[Micro] Lucid Dreamers (Dreamer Win) - The End?

[Ibarra]

Lucid Dreamers

It is a format wherein both town and scum can send in any Night Action every Night - barring game-breaking actions.
Scum have a kill along with their respective actions. The kill decision will switch from scum to scum.
Scum cannot communicate with each other.
Only one action per "category" may be executed per Night. The first one to submit it will get priority of the action. The others who submitted will not be notified that their action was cancelled. Categories include protecting, investigating, killing, etc.

Dreaming:
1. cjdrum - Dreamer - Survived
2. John Citizen - Dreamer - Survived
4. webby - Dreamer - Survived
7. tastelikecoke - Dreamer - Survived

Woke Up (and Died):
3. Hausdog - Dreamer - Lynched - Day 1
5. Misnomer - Nightmare - Nightkilled - Night 1
6. mpolo - Nightmare - Lynched - Day 2

Going to Bed:
1. n/a

[Ibarra]

Rules:
Game Specific:
1. No gamebreaking actions are allowed.
2. If it is blatantly obvious that the action you are asking for is game-breaking, you will get modkilled.
3. If the mod told you, your action is game-breaking and you still insist on doing it, you will get modkilled.
4. Examples of game-breaking actions:
a. Role Changing
b. Adding Cults
c. Anything else subject to the mod's disgresion.
5. Only one night action per "category" per night is allowed. The first one to submit it will get priority of the action. The others who submitted will not be notified that their action was cancelled. Categories include protecting, investigating, killing, etc.
6. All actions with the exception of some passive actions must be executed during the Night only.
7. All actions must span only one Night/Day phase.

General:
1. Do not quote your role PM or anything the mod gives to you.
2. Do not post screenshots or any sort of factual evidence of private communications, either with the mod or amongst yourselves.
3. Do not edit your posts.
4. Do not talk outside of the thread, unless your role PM allows so. This excludes spoilers in the spoiler thread though.
5. Mod has the final say on any issue. If the mod makes a mistake, feel free to PM him to sort it out.
6. If you need any help, or have questions, or just want to talk in general, feel free to PM the mod.
7. Dead men tell no tales. Dead people may not post in the thread.
8. Blue is my color. Don't use it.

Day:
1. Game starts with a Day Start.
2. Deadlines will be one week tentatively. Extensions may be placed depending on the activity.
3. You may vote someone by using this format: Vote : Player You may not No-Lynch.
4. You may also remove your vote by using this format: Unvote : Player
5. When a player receives more than half of the total votes at any point during the day, that player is automatically lynched.
6. Once a player is lynched, there shall be no posting in the thread. Night will commence shortly.
7. If no one has been lynched, and the deadline has passed, the person with the most votes gets lynched. If there is a tie, the one who reached the tying amount of votes first, is lynched.
8. A player has to remain active, at least one post per 48 hours. If a player has not posted for 48 hours, they will be prodded. This does not included weekends.
9. If the player prodded doesn't respond, a he/she will be replaced.
10. If the player gets prodded three times already and still becomes inactive he/she will be automatically replaced.
11. If no replacement can be found. The player will be modkilled instead.

Night:
1. Night lasts a maximum of 48 hours. It may end early if everyone has submitted an action.
2. Any roles or factions with night actions may choose to use them by PM-ing the mod (see the Role PM for role-specific instructions).
3. Once the deadline for night has passed, all actions not received will count as a No Action.

Roles:
You are a Nightmare along with XXX.
Apart from the Nightkill decision which will switch between you and your partner, you can also do another Night Action in the limits of the rules that were set.
You win when all Dreamers are dead.

You are a Dreamer.
You may perform any Night Action in the limits of the rules that were set.
You win when all threats to you and your fellow Dreamers are gone.

[Ibarra]

Roles are sent. Please confirm in-thread.

[Hausdog]

Confirmin up in hurrr

[Misnomer]

Confirm

[Misnomer]

EBWOP:

Can actions be passive, or do they have to be targeted actions against another player? For example, could I send in bulletproof?

Also, do actions have to be carried out that night, or can they be used the next day? For example, could I send in a double vote?

[mpolo]

Confirming.

[cjdrum]

Confirmin!

[webby]

Confirm!

[John Citizen]

Confirm.

[Ibarra]

Can actions be passive, or do they have to be targeted actions against another player? For example, could I send in bulletproof?

Passive abilities are allowed - depending on how they affect the game. Bulletproof-ness for example, isn't allowed.

Also, do actions have to be carried out that night, or can they be used the next day? For example, could I send in a double vote?

All actions must be carried out in the Night. They may resolve during the day, but it shouldn't involve any day actions. An exception to this are the allowed passive abilities. Double voting is not passive as it requires an action (voting).

Incidentally, more_people hasn't responded to his PM yet. I'm looking for a replacement for him.

[Ibarra]

tastelikecoke is replacing more_people

It was a long day. You finished up everything you had to do. Now in front of you is your bed. You lie down and when you close your eyes, your mind drifts off. Suddenly, a bright light forces you to open your eyes. You would imagine that you were still in your bed, but you're now in some field. While the grass is whistling and the wind is blowing, you notice the sun up in the horizon. This couldn't be your room. You think the sun is too bright and want a pair of sunglasses. Suddenly, a pair pops out of nowhere and lands in your hands.

You then notice that there are six other people on the field. That makes you seven. Suddenly, a tall man wearing nothing but a robe appears out of nowhere. "Welcome to the Land of Dreams - where anything can happen. You just have to think it does. There are two of you who wish to destroy this world. The others must eliminate them before they succeed."

With a puff of smoke, he disappears. Though he seems to have left a note. "Oh and by the way, if you die here, you die in the real world. I thought that saying it would spoil the benevolent appearance, so I'm writing it here instead. Good luck!"

The note leaves a bitter taste in you mouth. I guess it's time to get lynching?

IT IS NOW DAY 1
DEADLINE IS IN SEVEN DAYS NOT COUNTING WEEKENDS.
WITH 7 ALIVE, IT TAKES 4 TO HAMMER.

[Misnomer]

...in times gone by...


*ahem*

Ok, so: we begin this with no information and little else on which to base discussion. Therefore, to start the ball rolling...

"It would be a bad idea for dreamers to send in kill powers." Discuss.

[mpolo]

Certainly not as an early-game strategy. There might be a point later on when it is appropriate, but we are too few to kill extra people without a pretty solid case. I think that tonight we should concentrate on investigative and protection powers. But we also have to get creative with the powers we submit so as not to lose out on powers.

And deciding who submits what power in thread is dangerous, as the scum will then know who is dangerous/likely unprotected. Unless someone else sees a way to do so safely.

[cjdrum]

Definitely no kills from Town. Unless...

Mod: Can scum submit both a factional kill and a dreamt kill?

Because if they can, then they essentially have two kills (no duh). Then the other Nightmare uses their power at will.

If they can, then I think we should have two separate vote counts - one official, one for the VigKill - and a designated killer (lol). Then, at night, that player has to kill the player with the most unofficial votes. If done right on day end, this prevents scum from double killing.
Then if the designated Vig doesn't kill the right person, or doesn't kill, we can be fairly suspicious of them.


Right?

[Ibarra]

Mod: Can scum submit both a factional kill and a dreamt kill?

Yes. They can, but they cannot communicate with each other.

[webby]

Ok, so it isn't quite clear what the categories are. I suggest that they would be - investigating, protecting, roleblocking, redirecting, killing, talking. I can't think of a seventh off the top of my head.

Mod: If our action is rejected because someone has already taken that category, do we get to choose a different action, or will it just fail?

It's very important that town gets the kill - I suspect that whoever hammers will have the best chance of getting it, because they'll obviously be online when night starts. So maybe we need to elect someone to carry out the kill, as well as who they should kill?

I think it favours us to know who's going to use what power, at least until LYLO, because we can restrict what scum can do. It doesn't help us so much to know who the powers are going to be used on though, so I think that should be avoided.

I'll have more later, still trying to get my head around how this game should be played.

[webby]

Just had a thought - if we work on the assumption of two nightkills, then we shouldn't lynch (mislynch + two misdirected kills = loss). How about we no lynch and use the kill power in place of the lynch?

[Ibarra]

Mod: If our action is rejected because someone has already taken that category, do we get to choose a different action, or will it just fail?

You will not be informed whether your action has been rejected or not. You may change the action you submit though.

[cjdrum]

Just had a thought - if we work on the assumption of two nightkills, then we shouldn't lynch (mislynch + two misdirected kills = loss). How about we no lynch and use the kill power in place of the lynch?

Nope, we can't No Lynch, according to OP...

I, uh...

Crap. No idea. No-lynching would've made sense, but uh...

[John Citizen]

Can we make priority lists of actions dependent upon gamebreakingness?

By which I mean:

Action:player, but if that is gamebreaking, Action2:player2
(mostly for ease of submitting)

I think that, for cjdrum's system to work effectively, the person submitting the kill action needs to be online right at deadline. Also, if the consensus is of no kill, a roleblock could be used, but would also need to be fast. I'm also assuming that night actions cannot be pre-submitted. Just to check:

Can night actions be pre-submitted?

