Civilization 5!!!

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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby hatten » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:03 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Another idea I've had is to create a sphere out of hexagons, then project these hexagons onto a plane. The hexagons near the poles would be bigger, those near the equator would be the normal size. This would then give the usual Mercator business.

Or why not skip the part about projecting them onto a plane? Why do you have to play on a flat map? You can just as well walk around on a sphere, though it might be a too big change to simply mod it in. You do have to project the part of the sphere you're currently viewing onto a plane, unless you have a 3D monitor, so the hexagons would be slighly different size/shape, but it will still look good even if you scroll to the north/south pole, which most other ways won't allow.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Yakk » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:26 pm UTC

You cannot make a sphere out of hexagons.

The 20-sided die, each side surfaced with hexagons, the corners being pentagons, should give a very beautiful looking map. For a bit better, project the 20-sided figure back onto a sphere for terrain purposes. There are the vertex-anomalies (the pentagon tiles) that look sort of strange.

If you want it to look even better, do away with uniform "square" size and shape. Have the "squares" vary with the underlying terrain, and be adjacent to a non-uniform number of adjacent squares. This removes the vertex-anomalies by spreading it out uniformly over the surface of the globe.
Thinking about social policies, I wonder if the tech system from Civilization (the board game (the first one)) would be more appropriate than a tree. As I recall, there weren't any prerequisites- you could buy the most expensive tech first- but each tech gave you discounts on some other techs. So most of the time you would buy the cheap ones and then the expensive ones. The main change I expect would happen with that is that people would just save up for the best policies and get them as soon as they're unlocked, ignoring the precursors- if I can get Communism at the cost of 3 normal policies instead of 4, that's pure profit for an ICS strategy. So, if something like that were implemented it would need other changes too.

You had limits to how much you could bank. The stuff you used to buy the policies (your cards and banked troops) had limits and opportunity costs and risks.

So while in general you tried to buy the most expensive policy you could, the lower-end ones where purchased because you had no choice. They also helped ramp up your economy so you had the "bank capacity" to actually buy the more expensive ones.
I also wonder about making some base terrain tiles that are superior to the grassland/plains/hill trio. This may just be because I do a lot of playing on real Earth maps, where someone like Arabia has room for 1-2 cities and someone like Russia has room for 20 (yay Mercator projection), and appear to have a fetish for single-city nations (Although England or Japan, with 2-3 cities connected by railroad, are also pretty fun). That way you could have someplace very player dense- like northwest Europe, the Middle East, and probably Southeast Asia- that's about as resource dense as wide swaths of Russia, India, and Africa. Africa already fits that model somewhat, with vast deserts (that also occupy central Asia), but that doesn't fix it entirely.

Note that non-uniform tile size lets you do this continuously. Each city location has access to a different number of tiles.

If you aren't careful, complexity blows up -- but ignoring that...

Each tile has a worker efficiency, worker capacity, movement cost, and defence bonus value.

Improvements and technologies can boost both the efficiency and capacity of a given tile.

Toss in a distance-to-city efficiency loss, which goes down with transportation technology, and you could have lots of fun.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Vaniver » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:48 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:These are both interesting ideas. Adding pentagons would make unit movement different, but probably wouldn't matter that much. Argon's idea would make a good-looking map, but would surely cause a problem for Magellan! How would you get tiles to match up at the sides of the map?

Another idea I've had is to create a sphere out of hexagons, then project these hexagons onto a plane. The hexagons near the poles would be bigger, those near the equator would be the normal size. This would then give the usual Mercator business.
You need a few pentagons to make them all fit together. Varying the sizes gives you the ability to make a bulging cylinder, but not poles.

Yakk wrote:If you want it to look even better, do away with uniform "square" size and shape. Have the "squares" vary with the underlying terrain, and be adjacent to a non-uniform number of adjacent squares.
Tempting, but it could be terribly messy. If you want people to be able to micromanage it, having a relatively standard quantized system seems like a good plan.

Yakk wrote:Toss in a distance-to-city efficiency loss, which goes down with transportation technology, and you could have lots of fun.
I think the thing I'd like most is a better infrastructure system. At the moment there's only gold generation, and the kinds of connections are just "coastal", "attached by road", and "attached by railroad," and it's somewhat realistic in that roads cost you per length and cities give you value according to population (so tiny cities far away aren't profitable to connect).

