Progress and Goal-Setting

[savanik]

After a year and a half of working out fairly regularly, I am no longer the pasty white thing that couldn't even bench press a naked bar with no weight on it. I am somewhat encouraged. My fitness tests are showing me as 'beginner' with upper body strength and 'intermediate' with lower body strength (though I don't know if they're based on professional weightlifting or not). Pushups are 'average' and situps are 'above average'. I finally have enough strength that I don't need to rely on those simple machines anymore.

So where to go from here? Right now, I'm going to the gym 2-3 times a week for an hour and taking an Aikido class on the weekends.

One thing I've noticed is that while my stamina/conditioning has increased a great deal, I still don't have as much as I'd like. I'd like to run a marathon by the end of the year, but I'm nowhere near that fit yet.

My weight has been stable at 215 for the last year. This has been very frustrating - especially as I know I'm losing fat, because my strength has increased a huge amount in the process. I'd like to get down to 175 or so in the next year. This seems 'reasonable', but at the same time, unattainable with my current level of effort.

Finally, flexibility - I haven't found a lot of consistent resources for training this, and I've never been able to touch my toes. I've got oodles and oodles of leg strength and speed. This is something I'd like to work towards, but it's further down on the priorities list.

I'm thinking that if I do enough training for the marathon and get my conditioning back that I might be able to drop my weight at the same time, but based on people's recommendations, I think I have to pick up my exercise pace to basically be 2-3 hours of cardio a night to do this. This seems excessive. Thoughts, suggestions, good advice, bad advice?

Raw data in spoiler.

Spoiler:

Bench Press (1RM): 125 lbs
Squat Press (1RM): 310 lbs
Pushups in 2 minutes: 23
Situps in 2 minutes: 38
Weight: 210 - 215 lbs
1 mile run: 12:15

[Ulc]

A 12:15 mile?

Your lifting is pretty damn good*, but a 12:15 mile is quite slow - probably because you're a bit on the heavy side.

But sadly getting in great cardioshape, getting stronger and losing weight is sort of at odds. You don't build muscle if your diet isn't higher than your maintain budget in terms of calories - which means that you can't really (not quite true, it can be done, but it's hard) build muscle while on a diet. But restricting diet is much more important in terms of losing weight than any amount of working out. And building cardio requires a small amount of muscle growth, but plenty of carbs, whih again conflict with both diet and muscle building.

There's a reason that body builders talk about bulking and cutting as two separate processes.

If you want to lose weight (and you probably should do that as first priority), you'll probably need to cut down weightlifting to just maintaining your muscle mass for a couple of months, while you starting counting calories and eat 500 kcal less per day than you need to maintain your weight. Along with cardio training (couch to 5k is often recommended) and you should be able to drop 12-15 pounds.

Another stable recommendation for getting cardio up is tabata HIIT training - just remember to keep a bucket handy the first time (you'll figure out what it's for entirely by yourself). These really does work wonders.

Your maintain calorie budget is probably around 2400 with normal activity

And yes, being on a diet is a soul crushing thing, as I usually remarks "A life without good cheese, is a life not worth living", but sadly, working off fat is much, much harder than cutting diet just a little bit .

Ohh, and start participating in threads like "summer mile time" and "run 10.00 miles of doom", it's excellent motivation for most people

*How is it that everyone can squat significantly ore than they can benchpress, while my bench an squat is pretty equal?

[philsov]

basically be 2-3 hours of cardio a night to do this.

From what I've read about marathon training programs, it's usually less than an hour of cardio daily and then a longer run once a week. And this is at the like, halfway point. Might I suggest starting intermediate goals, too? Like... running a 5K first?

You, with a currently 12:15 mile, cannot possibly sustain 2-3 hours of worthwhile cardio, much less on a daily basis. Your running muscles are more than adequate, so at this point just focus more on increasing your max VO2. http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7 ... -0,00.html

Barring that, general marathon training advice.
http://www.runnersworld.com/subtopic/0, ... -0,00.html

[Nath]

*How is it that everyone can squat significantly ore than they can benchpress, while my bench an squat is pretty equal?

