A better political system?

[nitePhyyre]

I play a lot of god-mode games, like 4X, rts, civilzation type games. In the majority of games political systems are nothing more than a checkbox that gives you +x to y stat and -i to j stat. Are there any games along these lines that have a deeper/more realistic/more involved/better system than this?

If you don't know of any games like that, how would you design one?

[Obby]

I thought the Civ series had its political system choices allow/disallow the construction of certain units and/or buildings, as well as access/restriction to certain abilities and +/- friendship with other civilizations depending on their political choices? At least, Civ 4 did. I haven't played Civ 5 and it's been so long since I played Civ 3 I can't remember.

As for alternatives to that system... I'm not exactly the most imaginative person, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a more in depth political system than Civ 4 had. It seems pretty robust to me. At least, much more complicated than "+x to stat and -i to j stat".

[Windowlicker]

I'm not really sure what you're after.. in most games that would let you use some sort of political system, +/- to some stat is really the only thing that can change, eh? Tropico has a.. reasonable system, I think. You can issue various edicts that will change the state of the island, your population's happiness and your relationship with foreign powers. Getting friendly with America will force out Russia, and so on. But again, these are still all just modifiers to some number that the game's running on.
I don't know how a "better" (does this mean more realistic? I'm not sure) system would fit into a game - I can only imagine that in order to do this right, it would have to be its own game. But, who wants that? Just make a career of it.

[SecondTalon]

Given there are people out there who run flight sims and operate as control tower personnel..... yes, there is a market for an in-depth political systems in a game.

I'm just not sure if any 4X games have it, mostly as they're concerned with balancing inherent bonuses and penalties, research costs and unit balance. It's just easier on them to make Democracy +2 to Research and Communism +2 to Industry.

We could discuss the political ramifications of being a Military Despot surrounded by Representative Republics, but.. frankly.. if you look at Real Life, it's less to do with what your political system is, and more to do with who's got the most Power and which nations are friendly towards them. So we're still back to Democracy +2 Research Communism +2 Industry and political relationships with other powers being... Diplomacy.

So I suppose my last question to nitePhyyre is - does it have to be a 4X game, or would you also accept other games as well? I'm thinking of the one game who's name escapes me at the moment.. where you played someone starting a group to overthrow the current government, and you had to compete with other revolutionary groups and, once power was seized, go from there.

[Xanthir]

I play a lot of god-mode games, like 4X, rts, civilzation type games. In the majority of games political systems are nothing more than a checkbox that gives you +x to y stat and -i to j stat. Are there any games along these lines that have a deeper/more realistic/more involved/better system than this?

If you don't know of any games like that, how would you design one?

It appears that one of your beefs is that government is a choice made by you, the player. Some games do address this somewhat. For example, in GalCiv2, there are several parties of government. You (the space dictator, I guess?) get to back one party or another, but the final choice of which party is in power is made by the "people" (different parties get votes based on how various factors of your civ and the universe at large are doing). If your party wins, yay! You get nice bonuses for controlling the legislative branch, which differ based on the party. If they lose, you get minuses for a while (or maybe just no/smaller bonuses? I forget). The Galactic Senate or whatever is actually half-interesting, too - it really is useful to vote against "good" things if you wouldn't benefit from them, just to hurt another civilization (frex, if you haven't researched much in trade, voting to allow extra trade routes is just giving the trade-happy civs free money).

I've given some thought to a 4x game where your manual control over production is literally the State controlling production. As such, depending on your government type, you only actually control a variable fraction of your city/world's production, with the rest of the production determined by the "free market". Further, the free market is more efficient than you, so it gets production bonuses. Using very free governments gives you a much higher total production, but you have much less control over where it goes - the city may decide it wants to build new entertainment structures instead of tanks, while you're trying to gear up for a war. It's then a metagame to try and influence the market to do what you want. Or you can just nationalize everything and control it directly, if you're willing to accept the loss of the market's production bonus.


On a separate thread, I enjoy games where the political choice has noticeable effects, rather than just being a boring stat bonus. For example, in Alpha Centauri the government choices are all stat bonuses, but the stats *matter* - having a high Planet score, for example, meant it was very effective for you to go "farm" your military by capturing mindworms, which is a lot different than building units yourself. Another example of this is the Civ4 mod "Fall From Heaven 2", where the politics and religion you choose has a pretty huge effect on the way the game is played. Going Ashen Veil means you get demons and start corrupting the land, going Council of Esus means you're probably going to play a sneaky game with invisible and "neutral" troops galore. Choosing Fellowship of Leaves for religion and Guardian of Nature for Economy means you're going to want dense forests everywhere.

[Gelsamel]

I'd love a game that, rather than simply having in depth politics, communicates those politics in a believable and narrative based way. I'd like a game of realistic small scale politics with RPG mechanics where the changes you make actually change what is happening in the villiages and what the peasants say to you and what the other nobles think of you etc. None of this number database stuff that you get in Europa Universalis etc.

[nitePhyyre]

So I suppose my last question to nitePhyyre is - does it have to be a 4X game, or would you also accept other games as well? I'm thinking of the one game who's name escapes me at the moment.. where you played someone starting a group to overthrow the current government, and you had to compete with other revolutionary groups and, once power was seized, go from there.

No, it wouldn't have to be a 4x game. It is just that they are what made me notice that I wanted something more elaborate.

I'm not really sure what you're after.. in most games that would let you use some sort of political system, +/- to some stat is really the only thing that can change, eh?

I guess my main complaint is that the +/- are set. You pick Communism, you get +2 production / -2 morale, you pick Democracy you get +2 morale / -2 exploration, you pick Republicanism you get +2 exploration / -2 production. Well, what if i want +2 production / +2 exploration / -4 morale? Upon further reflection, SimCity is on the right track, you get control of actual ordinances and by-laws. The problem with simcity is that there are only a dozen or so options, and they don't really have that much of an effect. You can't make any drastic changes.

I want fine grain control of options that can make drastic changes.

I've given some thought to a 4x game where your manual control over production is literally the State controlling production. As such, depending on your government type, you only actually control a variable fraction of your city/world's production, with the rest of the production determined by the "free market". Further, the free market is more efficient than you, so it gets production bonuses. Using very free governments gives you a much higher total production, but you have much less control over where it goes - the city may decide it wants to build new entertainment structures instead of tanks, while you're trying to gear up for a war. It's then a metagame to try and influence the market to do what you want. Or you can just nationalize everything and control it directly, if you're willing to accept the loss of the market's production bonus.

I've considered something similar. Only thing is, I wouldn't set the market being more efficient than the player in stone. Give them both equal opportunity, but the more control the State takes over, the more micro-managing of the economy the player would have to do. Question is, what kind of interface would work for this? And, the economy is only 1 side of politics. How would brutal oppression or benevolence be handled?

I'll have to take a look at the games and mods you guys have mentioned.