Also,

Is resurrection gamebreaking?

[webby]

Oops sorry, I missed a 'not' in the original post.
I also missed the no no-lynching rule. Not very good with the rules tonight.

Without pre-empting the mod, I would suspect that the answers to JC's second and third questions will be 'no' and 'yes'.

It's clear that the elected vig should be the hammer.

We could get in trouble very early here. If we get the lynch wrong and pick the wrong person to be vig we lose unless we get a good doctoring. We need to treat this as immediate LYLO.

[cjdrum]

Well, it practically is.

We know we have three kills per cycle. It's an absolute given.

The best we can hope for is either:
a) Successful Doctor
b) Successful Roleblock
c) Successful Kill
- - - On top of this, a Cop would be nice too

Is there any way we could... Hmm...

I'll think on it while my iPod is dead. I'll let y'all know in the morning - maybe 10 or so hours?

[cjdrum]

Best I've thought of so far is if someone became a Lightning Rod each night. Then they take both the kills for us, and we completely control the scumkill.

Then what we need is a White Mage protection, which lasts for two nights (assuming it's allowed), and target N2's LR with it N1 and N2, saving them from both kills N2.

Making sense?

Pros
- Only two deaths cycle 1, then one from then on
- We control who scum kills

Cons
- No Cop results
- If we accidentally tell a Nightmare to be the Lightning Rod N1, then we've lost due to them just... Not... LRing.
- - - SOLUTION: Have someone online directly at deadline (or hammer) to send a kill straight away, to the LR volunteer



Is that... Okay? I'll keep thinking, but I think it might just work.

[Misnomer]

What's a white mage protection?

Also, I'm not sure what repeatedly LR'ing would achieve - if we get no investigative results, and have a standard strategy that we just repeat each day, wouldn't the game ultimately deteriorate into a string of random lynches?

I'm thinking investigation powers are probably the way forward for this game - would a public cop power be gamebreaking?.

As for kill actions, though I'm wary of having a vig kill, I agree it's better than having an extra scum kill. We need a town player should send one in.

[webby]

Also, I'm not sure what repeatedly LR'ing would achieve - if we get no investigative results, and have a standard strategy that we just repeat each day, wouldn't the game ultimately deteriorate into a string of random lynches?

The point is that (assuming we avoid scum interference and the selected player actually does become a lightning rod) it has the effect of scum not having a kill. Almost random lynches + scum not having a kill has to be better than informed lynches and scum having a kill.

But actually when I think about it, I'm not sure that this strategy is going to work. It was a good idea, but I think scum could use a redirect power or similar - although not sure how lightning rod would interact with a redirect.

And btw I had no idea most of those roles existed.

[Ibarra]

Can we make priority lists of actions dependent upon gamebreakingness?

By which I mean:

Action:player, but if that is gamebreaking, Action2:player2

You may not.

Can night actions be pre-submitted?

No.

Is resurrection gamebreaking?

Yes.

would a public cop power be gamebreaking?.

Public cop powers would fall under Day Actions. All actions except some passive day actions are not allowed.

[cjdrum]

Arrrgh!

I've come up with nothing. The restriction on "one action per undefined category per night" is driving me insane!

Anyway. On to the posts...

What's a white mage protection?

It's just a normal Doctor protect which lasts for two consecutive nights.

Also, I'm not sure what repeatedly LR'ing would achieve - if we get no investigative results, and have a standard strategy that we just repeat each day, wouldn't the game ultimately deteriorate into a string of random lynches?

Yes, but... What webby said. Town controls who gets killed in the game, and scum have minimal interference, rather than the other way around.

I'm thinking investigation powers are probably the way forward for this game

The problem (for me) is that we can only have one informative power per night, and (with the information of Ibarra's answer to your question) we have no way of knowing who is telling the truth. It is just a whole lot of wine.

As for kill actions, though I'm wary of having a vig kill, I agree it's better than having an extra scum kill. We need a town player should send one in.

What are your thoughts about killing if we go with the Lightning Rod idea, then?

But actually when I think about it, I'm not sure that this strategy is going to work. It was a good idea, but I think scum could use a redirect power or similar - although not sure how lightning rod would interact with a redirect.

I think that the Lightning Rod would become the target of both ends of the redirection. And I have a feeling that Lightning Rod and Redirect fall under the same category, so only one of them could be performed each night.

And btw I had no idea most of those roles existed.

Ha, I spend too much time on the MafiaScum wiki...

[cjdrum]

Mod: Can we get a list of the categories that actions can fall into please?