Squats use a lot more muscle mass -- quads, hamstrings, glutes etc., so a balanced trainee should be able to squat about 50% more than they bench. But people tend to dislike squatting and like benching, so it's often skewed to a 1:1 ratio for a lot of gym-goers. This will balance out within a few months of more systematic training, barring form issues.

But OP is skewed very much in the opposite direction. I've never seen such a low bench* with such a high squat, except in injured people. I suspect that at least one of the two is being done incorrectly. savanik, could you describe your form on the two exercises? Are you squatting below parallel?

BTW, the most reasonable barbell strength standards I've seen are here:
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifti ... dards.html

*Though still awesome progress from not being able to bench an empty bar.

[savanik]

But OP is skewed very much in the opposite direction. I've never seen such a low bench with such a high squat, except in injured people. I suspect that at least one of the two is being done incorrectly. savanik, could you describe your form on the two exercises? Are you squatting below parallel?

Mind you, these are squat presses - I lack a spotter with much upper body strength and confidence to lift weights off of me, so I'm using the machines there. :sadface: It's one of the ones with a 45 degree incline. Once I take up the weight, I'm squatting to where my knees are bent at a 90 degree angle before lifting all the way back up, without locking my knees at any point. Weight is maintained through the entire movement.

For the bench press, it's a standard barbell with weights. Spotter is quite comfortable with that one. However, back in high school, I managed to somehow injure my right elbow lifting about 135. (Back then I WEIGHED about 135, mind.) I've been approaching that number fairly cautiously but my elbow is definitely giving me warning twinges. Trying to figure out a good way to strengthen it - haven't seen a lot of information about strengthening joints other than 'work on the muscles around it'.

BTW, the most reasonable barbell strength standards I've seen are here:
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifti ... dards.html

Oh... whups. I was using the 'press' instead of 'bench press' standards. That puts me firmly in the 'untrained' spectrum, then. That's somewhat discouraging. I've never had much upper body strength, though.

while you starting counting calories and eat 500 kcal less per day than you need to maintain your weight... Your maintain calorie budget is probably around 2400 with normal activity

Yeah, that sounds about right. For about six months last year I cut back to 1800 tightly measured calories, food diary and all. Stopped drinking soda, ate more leafy vegetables, looked at cheese dishes and whimpered, still went to the gym, all that. Didn't lose any weight, though. Still had increases on strength, too. According to what everyone in the world told me, what I was doing was quite literally physically impossible. But those were the measured results.

After that I started drinking soda again, but still kept to 1800 calories for a couple more months, before finally saying 'fuck it' and eating food that tastes good again. Still no change in weight - I'm maintaining fairly good habits and still getting more vegetables and eating smaller portions, but I'm putting cheese on my broccoli again and not bothering with the journal.

With me, half of the pain was watching other people eating cheesy bread with their pizza while I was having chicken wings with no sauce. The other half was spending more time with the damn food journal than talking with my friends.

[Nath]

Mind you, these are squat presses - I lack a spotter with much upper body strength and confidence to lift weights off of me, so I'm using the machines there. :sadface: It's one of the ones with a 45 degree incline. Once I take up the weight, I'm squatting to where my knees are bent at a 90 degree angle before lifting all the way back up, without locking my knees at any point. Weight is maintained through the entire movement.

These are leg presses. They are a reasonable assistance exercise for some purposes, but the weights used cannot be directly compared to squats. For one thing, in a squat, you are moving your bodyweight in addition to the weight on the bar, so there's an additional ~150-200lb of actual weight being used. Also, the 45 degree incline reduces the total work done by about a factor of 0.7 (think back to high school trig). Thirdly, it's harder to judge range of motion, so most people end up shortening the movement when doing leg presses. The other disadvantage is that there's less hip flexion, so the posterior chain is hardly used; leg presses are mostly a quad exercise.

The best solution is to squat in a power cage, so that you can just set it down on the pins if you fail. This is quite easy to do; if you're concerned, just practice a couple of times with a light weight. The other option is to learn to just bail out of a failed squat and drop the bar. Easier to do with high bar than low bar squats, if you are familiar with those terms. Finally, if neither of those is an option, remember that your spotter's job isn't to singlehandedly lift the weights off you; the spotted merely takes a slightly-too-hard rep and makes it not-too-hard, to allow you to rack the bar and get out safely. You should be able to squat successfully with a weak spotter. And to start with, you'll likely be squatting less than you bench anyway.

[savanik]

Also, the 45 degree incline reduces the total work done by about a factor of 0.7 (think back to high school trig)...

I was under the impression that the pulleys/relative weights/etc. were supposed to compensate for the angle. Bah, dratted manufacturers. In any case, sounds like I'll have to get proper numbers later.

In general, though, I track personal progress using the same exercise - when I started I was down around 200 lbs on this exercise. So I know I'm stronger - just been trying to figure out where I stand with general population these days.

The best solution is to squat in a power cage, so that you can just set it down on the pins if you fail...

This is like a smith cage, right? We do have one at the gym, but I haven't found anyone who can explain how it's supposed to work. There's all kinds of hooks, and pins, and pulleys, and... things.

Finally, if neither of those is an option, remember that your spotter's job isn't to singlehandedly lift the weights off you; the spotted merely takes a slightly-too-hard rep and makes it not-too-hard, to allow you to rack the bar and get out safely. You should be able to squat successfully with a weak spotter.

I know that. The person who spots me, unfortunately, does not. You'd think they've have figured it out by now.

And to start with, you'll likely be squatting less than you bench anyway.

Yeah, sounds like I'll have to get proper numbers here later for comparison. Probably still somewhere on the lower end by the look of it. Still, better than when I started after several years of desk jobs.

[Nath]

This is like a smith cage, right? We do have one at the gym, but I haven't found anyone who can explain how it's supposed to work. There's all kinds of hooks, and pins, and pulleys, and... things.

No, Smith machines are different. They are elaborate contraptions that only let the bar move within a fixed vertical groove. This is a bad idea, and there's no good reason to use a Smith machine. A power cage is basically just two squat racks attached to each other, with a place to insert horizontal pins that you can set the bar down on. Failing that, many gyms also have a simpler option: spotting pins that fit into a regular squat rack. Not as stable, but probably OK for up to a couple hundred pounds.

Failing both of these things, and assuming you don't want to dump the bar, there are still other options. For instance, you can be a little more conservative with the weights, or do front squats instead (less useful for the posterior chain, but easier to fail gracefully).

Yeah, sounds like I'll have to get proper numbers here later for comparison. Probably still somewhere on the lower end by the look of it. Still, better than when I started after several years of desk jobs.

No doubt. And progress will happen very quickly in the beginning (as you've seen with your bench). I don't know if you've heard of a book called Starting Strength, often recommended on these forums. You sound like a good candidate for that program.

[savanik]

No, Smith machines are different. They are elaborate contraptions that only let the bar move within a fixed vertical groove. This is a bad idea, and there's no good reason to use a Smith machine. A power cage is basically just two squat racks attached to each other, with a place to insert horizontal pins that you can set the bar down on.

Hrm. I do not believe we have either of these. This makes things difficult. I don't think we even have a squat rack. I may have to check out the other YMCAs in the area.

Failing both of these things, and assuming you don't want to dump the bar, there are still other options. For instance, you can be a little more conservative with the weights, or do front squats instead (less useful for the posterior chain, but easier to fail gracefully).

Yeah. Dumping the weight is hard on the floor. Not terribly respectful to the other people in the gym.

No doubt. And progress will happen very quickly in the beginning (as you've seen with your bench). I don't know if you've heard of a book called Starting Strength, often recommended on these forums. You sound like a good candidate for that program.

I had not, though I'll take a look at it. I've got an awful lot of theory at this point. What I really need is more practice.

I've seen a lot of people saying that it's all about staying MOTIVATED!!! (In all caps, no less.) I've never been terribly motivated in my life. Not for school, not for classwork, not exercising. And no one's ever given me a satisfactory answer as to how to motivate myself. I'm not competitive by practice, and arbitrary goals seem, well, entirely arbitrary to me.

