gibberish 314man mentioned from the paper or plain conversation? If it was the paper, this process will become a lot easier if someone communicates with him one on one in Serbian. If his normal writing is gibberish, and he cannot communicate in his presumably native language, it will be safe to say that he is just mad.

The half-gibberish was from the paper. It's mostly grammar issues, although I don't really know it's a problem with his grammar or because he's just missing a lot of words. It's really short-hand writing.

On that note, I was going to some more parts translated, but I can't find the link to the rest of his work in serbian. I didn't download it when it was available so now I don't have access to it...

Also I'd rather not communicate just to see if someone is mad or not, it's not the reason I come to this forum.

Dason
Posts: 1311
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:06 am UTC
Location: ~/

### Re: alternative mathematics

314man wrote:Also I'd rather not communicate just to see if someone is mad or not, it's not the reason I come to this forum.

But... why else would you come here?
double epsilon = -.0000001;

Sizik
Posts: 1255
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:48 am UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

314man wrote:
saus wrote:So 314man is or has access to someone fluent in Serbian? Was the half-gibberish 314man mentioned from the paper or plain conversation? If it was the paper, this process will become a lot easier if someone communicates with him one on one in Serbian. If his normal writing is gibberish, and he cannot communicate in his presumably native language, it will be safe to say that he is just mad.

The half-gibberish was from the paper. It's mostly grammar issues, although I don't really know it's a problem with his grammar or because he's just missing a lot of words. It's really short-hand writing.

On that note, I was going to some more parts translated, but I can't find the link to the rest of his work in serbian. I didn't download it when it was available so now I don't have access to it...

Also I'd rather not communicate just to see if someone is mad or not, it's not the reason I come to this forum.

Luckily, I caught the link when I quoted his original "numbers in different bases" post: http://hotfile.com/dl/118801130/38bae55 ... h.pdf.html
she/they
gmalivuk wrote:
King Author wrote:If space (rather, distance) is an illusion, it'd be possible for one meta-me to experience both body's sensory inputs.
Yes. And if wishes were horses, wishing wells would fill up very quickly with drowned horses.

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

Theorem- re-set set with two or more numbers that are equally apart and a number that has nothing to do with srcko

Ca A={2,5,6,7,8,9,10,11}-2p_5s111 , p-pendant ,_-connection of two re-set
Cb A={6,9,12,15,18,19}-6s318_19p
Cc ...

MS.8-re-set (srclo+pendant)

a basis for proving the real =rational , feel a bit like a mathematician
q11.png (6.19 KiB) Viewed 3329 times

next solution

gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

kumarevo wrote:a basis for proving the real =rational , feel a bit like a mathematician
No. That only includes terminating decimals. Which fraction, when multiplied by itself, gives 2?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

gmalivuk wrote:
kumarevo wrote:a basis for proving the real =rational , feel a bit like a mathematician
No. That only includes terminating decimals. Which fraction, when multiplied by itself, gives 2?

when we get a reduction of function with two or more variables, I will give you the procedure so I calculate

gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26767
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

### Re: alternative mathematics

If you're using functions with variables, then you're not talking about integer fractions any more.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Ddanndt
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:18 pm UTC
Location: Paris

### Re: alternative mathematics

Here's a link of a much complete version of his axioms http://www.math10.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=431
. Most of it makes sense and is in fact nothing new except the real/ irrational bit which he still has to (try and won't be able to) prove .
God does not care about our mathematical difficulties — He integrates empirically.
—Albert Einstein

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

theorem: re-set set. frequency and srcko have a common point

Ca A={6,6,6,6,8,10,12,14,16}-6f4s216
Cb A={3,6,9,9,9,9,9,9,12,15,18,21}-3s39f6s321
Cc A={4,8,12,16,16,16}-4s416f3
Cd ...

MS.9-re-set (srcko + frequency(one point))
Last edited by kumarevo on Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Tirian
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:03 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

I've never formally studied the theory, but could this be a sloppy unnecessarily-graphical construction of the p-adic numbers? If he's defining that finite and infinite sequences of natural numbers are equally elementary, then that would at least explain why he is arguing that there are no irrational numbers.

Luonnos
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:46 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

It seems like he's treating infinity as a natural number, which is not true under normal definitions. Then again, he hasn't given us any alternative definitions of a number. Assuming only his first axiom, MS.0, it would seem impossible for him to create anything as complex as the natural numbers. Without something analogous to the Peano Axioms, the "1" and "2" that he's using have no relation to one another.

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

Theorem: The number are moving along at a numerical

MS.10-mobility number

Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:25 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

Are you using that to define addition?
such that the first number is which number is on the top, and the second how much it is shifted forwards?
eg.
1.2.3.4.
_._.1.2

oh, wait, thats subtraction, so rather, a+b would be how far forwards the bottom one is moved, and what number on the bottom you pick, with the top being the answer?

Or are you defining a new type of number called a mobility number? If so, what could you use this mobility number for? If neither of these guesses are correct, I guess someone else will figure out what you mean.
I found my old forum signature to be awkward, so I'm changing it to this until I pick a better one.

kumarevo
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

Theorem: numbers a, b, c, ... are mutually comparable

Ca comparability of the two numbers a<b , a=b , a>b , basis of comparability , ( 3 opportunities )
Cb comparability of the three numbers - open c>a=b , (9 opportunities)
q15.png (2.32 KiB) Viewed 2851 times

Cc comparability of the three numbers - glosed ( 27 opportunities )
Cd comparability of the four numbers - ...
MS.11-comparability of numbers

skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

### Re: alternative mathematics

kumarevo wrote:Cb comparability of the three numbers - open c>a=b , (9 opportunities)

Oh? I count 13.
a>b>c
a>c>b
b>a>c
b>c>a
c>a>b
c>b>a
a=b>c
a=c>b
b=c>a
a>b=c
b>a=c
c>a=b
a=b=c
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

achan1058
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:50 pm UTC

### Re: alternative mathematics

skeptical scientist wrote:
kumarevo wrote:Cb comparability of the three numbers - open c>a=b , (9 opportunities)

Oh? I count 13.
My take is that he's trying to do some sort of directed graph of number comparison, without caring about transitivity. If you do that, you can get the 27 that he claims. But there are definitely better ways of doing it, like using a poset, which preserves transitivity. (IMO dropping transitivity is generally absurd, unless you have really good reasons for doing so.)

Talith
Proved the Goldbach Conjecture
Posts: 848
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:28 am UTC
Location: Manchester - UK

### Re: alternative mathematics

His diagram almost makes it look like > isn't a partial order (a>b>c>a>b..... looks possible) in which case there would be 3^3 different choices for connections between three nodes. That still doesn't explain where the number 9 came from though.

skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

### Re: alternative mathematics

achan1058 wrote:My take is that he's trying to do some sort of directed graph of number comparison, without caring about transitivity.

My take is that he's just wrong, and multiplied the number of ways a and b can compare by the number of ways a and c can compare, and forgot/didn't realize that this is not enough to determine how b and c compare if a is larger/smaller than both.
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson