Lataro wrote:The code used in Inception just left me thinking, "This is such a huge pain in the ass to deal with... fuck it."
Tried to keep them somewhat... "playful?"... because of this, but sorry if that didn't turn out that way. It did seem that people wound up with quotes from our chat, though, so FWIW, the codes mattered somewhat.
It was more of... "Holy crap, that was a long message, now I have to spend 20 minutes translating that? Ugh." It wasn't the only reason I dropped though, I got a modprod for activity, and said to myself, "I really don't know what to say here... there is nothing that jumps out to me to comment on, the replacement list is pretty full though right now, and this code is giving me a real headache having to deal with, I'll let someone else have the spot if they really want in."
Krong wrote:Your paragraph about playing scum is awesome to the point that I think it should be stickied.
When I saw this topic come up about scum being too hard, I seriously considered offering a "How to not suck at scum" seminar.
Krong wrote:-- The problem with boldness and having a plan is that it provides town an obvious thing to look at and interpret. Playing passive and random, OTOH, does not. And honestly, I think the best scum teams have a mixture of styles among the different players. The guy who's bold is going to do damage but not last the game; having someone who's stayed out of sight due to the behavior of the bold guy is how you win in the endgame. In both Inception and AC, weiyaoli was really good at the passive bit, while the rest of us generally screwed around and got into trouble. (I'm especially thinking of AC Animus here).
-- The other thing is that it's hard to come up with bold scum moves that are reasonable bold town moves, especially in closed games where scum doesn't have all that much more info than town. You really have to have all the pieces working together. For instance, in Inception, Weeks was able to convince PhoenixEnigma that he was a senator with a limbo-return ability. There was a lot that went into that:
1. Believable rolename
2. Believable ability (which could have blown up on us if Limbo was revealed to be something different)
3. Faking of the ability through flavor
4. Motivation (protect obvious inception target), which was based on
5. False game setup idea (President is target, not PE), which required
6. Flavor to subtly reinforce the "Prez is target" meme
7. Weeks' behavior being townie enough to avoid direct suspicion
8. Other actions (use of anon PMs, level of willingness to claim) that jived with all the rest
The other thing about this: even given that all of this was working well, we were still quite far from convincing PE to kill himself. By that point, the most we had going was (1) town thinking the president was a target, if not the target (2) PE thinking he had limbo protection, and probably that Weeks was town (3) Brook thinking he was a werewolf in charge of designing spacecraft tubing for NASA. Therefore, even though we came up with a bold scum move that looked like a bold town move.... it didn't get us that much closer to a win. "Not saying scummy things" was the key, as it usually is.
I fully agree that if everyone just went and was bold, it'd be a short game, you definitely need someone whom you can work to getting townie status for the endgame, in most situations at least.
Statistically, the first one to claim cop with a scum result gets more credibility than their counter claimer, yet, virtually no one ever does it. Claiming other roles besides cop can be beneficial as well, if only to out the real one. If you put your mind to it, you can find angles to work with most anything. If no NK occurs on a given night, you can claim roleblocker and take credit for it and "out" a target. You can also claim doctor at MYLO/LYLO or other such situations and claim your target as a way to "help" town narrow down the lynching field. Hell, you can even claim cop, get a counterclaim, back down saying you had a read on someone and thought they were scum, and were trying to draw the NK as VT and protect the cop. Whenever you are in a situation where gaining one more townie lynch, or outing a specific role is worth the loss of a scum, it should be strongly considered. Even if you are not believed, you throw up such a dust cloud for the day that you let the other scum hide in it, and keep the topic "safe" for them. There are a number of times I'll be in a game as scum or watching one and just be screaming at the other scum in my mind, "It doesn't matter, stop dragging your feet, if this one thing goes though, we could all be outed when the reveal is done, and it would not matter!" and they just keep playing it safe. I think this was part of the problem in Chaos, scum had a horribly dismal chance of winning that game due to the setup and mass claim breaking the crap out of it, and I just wanted to scream at Dr Ug to realize that we had a possible D2 win in the bag if we got lucky with our kill targets, and that that luck, short of a horrible townie play, was our only chance. To me, in those, rather rare, situations, it is more apparent than ever that the majority of people don't put much thought into scum strats. There is definitely a time to be passive, but if you can assess a possible win with whatever bold play someone else is trying to make, you got to be willing to make the leap. You may lose it all, but if you don't, 9 times out of 10, the person making the move will just be hung out to dry for nothing.
That really is my point here about scum play. People simply need to be more aware of their options, the possible gains from various moves they could make, and be willing to bet it all when it's a good move to make. If everyone is just passive though, then yeah, as I said, you will win here and there, but mostly that's due to luck rather than actively being earned. A wins a win really, but I'd rather have fun with grand schemes and such than sit on my ass and hope it comes to me.
DS9, after being told the story and moral of the boy who cried wolf by Julian.
Garak: "Are you sure that's the moral?"
Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."