I tend to do things because I find them enjoyable. I've never worked out to the point where I've thrown up (where some people say I should be exercising). That doesn't sound like fun at all. It sounds more like heat exhaustion than exercise. I've never had a runner's high, never had an endorphin rush or anything like that.

Tips would be welcome.

[Ulc]

I've seen a lot of people saying that it's all about staying MOTIVATED!!! (In all caps, no less.) I've never been terribly motivated in my life. Not for school, not for classwork, not exercising. And no one's ever given me a satisfactory answer as to how to motivate myself. I'm not competitive by practice, and arbitrary goals seem, well, entirely arbitrary to me.

I tend to do things because I find them enjoyable. I've never worked out to the point where I've thrown up (where some people say I should be exercising). That doesn't sound like fun at all. It sounds more like heat exhaustion than exercise. I've never had a runner's high, never had an endorphin rush or anything like that.

Tips would be welcome.

Here's the problem: We can't tell you - it's a individual thing.

What works for my short term motivation is things like the "run 10.000" miles, places where I feel that it will be noticed if I do not work out, and some imaginary person will say "tsk tsk that Ulc - worthless bag of lazy meat, aint he?". In the longer term, what really helps me is remember how good it felt when I was in shape, and how nice it is to sleep well at night, not feel a constant low-grade back pain.. and it's awfully nice to have a sex drive again (it disappeared about the point where I passed 100 kg of muscle-free Ulc)

These probably wont help you, but it serves to illustrate something, namely that you're the only on that can figure out what motivation works for you. And obviously, you have found something that works for you, a bit at least. Otherwise you don't go from from being unable to bench the bar, to 125lb. Try to identify what motivation got you through that, and consciously doing things to improve that motivation.

And now for something completely different.

Have you done anything about cardio training yet? As have been pointed out, a 12:15 mile is really quite slow, and improving that time is far higher priority than doing 2-3 hour of barely-more-than-walking cardio per day.

[Nath]

Hrm. I do not believe we have either of these. This makes things difficult. I don't think we even have a squat rack. I may have to check out the other YMCAs in the area.
...
Yeah. Dumping the weight is hard on the floor. Not terribly respectful to the other people in the gym.

Yeah, doesn't sound like a terribly useful place to train. There are still a few more exercises to fall back on if you don't even have a squat rack (clean & front squat, heavy lunges, step-ups, Bulgarian split squats), but the simplest, best option is to just find a place to squat.

Dropping the weight is fine in some gyms, if they have bumper plates and platforms and sensible staff and patrons. I wouldn't do it with iron (or rubber-coated) plates in your typical chain gym, though.

As for motivation, I think having goals is not enough; I also need a plan to follow. And the goals tend not to be random numbers; I like to set them in terms of bodyweight. Yes, squatting twice my bodyweight is arbitrary, but it's something I can wrap my head around. The planning appeals to me because it turns my training into a puzzle to solve. And getting stronger is nice for much the same reasons that leveling up in an RPG is nice.

Having training partners or a coach is also useful. I don't do this for strength training (though I keep an online log), but the community thing is a big part of my grappling.

But really, after a few months of organized training, motivation will probably stop being an issue. I think that's about how long it takes for the exercise addiction to set in -- basically, once the workouts becoming challenging enough to really start pushing your body to its limits. Things are hard the first few weeks because the body is uncoordinated and not used to work, but it's really a different kind of hard a few months later when you've actually started to adapt, and you're starting to do things that human beings normally cannot do. I think the latter is what keeps you coming back.

[shocklocks]

With your goals you need to set one major goal above all else, whether it's: running a marathon, squatting 2x your body weight, getting to 10% body fat etc etc. Write this, along with the date(be realistic!) you plan on achieving it by and very briefly what you plan to do in order to achieve that goal.

ie: My goal is to be able to compete and finish a marathon. This goal will be achieved by the 1st of March 2012. In order to my achieve my goal I am going to start making intelligent food decisions and commiting x hours of my time per week to training.