But something like MoO2's freighters or SMAC's supply crawlers would be awesome. Food and population, at least, should be transferable from place to place. Using happiness or gold production to suck food surplus or people in from other regions (especially other player's cities) would be interesting.


Unrelated idea: the University lets you monkey around with hex yields. You could use the same mechanic with the palace, or other national wonders, to give the capital a boost regardless of where it is. (Imagine if Ironworks were +1 production for all squares, and then combine that with golden age.)
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Yakk » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:00 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Yakk wrote:If you want it to look even better, do away with uniform "square" size and shape. Have the "squares" vary with the underlying terrain, and be adjacent to a non-uniform number of adjacent squares.
Tempting, but it could be terribly messy. If you want people to be able to micromanage it, having a relatively standard quantized system seems like a good plan.

Generally, pouring people into the "most efficient" zone is best until it hits capacity.

All this does is boost granularity. You can have a square that is "70%" of a real square in size.

If you want non-uniform tile size/shape, you probably want something like this.
Yakk wrote:Toss in a distance-to-city efficiency loss, which goes down with transportation technology, and you could have lots of fun.
I think the thing I'd like most is a better infrastructure system. At the moment there's only gold generation, and the kinds of connections are just "coastal", "attached by road", and "attached by railroad," and it's somewhat realistic in that roads cost you per length and cities give you value according to population (so tiny cities far away aren't profitable to connect).

But something like MoO2's freighters or SMAC's supply crawlers would be awesome. Food and population, at least, should be transferable from place to place. Using happiness or gold production to suck food surplus or people in from other regions (especially other player's cities) would be interesting.

Naw, I don't want micro-management trade.

More global pools, however, would be interesting.

Having excess food go into your imperial pool, with an efficiency that starts out low and grows with technology, and have it waste away at a high rate initially (which then falls), and require trade network connection to have access to the food...

This can also be improved with direct trade connections. If one city wants food, and the other has excess, it will be shipped locally...

Of course, this quickly blows up into an incomputable mess to find the optimal food shipments. Hence the simplification of an imperial pool.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby iop » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:08 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:But something like MoO2's freighters or SMAC's supply crawlers would be awesome. Food and population, at least, should be transferable from place to place. Using happiness or gold production to suck food surplus or people in from other regions (especially other player's cities) would be interesting.

There is the Emigration Mod that makes people leave when the empire isn't happy. I'm sure it could be quite easily adapted to create migration due to a strong gradient in happiness or gold production (though in the latter case, gold production should go down the bigger the city).
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby The Utilitarian » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:01 am UTC

In regard to the improved millitary AI: I once went to war with Greece and had them field, I kid you not, nothing but an endless army of anti-aircraft guns. The just kept making more and more of them and zerging me (ineffectually) with them. The kicker is I had zero aircraft! Not a single flying unit of any kind. I was simply baffled.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby ArgonV » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:19 pm UTC

I just had a big war in the west against Germany, who kept sending Landsknechten towards my legion of Musketeers. After that, Russia came along in the south and fielded swordsmen against the same musketeers... :roll: I took two cities from both of them and soon thereafter I got two profitable peace treaties. And all the while, I was going for a science victory!
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:49 pm UTC

I find that on large maps the AI over-expands and then can't afford a large enough military for the size of empire it has.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:44 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I find that on large maps the AI over-expands and then can't afford a large enough military for the size of empire it has.

I'm currently playing on a large (terra-style) map. I upped the number of civilizations by 2-4, and maxed out the number of minor civilizations, to make the map "more crowded".

The goal is to have most of the old world claimed, making the new world a tempting treat, and (through mutual pressure) prevent empires from over-growing (even accidentally).

As yet, there is an Indian empire that is twice the average size, and fielding riflemen against longbows... but things haven't gone pear-shaped. And as I'm still pretty poor at civ5, I am fielding a small army (but, because of OUPT, I can hold a narrow front against superior forces -- so long as I don't get in a war with someone with a wide front with me, I'm good!)
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:53 pm UTC

Actually, in my first game on the latest version (which is... two patches since I made that post?) the AI civs quite happily remained the size that fit them. The two powers on a continent couldn't win their war with each other though.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby thecommabandit » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:16 pm UTC

I completed my very first game a couple of days ago and the AI felt a little... off. By the end of the game everyone except me was settling cities like mad to grab up land. I think India had like twenty or thirty. Though I did decrease the number of civs and city states for the map size. But far worse was the fact that everyone kept denouncing me for no reason. I admit that the genocide of the Mongols was a bit harsh, but I slapped America for starting that war with me and they backed off. Everyone else didn't give a damn but by the time I start expanding properly people are denouncing me left right and centre, including the Iroquois and Chinese who were on a different isolated continent who I never so much as looked at unless it was for trade or research agreements. Then when I started the Apollo Program everyone declared war on me. Even the Iroquois and Chinese. And yet despite all this bravado, they have no military and I steamroll everyone I can get to, even while fighting on three fronts at once and surrounded by India and Siam.