[Ibarra]

Mod: Can we get a list of the categories that actions can fall into please?

No.

[tastelikecoke]

Replacinating. Also Readingtherulesinating.

Why so stingy about using blue...

[Hausdog]

Haven't read any posts yet, but I propose that tasteslikecoke kills me and cjdrum protects me the instant night starts. That way, the nightmares can't get in 2 kills. ¿Pensamientos?

[Hausdog]

Also imo Misnomer's town and mpolo's scum.

Vote: mpolo

[mpolo]

Can you give a little bit of reasoning on this assertion? It seems to have come basically out of the blue.

[webby]

*goes back and reads the player list because I didn't realise tastelikecoke and hausdog were even in the game*

Ok, so we obviously do need a night strategy, but equally important is finding a lynch target (actually probably most strategies require us to find two lynch/kill targets).

Here's a quick sketch of my thoughts on players so far:
1. cjdrum - looks like he's genuinely looking for a good town strategy. Very detailed and thought through ideas. I've played two previous games with cjdrum, both times he was scum, both times I thought he was town on day 1, so that should be taken into account, but I'm pretty confident here. Townie.
2. John Citizen - only one post, asks some questions. The answers to those questions are useful to anyone playing the game, whether scum or town. Neutral/lurkerish (although I just realised the game has only been going 2.5 days, so this analysis may be a little premature. )
3. Hausdog - two posts, one which demonstrates he hasn't read the thread, the other making an odd accusation and defence of another player. I've only seen him play in scummer in an odd independent role, so I don't know how he usually plays. But slightly scummy at this point.
5. Misnomer - starts the discussion with a question about whether townies should send in kill powers. Expresses reservations about cjdrum's strategy and thinks that investigative powers are the way to go. Neutral/slightly townie.
6. mpolo - Doesn't think town should send in kills, which is poor logic, but I'm not sure if it's immediately obvious that town should send in kills. Asks for reasoning for Hausdog's vote. Neutral/Lurker.
7. tastelikecoke - Nothing yet. Lurker.

We still have 4 days until deadline, but I thought I'd get some initial thoughts out there for people to respond to so we don't rush the lynch.

My overall impression from most to least scummy:
1. Hausdog
2. mpolo
3. John Citizen
4. Misnomer
5. cjdrum

tastelikecoke doesn't have any content yet to be judged on.

[Hausdog]

You DO realize that the person you're calling the most scummy has made no accusations except for the person you're calling the second most scummy? If I'm working from the assumption that you're town, that would mean that you're proposing that one part of the scumteam just threw the ENTIRE rest of the scumteam under the bus as his second post of the game, and in a grandiose, obvious fashion.

[cjdrum]

A few questions, Hausdog:

1. Why is Misnomer Town?
2. Why is mpolo Scum?
3. Are you aware of how full of wine your most recent post is?

[webby]

You DO realize that the person you're calling the most scummy has made no accusations except for the person you're calling the second most scummy? If I'm working from the assumption that you're town, that would mean that you're proposing that one part of the scumteam just threw the ENTIRE rest of the scumteam under the bus as his second post of the game, and in a grandiose, obvious fashion.

Not at all, as an example I could think that there's a 50% chance you're scum and a 40% chance mpolo is scum, but that it's unlikely you're both scum, and still think that you're the two most likely players to be scum at this stage.

And ninja'd by cjdrum's very good questions.

[mpolo]

I missed the strategy point that by town requesting kill powers, we could prevent scum from getting a second kill. If you read my post, my concern was with too many kills floating around with so few players, so that now that someone has pointed out that we can prevent scum from getting an additional kill power.

We're going to have to time things well, and I have to admit that I don't like mechanics that force us to be cutthroat about times online and such. If night should fall while I am asleep in real life, that will most likely mean that any power that I submit will have already been taken.

I can't really get into an uproar about Hausdog's accusation, simply because it lacks any substance. If there were something there to argue, I would do so.

I had a lot of extra real-life work yesterday, and simply didn't get back to important stuff like mafia. Sorry for not being here yesterday.

[Misnomer]

As for kill actions, though I'm wary of having a vig kill, I agree it's better than having an extra scum kill. We need a town player should send one in.

What are your thoughts about killing if we go with the Lightning Rod idea, then?

I'm still not entirely confident with using a lightening rod, but it does occur to me that it deals very effectively with the headache of the extra kill. If we have a lightening rod, then town doesn't actually need to send in a kill power - whether scum have one or two kills is meaningless, as they're going to be targeted at the same player anyway.

Also imo Misnomer's town and mpolo's scum.

Vote: mpolo

...erm, thank you?