Now the trick here is to make th is more then arbitary goal. You're going to read your mission statement at least twice a day(EVERY SINGLE DAY). Once when you're waking so from the very first minute of the day your major goal is in your head and once before you go to sleep so before you drift off you can access how much you've done to help accomplish it. When you read the paper you're going to envision your future self accomplishing the goal. Close your eyes and imagine yourself running through the finish line, try and capture any emotions you think you'll feel. There should be no doubt in your mind what so ever that you will achieve this goal. You know your plans for achieving it are solid it's now just a matter of going through the motions until it happens.

Sounds very repetetive and trivial doesn't it? I'm sure your able to rationalize a dozen reasons why you shouldn't do it. In the same respect that you're able to rationalize ALOT more reasons why should be working out and eating properly. You know damn well what you should be doing and you know that your life will be greatly enhanced in all aspects by you becoming fitter. Why the issue with motivation then? Well as you probably know your mind is made up of two parts. A subconscious and a conscious. The part which does all the rational thinking and weighing up of decisions is your consciousness. This is also the part of your brain that can't see the the point in reading a bit of paper you've already memorized day after day after day. The bit which is holding your back and causing you to make decisions which don't benefit you is your subconscious. Think of irrational fears humans have for example. Your conscious knows that the mouse is relatively harmless and not a big threat. Your subconscious is why you're up on the kitchen stool with a broomstick.

If you want to fix your motivation you need to fix your subconscious. All this talk about lacking motivation and never being able to be motivated in school, class yada yada... not seeing the point in random goals etc and a negative attitude in general is what broke it. Needless to say if you're always telling yourself bad things will happen or you're always in a bad mood and thus seeing the negative sides of everything then things will be bad. To mend it you need positive reinforcement. To acknowledge you have power over what you do and that your mindset has a huge impact on what the rest of your body does. If you say you have problems with motivation and that you can never feel motivated then you're never goign to feel motivated! Start reading the mission statement twice a day. Don't let your conscious side rationalize it, it isn't meant to make sense to that part of your brain. Remember to do it with emotion and a feeling of absolute certainty that your conscious plan is solid and that you're absolutely going to accomplish your goal. Remember to envision yourself having accomplised it and above all else remember to try and capture the emotions you think you'll feel when you're crossing that finish line.

That's alot of words. If you actually read it and found it helpful and you'd like any advice on making a conscious plan that helps you break things down and wade through all the theory so you can start taking action in a way that's most accomodating to your lack of motivation then let me know. I won't include it here because the post is already massive and for all I know you don't apreciate this sort of advice in the first place.

[savanik]

Now the trick here is to make th is more then arbitary goal. You're going to read your mission statement at least twice a day(EVERY SINGLE DAY).

...

Well as you probably know your mind is made up of two parts. A subconscious and a conscious. The part which does all the rational thinking and weighing up of decisions is your consciousness.

On one hand - I don't actually believe this. I studied it in psychology but it's never made any sense. As near as I've figured out, watching my own mental processes and other people, what they really mean is 'the part that acts, and the part that reacts'. Most people seem to spend their time in the latter mode - to wit, not thinking about what they're actually doing. Whenever I notice myself doing something like that I pause and actually sit down to think about it. 'Hmm, I'm in a really bad mood right now. Why is that? Nothing anyone else has done has caused this. Ok, it's probably an internal problem then. Oh, I haven't had anything to eat in the last 12 hours - I should fix that.' It works for me, and keeps me from, say, snapping at people and being a dick just because I'm run down and hungry.

On the other hand - on reflection, while I've heard about this technique before, I've never actually tried it. I'm generally willing to try anything once, especially when there's no real downside potential. Worst case, this would cost 30 minutes a day. (It takes 15 minutes to recover from an interruption and resume productive work - assuming you're being productive in the first place. )

I'll have to come up with some metrics to roll around it so I can track effectiveness, though. Either how many sessions I missed, or chart general 'motivation' levels. They both seem reasonable. What kind of timeframe would you say is reasonable to re-evaluate results - one month or six?