The AI seems a bit borked in that it's biased towards war and hating everyone but doesn't really back it up with military prowess. The landgrabbing was probably a result of under-population of the continents.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:17 am UTC

The AI doesn't just react based on real-world style politics, it also reacts on game winning terms. If you grow too powerful, everyone hates you (actually, think of the US...), same with space tech.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Deva » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:51 am UTC

What difficulty are you playing on? Storms my borders with an initial wave of eight units on Difficulty Three upon declaration (a decently sized army for five cities per civilization (or less)). Assaulted me like this on turn sixty-five on Difficulty Four (accurate within two turns). Demolished me.

Finds that sharing a border is a countdown to hate. Not always, but usually. Was friends with France once. Aided them in a war. Traded with them. Probably made a declaration of friendship too. Captured a city between my civilization and France (from the aforementioned joint war). Denounced me almost instantly.

Accused me of warmongering in a separate game. Declared war once. Spent the time beforehand defending against actual warmongers. Attacked me two or three times. Declined several offers of war too. Occurred on the other continent as well. Won through Domination. Never intends to win through military.

Recommends an Archipelago map if you desire peace. Only tried it once, but no wars broke out. Does not recall being denounced. See for yourself if my experience was a fluke. May have simply bypassed my early, defenseless era or something.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Xanthir » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:03 am UTC

[quote=Deva]stuff[/quote]
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Deva » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:08 pm UTC

Is. Howl at me through private messages for further comments.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby thecommabandit » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:53 pm UTC

Deva wrote:[I find] that sharing a border is a countdown to hate. Not always, but usually.

Seems like it. Just finished a game as England on an archipelago map. I shared the biggest island in the world with the Aztecs and they declared war on me pretty swiftly. The Iroquois and Germany were both pretty good and far away and we had a mega-alliance going with Persia helping a little bit. Then we went to war against Russia after they started the space program (call me a hypocrite). Greece didn't like me but even after they established a colony on one of my colony islands and threatened me for co-operating with Hiawatha, they never actually went to war. China just sat grumpily in the middle of the world scowling at Germany and Russia.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:43 pm UTC

I wanted to necrofy this because I started playing over the holidays when I was home with my family and had nothing better to do. They seem to have changed some things. The AI seems better and upgrading artillery to rocket artillery removes the set up requirement, for example. I was looking into the earlier mods and this seems to fix a lot of the things they did, anyone know if they're still relevant/useful? Can someone recommend some other mods? One that allows upgrading of cavalry after they become irrelevant? Something that keeps crossbowman as a ranged unit so my army doesn't completely change when I get riflemen (I saw a mod that made them "snipers" but it didn't work very well).

Also, I'd love to find a mod that changes the game's pacing. Something that slows down research but doesn't slow down production (at least not of units), that way you remain at earlier stages in the game longer. I like the idea of being able to have massive battles between warriors and archers, where as it is now there never seems to be any use for more than a few units at that stage because you'll be on to higher tech stuff so fast.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby eculc » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:16 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:I wanted to necrofy this because I started playing over the holidays when I was home with my family and had nothing better to do. They seem to have changed some things. The AI seems better and upgrading artillery to rocket artillery removes the set up requirement, for example. I was looking into the earlier mods and this seems to fix a lot of the things they did, anyone know if they're still relevant/useful? Can someone recommend some other mods? One that allows upgrading of cavalry after they become irrelevant? Something that keeps crossbowman as a ranged unit so my army doesn't completely change when I get riflemen (I saw a mod that made them "snipers" but it didn't work very well).

Also, I'd love to find a mod that changes the game's pacing. Something that slows down research but doesn't slow down production (at least not of units), that way you remain at earlier stages in the game longer. I like the idea of being able to have massive battles between warriors and archers, where as it is now there never seems to be any use for more than a few units at that stage because you'll be on to higher tech stuff so fast.


I believe this is the mod you want. it extends research times, and slightly decreases production time for buildings and units. also a few other, smaller changes, but that is the biggest part of it.

the only thing I''m looking for in a mod? something to mimic the "future era" from Civ IV's "Beyond the sword" expansion. I liked having shield generators and armies of clones to protect myself.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:10 pm UTC

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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:18 pm UTC



The religion part is intriguing. I wonder if they will include religious victory a la cultural or scientific? Or maybe it will be like diplomatic if you get a majority of the world (city-states included) to convert?
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:23 pm UTC

I think it would be more balanced if it were like diplomatic - and it would add an interesting extra aspect to diplomacy.

The demands to conquer/free religious city states would be a nice way of modelling some religious conflicts.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby An Enraged Platypus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:02 pm UTC

It will be interesting to see how they model the 'evolution' of religions. Will it be a tree like tech (or lots of little trees like culture), or will you have freer reign? I hope so, because it seems a bit off to insist that you go from having a pantheon to monotheism (which is the impression I got from that small snippet). It's unlikely this will happen, but it would be nice if you could have a religion based on noumena like pre-buddhism Shinto instead of being limited to the precise flavour and number of anthromorphic deities in your canon.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:12 pm UTC

Going from a very loose pantheon, to a tightened up pantheon, to something else is a rather widespread practice though.

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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Coin » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:39 pm UTC

Is that from in game?
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:43 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure it is in-game. And the dove is at least a symbol that links Greek, Roman and Christian symbolism, possibly others. I can't really think of a better one.

I'm definitely buying this and then becoming an amazing church + bureaucracy Byzantine Empire.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Xanthir » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:14 pm UTC

Ooh, very nice. Looks like they learned some nice lessons from the various decent religion mods for Civ 4, and make them almost completely mix-and-match. You still get a bit of real-world connection in there by choosing a "core" religion that gives you one ability, but get to customize it substantially otherwise.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby ElWanderer » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:30 pm UTC

I'd stopped playing Civ 5 as I was fed up with it, but this expansion is quite intriguing.

Was it 13 new units, they say they're adding? I ought to see if there is a list anywhere, as it's possible most of those will just be unique units associated with the new civs.

EDIT: reading the blog on my phone, it's actually 27 new units, of which 9 are probably new unique units as they're adding 9 civs. I wonder what they will add.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:42 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:You still get a bit of real-world connection in there by choosing a "core" religion that gives you one ability, but get to customize it substantially otherwise.
Well, and the fact that local interpretations and traditions in a religion can vary a lot.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Vaniver » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:20 pm UTC

Did they mention the core ability anywhere, or do you think you can pick all of them? I would be surprised if the ability they picked for Christianity were idol worship, for example.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm UTC

I think the core belief might be chosen before you even found any of the religions? Reference has been made to this on the Gamespot coverage of the expansion.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Xanthir » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:20 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I think the core belief might be chosen before you even found any of the religions? Reference has been made to this on the Gamespot coverage of the expansion.

Oh, I get it. So it probably works like this:

  • You start with a cultural belief, something that stays with your culture regardless of what religion you are. This may be attached to the civ, or it may just be an choice made when you research the first tech in the religion line. (In Civ 4, this would be Mysticism.)
  • The founder of a religion gets to set a founder belief, which is permanently attached to that religion for the rest of the game. If anyone else adopts your religion, they automatically get whatever the founder selected.
  • When you follow a religion, you get to customize it with a follower belief, which is local to your civ.
  • Later techs give you a second follower belief, and an enhancer belief, whatever that is. Presumably these are all local to your civ as well.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby bigglesworth » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:41 am UTC

That seems a logical summation of the information thus far, yes.

As a simulator of real-world religions, this would seem to make it far superior to that of Civ4. After all, a Greek Orthodox fisherman praying for the intercession of one of the Saints of fishermen is not so different to an Ancient Greek hoping for Poseidon to be merciful.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Xanthir » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:55 am UTC

Yeah, Civ 4's religion system was basically "everyone is buddhist or hindu, depending on which one was discovered closer to you", with a very occasional christianity when someone's both somewhat isolated and got beat to the other two religions, and rare splashes of the other religions in a single civ.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Diadem » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:13 am UTC

I bought civ5 the day it came out, and was hugely disappointed. The game was extremely buggy, and hogged resources so bad it became unplayable even in 2D halfway through a game.