[shocklocks]

On one hand - I don't actually believe this. I studied it in psychology but it's never made any sense. As near as I've figured out, watching my own mental processes and other people, what they really mean is 'the part that acts, and the part that reacts'. Most people seem to spend their time in the latter mode - to wit, not thinking about what they're actually doing. Whenever I notice myself doing something like that I pause and actually sit down to think about it. 'Hmm, I'm in a really bad mood right now. Why is that? Nothing anyone else has done has caused this. Ok, it's probably an internal problem then. Oh, I haven't had anything to eat in the last 12 hours - I should fix that.' It works for me, and keeps me from, say, snapping at people and being a dick just because I'm run down and hungry.

That sort of thinking sort of runs along the same lines. You're noticing that you aren't making decisions that make sense or feeling how you should so you've sat down and figured out a way that you think will solve it. It doesn't actually matter what you decide to do about it. If you convince your self you're in a bad mood because you're hungry and you're certain that you can change that by eating then your mood is going to improve when you eat something. I don't actually know enough about the science behind it(or even if that is really all that much) just that it's a technique many successful people use. At the very least even if you don't believe it works it's still going to keep your goal in your head throughout the day so you're always on track.

On the other hand - on reflection, while I've heard about this technique before, I've never actually tried it. I'm generally willing to try anything once, especially when there's no real downside potential. Worst case, this would cost 30 minutes a day. (It takes 15 minutes to recover from an interruption and resume productive work - assuming you're being productive in the first place. )

Basicly that's what it boils down to. I don't claim it's the most effective or best way you can go about things but without a better plan of attack it's always good to keep an open mind. Too many people would dismiss it as witchcraft or some sort of nonsense and tell them selves that they don't need any special plan, just to go out and bloody do it. I'm not saying those people are wrong, infact I would think if you're absolutely certain that you just need to go out and do what you have to do and you're certain you have the motivation to then you're actually using a similar line of thinking anyway. Too many people however just shrug it off because it's eaiser to make an excuses about why it won't work and not change anything at all.

I'll have to come up with some metrics to roll around it so I can track effectiveness, though. Either how many sessions I missed, or chart general 'motivation' levels. They both seem reasonable. What kind of timeframe would you say is reasonable to re-evaluate results - one month or six?

Well it's all dependant on what your plan of attack is. You'll definitely see some pretty impressive results at the 6month mark if your routine and diet is solid. A good way of getting into into the routine of working out and dieting, esspecially if motivation is a problem is to slowly introduce changes over a period of several weeks. For example for the first 3 weeks do nothing new except drinking 2-4litres of water daily and begin taking 2-5grams of fish oil with every major meal you have. Write that down as your goal for the next 3 weeks and read it in the mornings and evenings when you read your mission statement and ensure that no matter what else you follow it.

After those 3 weeks are done add another diet goal and a fitness goal to do for the next 3 weeks on top of the fish oil. eg: Have a perfect diet 2 days of the week OR start having a healthy breakfast every day of the week OR start replacing half the carbohydrates you'd usually eat in a meal with vegetables. for the fitness you could start going for a run twice a week OR begin squatting 3x weekly and dedicating your workouts to getting your squat form perfect. Again put this goal beside your mission statement underneath the fish oil and water and read it twice a day. If it helps you can add a little area to tick off each day you follow it.

Next 3 weeks we add to those 2 goals. Eat healthy 4 days during the week OR start having a healthy breakfast AND a healthy lunch etc etc. I don't know what you'd do for running I'm not much of a runner but if you were lifting you could now start learning the press and bench press and doing them after your squats 3x a week. After the next 3 weeks you'd be eating healthy 6 days per week or eating a healthy breakfast. lunch and dinner and your diet should be pretty much right. If you were doing starting strength you'd learn the last 2 exercises and you'd now be doing full work outs during the week. After doing that for 3 weeks figure out anything else you need to fine tune and spend 3 weeks implementing those final changes.

At this point you no longer have to make a new goal every 3 weeks. You can start making goals based on your progress instead ie: lose 1pound per week, lose an inch of your waist every x weeks, get your mile under a certain time, run a certain ammount of ks, squat a certain ammount of weight etc etc etc. What ever makes sense to you. You're again going to write this goal under the others and tick it off as you finish. Now it's just a matter of constantly achieving small goals until you reach the first one you wrote down in your original mission statement.