I'm still kinda curious about it though. The game did have potential. I assume most of the major issues have been fixed by now. How playable is the game these days?
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby ElWanderer » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:51 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm still kinda curious about it though. The game did have potential. I assume most of the major issues have been fixed by now. How playable is the game these days?


I've not noticed any performance increases, such that I was still playing in strategic view (2D mode) up until Christmas, when I stopped playing. Weirdly, the demo worked fine (well, other than when it was demonstrating the gameplay issues such as AI civs sending out unescorted settlers, the inability to group units etc.) and I played that with the 3D graphics turned on.

They have made lots of changes - social policies have changed so many times it's been hard to keep track, for example. There have definitely been improvements, but to my mind diplomacy is still insane, the 1-unit-per-tile rule still causes massive traffic jams, the AI is still poor at handling units because of this and the research agreement mechanic is still somewhat broken. I think they mentioned better diplomacy and AI combat ability being part of the expansion.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby Diadem » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:01 am UTC

I liked the 1 unit per tile rule. Made for very interesting strategy. Though the AI did indeed suffer, which is a problem.

For me the real problem was the terrible terrible performance, and related bugs. I kept crashing to the desktop after a few hours. I didn't see too much from the gameplay. City states seemed a bit broken from what I could gather.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby ElWanderer » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:09 am UTC

Diadem wrote:I liked the 1 unit per tile rule. Made for very interesting strategy. Though the AI did indeed suffer, which is a problem.

For me the real problem was the terrible terrible performance, and related bugs. I kept crashing to the desktop after a few hours. I didn't see too much from the gameplay. City states seemed a bit broken from what I could gather.

How long since you last tried it? Although the game wasn't very fast, I don't remember any crashes (I played a little in Jan 2011, then fairly solidly Mar-Dec 2011 on two different computers, albeit both had the same, old graphics card). The crashing bugs should all have been caught and sorted out by now.

Argh, more bits of the game that I just didn't like keep flowing back into my head. To keep it positive, at least with 1 unit per tile (1UPT) they tried doing something different. I really don't like the implementation, though.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:44 pm UTC

Xanthir wrote:Yeah, Civ 4's religion system was basically "everyone is buddhist or hindu, depending on which one was discovered closer to you", with a very occasional christianity when someone's both somewhat isolated and got beat to the other two religions, and rare splashes of the other religions in a single civ.


Most of my Civ4 games (now, I'm not a terribly good player) ended up with Confucianism being the major religion. Because that was the one that I was (almost) always able to found myself, and never wanted to give the other players holy city benefits. I'd then decide who to kill and who to be friends with based largely on how willing they were to convert to Confucianism.
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby ElWanderer » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:07 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Xanthir wrote:Yeah, Civ 4's religion system was basically "everyone is buddhist or hindu, depending on which one was discovered closer to you", with a very occasional christianity when someone's both somewhat isolated and got beat to the other two religions, and rare splashes of the other religions in a single civ.

Most of my Civ4 games (now, I'm not a terribly good player) ended up with Confucianism being the major religion. Because that was the one that I was (almost) always able to found myself, and never wanted to give the other players holy city benefits. I'd then decide who to kill and who to be friends with based largely on how willing they were to convert to Confucianism.

Heh, yeah. In almost every game I seemed to build the Oracle, choose Code of Laws as the free tech and end up with Confucianism. I'd often miss out on the three early religions, but try to grab Taoism and Christianity before the AI. I read somewhere that the AI is more likely to go for a tech if the associated religion is still available to be founded, so I hoped that getting Christianity first would reduce the number of AIs researching Theology then trying to build the Apostolic Palace and then annoying me intensely. I've been known to swap religion just before building the Palace, so it would be associated with an unpopular religion.

The map type has a big effect on religion spread - continents or maps with isolated starts tend to avoid everyone being Buddhist or Hindu. If everyone starts on the same landmass then yeah, the first religions have a great chance of getting a monopoly before the other have been founded. I never really saw this as a bad thing, but it certainly doesn't produce historically-accurate results ;)

There is an advanced option that lets the founder pick which religion (of those left available) they've founded - confused me no end when an AI civ founded Confucianism in 3240 BC (this was playing with a saved game someone had set-up, I hadn't chosen the option myself).
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Re: Civilization 5!!!

Postby carldavis » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:03 pm UTC

Whoa, they bumped up the number of religions too... I'm pretty sure I see Shintoism. I gotta say though, that I personally hope that religion doesn't play as huge of an impact in diplomacy as in Civ4.
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